G5 Trinity @ WWDC

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Comments

  • Reply 141 of 492
    Why would you ever need so many Expansion slots? 2, maybe 3 at most for graphics, 1 for sound, and maybe 1 for fiber channel or something. Macs don't have TV cards- those are all external boxes. what else do you need when everything else is already built in?(wireless networking, super fast ethernet, plenty of firewire/USB). I think 7 is just overkill. Plus i'm not sure PCI Express is backwards compatible, so you wouldn't want them all to be PCIe. Even if it were, thats just a waste of money.
  • Reply 142 of 492
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Imergingenious

    Why would you ever need so many Expansion slots? 2, maybe 3 at most for graphics, 1 for sound, and maybe 1 for fiber channel or something. Macs don't have TV cards- those are all external boxes. what else do you need when everything else is already built in?(wireless networking, super fast ethernet, plenty of firewire/USB). I think 7 is just overkill. Plus i'm not sure PCI Express is backwards compatible, so you wouldn't want them all to be PCIe. Even if it were, thats just a waste of money.



    1 for sound is enough for a gamer, but not a professional musician. A lot of rack systems have a PCI card that goes with the hardware. I think people in film, and TV would need some expandability as well. What if you do both? 7 seems like an excessive amount though. 5 including the PCIe slot for graphics would do, but I don't think we'll get PCIe first. Apple used to innovate, and push/drive the industry forward. They stopped doing that a while ago. Although one could argue that the 64 bit desktop was driven by Apple more than anyone else, and I'd say that is a fair assessment.
  • Reply 143 of 492
    Quote:

    Originally posted by onlooker

    1 for sound is enough for a gamer, but not a professional musician. A lot of rack systems have a PCI card that goes with the hardware. I think people in film, and TV would need some expandability as well. What if you do both? 7 seems like an excessive amount though. 5 including the PCIe slot for graphics would do, but I don't think we'll get PCIe first. Apple used to innovate, and push/drive the industry forward. They stopped doing that a while ago. Although one could argue that the 64 bit desktop was driven by Apple more than anyone else, and I'd say that is a fair assessment.



    Well, as a professional musician, I can tell you that 0 PCI slots is plenty these days. I traded in my PCI based MOTU 2408 for a FireWire 828mkII a while ago and couldn't be happier. MIDI has been through USB for a while, as have multi format sync boxes. For DSP hardware based processing TC's PowerCore now has a FireWire version and Universal Audio is going to release a FireWire version of the UAD-1. That pretty much leave ProTools as the only thing a musician might need PCI slots for and ProTools is a dying paradigm. Host based is taking over and for those who need the extra power TC's and UA's solutions are much less proprietary.



    In addition a USB or FireWire audio interface is a much better idea in general. I don't want analog audio signals going inside my electrical noisy computer case, and they're much easier to deal with (install, move from computer to computer).



    I do happen to think that we'll see PCI-Express on the early side. I don't know what you're talking about by saying Apple stopped innovating. That's complete nonsense. Is having 7 PCI slots innovative?



    Oh, and what 64-bit desktop are you talking about? While the G5 may be 64-bit, it has only added the ability to address more than 4GB of RAM. 64 bit FP operations were possible with the G4, and other than that OS X is not 64 bit.
  • Reply 144 of 492
    emig647emig647 Posts: 2,448member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Res

    This is what I came up with:



    MSI "K8T Master2-FAR" RETAIL - $205

    OPTERON 242 Retail Box. ($216 x 2) - $432.00

    Maxtor 160GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive - $92.00

    Lite-On CD/DVD-RW/+RW Drive - $79.00

    Samsung 512MB PC3200 Ram - $80

    Antec Soho File Server SX1040B Black 400W - $80.00

    GeForce FX 5200 64MB DDR 64MB AGP - $60.00

    Flopy drive - $8.00

    Total = $1036.00



    You forgot windows xp pro, and comparing the gf fx 5200 to the 9600pro is rediculous... buck up the graphics card to at least a 9600pro.... HAHA its about 50 more for a generic 9600pro... LOL!!! I thought I had you. Any ways you need to add about 160 dollars for the addition of XP and 9600.



    Quote:

    That being said, I will repeat something that I have stated dozens of times before: The pricing of Apple computers should be compared to the systems of other computer manifactures, such as Dell or IBM -- not to the cost of a home built computer.



    The large PC makers are Apples competition, not the hobbyist who likes to cobble together PCs in his living room. Home built systems are still such a small fraction of the market that they are irrelevant to the pricing of the big computer makers.



    EXACTLY... even though I'm a little suprised that everyone doesn't build a home computer... its so easy.



    Quote:

    Of course, it is very unfortunate that, when compared to the PCs made by Dell and other large computer makers, most of Apple's current products are extremely underpowered and/or overpriced. Something that was not true a few years ago, and I hope will be remedied with the next revision or two as the G5 scales up and moves throughout the lineup.



    Computers from Dell and other large manufacturers are so generic thoug. They ahve real pentium 4's but they cut costs so hard in other places. Our dells at OIT go down all the time, mobo, cdrom, powersupply, harddrive... all generic in these boxes. At least apple uses good component minus the powersupply... in the g5. Point is you're buying quality... sure the apple box has a higher markup... but I'd definitely rather work on that aluminum beast then a plastic dell... have you ever seen the metal case under the plastic? SO CHEAP!!



    Btw these are all the pro towers from last year that I'm talking about. Personally I don't like how people compare apple to dell. They are so different in so many ways. including THE OS!!!



    Quote:

    One thing that does worry me a bit is the recent Apple trend of putting its slowest G5 in the single processor machines. Every other manufacture has the fastest chip available in their single processor machines, so when you compare the top single processor Mac to a PC the Mac gets slaughtered.



    That's what I don't like about the Trinity rumor: a single 2.2GHz G5 is just not going to cut it against 3.4GHz P4 extreams. Now a 3GHz G5 should just crush the top P4s -- and that is something I would really like to see.



    um, yah if they are the regular 970 2.2 procs it won't beat it to death but it will give a 3.4 ext a run for its money... ESPECIALLY in a 64 bit app.



    I doubt they will run 970's in the new powermacs



    keep in mind that the 975 (supposedly) has a memory controller onboard.



    All in all I agree with what you're saying. But guys can we stop comparing pcs and macs and get back on topic?
  • Reply 145 of 492
    bigcbigc Posts: 1,224member
    ...so you build this $1200 POS windows box and in a couple months when you want something different (to keep up with the Jone's) this old box is worth $50.

    Meanwhile ya could have bought a refurb Mac for ±2G's and it would be worth $1700 after a couple of months. Let's see, which would I choose....
  • Reply 146 of 492
    Quote:

    Originally posted by REM#1



    What do you think of my suggestion?



    Please be specific.




    I think there's need or reason for the eMac to get a G5 right now. It's had it update, and I would guess it's the last one till it does get a G5, but that's next year. Apple wouldn't want to steal the iMac's thunder



    I also think that the 15" iMac will live on. 15" is a little small, but not too bad, and it allows Apple to advertise a cheap(ish) LCD iMac. I hope Apple gets to the $1099 mark, but if they do it'll be a 15". You're price of $1499 is a bit unrealistic for the 20"; there's no way they can pull such a major feature upgrade and drop the price $700 and make any money. $1999 would be the lowest I could see the 20" going for.



    The port selection/positioning is unrealistic too. The PowerMac only has 1 FW800 port, and it's in the back. I don't see the iMac getting 2 with one in the front. The only FW800 devices out there that I know of are a few HDs and 1 audio interface. I could see apple putting the same ports the G5 has on the front on the front of the iMac, but is it gets FW800 it'll be on the back.



    You're tower ideas are pretty far out as well.



    The new form factor you describe has almost all of the features of the PowerMac, just 2 less slots. I can't see why Apple would spend R&D and marketing money on a new model that's only slightly different and slightly smaller than the PowerMac. If there's a new form factor it will be a new version of the Cube.



    The Cube's problem wasn't that it lacked expandability. It's that it was ahead of it's time and priced out of existence. The vast majority of peripherals are now USB or FireWire based; there's very few that require PCI and don't have a FW alternative. If you really need PCI, then get a PowerMac. Also, if you need a second hard drive get a FW hard drive. Making a new model so close to a PowerMac only increases it's expense and ensures it's demise.



    The PowerMac you describe is quite a beast I must say, but completely unnecessary. My previous post address why that many PCI slots are not needed these days, but have you considered how big that machine would be? I used to have a Micron tower with 7 (or 8) slots. It was almost 30 inches tall! People give Apple grief now because the G5 is 21 inches tall and won't fit sideways into a 19" rack.



    Apple's HW design team seems to have decided that internal expansion isn't that important. HDs, CD/DVD drives, tape, zip, jaz, whatever, can all be added externally. If you're very concerned about performance and say that a FW800 HD doesn't have the same performance as SATA, then you might want to look at SCSI or FibreChannel to fill one of you're PCI slots.



    I don't what I think of PowerMac prices. One one hand I think Apple wants to be more competitive on price, on the other hand I think the G5 already si for the quality and performance you get. I also think that having the low-end machine at $1799, or maybe $1699 let's Apple place a single proc. G5 Cube in the $1199-$1599 range and try to avoid some of the pricing collisions they had with the OG Cube.
  • Reply 147 of 492
    kidredkidred Posts: 2,402member
    So after reading the last 3 pages of this 4 page thread, I guess there is no news news on the topic rumor?
  • Reply 148 of 492
    dglowdglow Posts: 147member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Ensign Pulver

    I knew there was reason I didn't hang out much around here anymore.



    This thread starts off with a great rumor on 3GHz PMs at WWDC, that is subsequently "confirmed" by an apparently intelligent and sincere source and then you f*cktards have got to screw it up with your inane postings on the cost of floppy drives.




    Damn, what bit you in the ass?



    I think the original rumor discussion pretty much played itself out, so I fail to see how anyone "screwed it up." If you want to bring us back to the original topic, a helpful and informative post might just do the job.
  • Reply 149 of 492
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    spankalee, I said apple stopped innovating because it's been a long time since they have pushed, or driven new technology the way they used to.

    I see PCIe as one of those driving factors that I do not believe Apple will have jumped on early to spark the PC frenzy in a game of catch up by WWDC.

    I think the PC side will slowly adopt it, and Apple will follow suit rather than be the early adapter.

    Although, in Apples defense -I did state that I thought that Apple did drive the 64 bit processor into early adoption, but I think Apple has grown timid, and become more concerned with their bottom line. All of which is good for financial reports, but boring, and a departure from the Apple that the Mac faithful fell in love with in the past that drove technology forward.

    The old Apple mystique is made up all kinds of things big, and small, but you notice some of the little things on a grander scale when things seem to be a changing. Let's hope I'm wrong, and Apple decided to jump forward with PCIe, and other users with visions of Apple in high places, and dreamers join our comunity, and buy Mac's. Don't forget. We are the crazy ones.
  • Reply 150 of 492
    macroninmacronin Posts: 1,174member
    Dual IBM PowerPC 975/G5 CPUs

    Dual 1.5GHz FrontSide Busses

    16GB DDR2 SDRAM ([email protected] ECC DIMMs)

    8x SuperDrive

    4x SuperDrive Extreme (Blu-Ray)

    Four (4) 500GB/7,200rpm/8MB cache SerialATA150 HDDs w/four independant channels

    Four (4) 16x PCI-Express expansion slots

    nVidia QuadroFX 4000 16x PCI-Express OpenGL card w/512MB DDR3 SGRAM

    Two (2) FireWire800 ports

    Two (2) FireWire400 ports

    Two (2) USB2 ports

    S/PDIF optical audio I/O port

    10/100/1000BaseT Ethernet (RJ45 port)

    Apple Pro USB keyboard

    Contour Design PerFit USB three-button mouse

    Contour Design ShuttlePro USB controller

    Airport Extreme, BlueTooth & modem optional



    30" 1920x1200 Apple Cinema Extreme Display

    18" Wacom Cintiq 1280x1024 LCD tablet display w/6"x9" CintiqPartner secondary graphics tablet



    Maya Complete

    Shake

    Final Cut Pro HD

    Motion

    Photoshop CS





    Max. RAM, Max. HDDs, all good stuff...!



    That makes for a pretty handy DCC workstation, wouldn't you think...?!?



    Cheers!



    ;^p
  • Reply 151 of 492
    spankaleespankalee Posts: 90member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by onlooker

    spankalee, I said apple stopped innovating because it's been a long time since they have pushed, or driven new technology the way they used to.

    I see PCIe as one of those driving factors that I do not believe Apple will have jumped on early to spark the PC frenzy in a game of catch up by WWDC.

    I think the PC side will slowly adopt it, and Apple will follow suit rather than be the early adapter.

    Although, in Apples defense -I did state that I thought that Apple did drive the 64 bit processor into early adoption, but I think Apple has grown timid, and become more concerned with their bottom line. All of which is good for financial reports, but boring, and a departure from the Apple that the Mac faithful fell in love with in the past that drove technology forward.

    The old Apple mystique is made up all kinds of things big, and small, but you notice some of the little things on a grander scale when things seem to be a changing. Let's hope I'm wrong, and Apple decided to jump forward with PCIe, and other users with visions of Apple in high places, and dreamers join our comunity, and buy Mac's. Don't forget. We are the crazy ones.




    onlooker, I still don't know what you're talking about. Apple has become timid? I just don't know where you get that idea. Just because they haven't had any major new product releases since WWDC doesn't mean they're timid or that they've stopped innovating.



    There are, as always, a number of example of technologies they've adopted or pushed or brought attention to.



    Killing off the floppy or legacy ports with USB is the common example, but I'll give some more recent ones: FireWire 800, Motion (check the videos out, it's very innovative), Expose, BlueTooth, XGrid, a cheap FibreChannel card, XSan and XRAID, Pixlet, the PM G5 cooling system, HyperTransport, PCI-X, optical audio out...



    PCI-X has always been seen as a stopgap measure by most of the industry because PCI-Express just wasn't ready yet, but with the adoption of PCI-X I think Apple showed that they do want to be cutting edge even if it's not the most important thing in the world.



    The Apple of a few years ago probably wouldn't have included PCI-X because it's not that much better than than PCI, at least when compared to PCI-Express. Some people would have complained that Apple didn't innovate anymore and was falling behind. Others would have pointed out that there aren't many PCI-X cards out and PCI-Express is right around the corner so it doesn't matter.



    The current Apple includes PCI-X, which is as cutting edge as they could be when the G5 came out, and people call them timid? I don't get it. Maybe if IBM didn't get hit with production problems and Apple was able to update some of their line you might not think that, but that situation has nothing to do with Apple being timid.



    I haven't even mentioned iTunes and iPod yet. Apple has been very aggressive and innovative there.



    There has been a lot of work being done with getting HyperTransport and PCI-Express to play nice. They go well together, despite the FUD spread by Intel. AMD is working on the and AMD makes the HyperTransport bridge in the G5, so I fully expect PCI-Express to go into the PowerMac as soon as it's possible and that might be in a few weeks.



    I'd like to hear how it is that you think Apple is being timid.
  • Reply 152 of 492
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,360member
    PCI Express is being oversold. Apple is wise not to hype it up that much. AGP 8x is far from being the bottleneck in games. It's memory. Apple would do much more for realword speed increases if they were to add DDR II support.



    Don't get me wrong PCIe is going to be nice but it will mirror the move from AGP 4x to 8x. The benchmarks will show only the smallest measurable increase. My beef with the industry right now is that they are marketing machines that are faster in areas that do not yield real world results. It's far easier to sell someone a new computer because it has 16x PCIe and hope that they don't notice the many bottlenecks that exist within the architecture like the FSB and memory busses. The biggest beneficiary of PCIe will not be gamers. It'll be that huge networking company that will be able to run 10g Ethernet without destroying PCI bandwidth. Gigabit has already been removed from the PCI bus in most newer designs. Game GPUs store the heavy stuff in local memory.



    That is why I'm not too eager to build another PC. Why? Because the leap hasn't been significant enough from what I have now.



    With that in mind I'd like to see Apple.



    Beef up the audio. Apples audio implementation isn't HW accelerated. It costs Macs in benchmarks for games because the CPU is still handling most of the audio work. Macs need a world class audio architecture that can sling 24 bit audio around like a champ.



    Again Memory. DDR II is expensive memory...but once it's running it's efficient enough that we should see some benefits to it as it should easily go to 800MBps. Add on ondie memory controller and that'll offset the higher DDR II latency.



    Then beef up the Hypertransport links(2.0) and voila! You have a nice little 'puter.



    Oh toss in SATA-300 as well.
  • Reply 153 of 492
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    spankalee, I like the point you make.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by MacRonin



    Dual IBM PowerPC 975/G5 CPUs

    Dual 1.5GHz FrontSide Busses

    16GB DDR2 SDRAM ([email protected] ECC DIMMs)

    8x SuperDrive

    4x SuperDrive Extreme (Blu-Ray)

    Four (4) 500GB/7,200rpm/8MB cache SerialATA150 HDDs w/four independant channels

    Four (4) 16x PCI-Express expansion slots

    nVidia QuadroFX 4000 16x PCI-Express OpenGL card w/512MB DDR3 SGRAM

    Two (2) FireWire800 ports

    Two (2) FireWire400 ports

    Two (2) USB2 ports

    S/PDIF optical audio I/O port

    10/100/1000BaseT Ethernet (RJ45 port)

    Apple Pro USB keyboard

    Contour Design PerFit USB three-button mouse

    Contour Design ShuttlePro USB controller

    Airport Extreme, BlueTooth & modem optional



    30" 1920x1200 Apple Cinema Extreme Display

    18" Wacom Cintiq 1280x1024 LCD tablet display w/6"x9" CintiqPartner secondary graphics tablet



    Maya Complete

    Shake

    Final Cut Pro HD

    Motion

    Photoshop CS





    Max. RAM, Max. HDDs, all good stuff...!



    That makes for a pretty handy DCC workstation, wouldn't you think...?!?



    Cheers!




    ;^p




    Yes that does make for a pretty handy DCC workstation
  • Reply 154 of 492
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    Quote:

    Beef up the audio. Apples audio implementation isn't HW accelerated. It costs Macs in benchmarks for games because the CPU is still handling most of the audio work. Macs need a world class audio architecture that can sling 24 bit audio around like a champ.





    hmurchison, would the purchase of like an m-audio revolution audio card reduce the CPU cost of the audio work, or does there need to be a big architecture revamp by Apple to reduce the audio work done by the CPU?
  • Reply 155 of 492
    spankaleespankalee Posts: 90member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Don't get me wrong PCIe is going to be nice but it will mirror the move from AGP 4x to 8x. The benchmarks will show only the smallest measurable increase.



    PCIe is a lot more than AGP16x. First it's 16x both ways, meaning the card can send data back to the computer at 16x, AGP is 1x. Second it's tricky to have multiple AGP slots, not so with PCIe.



    Quote:



    Beef up the audio. Apples audio implementation isn't HW accelerated. It costs Macs in benchmarks for games because the CPU is still handling most of the audio work. Macs need a world class audio architecture that can sling 24 bit audio around like a champ.





    Audio isn't like 3D, how do you propose to hardware accelerate it? Have built-in reverb and EQ on the motherboard? I know some soundblaster cards have effects, but they're really cheap and can't ever be changed. If people want to get a USB Audigy and the game developers want to support it, then they can go right ahead, but those peices aren't standard on PCs. Believe me, Apple has a world class audio architecture in CoreAudio. Windows users will weep with envy soon at what OS X is able to do. What other operating system can handle unlimited channels of audio?
  • Reply 156 of 492
    mandricardmandricard Posts: 486member
    Is it just me, or did no one in this thread stipulate that "trinity" was the codename. It could just be a noun describing the three systems.



    Just a thought.



    And yes.......



    Hope still springs eternal.



    Mandricard

    AppleOutsider
  • Reply 157 of 492
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,360member
    Quote:

    hmurchison, would the purchase of like an m-audio revolution audio card reduce the CPU cost of the audio work, or does there need to be a big architecture revamp by Apple to reduce the audio work done by the CPU



    Yes the Revolution is accelerated. I don't think there has to be a huge architecture change. Right now we have the K2 controller handling all the I/O. Apple could add a beefier Audio Chip but I think they might just add more channel capability and for people that need more they can use FW.



    Quote:

    PCIe is a lot more than AGP16x. First it's 16x both ways, meaning the card can send data back to the computer at 16x, AGP is 1x. Second it's tricky to have multiple AGP slots, not so with PCIe.



    It still won't translate into more speed. AGP is not the bottleneck in GPU'. I did watch a nice presentation however about PCIe and how it's going to shuttle data around more efficiently. I think there may be gains there. How significant is anyones guess right now.



    Quote:

    Believe me, Apple has a world class audio architecture in CoreAudio.



    Exactly Spankalee. We now need some sort of way of getting the hardware up to CoreAudio speed. I mean FW is the only way to get out uncompressed multichannel HW. SPDIF is limited to 48Khz sampling rate. Something has to be beefed up here. But it's not really a dire thing. Audio pro's like yourself are looking outboard for the "good stuff".
  • Reply 158 of 492
    groovygroovy Posts: 6member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Res

    This is what I came up with:



    MSI "K8T Master2-FAR" RETAIL - $205



    OPTERON 242 Retail Box. ($216 x 2) - $432.00



    Maxtor 160GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive - $92.00



    Lite-On CD/DVD-RW/+RW Drive - $79.00



    Samsung 512MB PC3200 Ram - $80



    Antec Soho File Server SX1040B Black 400W - $80.00



    GeForce FX 5200 64MB DDR 64MB AGP - $60.00



    Flopy drive - $8.00



    Total = $1036.00





    A few things: one, I am very tired of people making statements about computer pricing without ever bothering to look at the component cost of computers. I'm sorry if it upsets you that a person can build extremely powerful PCs for a fraction of the cost of a Powermac, but it is a fact that we all have to live with.






    just how much did you leave out? (really I'm curious what comes with that and what does not)



    OS? does that even come with XP? or do you have to BUY it?

    Do you get ANY software with that? like all the apps that come with OSX?



    keyboard?

    mouse?

    bluetooth?

    Firewire 800?

    Gigabit ethernet?

    8X DVD A107 burner which ships with ALL G5 duals now (that Lite-on is NOT an 8X burner)

    Fans?

    power supply?

    modem?

    How fast are the CPUs? (are those 1.4 or 1.8?)



    what about quality? do you care about quality at all? All my PC's

    i have owned broke down quicker than my macs.





    what is up with that lame video card? At least put the exact same one

    in both systems.





    is time worth anything to you? You have to get all these parts

    and build that thing (then hope all the parts are good to go as

    the first test comes after you put it together and pwer it on hoping

    you needed screw up something or get a bad part)



    What about full system warranty? What is a good warranty worth to you?





    anyway...



    You can BTO off stuff on Dual G5 and save a lot of cash. Like say just get a

    CD-R (save $200) then spend $98 and put an A107 8X into it. you save

    $102 and you get a CD-R AND DVD-R.



    In case you are wondering I own a 2.4Ghz P4 as well as 5 macs and i know

    very well just how bad and how good both sides can be.







    BTW - macs keep their value better when you want to go sell one on ebay
  • Reply 159 of 492
    kasperkasper Posts: 941member, administrator
    Guys -- as far as we can tell, this 975/trinity/3-3.2GHz information is nonsense. It is completely fabricated bullshit that this moron keeps submitting to all the rumor sites because he apparently receives some sick form of satisfaction by seeing his lies spread all over the internet and referenced by publications.



    -Kasper
  • Reply 160 of 492
    dhagan4755dhagan4755 Posts: 2,152member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kasper

    as far as we can tell, this 975/trinity/3-3.2GHz information is nonsense.



    Thanks for setting the record straight. Now if you could only shed some light onto what we may realistically see at WWDC that would be great.
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