G5 Trinity @ WWDC

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  • Reply 161 of 492
    ensign pulverensign pulver Posts: 1,193member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by dglow

    Damn, what bit you in the ass?



    I think the original rumor discussion pretty much played itself out, so I fail to see how anyone "screwed it up." If you want to bring us back to the original topic, a helpful and informative post might just do the job.




    Sorry, it was late and I just hate it when everything dissolves into a PC vs. Mac price war shouting match.



    As far as the "helpful and informative post" goes how's this?



    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    PCI Express is being oversold. Apple is wise not to hype it up that much. AGP 8x is far from being the bottleneck in games. It's memory. Apple would do much more for realword speed increases if they were to add DDR II support.



    Don't get me wrong PCIe is going to be nice but it will mirror the move from AGP 4x to 8x. The benchmarks will show only the smallest measurable increase. My beef with the industry right now is that they are marketing machines that are faster in areas that do not yield real world results. It's far easier to sell someone a new computer because it has 16x PCIe and hope that they don't notice the many bottlenecks that exist within the architecture like the FSB and memory busses. The biggest beneficiary of PCIe will not be gamers. It'll be that huge networking company that will be able to run 10g Ethernet without destroying PCI bandwidth. Gigabit has already been removed from the PCI bus in most newer designs. Game GPUs store the heavy stuff in local memory.




    Wrong and wrong. PCIe graphics (on the Mac anyway) are not about "being one louder" or incremental game performance. PCIe will be of HUGE benefit to every OS X user because Apple is in the unique position of integrating the technology directly into both apps and the operating system they run on.



    Again, PCIe isn't just 16x, it's 16x in both directions.



    AGP = 8x from CPU to GPU, 1x from GPU back to CPU

    PCIe = 16x from CPU to GPU, 16x from GPU back to CPU.



    That's right, a PCIe native GPU can send rendered data from its memory back to the CPU 16 times faster than AGP! Think about what that means for Quartz Extreme, Open GL and GPU bound applications like Shake and Motion. This is precisely where Apple's 100% control over hardware and software and the subsequent nimbleness to bring solutions to market quickly is so important. I fully expect PCIe to be a new foundation for all types of radical improvements to the Mac experience, and we'll get our first real taste of it at WWDC with PCIe equipped Power Macs and a massively improved graphics engine in Tiger.
  • Reply 162 of 492
    ensign pulverensign pulver Posts: 1,193member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kasper

    Guys -- as far as we can tell, this 975/trinity/3-3.2GHz information is nonsense. It is completely fabricated bullshit that this moron keeps submitting to all the rumor sites because he apparently receives some sick form of satisfaction by seeing his lies spread all over the internet and referenced by publications.



    -Kasper




    Kasper



    Are you saying croquer.free.fr are the "sick, lying morons", or somebody else? What about tman's source? He's certainly seems credible. Or is he a sick, lying moron too?



    AI hasn't had a meaningful article on the Power Mac roadmap in months. Why don't you tell us what you know instead of just insulting people.
  • Reply 163 of 492
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,419member
    Quote:

    Again, PCIe isn't just 16x, it's 16x in both directions.



    http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/s...649748,00.html



    AGP is 266MBps x 8 = 2.1GBps



    PCIe 16x equals 200-250MBps x 8 = 2GBps each way for 4 GBps theoretical.



    The bidirectionality doesn't really mean anything because that's not the bottleneck in GPUs.



    Quote:

    AGP = 8x from CPU to GPU, 1x from GPU back to CPU

    PCIe = 16x from CPU to GPU, 16x from GPU back to CPU.



    The AGP bus does not allow bus snooping. Since it's sending a lot of data through the system the spec was created to minimize traffic on the FSB. AGP does allow programmers to send PCI Read Requests if they need to snoop the bus but there's no coherency between data coming back on the AGP versus PCI bus.



    Enter PCI Espress. Developers can now assign values to their Read Request to either snoop the bus or not snoop the bus. The GPU has internalized the GART chip(removing it from the North Bridge) there generally isn't much data that would need to reside in the CPU L1 or L2 cache(due to size) but if so there is you can flag certain pieces. All handled within the driver.



    I think the biggest feature of PCI express isn't the bandwidth but it's intelligence. Bus contention is eased now that read completions that are not dependent on a posted write can be moved ahead. With AGP you can have traffic bottlenecked behind slow posted writes slowing the whole bus down. That's now gone.



    I want PCI Express as quickly as possible but I think it's good to temper people explanations.



    Yes PCI Express is faster but throughput isn't the Achilles heel of AGP it's the managament of read requests and posted writes. It's removing as much data from the FSB but still maintaining access to the CPU's fast caches when you really need them while keeping the whole show in sync.



    Do not expect bandwidth alone to yield a noticeable increase. Nvidia is only purporting a %20 increase in speed and this is dependent on the driver managing write combine buffers efficiently as well as read request/posted writes.



    If the WWDC Powermacs don't have PCIe don't freak. You'll still have a wicked machine and by the time you do get PCIe in your computer most of the drivers will be tuned to the efficiencies of PCIe.



    So Ensign I guess we are in agreement more than disagreement.
  • Reply 164 of 492
    ensign pulverensign pulver Posts: 1,193member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    So Ensign I guess we are in agreement more than disagreement.



    Seems so. Thanks for the extra info.



    I just can't get over how much emphasis the Apple Video guys put on the use of a Radeon 9800 Pro in their Motion demo at NAB. With ATi already announcing that all their next gen cards will be PCIe only, it just seems Apple is poised for early adoption.
  • Reply 165 of 492
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Ensign Pulver

    Kasper



    Are you saying croquer.free.fr are the "sick, lying morons", or somebody else? What about tman's source? He's certainly seems credible. Or is he a sick, lying moron too?




    It's a source, not a publisher.



    Quote:

    AI hasn't had a meaningful article on the Power Mac roadmap in months. Why don't you tell us what you know instead of just insulting people.



    What if what he knows is that there's someone around spreading crap? It certainly wouldn't be the first time....
  • Reply 166 of 492
    ensign pulverensign pulver Posts: 1,193member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    What if what he knows is that there's someone around spreading crap? It certainly wouldn't be the first time....



    I still take exception to Kasper's tone. It was unnecessarily rude and dismissive, especially in light of no specifics of his own. If he "knows" someone is spreading crap, then let's hear the details.
  • Reply 167 of 492
    existenceexistence Posts: 991member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kasper

    Guys -- as far as we can tell, this 975/trinity/3-3.2GHz information is nonsense. It is completely fabricated bullshit that this moron keeps submitting to all the rumor sites because he apparently receives some sick form of satisfaction by seeing his lies spread all over the internet and referenced by publications.



    -Kasper




    You're right and you're wrong. You're right the information is spurious, but wrong to think there is a person knowingly spreading misinformation.



    No, apparently, the french site got the specs off a japanese blog and failed to realize that the blogger was just guessing the specs.



    Perhaps the person who emailed you also could not read japanese.
  • Reply 168 of 492
    kasperkasper Posts: 941member, administrator
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Ensign Pulver

    Kasper



    Are you saying croquer.free.fr are the "sick, lying morons", or somebody else? What about tman's source? He's certainly seems credible. Or is he a sick, lying moron too?



    AI hasn't had a meaningful article on the Power Mac roadmap in months. Why don't you tell us what you know instead of just insulting people.




    Re paragraph 1:

    No. I'm saying that there is an individual, who lives in canada, who is apparently french canadian, and has been submitting false reports for about 8 months now. Many of which have been published by semi major publications, including AppleInsider. The last one published by AppleInsider came about 4 months ago, and I will soon be labeling those reports accordingly.



    I also am unprivileged to any knowledge or 'tman' or who his sources are, so no disrespect there.



    Re paragraph 2:

    This is where I am biased, though I wish I didn't feel that way. I feel that AI has been the most informative, and due to the circumstances, the most accurate (in a sense), of any publication following the Power Mac G5 rev 2 news. The machines were first seeded in Dec. I know this as fact. Problems arose, though its unclear if they were destine for Feb or Jan. We original heard Jan around the time of the seeding. Then there was a major issue with the supply of chips Apple planned to rev these units with. THIS WAS CONFIRMED BY APPLE. They have no 90nm in adequate quantities over 2GHz, and still do not. They were promised them. They expected them, and it did not happen. We reported on this prior and after the fact. This is believed to be the culprit behind the current hold up, and we've stated this.



    Having said all that, I believe our information was and continues to be based on facts and the reality of the current situation.



    And for the record, I was not intending to be insulting. I was intending to protect my members from this moron's drivvel.



    I have a lot of reports on the PowerMac situation. FWIW the date I've heard for the past 3 months has been June 28th (WWDC). I consistently mentioned in articles to holding a date, but not publishing it due to lack of confirmation. After publishing multiple articles noting further delays (and what some believed to be appleinsider excuses), I was hesitant to throw such a blow on the main pages. I didn't want to fuel a fire in March, when I told readers there was reason to believe no Power Mac G5 updates would surface till almost july.



    I've been gathering details and making attempts to confirm them. I have information I believe to be accurate, but I'm not ready to publish it in an article. And FWIW, I would love to just be able to tell you guys the status and details right here, but I'd be pretty unhappy when the information is lifted and published elsewhere the next morning. I want to make sure the information is solid, and then present it to all of you. That is always our goal. I would hope that this is what you all would like, as well?



    But, in actuality, I just did tell you what I'm pretty certain of: the 975/3.2GHz rumors which are fabricated.



    Hope this helps
  • Reply 169 of 492
    ensign pulverensign pulver Posts: 1,193member
    Thanks Kasper. See, that wasn't so hard.



    Please see tman's posts on pages 1 and 2. I'd be interested in your opinion.
  • Reply 170 of 492
    kasperkasper Posts: 941member, administrator
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Ensign Pulver

    Thanks Kasper. See, that wasn't so hard.



    Please see tman's posts on pages 1 and 2. I'd be interested in your opinion.




    Well, you seem to know tman better than I. Has he been accurate about predictions of this magnitude before? How do we know that the source he spoke to at the conference was not informed by the same material that I feel is misinforming all of us?



    I dunno what my opinion is. My opinion is that these rumors have to come to me exclusively from a liar. And frankly, I'm sick of him, and I don't like what he does. And the success he attempts to destroy. I've spoken to many people, and it appears that the source of these rumors are one in the same.



    I really can't stand this guy and what he does, though I have no clue as to what drives him.



    Kasper
  • Reply 171 of 492
    costiquecostique Posts: 1,084member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kasper

    They [Apple] have no 90nm in adequate quantities over 2GHz, and still do not.



    OMFG. Kasper, you're killing me. Really.
  • Reply 172 of 492
    ensign pulverensign pulver Posts: 1,193member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kasper

    Well, you seem to know tman better than I. Has he been accurate about predictions of this magnitude before? How do we know that the source he spoke to at the conference was not informed by the same material that I feel is misinforming all of us?



    It's his first prediction of any kind and he freely admits that he has no way of verifying any of it. His conference source claimed to have first hand knowledge ("in the belly of the beast") and not merely repeating info from another source, French Canadian or otherwise.



    I really don't understand all this anti-975 sentiment. Unlike the Power 4/970 development cycle, IBM knew from day one the Power 5 would spawn a low power, low cost version. This could result in the 975 coming to market much sooner after its big brother's debut then the 970 ever could have after the Power 4. In fact, this seems to be exactly what tman's source is saying.



    I don't know anything either, just trying to be optimistic.
  • Reply 173 of 492
    dglowdglow Posts: 147member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kasper

    I really can't stand this guy and what he does, though I have no clue as to what drives him.



    Well, Kasper, the conspiracy theorist in me suggests the possibility of an Apple-sponsored anti-rumor FUD-monger.



    </levity>
  • Reply 174 of 492
    costiquecostique Posts: 1,084member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Ensign Pulver

    I really don't understand all this anti-975 sentiment. Unlike the Power 4/970 development cycle, IBM knew from day one the Power 5 would spawn a low power, low cost version bringing the 975 to market much sooner then the 970 did.



    Theoretically, it may be so that PPC975 was Apple's exclusive initiative. This might explain why no official information on it is available. However, I doubt that IBM can conceal the whole development of such a CPU only because Jobs told them so.
  • Reply 175 of 492
    resres Posts: 711member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Groovy

    just how much did you leave out? (really I'm curious what comes with that and what does not)



    The only reason I tossed those components together for an example was because of the uninformed post that rudely said you cannot build a dual-Opteron system with a DVD-R drive, 160GB hard drive, 512MB RAM, video card, case and power supply could not be made for $1000 - $1300, and that anyone who said otherwise was a PC troll living in la-la land.



    Remember - I went on in my post to say that you should never compare home built PCs to Macs. That being said, I'll try to answer your questions.



    Quote:



    OS? does that even come with XP? or do you have to BUY it?

    Do you get ANY software with that? like all the apps that come with OSX?




    For an OS I would use Linux (or BSD). For applications, here are a few, but there are a lot more free apps that I would download: GNOME, Gimp, OpenOfffice, Apache web server, MySQL, Mozilla, WINE, LAME, Xmms, DivX Video, CDR-Toaster, Kino, Cinelerra, Blinder, Bluefish, Gnumeric, Rubrica 2, GNOME-PIM, MagicPoint



    Quote:



    keyboard?

    mouse?

    bluetooth?

    Firewire 800?

    Gigabit ethernet?

    Fans?

    power supply?

    modem?





    Keyboard and mouse - forgot them, add on another $50.00

    Bluetooth, Firewire 800: and Modem: No.

    Gigabit ethernet, fans, and 400 Watt power supply: Yes.



    Quote:

    8X DVD A107 burner which ships with ALL G5 duals now (that Lite-on is NOT an 8X burner)



    *sigh* Who cares? This was not a Mac vs PC comparison. But it does write DVD+R at 8X -- Lite-On DVD-RW/+RW Drive, Model LDW-811S/ 851S, Retail $79.00 (Write Speed: 8X DVD+R, 4X DVD-R, 4X DVD+RW, 2X DVD-RW, 40X CD-R, 24X CD-RW Read Speed: 40X CD-ROM, 12X DVD-ROM).



    And for only $19 more you can get a 12X writer

    Artec DVD+/-RW Drive, Model VOM-12E48X, Retail $97.99

    (Write Speed: 12X DVD+R, 4X DVD+RW, 8X DVD-R, 4X DVD-RW, 40X CD-R, 24X CD-RWRead Speed: 40X CD-ROM, 12X DVD-ROM)



    Quote:

    How fast are the CPUs? (are those 1.4 or 1.8?)



    The Opteron 242 is clocked at 1.6GHz



    Quote:



    what about quality? do you care about quality at all? All my PC's

    i have owned broke down quicker than my macs.





    Besideds the point, but thats why I always prefer to build PC rather then buy whole systems -- you know you are putting in quality parts and not some of the cheap crap you get stuck with when you buy a pre-built system.



    Quote:

    what is up with that lame video card? At least put the exact same one in both systems.



    Both systems? There is no other system. I was responding to another post and showing that you can build a Dual Opteron for $1000 - $1300. Of course it is the card that comes with the single processor Powermac...



    Since I only build PCs for gaming I have no desire to build a dual processor computer. This systems was thrown together as a quick example, I did not spend a lot of time trying to get the lowest prices (I used mostly retail parts), Nor did I try to make it as powerful as I could have. I just saw someone make a ludicrous and insulting statement and felt compelled to respond. It was in no way meant to be a comparison between Macs and Opterons.



    Now back to our regularly scheduled topic.
  • Reply 176 of 492
    resres Posts: 711member
    Does anyone have any solid information on the PPC975? I've been searching the web and all I've found are rumors. Is it on one of the published roadmaps?
  • Reply 177 of 492
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kasper



    Re paragraph 2:

    This is where I am biased, though I wish I didn't feel that way. I feel that AI has been the most informative, and due to the circumstances, the most accurate (in a sense), of any publication following the Power Mac G5 rev 2 news. The machines were first seeded in Dec. I know this as fact. Problems arose, though its unclear if they were destine for Feb or Jan. We original heard Jan around the time of the seeding. Then there was a major issue with the supply of chips Apple planned to rev these units with. THIS WAS CONFIRMED BY APPLE. They have no 90nm in adequate quantities over 2GHz, and still do not. They were promised them. They expected them, and it did not happen. We reported on this prior and after the fact. This is believed to be the culprit behind the current hold up, and we've stated this.





    So if they can barely get any 2 ghz parts now at the end of May,exactly what can we expect in a month? Another major drop in market share? Looks like apple poisons everything they touch!
  • Reply 178 of 492
    costiquecostique Posts: 1,084member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by cuneglasus

    So if they can barely get any 2 ghz parts now at the end of May,exactly what can we expect in a month? Another major drop in market share? Looks like apple poisons everything they touch!



    Easy, easy... It simply looks like Jobs will soon have to end it all in public, presumably at WWDC. Sources close to Apple HQ claim he is going to do harakiri.
  • Reply 179 of 492
    telomartelomar Posts: 1,804member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    It still won't translate into more speed. AGP is not the bottleneck in GPU'. I did watch a nice presentation however about PCIe and how it's going to shuttle data around more efficiently. I think there may be gains there. How significant is anyones guess right now.



    The AGP bus is a bottleneck when it comes to upstream comms. Increasing that from 1x to 16x speed will have a significant effect on the role of GPUs in the future and although you won't see it in first gen cards you can be certain you will in later gens.
  • Reply 180 of 492
    onlookeronlooker Posts: 5,252member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by costique

    Easy, easy... It simply looks like Jobs will soon have to end it all in public, presumably at WWDC. Sources close to Apple HQ claim he is going to do harakiri.



    Where are these sources close to Apple? I am assuming that this means Apple will not hit 3GHz as promised at WWDC.



    And please let's not argue over the later revised time frame.
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