Well, just to drag us all back to reality kicking and screaming - the number of Palestinian casualties in that incident was actually 8 and a few of these are suspected to have been combatants.
There are also reports that Hamas gunman have murdered 2 palestinian children just before this incident took place... I'll find a link for a report and post it shortly...
This was what Haaretz wrote just after the incident.
The Haaretz piece is not a news-article.
I'll believe that claim about Hamas killing children when I see those photos. The IDF has not been known as a very reliable source and your "Independent Media Review Analysis" site doesn't really seem very independent (as in neutral).
That the occupants of a single buidling could be collectively sheltering Hamas? Sure. It's not like the occupants would likely be unaware that Hamas was in the building...I mean even Israel knew.
I bet those nasty children were in on it to, rigth?
Even if your absurd notions were right, it still doesn't make it okay to kill civilians.
No one was being killed in Gaza before they started their disastrous Intefada. The only deaths were of Israeli civilians (the ?casualties of peace?) occasionally being killed in the odd suicide bomb going off inside Israel during the Oslo years?
The first Intifada started in 1987, you really are saying that noone in Gaza died before 1987 through the israelic army, you can't be serious, can you?
Well, perhaps you have forgotten that Israel was created illegaly by driving out palestinians from their property, and maybe you also have forgotten the massacres Israel has commited in the fifties in Gaza and Westbank, before Israel has occupied it, by sending out the notorius Unit 101 of Ariel Sharon.
Perhaps you also have forgotten the 67-war against Syria, that lost Golan, against Egypt, that lost Gaza and against Jordan that lost Westbank, during which a lot of palestinians had to die and to leave areas so that military-bases and illegal settlements could be built.
Perhaps you have also forgotten the numerous expropriations so that israelic streets could be built in the occupied areas connecting the settlements with each other and with Israel.
Perhaps you have also forgotten the deliberate killings of civilians in order to break up civilian resistance, and the massimprisonments in order to break the will of armed resistance against Israel's army, the torturings in israelic prisons in order to gain information about resistance-fighters, and more important in order to create a collaboration-net in the occupied areas..
You also seem to forget the weeklong curfews, the desctruction of harvests and homes as collective punishments, even before the intifada.
You also seem to forget the acts of the terroristic settlers since 67.
You also seem to forget the air-bombardments of refuggee-camps in the occupied areas and also in Lebanon, Sabra and Shatila with the following massacres by Israel-supported christian mercaineries under the eyes and instructions of Ariel Sharon's army.
There is much more than that and most of it happened before the intifada.
yes the have, even if it doesn't fit with your world view.
You know they have not ? prove it if you say they did!
When was the charter changed?
What is the new text?
Are their actions in the past 3 years compatible with an axceptance of the right of Israel to exist in peace next to them and with their commitments under the Oslo accords they have signed?
Quote:
Who has refused to give back occupied syrian land? The blame for this is at least shared.
Excuse me? Israel offered to withdraw from the Golan at least 3 times in the past 10 years ? under PMs Rabin, Netanyahu and Barak. the issue on which negotiations broke down was that the Syrians demanded negotiations be started from the point of Israel agreeing to 100% of the Syrian demands and there was absolutely no good will coming from the Syrian side ? Barak was practically begging Assad to enter negotiations with Israel ? Assad simply demanded a full withdrawal before any real talk would take place that?s hardly acceptable way to make peace between enemies.
Quote:
Does it matter?
When Syria is still claiming to be at a state of war with Israel (37 years after the 6 day war) whose right to exist It has never accepted, and while it funds Hizbullah and Hamas and occupies Lebanon ? it sure as hell matters!
Quote:
Yes they are. But I think that's mostly rhetorical bullshit. That my personal opinion.
Ok, that?s fine then ? if New reckons it?s mostly ?rhetorical BS? that?s fine then ? we can all berry our heads in the sand again.. nothing to worry about at all?.
Quote:
So? Israel's US equipped Army ranks above it.
So what? It still poses a massive threat in military terms if a war ever erupted again in the middle east Israel would probably be able to survive a Saudi attack on its own but combined with an Egyptian, Syrian and possibly Iranian attack this can be devastating?
Israel?s WOMDs are an insurance policy against these threats.
And at any rate even a military conflict with one of these foes would result in massive casualties ? why should Israelis be willing to accept such a risk?
Your logic is most bizarre here!
Quote:
They have proposed it. Israel has laughed it of.
What? When has Israel laughed an Arab peace proposal off? Your being flippant here!
There was the Saudi peace initiative from 2002 which included full ROR for Palestinians refugees (effectively meaning the destruction of Israel) ? some peace offer?.
At any rate Israel has never rejected that offer it was actually quite welcoming of the initiative ? I recall Israel?s FM at the time Peres calling it ?an interesting positive initiative worthy of further discussion? the reason it never got anywhere was lack of real political will to promote it on the part of those who made it in the first place. Where was the offer of direct consultation and negotiations between Israel and Saudi? That was what Peres was advocating at the time?
OK, please show me how their figures prove your silly assertion that "Palestinians are ten (10!!!) times more successful in targeting soldiers than israel is with palestinian millitants."
The first Intifada started in 1987, you really are saying that noone in Gaza died before 1987 through the israelic army, you can't be serious, can you?
No that?s not what I?m saying ? but I am saying that the IDF has not done a major operation in Gaza such as the one last week for decades. And the before the Palestinians launched their current disastrous intefada far fewer Palestinians were being killed there annually as a result of Israeli security operations. We?re talking single digit numbers and during many years there have been none at all?remember? There was a peace process? negotiations, the PA was established? Israel handed sovereign control over to the Palestinians etc?
Quote:
Well, perhaps you have forgotten that Israel was created illegaly by driving out palestinians from their property, and maybe you also have forgotten the massacres Israel has commited in the fifties in Gaza and Westbank, before Israel has occupied it, by sending out the notorius Unit 101 of Ariel Sharon.
Illegally? Ever heard about UN resolution 181 that partitioned the British mandate of Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish states? It was the Arabs who have illegally rejected that resolution and declared ?a war of annihilation? against the Jewish part. luckily they lost the war?
Quote:
Perhaps you also have forgotten the 67-war against Syria, that lost Golan, against Egypt, that lost Gaza and against Jordan that lost Westbank, during which a lot of palestinians had to die and to leave areas so that military-bases and illegal settlements could be built.
No trust me I have not forgotten the 67 war ? another ?illegal? war that was brought upon Israel in order to eliminate it and exterminate its Jewish population? luckily here again Israel managed to win. If you start a war do not be surprised when your people die as a result!
Quote:
Perhaps you have also forgotten the numerous expropriations so that israelic streets could be built in the occupied areas connecting the settlements with each other and with Israel.
No I haven?t and I have always been against the policy of building settlements in the WB&G
Quote:
You also seem to forget the weeklong curfews, the desctruction of harvests and homes as collective punishments, even before the intifada.
Before the current intefada 95% of WB&G Palestinians were living under the PA therefore if any of these things were taking place during the Oslo years it must have been the PA doing them.
Have you any examples?
Quote:
You also seem to forget the acts of the terroristic settlers since 67.
As I have said ? I have never supported these people and believe they should be punished according to Israeli law whenever they brake it ? which does seem to happen a lot!
Quote:
There is much more than that and most of it happened before the intifada.
Yes indeed there is!
Sad to see you forget things:
You forget that the Arabs tried to destroy Israel and exterminate its population 3 times in the past 56 years
You forget that that a vast majority of the Arabs and Muslim world has never accepted the right of Israel to exist in peace
You forget that Arabs across the middle east have ethnically cleansed, murdered and expelled their native Jewish communities in countries all over the ME (in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Morocco, Yemen etc..etc,..) some 1 million human beings were brutally cleansed out of these states ? and where previously prosperous Jewish communities existed for generations only a handful (were talking single digit numbers) of Jews are left today.
You forget that the Arbas have killed tens of thousands of Israelis in the past 56 years in numerous massacres, terrorist atrocities and wars of aggression launched against Israel
How is the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division a civilian target?
It is both. It's a millitary command and a civilian Hotel. You are using the same arguments as the IRA used to justify their bombings. I hope your comfortable with that.
Edit: there where also several civilian agencies operating from the building.
It is both. It's a millitary command and a civilian Hotel. You are using the same arguments as the IRA used to justify their bombings. I hope your comfortable with that.
Edit: there where also several civilian agencies operating from the building.
I'm not justifying anything! I have never suggested I supported any of these actions ? read my post again!
I'm was however commenting on the cardinal difference between Guerilla war (giving the examples of Hezbollah, and Jewish resistance groups to the mandate authorities) and plain useless and senseless terrorism as practiced by the likes of Hamas, IJ, PA and AQ?
There is a clear distinction between the two methods and its very important to note the difference.
I'm not justifying anything! I have never suggested I supported any of these actions ? read my post again!
I'm was however commenting on the cardinal difference between Guerilla war (giving the examples of Hezbollah, and Jewish resistance groups to the mandate authorities) and plain useless and senseless terrorism as practiced by the likes of Hamas, IJ, PA and AQ?
There is a clear distinction between the two methods and its very important to note the difference.
Get it?
Deir Yassin?
To call irgun a "jewish resistance group" is like calling the 911-attackers resistance-figthers. Resistance against what? Since When did resistance-fighters occupy land and send hundreds of thousands of the civilian populace into refuge?
To call irgun a "jewish resistance group" is like calling the 911-attackers resistance-figthers. Resistance against what? Since When did resistance-fighters occupy land and send hundreds of thousands of the civilian populace into refuge?
Without even getting into the inaccuracy of the above description (which is BS) I would like to note that I was refering to the actions of the Jewish organisations PRIOR to the war of 48! operations aimed against the British - understand?
Without even getting into the inaccuracy of the above description (which is BS) I would like to note that I was refering to the actions of the Jewish organisations PRIOR to the war of 48! operations aimed against the British - understand?
I know. In what way is it "resistance"?
And btw, jewish millitary action against arabs and occupation of arab land started well before 48.
Re Dir Yassin ? the events around that story are way too blurry to make out a definitive version of what really happened there the story tilts depending on who tells it.. and there is no conclusive evidence being presented to backup the claim a masscare took place there!
BTW Dir Yassin was definitely a strategic issue ? the village was overlooking the road to Jerusalem where Jewish convoys supplying the besieged Israeli part of the city were daily being attacked and disrupted.
Just for balance there have been numerous Palestinian massacres of Israeli civilians during the 48 war ? hundreds (if not thousands) of non combatant Israelis have been murdered by Arab armies and Faddyin forces in cold blood in these incidents.
yes the have, even if it doesn't fit with your world view
You know they have not ? prove it if you say they did!
When was the charter changed?
What is the new text?
Are their actions in the past 3 years compatible with an axceptance of the right of Israel to exist in peace next to them and with their commitments under the Oslo accords they have signed?
The PA (not hamas, Al-aqsa or Jihad or any other nutcase group) have acted more in accordance with the Oslo agreement and the Roadmap, than the Government of Israel has. There has been writen an american report on it. I'll try to find it.
Who has refused to give back occupied syrian land? The blame for this is at least shared.
Excuse me? Israel offered to withdraw from the Golan at least 3 times in the past 10 years ? under PMs Rabin, Netanyahu and Barak. the issue on which negotiations broke down was that the Syrians demanded negotiations be started from the point of Israel agreeing to 100% of the Syrian demands and there was absolutely no good will coming from the Syrian side ? Barak was practically begging Assad to enter negotiations with Israel ? Assad simply demanded a full withdrawal before any real talk would take place that?s hardly acceptable way to make peace between enemies.
link?
Quote:
When Syria is still claiming to be at a state of war with Israel (37 years after the 6 day war) whose right to exist It has never accepted, and while it funds Hizbullah and Hamas and occupies Lebanon ? it sure as hell matters!
No it doesn't. Because Syria has never shown any intention of giving WOMD to these organisations. Hizbullah is btw, iranian founded, not Syrian.
And israel has WMOD themselves. So there is not direct threat here.
Quote:
Originally posted by New:
Yes they are. But I think that's mostly rhetorical bullshit. That my personal opinion.
Ok, that?s fine then ? if New reckons it?s mostly ?rhetorical BS? that?s fine then ? we can all berry our heads in the sand again.. nothing to worry about at all?.
Fine, I guess you took every Soviet and US statement during the cold war at face-value to?
How about US / China rethorics?
Quote:
Originally posted by New:
So? Israel's US equipped Army ranks above it.
So what? It still poses a massive threat in military terms if a war ever erupted again in the middle east Israel would probably be able to survive a Saudi attack on its own but combined with an Egyptian, Syrian and possibly Iranian attack this can be devastating?
Israel?s WOMDs are an insurance policy against these threats.
And at any rate even a military conflict with one of these foes would result in massive casualties ? why should Israelis be willing to accept such a risk?
Your logic is most bizarre here!
You gave the answer yourself. With Israels WOMD they have nothing to fear.
The corrupt saudi regime has more use for those weapons against their own people.
Quote:
Originally posted by New:
They have proposed it. Israel has laughed it of.
What? When has Israel laughed an Arab peace proposal off? Your being flippant here!
There was the Saudi peace initiative from 2002 which included full ROR for Palestinians refugees (effectively meaning the destruction of Israel) ? some peace offer?.
At any rate Israel has never rejected that offer it was actually quite welcoming of the initiative ? I recall Israel?s FM at the time Peres calling it ?an interesting positive initiative worthy of further discussion? the reason it never got anywhere was lack of real political will to promote it on the part of those who made it in the first place. Where was the offer of direct consultation and negotiations between Israel and Saudi? That was what Peres was advocating at the time?
The Israeli minister of education Limore Levnant on Sunday quoted the Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon as saying during a session for the Israeli Cabinet on Sunday that the Saudi initiative aims at replacing UN resolution 242. He noted that is considered a very grave matter and therefore he ( Sharon) cannot accept this initiative in its current formula. The Israeli radio reported.
Right after that. Israel started it's most intesive "incursion" in 17 months. leaving 11 palestinians dead.
Comments
Originally posted by rashumon
where do you get this figure from?
B'tselem
Originally posted by rashumon
Well, just to drag us all back to reality kicking and screaming - the number of Palestinian casualties in that incident was actually 8 and a few of these are suspected to have been combatants.
There are also reports that Hamas gunman have murdered 2 palestinian children just before this incident took place... I'll find a link for a report and post it shortly...
This was what Haaretz wrote just after the incident.
The Haaretz piece is not a news-article.
I'll believe that claim about Hamas killing children when I see those photos. The IDF has not been known as a very reliable source and your "Independent Media Review Analysis" site doesn't really seem very independent (as in neutral).
Originally posted by Tulkas
That the occupants of a single buidling could be collectively sheltering Hamas? Sure. It's not like the occupants would likely be unaware that Hamas was in the building...I mean even Israel knew.
I bet those nasty children were in on it to, rigth?
Even if your absurd notions were right, it still doesn't make it okay to kill civilians.
Originally posted by rashumon
Zionist resistance to the British Mandate authorities during the 40s for example, was focused on military and strategic targets,...
HAHAHA!
Bombing of the King David hotel...
Originally posted by rashumon
No one was being killed in Gaza before they started their disastrous Intefada. The only deaths were of Israeli civilians (the ?casualties of peace?) occasionally being killed in the odd suicide bomb going off inside Israel during the Oslo years?
The first Intifada started in 1987, you really are saying that noone in Gaza died before 1987 through the israelic army, you can't be serious, can you?
Well, perhaps you have forgotten that Israel was created illegaly by driving out palestinians from their property, and maybe you also have forgotten the massacres Israel has commited in the fifties in Gaza and Westbank, before Israel has occupied it, by sending out the notorius Unit 101 of Ariel Sharon.
Perhaps you also have forgotten the 67-war against Syria, that lost Golan, against Egypt, that lost Gaza and against Jordan that lost Westbank, during which a lot of palestinians had to die and to leave areas so that military-bases and illegal settlements could be built.
Perhaps you have also forgotten the numerous expropriations so that israelic streets could be built in the occupied areas connecting the settlements with each other and with Israel.
Perhaps you have also forgotten the deliberate killings of civilians in order to break up civilian resistance, and the massimprisonments in order to break the will of armed resistance against Israel's army, the torturings in israelic prisons in order to gain information about resistance-fighters, and more important in order to create a collaboration-net in the occupied areas..
You also seem to forget the weeklong curfews, the desctruction of harvests and homes as collective punishments, even before the intifada.
You also seem to forget the acts of the terroristic settlers since 67.
You also seem to forget the air-bombardments of refuggee-camps in the occupied areas and also in Lebanon, Sabra and Shatila with the following massacres by Israel-supported christian mercaineries under the eyes and instructions of Ariel Sharon's army.
There is much more than that and most of it happened before the intifada.
Nightcrawler
Originally posted by New
yes the have, even if it doesn't fit with your world view.
You know they have not ? prove it if you say they did!
When was the charter changed?
What is the new text?
Are their actions in the past 3 years compatible with an axceptance of the right of Israel to exist in peace next to them and with their commitments under the Oslo accords they have signed?
Who has refused to give back occupied syrian land? The blame for this is at least shared.
Excuse me? Israel offered to withdraw from the Golan at least 3 times in the past 10 years ? under PMs Rabin, Netanyahu and Barak. the issue on which negotiations broke down was that the Syrians demanded negotiations be started from the point of Israel agreeing to 100% of the Syrian demands and there was absolutely no good will coming from the Syrian side ? Barak was practically begging Assad to enter negotiations with Israel ? Assad simply demanded a full withdrawal before any real talk would take place that?s hardly acceptable way to make peace between enemies.
Does it matter?
When Syria is still claiming to be at a state of war with Israel (37 years after the 6 day war) whose right to exist It has never accepted, and while it funds Hizbullah and Hamas and occupies Lebanon ? it sure as hell matters!
Yes they are. But I think that's mostly rhetorical bullshit. That my personal opinion.
Ok, that?s fine then ? if New reckons it?s mostly ?rhetorical BS? that?s fine then ? we can all berry our heads in the sand again.. nothing to worry about at all?.
So? Israel's US equipped Army ranks above it.
So what? It still poses a massive threat in military terms if a war ever erupted again in the middle east Israel would probably be able to survive a Saudi attack on its own but combined with an Egyptian, Syrian and possibly Iranian attack this can be devastating?
Israel?s WOMDs are an insurance policy against these threats.
And at any rate even a military conflict with one of these foes would result in massive casualties ? why should Israelis be willing to accept such a risk?
Your logic is most bizarre here!
They have proposed it. Israel has laughed it of.
What? When has Israel laughed an Arab peace proposal off? Your being flippant here!
There was the Saudi peace initiative from 2002 which included full ROR for Palestinians refugees (effectively meaning the destruction of Israel) ? some peace offer?.
At any rate Israel has never rejected that offer it was actually quite welcoming of the initiative ? I recall Israel?s FM at the time Peres calling it ?an interesting positive initiative worthy of further discussion? the reason it never got anywhere was lack of real political will to promote it on the part of those who made it in the first place. Where was the offer of direct consultation and negotiations between Israel and Saudi? That was what Peres was advocating at the time?
Originally posted by New
B'tselem
OK, please show me how their figures prove your silly assertion that "Palestinians are ten (10!!!) times more successful in targeting soldiers than israel is with palestinian millitants."
Originally posted by New
HAHAHA!
Bombing of the King David hotel...
Well, considering that the King David Hotel was the British Mandate Authorites' HQ, I think you have just done a splendid job proving my point.
If a Government HQ is not a strategic target, then what is... prey tell me?!
Taken from your link:
The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division
Originally posted by Nightcrawler
The first Intifada started in 1987, you really are saying that noone in Gaza died before 1987 through the israelic army, you can't be serious, can you?
No that?s not what I?m saying ? but I am saying that the IDF has not done a major operation in Gaza such as the one last week for decades. And the before the Palestinians launched their current disastrous intefada far fewer Palestinians were being killed there annually as a result of Israeli security operations. We?re talking single digit numbers and during many years there have been none at all?remember? There was a peace process? negotiations, the PA was established? Israel handed sovereign control over to the Palestinians etc?
Well, perhaps you have forgotten that Israel was created illegaly by driving out palestinians from their property, and maybe you also have forgotten the massacres Israel has commited in the fifties in Gaza and Westbank, before Israel has occupied it, by sending out the notorius Unit 101 of Ariel Sharon.
Illegally? Ever heard about UN resolution 181 that partitioned the British mandate of Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish states? It was the Arabs who have illegally rejected that resolution and declared ?a war of annihilation? against the Jewish part. luckily they lost the war?
Perhaps you also have forgotten the 67-war against Syria, that lost Golan, against Egypt, that lost Gaza and against Jordan that lost Westbank, during which a lot of palestinians had to die and to leave areas so that military-bases and illegal settlements could be built.
No trust me I have not forgotten the 67 war ? another ?illegal? war that was brought upon Israel in order to eliminate it and exterminate its Jewish population? luckily here again Israel managed to win. If you start a war do not be surprised when your people die as a result!
Perhaps you have also forgotten the numerous expropriations so that israelic streets could be built in the occupied areas connecting the settlements with each other and with Israel.
No I haven?t and I have always been against the policy of building settlements in the WB&G
You also seem to forget the weeklong curfews, the desctruction of harvests and homes as collective punishments, even before the intifada.
Before the current intefada 95% of WB&G Palestinians were living under the PA therefore if any of these things were taking place during the Oslo years it must have been the PA doing them.
Have you any examples?
You also seem to forget the acts of the terroristic settlers since 67.
As I have said ? I have never supported these people and believe they should be punished according to Israeli law whenever they brake it ? which does seem to happen a lot!
There is much more than that and most of it happened before the intifada.
Yes indeed there is!
Sad to see you forget things:
You forget that the Arabs tried to destroy Israel and exterminate its population 3 times in the past 56 years
You forget that that a vast majority of the Arabs and Muslim world has never accepted the right of Israel to exist in peace
You forget that Arabs across the middle east have ethnically cleansed, murdered and expelled their native Jewish communities in countries all over the ME (in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Morocco, Yemen etc..etc,..) some 1 million human beings were brutally cleansed out of these states ? and where previously prosperous Jewish communities existed for generations only a handful (were talking single digit numbers) of Jews are left today.
You forget that the Arbas have killed tens of thousands of Israelis in the past 56 years in numerous massacres, terrorist atrocities and wars of aggression launched against Israel
Originally posted by rashumon
Well, considering that the King David Hotel was the British Mandate Authorites' HQ, I think you have just done a splendid job proving my point.
If a Government HQ is not a strategic target, then what is... prey tell me?!
Taken from your link:
The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division
I chose the most israel-friendly, yet accurate link I could find.
Sure it was strategic. It was also an attack against civilians. And thereby an illegal act of terrorism.
All targets are "strategic". Unless they are accidents that is. Even radom killings are strategic. Burning down a village is a well known "strategy".
Deir Yassin was bloody strategic.
Originally posted by New
I chose the most israel-friendly, yet accurate link I could find.
Sure it was strategic. It was also an attack against civilians. And thereby an illegal act of terrorism.
All targets are "strategic". Unless they are accidents that is. Even radom killings are strategic. Burning down a village is a well known "strategy".
Deir Yassin was bloody strategic.
Please explain:
How is the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division a civilian target?
Originally posted by rashumon
Please explain:
How is the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division a civilian target?
It is both. It's a millitary command and a civilian Hotel. You are using the same arguments as the IRA used to justify their bombings. I hope your comfortable with that.
Edit: there where also several civilian agencies operating from the building.
Originally posted by New
It is both. It's a millitary command and a civilian Hotel. You are using the same arguments as the IRA used to justify their bombings. I hope your comfortable with that.
Edit: there where also several civilian agencies operating from the building.
I'm not justifying anything! I have never suggested I supported any of these actions ? read my post again!
I'm was however commenting on the cardinal difference between Guerilla war (giving the examples of Hezbollah, and Jewish resistance groups to the mandate authorities) and plain useless and senseless terrorism as practiced by the likes of Hamas, IJ, PA and AQ?
There is a clear distinction between the two methods and its very important to note the difference.
Get it?
Originally posted by rashumon
I'm not justifying anything! I have never suggested I supported any of these actions ? read my post again!
I'm was however commenting on the cardinal difference between Guerilla war (giving the examples of Hezbollah, and Jewish resistance groups to the mandate authorities) and plain useless and senseless terrorism as practiced by the likes of Hamas, IJ, PA and AQ?
There is a clear distinction between the two methods and its very important to note the difference.
Get it?
Deir Yassin?
To call irgun a "jewish resistance group" is like calling the 911-attackers resistance-figthers. Resistance against what? Since When did resistance-fighters occupy land and send hundreds of thousands of the civilian populace into refuge?
Originally posted by New
Deir Yassin?
To call irgun a "jewish resistance group" is like calling the 911-attackers resistance-figthers. Resistance against what? Since When did resistance-fighters occupy land and send hundreds of thousands of the civilian populace into refuge?
Without even getting into the inaccuracy of the above description (which is BS) I would like to note that I was refering to the actions of the Jewish organisations PRIOR to the war of 48! operations aimed against the British - understand?
Originally posted by rashumon
Without even getting into the inaccuracy of the above description (which is BS) I would like to note that I was refering to the actions of the Jewish organisations PRIOR to the war of 48! operations aimed against the British - understand?
I know. In what way is it "resistance"?
And btw, jewish millitary action against arabs and occupation of arab land started well before 48.
See, even the jewish library notes that millitary operations started nearing the end of WWII.
BTW Dir Yassin was definitely a strategic issue ? the village was overlooking the road to Jerusalem where Jewish convoys supplying the besieged Israeli part of the city were daily being attacked and disrupted.
Just for balance there have been numerous Palestinian massacres of Israeli civilians during the 48 war ? hundreds (if not thousands) of non combatant Israelis have been murdered by Arab armies and Faddyin forces in cold blood in these incidents.
Originally posted by New:
yes the have, even if it doesn't fit with your world view
You know they have not ? prove it if you say they did!
When was the charter changed?
What is the new text?
Are their actions in the past 3 years compatible with an axceptance of the right of Israel to exist in peace next to them and with their commitments under the Oslo accords they have signed?
The PA (not hamas, Al-aqsa or Jihad or any other nutcase group) have acted more in accordance with the Oslo agreement and the Roadmap, than the Government of Israel has. There has been writen an american report on it. I'll try to find it.
Concerning the charter:
Read the bottom part, from this official site.
Originally posted by New:
Who has refused to give back occupied syrian land? The blame for this is at least shared.
Excuse me? Israel offered to withdraw from the Golan at least 3 times in the past 10 years ? under PMs Rabin, Netanyahu and Barak. the issue on which negotiations broke down was that the Syrians demanded negotiations be started from the point of Israel agreeing to 100% of the Syrian demands and there was absolutely no good will coming from the Syrian side ? Barak was practically begging Assad to enter negotiations with Israel ? Assad simply demanded a full withdrawal before any real talk would take place that?s hardly acceptable way to make peace between enemies.
link?
When Syria is still claiming to be at a state of war with Israel (37 years after the 6 day war) whose right to exist It has never accepted, and while it funds Hizbullah and Hamas and occupies Lebanon ? it sure as hell matters!
No it doesn't. Because Syria has never shown any intention of giving WOMD to these organisations. Hizbullah is btw, iranian founded, not Syrian.
And israel has WMOD themselves. So there is not direct threat here.
Originally posted by New:
Yes they are. But I think that's mostly rhetorical bullshit. That my personal opinion.
Ok, that?s fine then ? if New reckons it?s mostly ?rhetorical BS? that?s fine then ? we can all berry our heads in the sand again.. nothing to worry about at all?.
Fine, I guess you took every Soviet and US statement during the cold war at face-value to?
How about US / China rethorics?
Originally posted by New:
So? Israel's US equipped Army ranks above it.
So what? It still poses a massive threat in military terms if a war ever erupted again in the middle east Israel would probably be able to survive a Saudi attack on its own but combined with an Egyptian, Syrian and possibly Iranian attack this can be devastating?
Israel?s WOMDs are an insurance policy against these threats.
And at any rate even a military conflict with one of these foes would result in massive casualties ? why should Israelis be willing to accept such a risk?
Your logic is most bizarre here!
You gave the answer yourself. With Israels WOMD they have nothing to fear.
The corrupt saudi regime has more use for those weapons against their own people.
Originally posted by New:
They have proposed it. Israel has laughed it of.
What? When has Israel laughed an Arab peace proposal off? Your being flippant here!
There was the Saudi peace initiative from 2002 which included full ROR for Palestinians refugees (effectively meaning the destruction of Israel) ? some peace offer?.
At any rate Israel has never rejected that offer it was actually quite welcoming of the initiative ? I recall Israel?s FM at the time Peres calling it ?an interesting positive initiative worthy of further discussion? the reason it never got anywhere was lack of real political will to promote it on the part of those who made it in the first place. Where was the offer of direct consultation and negotiations between Israel and Saudi? That was what Peres was advocating at the time?
There was no mention of return of refugees in the Saudi peace plan.
The Israeli minister of education Limore Levnant on Sunday quoted the Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon as saying during a session for the Israeli Cabinet on Sunday that the Saudi initiative aims at replacing UN resolution 242. He noted that is considered a very grave matter and therefore he ( Sharon) cannot accept this initiative in its current formula. The Israeli radio reported.
Right after that. Israel started it's most intesive "incursion" in 17 months. leaving 11 palestinians dead.
Originally posted by New
I know. In what way is it "resistance"?
And btw, jewish millitary action against arabs and occupation of arab land started well before 48.
See, even the jewish library notes that millitary operations started nearing the end of WWII.
Care to give any exampels? your link sure doesn't