There are more parallels to the arab idea of the 60s of "throwing the jews back into the sea" than the current racial segregation in Israel. However, almost all states in the region have overcome this deadly ideology and accepted the right of Israel to exist.
Excuse me??? Which states apart from Egypt and Jordan (both have signed a land for peace deals with Israel) have accepted the right of Israel to exist?
Please explain what racial segregation are you talking about?
Quote:
Originally posted by Smircle
Unfortunately, the Israel of today has developed more and more traits of a rogue state - defying UN resolutions, amassing WoMDs, founding and funding terrorist groups (Hamas) and willfully destroying the foundations of the Palestine society.
1.that bollox about founding and funding Hamas is pure BS! While its true that originally when Hamas was a mere civilian religious group with no clear political and military/terrorist branches and aims Israel favouring it over Arafat?s terrorist Fatah as a Palestinian representative (this was in the late 80s) from the moment its changed it ideology and course it became Israel?s enemy no1. to claim Israel has founded it is just a pathetic diversionary tactic.
2. As for the WOMD ? Israel is a state under an existential threat! Why should it not arrange it self with an insurance policy in case its conventional military system fails? Why are countries such as France and the UK (who are not under any threat from anyone) require these weapons while Israel which has had it?s neighbours try and destroy it 3 times in the past 56 years is a called as a pariah for holding on to fewer & less grandiose weapons?
Their children are used systematically in the intifada. Did i suggest they are used exclusively as bombers, or even often? No. Did I suggest that given that scenario that they would be a target yes. Did I suggest that Arafat himself asked journalists not to show images of Palestinian children involved in the intifada? Yes. Are children used, to various degrees, in the uprising? Yes. Did I suggest it was only parents that indoctrinate they children? No. The school systems teach they children the evils of jews, not just Israel. They are taught to seek Shahada, death for their religion. The entire Palestinian structure of official social agencies promote this idea, from the schools to the networks to the mosques.
I have never heard that Palestinian parents don't love their children. That doesn't mean that some don't view sacrificing them as a worthwhile goal. I think the vast majority are repulsed by the concept of sending their children to die or even indoctrinating them to do so. Does that mean it doesn't happen? Obviously it does. The main perpatrators of the indoctrination are the activist groups and the PA itself. The PA sponsors TV programs including pop music videos, classes in schools and textbooks. While I am sure there are jewish parents that are just as vile in their indoctrination of hatred towards palestinians in general, I don't believe that there exists the same level of systematic, official indoctrination of overt hatred.
And to return to why the children were being discussed by bunge and me, would you feel that boy, being a child, must be absolutally ruled out as a target by the Israeli's because of his age? If they weren't able to convince him to surrender, would his death have been murder?
Show me that kid.
the Intifada is a popular uprising. It's not organized like an army attack. Hamas doesn't have to pull kids out into the streets because they are allready on the streets. Most parents can't keep them home. And even if they can they are not safe. Like the Amnesty report points out. If army bulldozer came razing through my neighborhood. I would be out on the streets throwing stones myself. If a sniper shot my kid feeding pigeons I would fucking make my own suicide-belt.
And go blow myself up with as many of those soldiers i could. If I lived this way all my life and saw my people dying every single day. Hell, I might even go for some of those civilians setteling illegally on my ancestors land.
Excuse me??? Which states apart from Egypt and Jordan (both have signed a land for peace deals with Israel) have accepted the right of Israel to exist?
Please explain what racial segregation are you talking about?
1.that bollox about founding and funding Hamas is pure BS! While its true that originally when Hamas was a mere civilian religious group with no clear political and military/terrorist branches and aims Israel favouring it over Arafat?s terrorist Fatah as a Palestinian representative (this was in the late 80s) from the moment its changed it ideology and course it became Israel?s enemy no1. to claim Israel has founded it is just a pathetic diversionary tactic.
2. As for the WOMD ? Israel is a state under an existential threat! Why should it not arrange it self with an insurance policy in case its conventional military system fails? Why are countries such as France and the UK (who are not under any threat from anyone) require these weapons while Israel which has had it?s neighbours try and destroy it 3 times in the past 56 years is a called as a pariah for holding on to fewer & less grandiose weapons?
The PLO / PA has accepted the right of Israel to exist. Should be sufficient for you. Israel did secretly fund Hamas to rival PLO. And Israel is not under an existentional threat. This is newspeak. It hasn't been for decades.
Point one is wrong. The IDF frequently kills innocent people on purpose. Snipers to kids, snipers to journalists, you name it. Shame you won't take either the UN's word for it, or Amnesty's word for it ... in fact, the only word you will take is the IDF's word. But you are wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I've seen footage myself that can only be purposeful murder of innocent civilians. Happens all the time. In addition, you may take bulldozing a house you know contains innocents as necessary military action, even though it's against international law. I still call it murder.
Yes there have been a few isolated cases where soldiers have acted criminally and killed innocents on purpose ? but these actions are rare and in most cases investigations are held and charges brought! There is no policy of killing civilians in the IDF! It is a clear policy of the Palestinian groups however!
Name me one case where the PA has actually charged anyone involved in terrorism in the past 3.5 years!! I can certainly give you a few where Israelis have been charged
Quote:
Originally posted by Harald
Second point; also cobblers. The absolutely mind-boggling amount of munitions the allies dropped on Iraq, even with their incredible 'precision' clusterbombs and cruise missiles, resulted in over 10000 deaths. Only. With just bulldozers, bullets and Hellfires the Israelis are managing thousands of innocents a year. Do the math.
]
Thousands of innocents a year?! In total since the start of the Intefada some 3000 Palestinians (most of which were combatants) and 1000 Israelis have been killed show me where that ridiculous ?thousands a year? of yours comes form
Weapons used in Iraq by the allies are almost the same as used by Israel, only Israel is far more careful using them so as to not harm civilians ? look at the numbers ? they speak for themselves!
The PLO / PA has accepted the right of Israel to exist. Should be sufficient for you. Israel did secretly fund Hamas to rival PLO. And Israel is not under an existentional threat. This is newspeak. It hasn't been for decades.
LOL New, you know full well that this was merely make believe! in practice they are still committed to the elimination of the "criminal colonial Zionist entity? as they still call it (just watch PA TV on any given day and see the incitement for yourself). Have they cancelled the Palestinian charter? Have they curbed Hamas and IJ who still talk regularly about the destruction of the ?usurper state??
You know they have not!
Anyway the PLO has never been an existential threat to Israel but countries such as Saudi, Syria, Libya, and most of all Iran certainly are. All are armed to the teeth and most are in possession of WOMD and Iran will soon have the big one! Iran also has ballistic missiles that can reach Israel easily.
And go blow myself up with as many of those soldiers i could. If I lived this way all my life and saw my people dying every single day. .
Yeah i would probably do the same. But that's not the Palestinian tactic is it!
Would you go and kill those innocents who have nothing to do with any of this (and who might actually be your supporters) in a Tel Aviv or a Jerusalem restaurant? coz that's what they are doing...
If they were only targeting soldiers it would be a whole different story... that would be a respectable guerila war that many would find hard to condemn!
BTW New people were not being killed ever single day for all their lives! No one was being killed in Gaza before they started their disastrous Intefada. The only deaths were of Israeli civilians (the ?casualties of peace?) occasionally being killed in the odd suicide bomb going off inside Israel during the Oslo years?
Its all about cause and effect! Some 50 Palestinians have been killed in the past 8 days in the IDF operations (12 of which were civilians) these were direct results of the 18 Israelis killed in the previous week (13 soldiers and 5 civilians ? a pregnant mother and her 4 children murdered by a Hamas gunman at point blank)
Yeah i would probably do the same. But that's not the Palestinian tactic is it!
Would you go and kill those innocents who have nothing to do with any of this (and who might actually be your supporters) in a Tel Aviv or a Jerusalem restaurant? coz that's what they are doing...
If they were only targeting soldiers it would be a whole different story... that would be a respectable guerila war that many would find hard to condemn!
Oh no you didn't. You said "respectible Guerilla war" as if such a beast existed. Guerilla wars include civilian terrorism (re FARC for the last 30 years or the Tamel tigers, or conflict in Congo, Sudan, or dare I say Iraq). Guerilla wars are messy and result in many civilain deaths, usually in high profile incidents. Guerilla wars are fought by inferior malitias or armies against superior armed and trained forces because the "shock and awe" are intended to deflate popular support for a conflict on the side of the superior force. It's the nature of guerilla war to turn stomaches. They are not civil affairs where both sides agree to terms and fight under those terms. They are necessarily disgusting. For you to even propose the idea of a respecitble guerilla war is simply nieve and dishonest.
I'm not advocating either side of this conflict, I'm decrying the use of the term respectible when tied to guerilla war.
LOL New, you know full well that this was merely make believe! in practice they are still committed to the elimination of the "criminal colonial Zionist entity? as they still call it (just watch PA TV on any given day and see the incitement for yourself). Have they cancelled the Palestinian charter? Have they curbed Hamas and IJ who still talk regularly about the destruction of the ?usurper state??
You know they have not!
They have suspended parts of the charter, yes.
Now is it me or you how is a victim of propaganda?
I think you know how propaganda works. hint: god/evil, us/them...
Yeah i would probably do the same. But that's not the Palestinian tactic is it!
Would you go and kill those innocents who have nothing to do with any of this (and who might actually be your supporters) in a Tel Aviv or a Jerusalem restaurant? coz that's what they are doing...
If they were only targeting soldiers it would be a whole different story... that would be a respectable guerila war that many would find hard to condemn!
look at the ratio. Palestinians are ten (10!!!) times more successful in targeting soldiers than israel is with palestinian millitants. explain.
Israeli army helicopter kills at least 20 protestors with missiles...
Well, just to drag us all back to reality kicking and screaming - the number of Palestinian casualties in that incident was actually 8 and a few of these are suspected to have been combatants.
There are also reports that Hamas gunman have murdered 2 palestinian children just before this incident took place... I'll find a link for a report and post it shortly...
Well, that explains how easily SH lead you by the nose. The more practical and functionality-minded among us know that such evidence can be offered via unobstructed inspections and proper/comprehensive documentation- "everything" accounted for and inventoried. Political waffling to "save face" in lieu of full disclosure is just not going to cut it here.
Interestingly enough, in logical discourse proving a negative is also referred to as an 'appeal to ignorance'
Genius! Every single apartment in the building, on every one of its multiple floors, was clearly sheltering a single Hamas member.
Do you honestly credit that as a possibility?
That the occupants of a single buidling could be collectively sheltering Hamas? Sure. It's not like the occupants would likely be unaware that Hamas was in the building...I mean even Israel knew.
The PLO / PA has accepted the right of Israel to exist. Should be sufficient for you. Israel did secretly fund Hamas to rival PLO. And Israel is not under an existentional threat. This is newspeak. It hasn't been for decades.
I'm not advocating either side of this conflict, I'm decrying the use of the term respectible when tied to guerilla war.
Fair enough ? I agree that the term respectable is not the right one to use when guerrilla war is discussed ? my mistake.
I am however trying to point out a very important difference here. there have been many cases in history where guerrilla fighters did not compel themselves to the level of barbarity and senseless slaughter as practiced by the Muslim terrorists of our time? Zionist resistance to the British Mandate authorities during the 40s for example, was focused on military and strategic targets, same applies to the first Palestinian intefada of the late 80s where operations were mainly carried out against IDF targets and Israeli civilians were generally left out of the fighting (no suicide bombings or mass targeting of Israelis inside Israel proper). that tactic won the Palestinians many friends in Israeli society and laid the ground for the Oslo process... sure enough many innocents died as a result of these attacks (including Jews, Brits and Arabs in both cases) but the target of the operations was always of the military or administrative type. another classic example of this was the war Hizbulah was waging against the IDF in southern Lebanon up until the Israeli withdrawal in 2000 - civilians were also generally left out of this conflict.
Note that in all these examples civilian casualties from both sides were kept at a minimum and in all cases the insurgents were far inferior in terms of military capability but were still able to win the day and achieve their political aim despite this military inferiority. something I doubt very much Palestinians will ever achieve in the current Intefada unless they choose different tactics...
For example, Imagine a scenario where Hezbollah instead of meticulously focusing on fighting against the IDF within southern Lebanon?s Israeli created security zone would have been using whatever they had to shell northern Israeli cities and killing Israelis in their homes. can anyone seriously suggest that this would have led to an Israeli withdrawal? In fact the opposite is probably what would have happened, i.e. Israel would have expanded the security zone and escalated their offensive operations in order to defend their civilians. Average Israelis would never really ask themselves ?why the hell are our boys lingering in southern Lebanon? (like they did in reality and which led to the eventual withdrawal) instead all they would say to their politicians is ?"hit the bastards as hard as you can! And who cares if a few Lebanese villagers get killed"? Do you see what I mean???
Same applied to many other guerrilla struggles in the past 100 years around the world ? of course passers by and non-combatants were being killed in many cases by both sides and I doubt those guerrilla forces gave much moral thought to these poor innocents who got in the way of their attacks but the point is that these were not their primary targets.
This is very different from the way the PA, Hamas and IJ operate!
When the procession with armed men in its midst set out in the direction of the forces, Zakai tried to speak with the community leaders in Rafah. The head of the Liaison and Coordination Administration, Colonel Poli Mordecai, phoned Nasser Saraj, the head of the Civil Committee in the city. Had the Liaison and Coordination Administration sufficed, they would not have needed the tank commander. Saraj, a respected individual, formerly the director-general of the Ministry of Trade and Industry in the Palestinian Authority, listened to Colonel Mordecai's pleas, but took no steps to prevent the disaster.
When men obeyed the calls over the loudspeakers to turn themselves in to the IDF authorities (and to the intelligence people who wanted to question them), they were confronted by members of the terror organizations, who opened fire on them and killed two children. A senior officer in Gaza reported yesterday that the IDF have in their possession pictures of this incident, of Palestinians killing their children. He expressed amazement as to why the army has refrained from publishing them.
As the procession approached the line of buildings behind which the IDF tanks and APCs were located, the commanders feared that the mob would overrun the forces and damage the vehicles; that from within the ranks of the demonstrators, rocket-propelled grenades and anti-tank missiles would be launched at the armored vehicles. S., who bears the scar of a Faggot missile that injured him in Lebanon, knew full well what an agile anti-tank weapon, from an effective distance, can do to a tank. And he also knew what has not been made public: The armored force towards which the demonstrators were advancing, was not the most advanced force. Ahead of it, hidden by camouflage, for observation and for sharpshooting and at the ready for an additional operation, were teams from Egoz and the Golani elite unit. If the demonstration was unwittingly to come between them and the armored force, the fighters of the special operations unit and Egoz would have been encircled. S., Zuckerman and Zakai would not have countenanced such a situation in any case and certainly not when it involved their comrades at arms. When the tank shells penetrated the abandoned building, the first of the demonstrators had reached the other side of the structure, and were hit.
Comments
Originally posted by Smircle
There are more parallels to the arab idea of the 60s of "throwing the jews back into the sea" than the current racial segregation in Israel. However, almost all states in the region have overcome this deadly ideology and accepted the right of Israel to exist.
Excuse me??? Which states apart from Egypt and Jordan (both have signed a land for peace deals with Israel) have accepted the right of Israel to exist?
Please explain what racial segregation are you talking about?
Originally posted by Smircle
Unfortunately, the Israel of today has developed more and more traits of a rogue state - defying UN resolutions, amassing WoMDs, founding and funding terrorist groups (Hamas) and willfully destroying the foundations of the Palestine society.
1.that bollox about founding and funding Hamas is pure BS! While its true that originally when Hamas was a mere civilian religious group with no clear political and military/terrorist branches and aims Israel favouring it over Arafat?s terrorist Fatah as a Palestinian representative (this was in the late 80s) from the moment its changed it ideology and course it became Israel?s enemy no1. to claim Israel has founded it is just a pathetic diversionary tactic.
2. As for the WOMD ? Israel is a state under an existential threat! Why should it not arrange it self with an insurance policy in case its conventional military system fails? Why are countries such as France and the UK (who are not under any threat from anyone) require these weapons while Israel which has had it?s neighbours try and destroy it 3 times in the past 56 years is a called as a pariah for holding on to fewer & less grandiose weapons?
Originally posted by Tulkas
Their children are used systematically in the intifada. Did i suggest they are used exclusively as bombers, or even often? No. Did I suggest that given that scenario that they would be a target yes. Did I suggest that Arafat himself asked journalists not to show images of Palestinian children involved in the intifada? Yes. Are children used, to various degrees, in the uprising? Yes. Did I suggest it was only parents that indoctrinate they children? No. The school systems teach they children the evils of jews, not just Israel. They are taught to seek Shahada, death for their religion. The entire Palestinian structure of official social agencies promote this idea, from the schools to the networks to the mosques.
I have never heard that Palestinian parents don't love their children. That doesn't mean that some don't view sacrificing them as a worthwhile goal. I think the vast majority are repulsed by the concept of sending their children to die or even indoctrinating them to do so. Does that mean it doesn't happen? Obviously it does. The main perpatrators of the indoctrination are the activist groups and the PA itself. The PA sponsors TV programs including pop music videos, classes in schools and textbooks. While I am sure there are jewish parents that are just as vile in their indoctrination of hatred towards palestinians in general, I don't believe that there exists the same level of systematic, official indoctrination of overt hatred.
And to return to why the children were being discussed by bunge and me, would you feel that boy, being a child, must be absolutally ruled out as a target by the Israeli's because of his age? If they weren't able to convince him to surrender, would his death have been murder?
Show me that kid.
the Intifada is a popular uprising. It's not organized like an army attack. Hamas doesn't have to pull kids out into the streets because they are allready on the streets. Most parents can't keep them home. And even if they can they are not safe. Like the Amnesty report points out. If army bulldozer came razing through my neighborhood. I would be out on the streets throwing stones myself. If a sniper shot my kid feeding pigeons I would fucking make my own suicide-belt.
And go blow myself up with as many of those soldiers i could. If I lived this way all my life and saw my people dying every single day. Hell, I might even go for some of those civilians setteling illegally on my ancestors land.
Originally posted by rashumon
Excuse me??? Which states apart from Egypt and Jordan (both have signed a land for peace deals with Israel) have accepted the right of Israel to exist?
Please explain what racial segregation are you talking about?
1.that bollox about founding and funding Hamas is pure BS! While its true that originally when Hamas was a mere civilian religious group with no clear political and military/terrorist branches and aims Israel favouring it over Arafat?s terrorist Fatah as a Palestinian representative (this was in the late 80s) from the moment its changed it ideology and course it became Israel?s enemy no1. to claim Israel has founded it is just a pathetic diversionary tactic.
2. As for the WOMD ? Israel is a state under an existential threat! Why should it not arrange it self with an insurance policy in case its conventional military system fails? Why are countries such as France and the UK (who are not under any threat from anyone) require these weapons while Israel which has had it?s neighbours try and destroy it 3 times in the past 56 years is a called as a pariah for holding on to fewer & less grandiose weapons?
The PLO / PA has accepted the right of Israel to exist. Should be sufficient for you. Israel did secretly fund Hamas to rival PLO. And Israel is not under an existentional threat. This is newspeak. It hasn't been for decades.
Originally posted by Harald
Point one is wrong. The IDF frequently kills innocent people on purpose. Snipers to kids, snipers to journalists, you name it. Shame you won't take either the UN's word for it, or Amnesty's word for it ... in fact, the only word you will take is the IDF's word. But you are wrong. Wrong. Wrong. I've seen footage myself that can only be purposeful murder of innocent civilians. Happens all the time. In addition, you may take bulldozing a house you know contains innocents as necessary military action, even though it's against international law. I still call it murder.
Yes there have been a few isolated cases where soldiers have acted criminally and killed innocents on purpose ? but these actions are rare and in most cases investigations are held and charges brought! There is no policy of killing civilians in the IDF! It is a clear policy of the Palestinian groups however!
Name me one case where the PA has actually charged anyone involved in terrorism in the past 3.5 years!! I can certainly give you a few where Israelis have been charged
Originally posted by Harald
Second point; also cobblers. The absolutely mind-boggling amount of munitions the allies dropped on Iraq, even with their incredible 'precision' clusterbombs and cruise missiles, resulted in over 10000 deaths. Only. With just bulldozers, bullets and Hellfires the Israelis are managing thousands of innocents a year. Do the math.
]
Thousands of innocents a year?! In total since the start of the Intefada some 3000 Palestinians (most of which were combatants) and 1000 Israelis have been killed show me where that ridiculous ?thousands a year? of yours comes form
Weapons used in Iraq by the allies are almost the same as used by Israel, only Israel is far more careful using them so as to not harm civilians ? look at the numbers ? they speak for themselves!
With a ratio of 2/10 civilians to millitants over two years. Thousands is not uncorrect.
Originally posted by New
The PLO / PA has accepted the right of Israel to exist. Should be sufficient for you. Israel did secretly fund Hamas to rival PLO. And Israel is not under an existentional threat. This is newspeak. It hasn't been for decades.
LOL New, you know full well that this was merely make believe! in practice they are still committed to the elimination of the "criminal colonial Zionist entity? as they still call it (just watch PA TV on any given day and see the incitement for yourself). Have they cancelled the Palestinian charter? Have they curbed Hamas and IJ who still talk regularly about the destruction of the ?usurper state??
You know they have not!
Anyway the PLO has never been an existential threat to Israel but countries such as Saudi, Syria, Libya, and most of all Iran certainly are. All are armed to the teeth and most are in possession of WOMD and Iran will soon have the big one! Iran also has ballistic missiles that can reach Israel easily.
Originally posted by New
I would fucking make my own suicide-belt.
And go blow myself up with as many of those soldiers i could. If I lived this way all my life and saw my people dying every single day. .
Yeah i would probably do the same. But that's not the Palestinian tactic is it!
Would you go and kill those innocents who have nothing to do with any of this (and who might actually be your supporters) in a Tel Aviv or a Jerusalem restaurant? coz that's what they are doing...
If they were only targeting soldiers it would be a whole different story... that would be a respectable guerila war that many would find hard to condemn!
Its all about cause and effect! Some 50 Palestinians have been killed in the past 8 days in the IDF operations (12 of which were civilians) these were direct results of the 18 Israelis killed in the previous week (13 soldiers and 5 civilians ? a pregnant mother and her 4 children murdered by a Hamas gunman at point blank)
Originally posted by rashumon
Yeah i would probably do the same. But that's not the Palestinian tactic is it!
Would you go and kill those innocents who have nothing to do with any of this (and who might actually be your supporters) in a Tel Aviv or a Jerusalem restaurant? coz that's what they are doing...
If they were only targeting soldiers it would be a whole different story... that would be a respectable guerila war that many would find hard to condemn!
Oh no you didn't. You said "respectible Guerilla war" as if such a beast existed. Guerilla wars include civilian terrorism (re FARC for the last 30 years or the Tamel tigers, or conflict in Congo, Sudan, or dare I say Iraq). Guerilla wars are messy and result in many civilain deaths, usually in high profile incidents. Guerilla wars are fought by inferior malitias or armies against superior armed and trained forces because the "shock and awe" are intended to deflate popular support for a conflict on the side of the superior force. It's the nature of guerilla war to turn stomaches. They are not civil affairs where both sides agree to terms and fight under those terms. They are necessarily disgusting. For you to even propose the idea of a respecitble guerilla war is simply nieve and dishonest.
I'm not advocating either side of this conflict, I'm decrying the use of the term respectible when tied to guerilla war.
Originally posted by rashumon
LOL New, you know full well that this was merely make believe! in practice they are still committed to the elimination of the "criminal colonial Zionist entity? as they still call it (just watch PA TV on any given day and see the incitement for yourself). Have they cancelled the Palestinian charter? Have they curbed Hamas and IJ who still talk regularly about the destruction of the ?usurper state??
You know they have not!
They have suspended parts of the charter, yes.
Now is it me or you how is a victim of propaganda?
I think you know how propaganda works. hint: god/evil, us/them...
Originally posted by rashumon
Yeah i would probably do the same. But that's not the Palestinian tactic is it!
Would you go and kill those innocents who have nothing to do with any of this (and who might actually be your supporters) in a Tel Aviv or a Jerusalem restaurant? coz that's what they are doing...
If they were only targeting soldiers it would be a whole different story... that would be a respectable guerila war that many would find hard to condemn!
look at the ratio. Palestinians are ten (10!!!) times more successful in targeting soldiers than israel is with palestinian millitants. explain.
Originally posted by New
They have suspended parts of the charter, yes.
Now is it me or you how is a victim of propaganda?
I think you know how propaganda works. hint: god/evil, us/them...
No they havn't suspended anything - not really!
Is Syria still officially in a state of War with Israel 37 years after 1967?
Does Syria have WOMD?
Is Iran developing nuclear capabilities? Is Iran advocating the anihilation of the "Zionist entity"?
Does Saudi have one of the best (US) Equiped and largest military in the world?
Has Saudi ever signed a peace deal with Israel?
Does Saudi accept Israel's right to exist?
(these are only 3 examples there are more...)
Originally posted by New
look at the ratio. Palestinians are ten (10!!!) times more successful in targeting soldiers than israel is with palestinian millitants. explain.
where do you get this figure from?
Israeli army helicopter kills at least 20 protestors with missiles...
Well, just to drag us all back to reality kicking and screaming - the number of Palestinian casualties in that incident was actually 8 and a few of these are suspected to have been combatants.
There are also reports that Hamas gunman have murdered 2 palestinian children just before this incident took place... I'll find a link for a report and post it shortly...
Originally posted by Randycat99
Well, that explains how easily SH lead you by the nose. The more practical and functionality-minded among us know that such evidence can be offered via unobstructed inspections and proper/comprehensive documentation- "everything" accounted for and inventoried. Political waffling to "save face" in lieu of full disclosure is just not going to cut it here.
Interestingly enough, in logical discourse proving a negative is also referred to as an 'appeal to ignorance'
Originally posted by Harald
Genius! Every single apartment in the building, on every one of its multiple floors, was clearly sheltering a single Hamas member.
Do you honestly credit that as a possibility?
That the occupants of a single buidling could be collectively sheltering Hamas? Sure. It's not like the occupants would likely be unaware that Hamas was in the building...I mean even Israel knew.
Originally posted by New
The PLO / PA has accepted the right of Israel to exist. Should be sufficient for you. Israel did secretly fund Hamas to rival PLO. And Israel is not under an existentional threat. This is newspeak. It hasn't been for decades.
Speaking of newspeak.
Originally posted by faust9
I'm not advocating either side of this conflict, I'm decrying the use of the term respectible when tied to guerilla war.
Fair enough ? I agree that the term respectable is not the right one to use when guerrilla war is discussed ? my mistake.
I am however trying to point out a very important difference here. there have been many cases in history where guerrilla fighters did not compel themselves to the level of barbarity and senseless slaughter as practiced by the Muslim terrorists of our time? Zionist resistance to the British Mandate authorities during the 40s for example, was focused on military and strategic targets, same applies to the first Palestinian intefada of the late 80s where operations were mainly carried out against IDF targets and Israeli civilians were generally left out of the fighting (no suicide bombings or mass targeting of Israelis inside Israel proper). that tactic won the Palestinians many friends in Israeli society and laid the ground for the Oslo process... sure enough many innocents died as a result of these attacks (including Jews, Brits and Arabs in both cases) but the target of the operations was always of the military or administrative type. another classic example of this was the war Hizbulah was waging against the IDF in southern Lebanon up until the Israeli withdrawal in 2000 - civilians were also generally left out of this conflict.
Note that in all these examples civilian casualties from both sides were kept at a minimum and in all cases the insurgents were far inferior in terms of military capability but were still able to win the day and achieve their political aim despite this military inferiority. something I doubt very much Palestinians will ever achieve in the current Intefada unless they choose different tactics...
For example, Imagine a scenario where Hezbollah instead of meticulously focusing on fighting against the IDF within southern Lebanon?s Israeli created security zone would have been using whatever they had to shell northern Israeli cities and killing Israelis in their homes. can anyone seriously suggest that this would have led to an Israeli withdrawal? In fact the opposite is probably what would have happened, i.e. Israel would have expanded the security zone and escalated their offensive operations in order to defend their civilians. Average Israelis would never really ask themselves ?why the hell are our boys lingering in southern Lebanon? (like they did in reality and which led to the eventual withdrawal) instead all they would say to their politicians is ?"hit the bastards as hard as you can! And who cares if a few Lebanese villagers get killed"? Do you see what I mean???
Same applied to many other guerrilla struggles in the past 100 years around the world ? of course passers by and non-combatants were being killed in many cases by both sides and I doubt those guerrilla forces gave much moral thought to these poor innocents who got in the way of their attacks but the point is that these were not their primary targets.
This is very different from the way the PA, Hamas and IJ operate!
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=20934
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/430200.html
When the procession with armed men in its midst set out in the direction of the forces, Zakai tried to speak with the community leaders in Rafah. The head of the Liaison and Coordination Administration, Colonel Poli Mordecai, phoned Nasser Saraj, the head of the Civil Committee in the city. Had the Liaison and Coordination Administration sufficed, they would not have needed the tank commander. Saraj, a respected individual, formerly the director-general of the Ministry of Trade and Industry in the Palestinian Authority, listened to Colonel Mordecai's pleas, but took no steps to prevent the disaster.
When men obeyed the calls over the loudspeakers to turn themselves in to the IDF authorities (and to the intelligence people who wanted to question them), they were confronted by members of the terror organizations, who opened fire on them and killed two children. A senior officer in Gaza reported yesterday that the IDF have in their possession pictures of this incident, of Palestinians killing their children. He expressed amazement as to why the army has refrained from publishing them.
As the procession approached the line of buildings behind which the IDF tanks and APCs were located, the commanders feared that the mob would overrun the forces and damage the vehicles; that from within the ranks of the demonstrators, rocket-propelled grenades and anti-tank missiles would be launched at the armored vehicles. S., who bears the scar of a Faggot missile that injured him in Lebanon, knew full well what an agile anti-tank weapon, from an effective distance, can do to a tank. And he also knew what has not been made public: The armored force towards which the demonstrators were advancing, was not the most advanced force. Ahead of it, hidden by camouflage, for observation and for sharpshooting and at the ready for an additional operation, were teams from Egoz and the Golani elite unit. If the demonstration was unwittingly to come between them and the armored force, the fighters of the special operations unit and Egoz would have been encircled. S., Zuckerman and Zakai would not have countenanced such a situation in any case and certainly not when it involved their comrades at arms. When the tank shells penetrated the abandoned building, the first of the demonstrators had reached the other side of the structure, and were hit.
Originally posted by rashumon
No they havn't suspended anything - not really!
yes the have, even if it doesn't fit with your world view.
Is Syria still officially in a state of War with Israel 37 years after 1967?
Who has refused to give back occupied syrian land? The blame for this is at least shared.
Does Syria have WOMD?
Does it matter?
Is Iran developing nuclear capabilities? Is Iran advocating the anihilation of the "Zionist entity"?
Yes they are. But I think that's mostly rhetorical bullshit. That my personal opinion.
Does Saudi have one of the best (US) Equiped and largest military in the world?
So? Israel's US equipped Army ranks above it.
Has Saudi ever signed a peace deal with Israel?
They have proposed it. Israel has laughed it of.