Sure, but that's probably being kind to Israel. Unfortunately there is no exact analogy, but I think the premise of what I said is quite accurate.
Well, in some aspects you're probably right. The Justice Minister of Israel, Yousef Labid, Today compared the actions of israel in Rafah to the Holocaust. Haaretz link.
I really don't think anything can be likened to nazi-germany.
One should be careful not to put things out of proportion. The Nazi party seizing power in Germany was not "merely" fascist or racist, it had made a very clear determination to exterminate jews. Exterminate, not "kill if they get in the way".
There are more parallels to the arab idea of the 60s of "throwing the jews back into the sea" than the current racial segregation in Israel. However, almost all states in the region have overcome this deadly ideology and accepted the right of Israel to exist.
Unfortunately, the Israel of today has developed more and more traits of a rogue state - defying UN resolutions, amassing WoMDs, founding and funding terrorist groups (Hamas) and willfully destroying the foundations of the Palestine society.
One should be careful not to put things out of proportion. The Nazi party seizing power in Germany was not "merely" fascist or racist, it had made a very clear determination to exterminate jews. Exterminate, not "kill if they get in the way".
There are more parallels to the arab idea of the 60s of "throwing the jews back into the sea" than the current racial segregation in Israel. However, almost all states in the region have overcome this deadly ideology and accepted the right of Israel to exist.
Unfortunately, the Israel of today has developed more and more traits of a rogue state - defying UN resolutions, amassing WoMDs, founding and funding terrorist groups (Hamas) and willfully destroying the foundations of the Palestine society.
A very good post. The ideology of nazi-german was clear for all to see long before the war. But most chose to look away.
However it is, in Israel as well, important to see beyond the day to day events. And recognize that there are ideological agendas behind the current policies. Sharon has his agenda. He has formed his politics from this agenda during the last 20 years. Hamas has their agenda as well. And someone has to take action to make sure that none of these extreemist succeed.
Do you wonder the same thing when Jews are killed? I mean, there is a common sentiment in the region that Jews are animals or less. Or is that kind of attitude not wrong when it is directed at jews.
And can you the understand an Israeli soldier, whose children or relatives have been butchered, feeling the same horror and anger?
And would you then have lost all you positive words for Paletinians, given that they have targetted children?
pfflam, not to deminish your feelings over this, but you post sort of demonstrates a point. There is rightfully much grief and anger over the death of a palestinian child. Rarely do you see such an unconditional outpouring when a jew dies. A post such as your in a thread about an israeli death would have additionally contained, or been responded to with blame cast at Sharon or Israeli policy or someother way to conditionally express anger, but point the finger at the victim.
You get me wrong . . . I never have positive words for Palistinians who use suicide bombs or support their use . . . and many of them are also racists and want only to wipe out Israel. -- I know that and have said as much often.
I have stood by Israel for a long time . . . but it pains me to see her follow such a bad path . . . bowing to pressure from the ultra-right wackos in their nifty settlements is a bad idea for all involved in the region.
There are wackos on both sides: I read interviews with soldiers who talked openly about shooting kids, with very little regret (harpers about two years ago) . . . not every soldier is tearfully thinking of their little tucko back home
Just as not every bomber is lamenting their miserable ghetto lives
some actually like murder and mayhem . . .
. .but that is neither here not there . . it, unfortunately, is everywhere . . .
I guess the bulldozers aren't good enough for you?
You mean, do I think Israel's use of bulldozers to knock down houses is the same as the German's rounding up a hundreds of thousands of people and gassing them? No.
How does my statement implicate me? That's a connection I don't see how you're making. I would deny your claim, but I honestly can't see the logic behind it. If you clarify, I could either amend my original statement or counter your claim.
If the palestinians continue to indoctrinate their children and to use them as combatants, what choices does Israel have when faced with a child/teenager wearing a bomb belt? If they decide to ignore them because of their age, i guess a few more dead jews would be ok with you. The jews might have a different opinion. If they decide to stop the bomber, regardless of age, then they are babykilling monsters to you. But then thinking of jews as baby killers isn't really a new concept...just a new wrapper to the story.
You mean, do I think Israel's use of bulldozers to knock down houses is the same as the German's rounding up a hundreds of thousands of people and gassing them? No.
Weak argument. Do you think Israel killing civilians is as bad as the Nazis killing civilians? You can either answer honestly, or lie.
As I said before...I was never talking about 1 year old. You tried hard to limit the definition to 1 year olds, perhaps that makes viewing jews as baby-killers easier, but of course the reality is the children used as human bombs are usually teens or close to teenage.
Weak argument. Do you think Israel killing civilians is as bad as the Nazis killing civilians? You can either answer honestly, or lie.
If Israeli soldiers target civilians for no reason, but to kill a palestinian, obviously that is wrong and on par with a german soldier butchering a jew. Do I think civilian deaths are wrong? Yes. Do I think civilian deaths during a military operation that did not target civilians to be the same as trying to erase all Jews from all of Europe? No.
Weak argument. Do you think Israel killing civilians is as bad as the Nazis killing civilians? You can either answer honestly, or lie.
Speaking of weak arguements...do you really think the Jews today are so bumbling and incompotent, that if they trully are, as you say, the modern equivalent of Nazi German, that they haven't been able to accomplish their goal of murdering every single Palestinian? I mean, surely, this evil, powerful state has the will and the strenth, can they be so inept that they have been unable to fulfill the final solution?
As I said before...I was never talking about 1 year old. You tried hard to limit the definition to 1 year olds, perhaps that makes viewing jews as baby-killers easier, but of course the reality is the children used as human bombs are usually teens or close to teenage.
We were talking about kids that were dressed up by their parents. Read my sig.
Besides, even the Israelis try to disarm the teenagers rather than just killing them. Your 'solution' is absurd.
Speaking of weak arguements...do you really think the Jews today are so bumbling and incompotent, that if they trully are, as you say, the modern equivalent of Nazi German, that they haven't been able to accomplish their goal of murdering every single Palestinian? I mean, surely, this evil, powerful state has the will and the strenth, can they be so inept that they have been unable to fulfill the final solution?
Let's be realistic. Do the Israelis hold the same power in the world as the Nazi's did in Europe? No. An all out attack would be stopped. You know that, so why fabricate a false situation to try and defend your position? Why don't we try and be realistic instead?
If Israel opened up gas chambers they would be slaughtered by the rest of the world. So, they use other means. And their goal isn't necessarily complete genocide, but they are certainly trying to eradicate the Palestinians from the Middle East. Their methods are just as bad as the Nazis.
If Israeli soldiers target civilians for no reason, but to kill a palestinian, obviously that is wrong and on par with a german soldier butchering a jew. Do I think civilian deaths are wrong? Yes. Do I think civilian deaths during a military operation that did not target civilians to be the same as trying to erase all Jews from all of Europe? No.
You claim that the Israelis aren't targeting civilians, but you can't support that claim. As I said, the Israelis can't go on an open offensive to try and completely eradicate the Palestinians but that doesn't mean they're not targeting civilians.
The typical conservative argument is all or nothing. Because the Israelis aren't going for all, that means there's nothing. You're wrong.
We were talking about kids that were dressed up by their parents. Read my sig.
I had read you sig...and my point still stands. Do you think the 12 year old got dressed in the bomb on his own? Or do you suppose an adult was involved?
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Besides, even the Israelis try to disarm the teenagers rather than just killing them. Your 'solution' is absurd.
Absolutly they do, baby killers that they are...but if unable to do so, or in a situation where lives are in the balance, they would probably act. Though I am sure you sould still consider that murder.
Let's be realistic. Do the Israelis hold the same power in the world as the Nazi's did in Europe? No.
No, they hold more. Nuclear weapons can be a strong deterrent.
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
An all out attack would be stopped. You know that, so why fabricate a false situation to try and defend your position?
Who would stop them, if they really wanted to have a go at it? Surely, there would be a world of outcry, and rightfully so, but who would actually move to stop it? The Arab state, to whom Palestinians are little more than dirt at the worst, and pawns at the best? I guess it would be up to the US, but since they are controlled by the Jews, how could that be?
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
Why don't we try and be realistic instead?
Any time you are ready.
Quote:
Originally posted by bunge
If Israel opened up gas chambers they would be slaughtered by the rest of the world. So, they use other means. And their goal isn't necessarily complete genocide, but they are certainly trying to eradicate the Palestinians from the Middle East. Their methods are just as bad as the Nazis.
Umm...so then, so long as they don't use actual gas chambers, the world is ok with their attempt at genocide? They have truly got to be the most incoponent people on Earth to take this long to eradicate the Palestinians. I mean, there have been many other places in the world where cleansing has taken place at a much quicker pace, and the world sat idly by, while most of it happened. Surely, they could speed things up, without too many immediate repercussions. I mean, Rowanda got to a pretty advanced state of slaughter before the world acted, and that was using small arms and machettes. Your wish to link Israel to the Nazis is pretty tenuous. If they really wanted to go that route, the world has a strong precedence for ignoring situations like that, even in poorly armed countries. Israel has nukes, a great airforce and an experienced army to act as a deterrant to any immediate moves against them. They could have the whole business finished and done with before the UN even woke up to the fact.
Comments
Originally posted by New
I think a parallel with apartheid south africa is more fitting. I really don't think anything can be likened to nazi-germany.
Sure, but that's probably being kind to Israel. Unfortunately there is no exact analogy, but I think the premise of what I said is quite accurate.
Originally posted by bunge
Sure, but that's probably being kind to Israel. Unfortunately there is no exact analogy, but I think the premise of what I said is quite accurate.
Well, in some aspects you're probably right. The Justice Minister of Israel, Yousef Labid, Today compared the actions of israel in Rafah to the Holocaust. Haaretz link.
A terrorist is preparing his suicide racoon...
An anti-Semitic pony got what it deserved...
Originally posted by New
I really don't think anything can be likened to nazi-germany.
One should be careful not to put things out of proportion. The Nazi party seizing power in Germany was not "merely" fascist or racist, it had made a very clear determination to exterminate jews. Exterminate, not "kill if they get in the way".
There are more parallels to the arab idea of the 60s of "throwing the jews back into the sea" than the current racial segregation in Israel. However, almost all states in the region have overcome this deadly ideology and accepted the right of Israel to exist.
Unfortunately, the Israel of today has developed more and more traits of a rogue state - defying UN resolutions, amassing WoMDs, founding and funding terrorist groups (Hamas) and willfully destroying the foundations of the Palestine society.
Originally posted by Smircle
One should be careful not to put things out of proportion. The Nazi party seizing power in Germany was not "merely" fascist or racist, it had made a very clear determination to exterminate jews. Exterminate, not "kill if they get in the way".
There are more parallels to the arab idea of the 60s of "throwing the jews back into the sea" than the current racial segregation in Israel. However, almost all states in the region have overcome this deadly ideology and accepted the right of Israel to exist.
Unfortunately, the Israel of today has developed more and more traits of a rogue state - defying UN resolutions, amassing WoMDs, founding and funding terrorist groups (Hamas) and willfully destroying the foundations of the Palestine society.
A very good post. The ideology of nazi-german was clear for all to see long before the war. But most chose to look away.
However it is, in Israel as well, important to see beyond the day to day events. And recognize that there are ideological agendas behind the current policies. Sharon has his agenda. He has formed his politics from this agenda during the last 20 years. Hamas has their agenda as well. And someone has to take action to make sure that none of these extreemist succeed.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Do you wonder the same thing when Jews are killed? I mean, there is a common sentiment in the region that Jews are animals or less. Or is that kind of attitude not wrong when it is directed at jews.
And can you the understand an Israeli soldier, whose children or relatives have been butchered, feeling the same horror and anger?
And would you then have lost all you positive words for Paletinians, given that they have targetted children?
pfflam, not to deminish your feelings over this, but you post sort of demonstrates a point. There is rightfully much grief and anger over the death of a palestinian child. Rarely do you see such an unconditional outpouring when a jew dies. A post such as your in a thread about an israeli death would have additionally contained, or been responded to with blame cast at Sharon or Israeli policy or someother way to conditionally express anger, but point the finger at the victim.
You get me wrong . . . I never have positive words for Palistinians who use suicide bombs or support their use . . . and many of them are also racists and want only to wipe out Israel. -- I know that and have said as much often.
I have stood by Israel for a long time . . . but it pains me to see her follow such a bad path . . . bowing to pressure from the ultra-right wackos in their nifty settlements is a bad idea for all involved in the region.
There are wackos on both sides: I read interviews with soldiers who talked openly about shooting kids, with very little regret (harpers about two years ago) . . . not every soldier is tearfully thinking of their little tucko back home
Just as not every bomber is lamenting their miserable ghetto lives
some actually like murder and mayhem . . .
. .but that is neither here not there . . it, unfortunately, is everywhere . . .
Originally posted by bunge
I guess the bulldozers aren't good enough for you?
You mean, do I think Israel's use of bulldozers to knock down houses is the same as the German's rounding up a hundreds of thousands of people and gassing them? No.
Originally posted by bunge
How does my statement implicate me? That's a connection I don't see how you're making. I would deny your claim, but I honestly can't see the logic behind it. If you clarify, I could either amend my original statement or counter your claim.
If the palestinians continue to indoctrinate their children and to use them as combatants, what choices does Israel have when faced with a child/teenager wearing a bomb belt? If they decide to ignore them because of their age, i guess a few more dead jews would be ok with you. The jews might have a different opinion. If they decide to stop the bomber, regardless of age, then they are babykilling monsters to you. But then thinking of jews as baby killers isn't really a new concept...just a new wrapper to the story.
Originally posted by Tulkas
You mean, do I think Israel's use of bulldozers to knock down houses is the same as the German's rounding up a hundreds of thousands of people and gassing them? No.
Weak argument. Do you think Israel killing civilians is as bad as the Nazis killing civilians? You can either answer honestly, or lie.
Originally posted by Tulkas
If the palestinians continue to indoctrinate their children ...
We're talking about 1 year olds.
Originally posted by bunge
We're talking about 1 year olds.
As I said before...I was never talking about 1 year old. You tried hard to limit the definition to 1 year olds, perhaps that makes viewing jews as baby-killers easier, but of course the reality is the children used as human bombs are usually teens or close to teenage.
Originally posted by bunge
Weak argument. Do you think Israel killing civilians is as bad as the Nazis killing civilians? You can either answer honestly, or lie.
If Israeli soldiers target civilians for no reason, but to kill a palestinian, obviously that is wrong and on par with a german soldier butchering a jew. Do I think civilian deaths are wrong? Yes. Do I think civilian deaths during a military operation that did not target civilians to be the same as trying to erase all Jews from all of Europe? No.
Originally posted by bunge
Weak argument. Do you think Israel killing civilians is as bad as the Nazis killing civilians? You can either answer honestly, or lie.
Speaking of weak arguements...do you really think the Jews today are so bumbling and incompotent, that if they trully are, as you say, the modern equivalent of Nazi German, that they haven't been able to accomplish their goal of murdering every single Palestinian? I mean, surely, this evil, powerful state has the will and the strenth, can they be so inept that they have been unable to fulfill the final solution?
Originally posted by Tulkas
As I said before...I was never talking about 1 year old. You tried hard to limit the definition to 1 year olds, perhaps that makes viewing jews as baby-killers easier, but of course the reality is the children used as human bombs are usually teens or close to teenage.
We were talking about kids that were dressed up by their parents. Read my sig.
Besides, even the Israelis try to disarm the teenagers rather than just killing them. Your 'solution' is absurd.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Speaking of weak arguements...do you really think the Jews today are so bumbling and incompotent, that if they trully are, as you say, the modern equivalent of Nazi German, that they haven't been able to accomplish their goal of murdering every single Palestinian? I mean, surely, this evil, powerful state has the will and the strenth, can they be so inept that they have been unable to fulfill the final solution?
Let's be realistic. Do the Israelis hold the same power in the world as the Nazi's did in Europe? No. An all out attack would be stopped. You know that, so why fabricate a false situation to try and defend your position? Why don't we try and be realistic instead?
If Israel opened up gas chambers they would be slaughtered by the rest of the world. So, they use other means. And their goal isn't necessarily complete genocide, but they are certainly trying to eradicate the Palestinians from the Middle East. Their methods are just as bad as the Nazis.
Originally posted by Tulkas
If Israeli soldiers target civilians for no reason, but to kill a palestinian, obviously that is wrong and on par with a german soldier butchering a jew. Do I think civilian deaths are wrong? Yes. Do I think civilian deaths during a military operation that did not target civilians to be the same as trying to erase all Jews from all of Europe? No.
You claim that the Israelis aren't targeting civilians, but you can't support that claim. As I said, the Israelis can't go on an open offensive to try and completely eradicate the Palestinians but that doesn't mean they're not targeting civilians.
The typical conservative argument is all or nothing. Because the Israelis aren't going for all, that means there's nothing. You're wrong.
Originally posted by bunge
We were talking about kids that were dressed up by their parents. Read my sig.
I had read you sig...and my point still stands. Do you think the 12 year old got dressed in the bomb on his own? Or do you suppose an adult was involved?
Originally posted by bunge
Besides, even the Israelis try to disarm the teenagers rather than just killing them. Your 'solution' is absurd.
Absolutly they do, baby killers that they are...but if unable to do so, or in a situation where lives are in the balance, they would probably act. Though I am sure you sould still consider that murder.
Originally posted by bunge
Let's be realistic. Do the Israelis hold the same power in the world as the Nazi's did in Europe? No.
No, they hold more. Nuclear weapons can be a strong deterrent.
Originally posted by bunge
An all out attack would be stopped. You know that, so why fabricate a false situation to try and defend your position?
Who would stop them, if they really wanted to have a go at it? Surely, there would be a world of outcry, and rightfully so, but who would actually move to stop it? The Arab state, to whom Palestinians are little more than dirt at the worst, and pawns at the best? I guess it would be up to the US, but since they are controlled by the Jews, how could that be?
Originally posted by bunge
Why don't we try and be realistic instead?
Any time you are ready.
Originally posted by bunge
If Israel opened up gas chambers they would be slaughtered by the rest of the world. So, they use other means. And their goal isn't necessarily complete genocide, but they are certainly trying to eradicate the Palestinians from the Middle East. Their methods are just as bad as the Nazis.
Umm...so then, so long as they don't use actual gas chambers, the world is ok with their attempt at genocide? They have truly got to be the most incoponent people on Earth to take this long to eradicate the Palestinians. I mean, there have been many other places in the world where cleansing has taken place at a much quicker pace, and the world sat idly by, while most of it happened. Surely, they could speed things up, without too many immediate repercussions. I mean, Rowanda got to a pretty advanced state of slaughter before the world acted, and that was using small arms and machettes. Your wish to link Israel to the Nazis is pretty tenuous. If they really wanted to go that route, the world has a strong precedence for ignoring situations like that, even in poorly armed countries. Israel has nukes, a great airforce and an experienced army to act as a deterrant to any immediate moves against them. They could have the whole business finished and done with before the UN even woke up to the fact.