That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that doesn't apply to Arabs in Cuba, Afghanistan and Iraq, you mean? That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that wasn't enough to prevent this man from being beaten to death by American soldiers in American custody?
That's exactly the point. American values aren't supposed to apply to Americans alone.
That picture shows a dead man, but does not point to how he died. If you think that flashing a picture of a dead arab is going to make anybody join AQ with you, you are fooling yourself.
I know that if this man died at the hands of his captors and through torture those responsible will be punished quickly and appropriately.
However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it. This is what the old regime did:
More than 300,000. That is roughly the population of Tampa Florida!
Unlike the military that murdered innocent civilians at Halabja and all over Iraq, with blessing of their president and at will, the soldiers that committed these comparably minor offenses will be held to task, you can bet on it.
Because these little quotes show your true color. You said these thing so don't bitch when people bring them up again. If you don't like being parsed then make sure you're not saying crazy shit like "However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it."
[edit]
Or, "Maybe I am just oversimplifying here, but I would rather face a broom stick up my ass over the threat of my whole family and all of their friend being wiped out, or getting dipped it flesh eating acid or any of the other sick torture methods that SH and Co. had in store which inevitably ended in death."
Because these little quotes show your true color. You said these thing so don't bitch when people bring them up again. If you don't like being parsed then make sure your not saying crazy shit like "However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it."
I put a little bit of thought into the word I post. These are complicated issues with questions and answers that require more than one word either way.
I think that my entire post points out what my true colors are. I think this matter should be looked at in a balanced manner and sorted through, considering all sides.
The thing that really makes me wonder about motivations here is that there is no real outcry over killing and torture and needless deaths that happen at the hands of any other government but the US.
I put a little bit of thought into the word I post. These are complicated issues with questions and answers that require more than one word either way.
I think that my entire post points out what my true colors are. I think this matter should be looked at in a balanced manner and sorted through, considering all sides.
The thing that really makes me wonder about motivations here is that there is no real outcry over killing and torture and needless deaths that happen at the hands of any other government but the US.
It seems a little off kilter, no?
This thread is about OUR actions with respect to Iraqi prisoners. If you want to discuss the responses and actions of other governments then I suggest you start another thread.
I will say this again. If you make crazy statements then don't bitch when these crazy statements are rehashed. These little blurbs hidden in your well thought out post are very telling like it our not. When you make statements like "...maybe he deserved it." then you are showing your true colors regardless of the rest of the post. We are Americans. We don't torture (capital punishment aside) inmates here or abroad whether they deserved it or not.
If you say crazy shit then don't bitch when it is brought up again. Don't complain about motives because you seem to be the only olne defending these actions which raises questions about your motives.
If you make statements about broomsticks in the ass being preferred as a means of lessening the weight of this atrocity then expect to be parsed.
It isn't difficult to find evidence of systematic maltreatment of Iraqi prisoners and it's not difficult to see how we ended up where we have.
Incidentally, just for our amusement, when New posted it, trumptman replied:
Quote:
Well my comment is that he had put on this hood of some short and is free to take it off. If you look it doesn't look as if he hands are tied, cuffed, or secured in some manner.
pscates, ironically enough, posted this:
Quote:
Well, compared to how OUR POWs are being treated, we actually are, aren't we?
You don't actually think/believe U.S. soldiers are torturing, raping and mutilating the Iraqi soldiers we're holding? You don't, do you?
One mrmister said this:
Quote:
I still don't know about the picture: did he hood himself? What's going on? In the lack of other data, I suspect maybe he's tired of reporters takling his picture.
More than 300,000. That is roughly the population of Tampa Florida!
This is why the old regime was called a dictatorship and was internationally isolated, invaded, and members of all ranks captured or shot on sight.
So, do you or don't you believe that constitutional democracies are free to "get away" with war crimes as long as the body count stays reasonably low or do you believe that war crimes need to be punished without making silly excuses?
It isn't difficult to find evidence of systematic maltreatment of Iraqi prisoners and it's not difficult to see how we ended up where we have.
Incidentally, just for our amusement, when New posted it, trumptman replied:
Quote:
Well my comment is that he had put on this hood of some short and is free to take it off. If you look it doesn't look as if he hands are tied, cuffed, or secured in some manner.
pscates, ironically enough, posted this:
Quote:
Well, compared to how OUR POWs are being treated, we actually are, aren't we?
You don't actually think/believe U.S. soldiers are torturing, raping and mutilating the Iraqi soldiers we're holding? You don't, do you
One mrmister said this:
Quote:
I still don't know about the picture: did he hood himself? What's going on? In the lack of other data, I suspect maybe he's tired of reporters takling his picture
Aww.
Amazing, too, that after everything that's happened we still see posts like these on a daily basis.
That picture shows a dead man, but does not point to how he died. If you think that flashing a picture of a dead arab is going to make anybody join AQ with you, you are fooling yourself.
I know that if this man died at the hands of his captors and through torture those responsible will be punished quickly and appropriately.
Get yourself up to speed
You do realize that there is a mountain of info concerning Abu-Ghraib, don't you?
Here is just one passage from the most famous of the articles (do you know where to find it?) written on these prisoners:
Quote:
In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called ?O.G.A.,? or other government agencies?that is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employees?was brought to his unit for questioning. ?They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away.? The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prison?s inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, ?and therefore never had a number.?
That's from Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Frederick's diary.
From an ABC story:
Quote:
The photographs show a 52-year-old former Baath Party official, Nadem Sadoon Hatab, who died at the detention center last June after a three-day period in which he was allegedly subjected to beatings and karate kicks to the chest and left to die naked in his own feces.
Abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Camp White Horse was allegedly carried out by U.S. Marine reservists. The accused reservists have told their lawyers they were given orders to "soften up" the men in their custody for interrogation by what were known as human exploitation teams from military intelligence.
...
According to testimony in the case, Hatab was targeted for especially harsh treatment because he was believed to be in possession of Jessica Lynch's 507th Army Battalion weapon and suspected of involvement in the ambush of her unit.
There is a ton of info out there about all of this. We are reading it. I suggest you do yourself a favor and read it as well before coming in here making clearly uninformed comments.
However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it.
Any maybe he deserved to have had a trial before he was executed.
Maybe he was. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was a torturer and maybe he was completely, spotlessly innocent. We won't get the chance to find out now, will we?
Maybe he shouldn't have been beaten to death in American custody without a trial.
Maybe American soldiers shouldn't be beating Iraqi prisoners to death without first establishing their guilt in a fair and impartial way.
Maybe you think it's OK for American soldiers to beat an Iraqi man to death in custody because "he might have deserved it." Or because it's OK: you have the greatest Constitution in the world.
Maybe "he might have deserved it" is a defence that will hold up in court in America.
"Mr Sabeh, do you deny that you killed Johnny MacTavish, a perfect stranger to you, on the night in question?
"No, your honour, I don't. But he might have deserved it."
Guys you're parsing again. NaplesX is simply trying to say the US is great, can do no wrong, don't question the war, all is right in the world, and Bush is number 1. Rember, bad things only happen to bad people. These tortured Iraqis MUST have deserved what they got so why bother investigate beyond the administrations assertions. Jeez people.
The picture of the naked Iraqi prisoner cowering in front of the guard dogs is only the first of a series. They actually let the dogs attack the man, of which there are apparently more photos. From the New Yorker article:
Quote:
One of the new photographs shows a young soldier, wearing a dark jacket over his uniform and smiling into the camera, in the corridor of the jail. In the background are two Army dog handlers, in full camouflage combat gear, restraining two German shepherds. The dogs are barking at a man who is partly obscured from the camera?s view by the smiling soldier. Another image shows that the man, an Iraqi prisoner, is naked. His hands are clasped behind his neck and he is leaning against the door to a cell, contorted with terror, as the dogs bark a few feet away. Other photographs show the dogs straining at their leashes and snarling at the prisoner. In another, taken a few minutes later, the Iraqi is lying on the ground, writhing in pain, with a soldier sitting on top of him, knee pressed to his back. Blood is streaming from the inmate?s leg. Another photograph is a closeup of the naked prisoner, from his waist to his ankles, lying on the floor. On his right thigh is what appears to be a bite or a deep scratch. There is another, larger wound on his left leg, covered in blood.
This is my first post in this thread - although I have read most of the posts along the way. This whole matter has left me so depressed and enraged that I feel I can add very little of use to the discussion here. I do thank those who have stuck with this thread and made numerous thoughtful comments.
Oh so you guys read a post thoroughly and strive to comprehend it and put it into the proper context when it agrees with you, but when it does not, screw it.
I did this little exorcize to demonstrate your own tactics and how transparent you are all being.
Comments
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that doesn't apply to Arabs in Cuba, Afghanistan and Iraq, you mean? That "innocent until proven guilty thing" that wasn't enough to prevent this man
That's exactly the point. American values aren't supposed to apply to Americans alone.
That picture shows a dead man, but does not point to how he died. If you think that flashing a picture of a dead arab is going to make anybody join AQ with you, you are fooling yourself.
I know that if this man died at the hands of his captors and through torture those responsible will be punished quickly and appropriately.
However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it. This is what the old regime did:
http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/27000.htm
http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/feat.../gallery7.html
More than 300,000. That is roughly the population of Tampa Florida!
Unlike the military that murdered innocent civilians at Halabja and all over Iraq, with blessing of their president and at will, the soldiers that committed these comparably minor offenses will be held to task, you can bet on it.
Originally posted by NaplesX
If this was a court of law, you would be shot down smartly for lack of evidence for your accusations.
Institutional?
Systematic?
The 24-page report, issued in February, concluded "persons deprived of their liberty face the risk of being subjected to a process of physical and psychological coercion, in some cases tantamount to torture, in the early stages of the internment process."
Originally posted by NaplesX
However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it.
Originally posted by bunge
Why do you parse my words from the whole post?
Insane.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Why do you parse my words from the whole post?
Insane.
Because these little quotes show your true color. You said these thing so don't bitch when people bring them up again. If you don't like being parsed then make sure you're not saying crazy shit like "However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it."
[edit]
Or, "Maybe I am just oversimplifying here, but I would rather face a broom stick up my ass over the threat of my whole family and all of their friend being wiped out, or getting dipped it flesh eating acid or any of the other sick torture methods that SH and Co. had in store which inevitably ended in death."
Originally posted by faust9
Because these little quotes show your true color. You said these thing so don't bitch when people bring them up again. If you don't like being parsed then make sure your not saying crazy shit like "However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it."
I put a little bit of thought into the word I post. These are complicated issues with questions and answers that require more than one word either way.
I think that my entire post points out what my true colors are. I think this matter should be looked at in a balanced manner and sorted through, considering all sides.
The thing that really makes me wonder about motivations here is that there is no real outcry over killing and torture and needless deaths that happen at the hands of any other government but the US.
It seems a little off kilter, no?
Originally posted by NaplesX
I put a little bit of thought into the word I post. These are complicated issues with questions and answers that require more than one word either way.
I think that my entire post points out what my true colors are. I think this matter should be looked at in a balanced manner and sorted through, considering all sides.
The thing that really makes me wonder about motivations here is that there is no real outcry over killing and torture and needless deaths that happen at the hands of any other government but the US.
It seems a little off kilter, no?
This thread is about OUR actions with respect to Iraqi prisoners. If you want to discuss the responses and actions of other governments then I suggest you start another thread.
I will say this again. If you make crazy statements then don't bitch when these crazy statements are rehashed. These little blurbs hidden in your well thought out post are very telling like it our not. When you make statements like "...maybe he deserved it." then you are showing your true colors regardless of the rest of the post. We are Americans. We don't torture (capital punishment aside) inmates here or abroad whether they deserved it or not.
If you say crazy shit then don't bitch when it is brought up again. Don't complain about motives because you seem to be the only olne defending these actions which raises questions about your motives.
If you make statements about broomsticks in the ass being preferred as a means of lessening the weight of this atrocity then expect to be parsed.
[edit]
These are your words. You said them.
It isn't difficult to find evidence of systematic maltreatment of Iraqi prisoners and it's not difficult to see how we ended up where we have.
Incidentally, just for our amusement, when New posted it, trumptman replied:
Well my comment is that he had put on this hood of some short and is free to take it off. If you look it doesn't look as if he hands are tied, cuffed, or secured in some manner.
pscates, ironically enough, posted this:
Well, compared to how OUR POWs are being treated, we actually are, aren't we?
You don't actually think/believe U.S. soldiers are torturing, raping and mutilating the Iraqi soldiers we're holding? You don't, do you?
One mrmister said this:
I still don't know about the picture: did he hood himself? What's going on? In the lack of other data, I suspect maybe he's tired of reporters takling his picture.
Aww.
Please don't link to it, though.
Originally posted by NaplesX
More than 300,000. That is roughly the population of Tampa Florida!
This is why the old regime was called a dictatorship and was internationally isolated, invaded, and members of all ranks captured or shot on sight.
So, do you or don't you believe that constitutional democracies are free to "get away" with war crimes as long as the body count stays reasonably low or do you believe that war crimes need to be punished without making silly excuses?
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
New posted this picture on January 4, 2003.
It isn't difficult to find evidence of systematic maltreatment of Iraqi prisoners and it's not difficult to see how we ended up where we have.
Incidentally, just for our amusement, when New posted it, trumptman replied:
Quote:
Well my comment is that he had put on this hood of some short and is free to take it off. If you look it doesn't look as if he hands are tied, cuffed, or secured in some manner.
pscates, ironically enough, posted this:
Well, compared to how OUR POWs are being treated, we actually are, aren't we?
You don't actually think/believe U.S. soldiers are torturing, raping and mutilating the Iraqi soldiers we're holding? You don't, do you
One mrmister said this:
I still don't know about the picture: did he hood himself? What's going on? In the lack of other data, I suspect maybe he's tired of reporters takling his picture
Aww.
Amazing, too, that after everything that's happened we still see posts like these on a daily basis.
Originally posted by NaplesX
That picture shows a dead man, but does not point to how he died. If you think that flashing a picture of a dead arab is going to make anybody join AQ with you, you are fooling yourself.
I know that if this man died at the hands of his captors and through torture those responsible will be punished quickly and appropriately.
Get yourself up to speed
You do realize that there is a mountain of info concerning Abu-Ghraib, don't you?
Here is just one passage from the most famous of the articles (do you know where to find it?) written on these prisoners:
In November, Frederick wrote, an Iraqi prisoner under the control of what the Abu Ghraib guards called ?O.G.A.,? or other government agencies?that is, the C.I.A. and its paramilitary employees?was brought to his unit for questioning. ?They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away. They put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. . . . The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away.? The dead Iraqi was never entered into the prison?s inmate-control system, Frederick recounted, ?and therefore never had a number.?
That's from Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Frederick's diary.
From an ABC story:
The photographs show a 52-year-old former Baath Party official, Nadem Sadoon Hatab, who died at the detention center last June after a three-day period in which he was allegedly subjected to beatings and karate kicks to the chest and left to die naked in his own feces.
Abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Camp White Horse was allegedly carried out by U.S. Marine reservists. The accused reservists have told their lawyers they were given orders to "soften up" the men in their custody for interrogation by what were known as human exploitation teams from military intelligence.
...
According to testimony in the case, Hatab was targeted for especially harsh treatment because he was believed to be in possession of Jessica Lynch's 507th Army Battalion weapon and suspected of involvement in the ambush of her unit.
There is a ton of info out there about all of this. We are reading it. I suggest you do yourself a favor and read it as well before coming in here making clearly uninformed comments.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Well then, if we are to go along with that, we must all be guilty by association, because of US citizenship.
Extremely tortured logic.
I didn't say we are guilty, I said that these men and women tarnished our international reputation. Yes, you do have tortured logic...
Originally posted by NaplesX
However, if he was part and parcel of the old regime, maybe he deserved it.
Any maybe he deserved to have had a trial before he was executed.
Maybe he was. Maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was a torturer and maybe he was completely, spotlessly innocent. We won't get the chance to find out now, will we?
Maybe he shouldn't have been beaten to death in American custody without a trial.
Maybe American soldiers shouldn't be beating Iraqi prisoners to death without first establishing their guilt in a fair and impartial way.
Maybe you think it's OK for American soldiers to beat an Iraqi man to death in custody because "he might have deserved it." Or because it's OK: you have the greatest Constitution in the world.
Maybe "he might have deserved it" is a defence that will hold up in court in America.
"Mr Sabeh, do you deny that you killed Johnny MacTavish, a perfect stranger to you, on the night in question?
"No, your honour, I don't. But he might have deserved it."
Originally posted by NaplesX
join AQ with you
I just noticed what you said to hassan here. If this says what I think it does, you need help.
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
being the father of a three year old girl, this picture just makes me want to cry...
One of the new photographs shows a young soldier, wearing a dark jacket over his uniform and smiling into the camera, in the corridor of the jail. In the background are two Army dog handlers, in full camouflage combat gear, restraining two German shepherds. The dogs are barking at a man who is partly obscured from the camera?s view by the smiling soldier. Another image shows that the man, an Iraqi prisoner, is naked. His hands are clasped behind his neck and he is leaning against the door to a cell, contorted with terror, as the dogs bark a few feet away. Other photographs show the dogs straining at their leashes and snarling at the prisoner. In another, taken a few minutes later, the Iraqi is lying on the ground, writhing in pain, with a soldier sitting on top of him, knee pressed to his back. Blood is streaming from the inmate?s leg. Another photograph is a closeup of the naked prisoner, from his waist to his ankles, lying on the floor. On his right thigh is what appears to be a bite or a deep scratch. There is another, larger wound on his left leg, covered in blood.
This is my first post in this thread - although I have read most of the posts along the way. This whole matter has left me so depressed and enraged that I feel I can add very little of use to the discussion here. I do thank those who have stuck with this thread and made numerous thoughtful comments.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Oh so you guys read a post thoroughly and strive to comprehend it and put it into the proper context when it agrees with you, but when it does not, screw it.
I did this little exorcize to demonstrate your own tactics and how transparent you are all being.
Live and learn.
Dude, you are fucking priceless.