Israeli army helicopter kills at least 20 protestors with missiles...

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  • Reply 141 of 249
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    You claim that the Israelis aren't targeting civilians, but you can't support that claim. As I said, the Israelis can't go on an open offensive to try and completely eradicate the Palestinians but that doesn't mean they're not targeting civilians.





    I've never claimed an Israeli has never targetted a civilian, so really, why would I try to back that claim up? Do I think Israel has systematically targeted civilians in an attempt at genocide? No. As for backing this up...well, I will take SJO's take on this...it's too hard to prove a negative, so I leave it in your hands to prove Israel is attempt genocide. And please, don't go into some half assed arguement about partial genocide..that makes no sense. Back up your claim of genocide.





    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge



    The typical conservative argument is all or nothing. Because the Israelis aren't going for all, that means there's nothing. You're wrong.




    Well, genocide usually is an all or nothing preposition. So, either they are or they aren't. Or they are and are just really bad at it. Typical Liberal arguement is, if it's Israel, it is bad.
  • Reply 142 of 249
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton

    Oh, I see. They ALL wear bomb belts.





    Where in the hell did you get that? Oh you just made it up. But you are sick of the lying..hmmm...





    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton



    I'd like to see exactly how many of the Palestinian children killed by the Israeli military in the last four years have been wearing bomb belts or carrying guns. I bet you could count them on your fingers.




    Perhaps. But, does their age make the bombs somehow less deadly?



    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton



    I'm sick of the lying excuses, implying that all Palestinians are terrorists.





    You are sick of they lying?........

    I am sorry, did I say, or even imply that? No. bunge and I were discussing the the validity of targeting a person wearing a bombbelt, if that person were a child.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton



    And as to your other argument. You're saying Israel wants to (illegally) knock sown the homes these families have been living in for years, maybe decades, and those families should just get up and let Israel do it because it's dangerous? Ask yourself, "Why is Israel knocking down the homes of innocent people?" Because terrorists can hide there? If you believe that then you are a true fuckwit to the nth degree.




    Ok, again, where did i say that? Man, for someone sick of lying, you sure do a lot of it.
  • Reply 143 of 249
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton

    One more thing, and this really pisses me off.



    NO ONE is saying Jews are baby killers!!!!!!



    We are saying that people who fire missiles into crowds from the safe environs of an attack helicopter are baby killers.



    We are saying that the people who order them to do so are baby killers.



    We are saying that the people who do something or order someone to do something that they know risks killing babies, when babies are killed as a result, are baby killers.




    Really, you are the last person in the world to be arguing about putting words in people's mouths.



    As far as the term baby killers. Obviously, it is a nasty little accusation. People are pretty selective in when the use the term, however. If palestinians blow up a cafe and kids die, you don't hear that particular label. Though that meets most of your criteria for the name. However, no problem tossing it out when a child dies at the hands of an Israeli. The only other group the label is so casually thrown at, is the US GI. The use of the term against Jews, especially when their own children are killed and the term is not used against their killers, does sort of bring up the question of why. It also brings to mind the old Blood Libel, bearing similarities as it does.
  • Reply 144 of 249
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton

    Dude. Stop for a minute. Think.



    It's not the people we condemn. It's the actions we condemn.



    When a Jew kills innocent people, we condemn that Jew. When a Palestinian kills innocent people we condemn that Palestinian.





    The condemnation of the Jews sure seems to be made more easily.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton





    But when a Jew kills innocent people, you seem to object to them being condemned because you seem to think that because of the holocaust, we are all prohibited from criticizing Jews, ever.







    When an Israeli kills a palestinian, just because they are Palestinian, I will condemn it. I am sure it has happened and it is murder, plain and simple. If a palestinian innocent is killed during a military operation that did not target civilians, it is wrong, but I would hesitate to condemn Israel over it, because the are at war and in ALL wars, civilians get killed. But I differentiate between innocent civilians killed intentionally and those killed accidently. It is still wrong, but there is a difference.

    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton



    Killers cannot be excused just because they are Jews.





    Nor should they be condemned for be jews. And very few groups today (western world anyway) will be so overt as to openly say they are evil because they are jews, but find other less obvious way to spread the same hatred.

    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton



    We (Bunge, New, tonton, Harald, SJO) condemn all Palestinians who kill innocent people.





    Glad to hear it.

    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton



    Where the hell is your (Tulkas, Scott) condemnation of Jews who kill innocent people? Only one of us seems to be one-sided here.




    Right here: Jews that purposely kill innocents are murderers. They ought to be tried and hung. As I said earlier in this thread.
  • Reply 145 of 249
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    This has gotten personal, so I think this is a dead-end discussion.



    Tulkas. Please show me an incident where a 12 year old is wearing a real bomb-belt. The youngest incident I can remember was a 15 or 16 year old boy who tried to blow up israeli soldiers in the west bank, but he was stopped.
  • Reply 146 of 249
    smirclesmircle Posts: 1,035member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Tulkas

    When an Israeli kills a palestinian, just because they are Palestinian, I will condemn it. I am sure it has happened and it is murder, plain and simple.



    The case at hand is pretty clear in this regard, so do you actually condemn this or do you rather dodge the question and stick to the vague possibility of condemning some possible further murder?
  • Reply 147 of 249
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by New

    This has gotten personal, so I think this is a dead-end discussion.



    Tulkas. Please show me an incident where a 12 year old is wearing a real bomb-belt. The youngest incident I can remember was a 15 or 16 year old boy who tried to blow up israeli soldiers in the west bank, but he was stopped.




    Not really thge point is it? bunge and I were simply discussing if the use of children as combatants makes them legit targets, which it self was spawned by my response to sjo's claim that the media ignores palestinian children, which was that they ignore the children at the request of arafat, atleast to ignore when they are involved in the violence. So really, whether they are 12 or 16 is irrelacant to the discussion. bunge had wanted to limit to 1 year olds, but any child indoctrinated or taught to take their own lives in order to kill other innocents is wrong. I wish other here could admit that.



    Btw, the boy you mentioned, wasn't he also mentally challenged, with the intelligence of a 10 year old?
  • Reply 148 of 249
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Smircle

    The case at hand is pretty clear in this regard, so do you actually condemn this or do you rather dodge the question and stick to the vague possibility of condemning some possible further murder?



    If the civilians were killed as a result of a purposful attempt to kill civilians, then yes, I condemn it. If it was actual a real attempt at warning shots, with no intent, then while it was still wrong and regretful, I don't condemn Israel for it. I do realize that to others, that doesn't matter. Regardless of what happened, it is Israel's fault.
  • Reply 149 of 249
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by tonton

    Sharon: "Our intelligence states that there are armed insurgents joining in a march against our military action to curb terrorism. Go blow up a building nearby to give them a warning."

    Adviser: "There's a good risk innocent civilians might be killed if we take such action."

    Sharon: "I don't care. If they knew better they wouldn't be there. Do it anyway."



    Yep. Baby killer.




    Do you really think Sharon is that involved in each detail? Or do you think it might be more reasonable that a tank commander was order to fire a couple warning shots, and targetted what he thought was an abondoned building, the shells penetrated the buiulding and went into the crowd.



    It the tank commander purposly shot at the crowd, he should face a murder trial.
  • Reply 150 of 249
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Tulkas

    Do you really think Sharon is that involved in each detail? Or do you think it might be more reasonable that a tank commander was order to fire a couple warning shots, and targetted what he thought was an abondoned building, the shells penetrated the buiulding and went into the crowd.



    It the tank commander purposly shot at the crowd, he should face a murder trial.




    How about the one ton bomb dropped on an apparment-building? Granted there was a Hamas member inside, but so was over 10 civilians. Children.



    Sharon gave the final order fro that bombing. What is your stance on that?
  • Reply 151 of 249
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Tulkas

    Not really thge point is it? bunge and I were simply discussing if the use of children as combatants makes them legit targets, which it self was spawned by my response to sjo's claim that the media ignores palestinian children, which was that they ignore the children at the request of arafat, atleast to ignore when they are involved in the violence. So really, whether they are 12 or 16 is irrelacant to the discussion. bunge had wanted to limit to 1 year olds, but any child indoctrinated or taught to take their own lives in order to kill other innocents is wrong. I wish other here could admit that.



    Btw, the boy you mentioned, wasn't he also mentally challenged, with the intelligence of a 10 year old?




    You put forward false accusations about children being used systematically by palestinians. It's a normal right-wing israeli claim. You should back it up, but I suspect you can't.

    Palestinian extreemist are indoctrinating their children, sure. So are jewish settlers in Hebron, teaching their children to throw garbage and stones down on palestinians from their occupied buldings in the city center. That doesn't mean they are sending them out deliberately to be killed for the cause of world sympath.



    It's a racist myth that the palestinians don't love their children.



    The case with the 16 year old boy is the worst I could think of. That's why I metioned it. It's more an exception than a rule.
  • Reply 152 of 249
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    Quote:

    On May 18, 16-year-old Asma al-Mughayr and her 13-year-old brother Ahmad were killed within minutes of each other from gunshot wounds to the head, while they were on the roof of their house collecting laundry and feeding pigeons respectively.



    Haaretz link



    Amnesty has just released a report which concludes that there have been several severe breaches of international law by the IDF and that there is a "pattern of inadequate investigations or lack of investigations into unlawful killings by the Israeli army of hundreds of Palestinians, including hundreds of children.".
  • Reply 153 of 249
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    I saw the death of James Miller on TV last night. He made a film about Palestinian children; how much they hate the Israelis, how they are indoctrinated to do so, and how much the Israelis hate the Palestinians, and how they kill them every day.



    One of the most disturbing things I ever saw.



    Especially when the camera crew, with their TV hats, helmets and flag come out of a building, waving and shouting at the bulldozer. It's very quiet. One sniper bullet, through a telescopic site, and James Miller is dead. The next shot is 5 seconds later, at the house where the rest of the crew is, aimed at another bright blue TV helmet, missing it by seconds. Murder. Everyday murder.



    The Israeli army murders civilians, just as much as suicide bombers murder Israelis. Just fucking deal with it.
  • Reply 154 of 249
    rashumonrashumon Posts: 453member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by segovius



    Is there any reason at all why any country on the face of this planet can have permission to continue in this way whatever the circumstances ? Is there anyone who has ever done so and been allowed (and supported) in their actions ?




    Pull your head out of the sand! Scores of other countries (some of them members of the UNSC and other members of the UN Human rights commission) do far far worse things!

    Millions are dying in Sudan and Congo, the US is killing thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, China is executing thousands of ?criminals? and ?dissidents? every year, in Thailand thousands of Muslims are killed by the security forces and no one gives a damn, Russia has killed some 100,000 Chechens so far in its useless war in that miserable place and there are dozens of other places on the planet where shit like this takes place ? and all you can moan and grown about all day is the Israelis and the Palestinians blooding each other?s noses?

    Smacks of hypocrisy to me!



    Quote:

    Originally posted by segovius



    There is no doubt that the Israelis are undertaking a Pogrom against the Palestinian people - that alone is worthy of the comparison.




    Why the hell do you feel the need to mix this up with terminology from the European persecution of the Jews? How is a military operation carried out in response to numerous attacks that have resulted in the death of 18 Israeli (including 5 innocent civilians) anything like a racist motivated pogrom?



    Quote:

    Originally posted by segovius



    Racism is an infectious disease - it can be passed on by the perpetrator to the victim. How else can we explain that the same things the Jews had to suffer are now being inflicted on others by them. It is a cancer.




    The war in the middle east has NOTHING to do with racism ? it?s a classic war between two nations fighting over one land. Trying to paint it as racist is lame and divisive. Its a tactic used by extremists from both sides to perpetuate the war!

    If you want to see more bloodshed ? then go ahead, perpetuate that lie - that Israelis are attacking Palestinians because they are racists. That makes you just as bad as the right wing nutters who claim the Arabs are nothing but racist scum who fight the jews simply coz they are jews.
  • Reply 155 of 249
    rashumonrashumon Posts: 453member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pfflam

    I can no longer give any positive words for Israel: they are now acting like the same kind of monsters as suicide bombers, escept that they have great weapons and uniforms . . . sad




    I totally disagree! While many of the actions undertaken by the IDF can be seen as unnecessarily brutal - especially in the light that the western media paints them in ? IDF action is never purposely aimed at harming innocents and the Israeli government always takes great care in emphasizing it and apologising for any case where innocents die. there have been quite a few cases where soldiers or officers who have gone overboard and caused the unnecessary death of civilians have been prosecuted and jaild for their transgressions. The PA, Hamas, Fatah, IJ etc.. specifically target civilians with the aim of murdering them. The PA have released all their Hamas murderers jailed during the Oslo years from prison in direct attempt to maximise Israeli civilian casualties and sure as hell never bother to prosecute anyone - not even those guys who killed those 3 US embassy security guys killed in Gaza a year ago (and PA knew who did it, they had them and they let them walk) ? BIG DIFFERENCE



    Israeli military actions cause far less civilian deaths then the comparable actions of any other military in the world ? for example the UK and US military has killed 10 times the numbers of innocents in far less time in their operations in Iraq or Afghanistan? the IDF still has one of the best civilian/combatant death ratios in the history of warfare! And if you can?t see that you are deluded by media hysteria!



    The sad truth is that when military forces go into combat innocents die! And In the case of the IDF less innocents die in most cases!
  • Reply 156 of 249
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by rashumon

    IDF action is never purposely aimed at harming innocents and the Israeli government always takes great care in emphasizing it and apologising for any case where innocents die.



    Israeli military actions cause far less civilian deaths then the comparable actions of any other military in the world ? for example the UK and US military has killed 10 times the numbers of innocents in far less time in their operations in Iraq or Afghanistan




    Point one is wrong. The IDF frequently kills innocent people on purpose. Snipers to kids, snipers to journalists, you name it. Shame you won't take either the UN's word for it, or Amnesty's word for it ... in fact, the only word you will take is the IDF's word. But you are wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I've seen footage myself that can only be purposeful murder of innocent civilians. Happens all the time. In addition, you may take bulldozing a house you know contains innocents as necessary military action, even though it's against international law. I still call it murder.



    Second point; also cobblers. The absolutely mind-boggling amount of munitions the allies dropped on Iraq, even with their incredible 'precision' clusterbombs and cruise missiles, resulted in over 10000 deaths. Only. With just bulldozers, bullets and Hellfires the Israelis are managing thousands of innocents a year. Do the math.
  • Reply 157 of 249
    giantgiant Posts: 6,041member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Tulkas

    Typical Liberal arguement is, if it's Israel, it is bad.







    Sure it is.
  • Reply 158 of 249
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by New

    You put forward false accusations about children being used systematically by palestinians. It's a normal right-wing israeli claim. You should back it up, but I suspect you can't.





    Their children are used systematically in the intifada. Did i suggest they are used exclusively as bombers, or even often? No. Did I suggest that given that scenario that they would be a target yes. Did I suggest that Arafat himself asked journalists not to show images of Palestinian children involved in the intifada? Yes. Are children used, to various degrees, in the uprising? Yes. Did I suggest it was only parents that indoctrinate they children? No. The school systems teach they children the evils of jews, not just Israel. They are taught to seek Shahada, death for their religion. The entire Palestinian structure of official social agencies promote this idea, from the schools to the networks to the mosques.





    Quote:

    Originally posted by New



    Palestinian extreemist are indoctrinating their children, sure. So are jewish settlers in Hebron, teaching their children to throw garbage and stones down on palestinians from their occupied buldings in the city center. That doesn't mean they are sending them out deliberately to be killed for the cause of world sympath.



    It's a racist myth that the palestinians don't love their children.





    I have never heard that Palestinian parents don't love their children. That doesn't mean that some don't view sacrificing them as a worthwhile goal. I think the vast majority are repulsed by the concept of sending their children to die or even indoctrinating them to do so. Does that mean it doesn't happen? Obviously it does. The main perpatrators of the indoctrination are the activist groups and the PA itself. The PA sponsors TV programs including pop music videos, classes in schools and textbooks. While I am sure there are jewish parents that are just as vile in their indoctrination of hatred towards palestinians in general, I don't believe that there exists the same level of systematic, official indoctrination of overt hatred.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by New



    The case with the 16 year old boy is the worst I could think of. That's why I metioned it. It's more an exception than a rule.




    And to return to why the children were being discussed by bunge and me, would you feel that boy, being a child, must be absolutally ruled out as a target by the Israeli's because of his age? If they weren't able to convince him to surrender, would his death have been murder?
  • Reply 159 of 249
    tulkastulkas Posts: 3,757member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by New

    How about the one ton bomb dropped on an apparment-building? Granted there was a Hamas member inside, but so was over 10 civilians. Children.



    Sharon gave the final order fro that bombing. What is your stance on that?




    Obviously regrettable. Would I condemn Israel for it? I would need to know more about the situation. Was the hamas member being sheltered by the civilians? If so, that brings up the whole voluntary human shield debate. If they bombed the building for no other reason that to kill civilians, hang 'em. If it was a reasonably justifiable military operation, then condemnation becomes more qustionable for me.
  • Reply 160 of 249
    haraldharald Posts: 2,152member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Tulkas

    Obviously regrettable. Would I condemn Israel for it? I would need to know more about the situation. Was the hamas member being sheltered by the civilians? If so, that brings up the whole voluntary human shield debate. If they bombed the building for no other reason that to kill civilians, hang 'em. If it was a reasonably justifiable military operation, then condemnation becomes more qustionable for me.



    Genius! Every single apartment in the building, on every one of its multiple floors, was clearly sheltering a single Hamas member.



    Do you honestly credit that as a possibility?
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