Israeli army helicopter kills at least 20 protestors with missiles...

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  • Reply 201 of 249
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by rashumon

    Care to give any exampels? your link sure doesn't



    edit: sorry, wrong link. and btw, the war starts in may, 48. So this is all prior to the war. Before any arab troops enter palestine.



  • Reply 202 of 249
    rashumonrashumon Posts: 453member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by New

    In what way is it "resistance"?



    To spel it out for you:



    taken from your link:



    At the end of the war, when it became clear that the British government had no intention of altering its anti-Zionist policy, the Haganah began an open, organized struggle against British Mandatory rule in the framework of a unified Jewish Resistance Movement, consisting of Haganah, Irgun Zevai Le'umi - Etzel, and Lohamei Herut Yisrael?Lehi.



    Haganah branches were established at Jewish D.P. [displaced person] camps in Europe and Haganah members accompanied the ?illegal? immigrant boats. In the spring of 1947, David Ben-Gurion took it upon himself to direct the general policy of the Haganah, especially in preparation for impending Arab attack. On May 26 1948, the Provisional Government of Israel decided to transform the Haganah into the regular army of the State, to be called ?Zeva Haganah Le-Yisrael??The Israel Defense Forces.
  • Reply 203 of 249
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    I don't get it...



    How is aiding illgal immigration "resistance"?
  • Reply 204 of 249
    newnew Posts: 3,244member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by rashumon

    ???

    OK, please show me how their figures prove your silly assertion that "Palestinians are ten (10!!!) times more successful in targeting soldiers than israel is with palestinian millitants."




    http://www.btselem.org/English/Stati...Fatalities.asp



    Ok, I admit being a bit wrong.



    If you do the numbers you'll see that palestinians have killed close to an equal number of civilians and soldiers in the territories and 1 soldier to four civilians within Israel. (non of which I in any way condone), leaving the total at about 2 civilians to 1 soldier. While Israel has killed about 3,100 persons, less than 200 of these are targeted killings. A portion are clearly armed persons, but B'tselem has stopped reporting civilian to millitant numbers. Last time I checked it was 10 to 1. I'll try to find more specific statistics.
  • Reply 205 of 249
    Quote:

    Originally posted by rashumon

    No that?s not what I?m saying ? but I am saying that the IDF has not done a major operation in Gaza such as the one last week for decades. And the before the Palestinians launched their current disastrous intefada far fewer Palestinians were being killed there annually as a result of Israeli security operations. We?re talking single digit numbers and during many years there have been none at all?remember? There was a peace process? negotiations, the PA was established? Israel handed sovereign control over to the Palestinians etc?







    ?







    No trust me I have not forgotten the 67 war ? another ?illegal? war that was brought upon Israel in order to eliminate it and exterminate its Jewish population? luckily here again Israel managed to win. If you start a war do not be surprised when your people die as a result!



    ...



    Before the current intefada 95% of WB&G Palestinians were living under the PA therefore if any of these things were taking place during the Oslo years it must have been the PA doing them.

    Have you any examples?



    ...









    You forget that Arabs across the middle east have ethnically cleansed, murdered and expelled their native Jewish communities in countries all over the ME (in Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria, Morocco, Yemen etc..etc,..) some 1 million human beings were brutally cleansed out of these states ? and where previously prosperous Jewish communities existed for generations only a handful (were talking single digit numbers) of Jews are left today.





    1. Your claim of the IDF not conducting major military operations for decades, that's simply not true. And your referring to the Oslo-agreements where the PLO was given control of 95% of the palestinians is also not true, it's more like 5% the PLO was allowed to control.



    2. The wars Israel has fought were not defensive wars, except for the one in 1972. The war in 1948, the one in the fifties, the one in 1967, and the ones in 1978(against Lebanon) and 1982(against Lebanon) were all started by Israel, and later on it was claimed by Israel that the arabic states had started those.

    It's really quite transparent why Israel started those and how it decided the right time to start these wars. You have just to study the immigrations of Jews to Israel over the time from 48 to 67 and you will find a pattern. Whenever Israel had enough jewish immigrants to replace palestinians Israel started a war in order to expand, but not without planning a provokation by commiting massacres in Gaza and Westbank before the wars were started. These massacres forced the surrounding arabic states to publically condemn Israel for it and to threaten the destruction of Israel if it doesn't stop the massacres (otherwise the arabic populations would have toppled the arabic dictatorships).

    In 67 for example Israel started the war by flying jets under the radar to Egypt, Jordan and Syria and destroying all their planes before starting the ground-war.



    Luckily for Israel, the US supports Israel not only military but also diplomatic and ideological, which means that the history-telling of Israel is taking as the real version in the US and backed up by it.



    What one mustn't forget is that the surrounding arabic states have US-puppet-regimes, so whenever Israel started a war and the arabic states defended themselves and somehow made ground-wins in direction to Israel the US calls them back, and forces them to stop their troops.



    The one war in 72 was the only one the arabic states started, but just in order to satisfy the arabic populations and with close talks with the US.



    3. The myth about jews being ethnically cleansed out of the arabic states, so that they had to leave to Israel is a well constructed propaganda-lie of Israel. Quite to the contrary Israel called for all jews in the world in 48 and before to come to Israel to help building it up, and the jews in the arabic states were in a haste to follow that call, as they finally saw their dream come true, the recreation of the ancient Israel (eventhough there was no messiah accompanying that event). They sold their property in the arabic states and left mostly.

    You seem also to forget that the islamic world was it that gave a save haven to the jews during the times they were hunted in Europe, centuries before Hitler's genocide.



    Nightcrawler
  • Reply 206 of 249
    rashumonrashumon Posts: 453member
    Night crawler ? lying wont get you anywhere ? explain to me why is it that people on your side of the fence so often resort to subverting the truth? Is it that you feel your case is too weak to be supported by the facts?



    Your depiction of the history is do flawed and wrong that I don?t even know where to start refuting it but I?ll try ? (even though it would probably not be concise since there are so many lies and twists in what you posted):

    Quote:



    1. Your claim of the IDF not conducting major military operations for decades, that's simply not true.








    OK, if I?m wrong please list for me a few of those major military operations undertaken by the IDF in Gaza during the Oslo years ? take that as a challenge!



    Quote:

    And your referring to the Oslo-agreements where the PLO was given control of 95% of the palestinians is also not true, it's more like 5% the PLO was allowed to control.







    LOL you really are a clown you know that!



    Under the Oslo accords Israel ceded sovereign control over the entire population of the Gaza strip and a vast majority of the Population of the WB to the Palestinian authority!



    http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf22.html#oo



    Israel engaged in negotiations with the Palestinians at Oslo and afterward because Israelis desperately crave peace and because they do not want to control the lives of Palestinians. After withdrawing from most of the Gaza Strip and more than 40 percent of the West Bank, approximately 98 percent of the Palestinian population came under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority. Most of their affairs are now controlled by Yasser Arafat's regime, and if Israel has its way, negotiations will lead to the Palestinian Authority assuming full control over the lives of all the Palestinians living in what will eventually be a Palestinian state.



    Again, if you disagree with these well know facts please provide me with evidence to back your silly lie!

    Quote:



    2. The wars Israel has fought were not defensive wars, except for the one in 1972. The war in 1948, the one in the fifties, the one in 1967, and the ones in 1978(against Lebanon) and 1982(against Lebanon) were all started by Israel, and later on it was claimed by Israel that the arabic states had started those







    Propaganda and BS!



    1948 Israel declared its independence in the midst of massive ethnic strife taken place after the UN passes Resolution 181 (November 29, 1947 ) which called for the establishment of an independent Jewish state and Arab state in the territory that was the British Mandate of Palestine. The Jewish population accepts 181 fully while the Palestinian Arabs and the neighboring Arab states rejected it outright! In the months leading up to the declaration of independence of Israel (May 14 1948 ) violence was expanding all over the territory.



    The UN blamed the Arabs for the violence. The UN Palestine Commission was never permitted by the Arabs or British to go to Palestine to implement the resolution. On February 16, 1948, the Commission reported to the Security Council



    The partition resolution was never suspended or rescinded. Thus, Israel, the Jewish State in Palestine, was born on May 14, as the British finally left the country. Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq) immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were declared by Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League: "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."



    1967

    A combination of bellicose Arab rhetoric, threatening behavior and, ultimately, an act of war left Israel no choice but preemptive action. To do this successfully, Israel needed the element of surprise. Had it waited for an Arab invasion, Israel would have been at a potentially catastrophic disadvantage.



    While Nasser continued to make speeches threatening war, Arab terrorist attacks grew more frequent. In 1965, 35 raids were conducted against Israel. In 1966, the number increased to 41. In just the first four months of 1967, 37 attacks were launched



    On May 15 1967, Israel's Independence Day, Egyptian troops began moving into the Sinai and massing near the Israeli border. By May 18, Syrian troops were prepared for battle along the Golan Heights.



    Nasser ordered the UN Emergency Force, stationed in the Sinai since 1956, to withdraw on May 16. Without bringing the matter to the attention of the General Assembly, as his predecessor had promised, Secretary-General U Thant complied with the demand. After the withdrawal of the UNEF, the Voice of the Arabs proclaimed (May 18, 1967):



    As of today, there no longer exists an international emergency force to protect Israel. We shall exercise patience no more. We shall not complain any more to the UN about Israel. The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence



    An enthusiastic echo was heard May 20 1967 from Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad:



    Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation



    On May 22 1967, Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to all Israeli shipping and all ships bound for Eilat ? this was a clear act of war!. This blockade cut off Israel's only supply route with Asia and stopped the flow of oil from its main supplier, Iran. The following day, President Johnson expressed the belief that the blockade was illegal and unsuccessfully tried to organize an international flotilla to test it.



    Nasser was fully aware of the pressure he was exerting to force Israel's hand. The day after the blockade was set up, he said defiantly: "The Jews threaten to make war. I reply: Welcome! We are ready for war."



    Nasser challenged Israel to fight almost daily. "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight," he said on May 27. The following day, he added: "We will not accept any...coexistence with Israel...Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel....The war with Israel is in effect since 1948."



    King Hussein of Jordan signed a defense pact with Egypt on May 30. Nasser then announced:



    The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.



    President Abdur Rahman Aref of Iraq joined in the war of words:



    "The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map."



    On June 4, Iraq joined the military alliance with Egypt, Jordan and Syria.



    The Arab rhetoric was matched by the mobilization of Arab forces. Approximately 250,000 troops (nearly half in Sinai), more than 2,000 tanks and 700 aircraft ringed Israel.

    By this time, Israeli forces had been on alert for three weeks. The country could not remain fully mobilized indefinitely, nor could it allow its sea lane through the Gulf of Aqaba to be interdicted. Israel's best option was to strike first.On June 5, the order was given to attack Egypt.



    Quote:

    except for the one in 1972.







    you mean 1973 Yom Kippur war (called the October war by the Arabs)? You can?t even get your dates right can you!? At least you admit that it was the Arabs who started that one as well?



    Quote:

    but not without planning a provokation by commiting massacres in Gaza and Westbank before the wars were started. These massacres forced the surrounding arabic states to publically condemn Israel for it and to threaten the destruction of Israel if it doesn't stop the massacres (otherwise the arabic populations would have toppled the arabic dictatorships)







    Oh really??? Hang on I?m lost here ? you say Israel started all those wars, right?! If that was the case why would it need to provoke the Arabs? Either Israel started the wars or the Arabs did (after being provoked by the evil Zionists) make your mind up ?



    And please give me examples of what Israeli massacres led to the wars in 48, 67 and 73 ? facts, dates sources would be welcome!



    Quote:

    Luckily for Israel, the US supports Israel not only military but also diplomatic and ideological, which means that the history-telling of Israel is taking as the real version in the US and backed up by it.







    Yeah yeah we know its all one big evil conspiracy designed to lead the dumb American public down the garden path? of course it is? I mean every one knows Jews control the media and the government and the universities?.

    DUDE! Can you back any of your statements with facts? Anything at all????



    Quote:

    What one mustn't forget is that the surrounding arabic states have US-puppet-regimes, so whenever Israel started a war and the arabic states defended themselves and somehow made ground-wins in direction to Israel the US calls them back, and forces them to stop their troops.







    LOL this is your most ridiculous claim yet! During the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s Arab states surrounding Israel were SOVIET client states not US controlled ?puppets? one of the main reasons the US came close to Israel in the first place was that they both shared a common enemy ? the USSR!!!

    AGAIN, can you give me one (just ONE) example of the US stopping the Arabs achieving their ?well earned? victories over the evil Zionists? Show me an event during the 48, 67, or 73 wars where the US stopped the Arabs by applying diplomatic pressure.



    This statement gets even more funny in light of the fact that the US was the one to stoped Israel (along with France and Britain) from crunching Egypt up in the Suez crisis in 1956 and again in 1973 when IDF forces crossed the Suez and captured the bridgehead to Cairo!
  • Reply 207 of 249
    rashumonrashumon Posts: 453member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Nightcrawler



    3. The myth about jews being ethnically cleansed out of the arabic states, so that they had to leave to Israel is a well constructed propaganda-lie of Israel. Quite to the contrary Israel called for all jews in the world in 48 and before to come to Israel to help building it up, and the jews in the arabic states were in a haste to follow that call, as they finally saw their dream come true, the recreation of the ancient Israel (eventhough there was no messiah accompanying that event). They sold their property in the arabic states and left mostly.

    You seem also to forget that the islamic world was it that gave a save haven to the jews during the times they were hunted in Europe, centuries before Hitler's genocide.



    Nightcrawler




    As for this load of denial (not the Egyptian one) I ask you to explain to me how did this happen:



    Iraq:

    In June 1-2 1941 - during a Nazi inspired rebellion against the British in Iraq by Palestinian and Iraqi forces led by Rashid 'Ali al-Kilani' and the exiled Palestinian leader (a well known mate of Hitler) Hajj Amin al-Husseini. and with the complicity of the police and the army, murdered 180 Jews and wounded almost 1,000 Baghdad.



    With the rise of competing Ba'ath factions in 1963, additional restrictions were placed on the remaining Iraqi Jews. The sale of property was forbidden and all Jews were forced to carry yellow identity cards. After the Six-Day War, more repressive measures were imposed: Jewish property was expropriated; Jewish bank accounts were frozen; Jews were dismissed from public posts; businesses were shut; trading permits were cancelled; telephones were disconnected. Jews were placed under house arrest for long periods of time or restricted to the cities.



    Persecution was at its worst at the end of 1968. Scores were jailed upon the discovery of a local "spy ring" composed of Jewish businessmen. Fourteen men - eleven of them Jews - were sentenced to death in staged trials and hanged in the public squares of Baghdad; others died of torture. On January 27, 1969, Baghdad Radio called upon Iraqis to "come and enjoy the feast." Some 500,000 men, women and children paraded and danced past the scaffolds where the bodies of the hanged Jews swung; the mob rhythmically chanted "Death to Israel" and "Death to all traitors." This display brought a world-wide public outcry that Radio Baghdad dismissed by declaring: "We hanged spies, but the Jews crucified Christ."3 Jews remained under constant surveillance by the Iraqi government. An Iraqi Jew (who later escaped) wrote in his diary in February 1970:



    Libya:

    A savage pogrom in Tripoli on November 5, 1945, killed more than 140 Jews and wounded hundreds more. Almost every synagogue was looted. In June 1948, rioters murdered another 12 Jews and destroyed 280 Jewish homes.



    Thousands of Jews fled the country after Libya was granted independence and membership in the Arab League in 1951. After the Six-Day War, the Jewish population of 7,000 was again subjected to pogroms in which 18 were killed, and many more injured, sparking a near-total exodus that left fewer than 100 Jews in Libya.



    When Col. Qaddafi came to power in 1969, all Jewish property was confiscated and all debts to Jews cancelled. In 1999, the synagogue in Tripoli was was renovated, however, it was not reopened.



    The last Jew living in Libya, Esmeralda Meghnagi, died in February 2002. This marked the end of one of the world's oldest Jewish communities, which traced its origins to the 3rd century BCE..



    Syria:

    When partition was declared in 1947, Arab mobs in Aleppo devastated the 2,500-year-old Jewish community. Scores of Jews were killed and more than 200 homes, shops and synagogues were destroyed. Thousands of Jews illegally fled Syria to go to Israel.



    Shortly after, the Syrian government intensified its persecution of the Jewish population. Freedom of movement was severely restricted. Jews who attempted to flee faced either the death penalty or imprisonment at hard labor. Jews were not allowed to work for the government or banks, could not acquire telephones or driver's licenses, and were barred from buying property. Jewish bank accounts were frozen. An airport road was paved over the Jewish cemetery in Damascus; Jewish schools were closed and handed over to Muslims.



    Syria's attitude toward Jews was reflected in its sheltering of Alois Brunner, one of the most notorious Nazi war criminals. Brunner, a chief aide to Adolf Eichmann, served as an adviser to the Assad regime.



    Egypt:

    Between June and November 1948, bombs set off in the Jewish Quarter of Cairo killed more than 70 Jews and wounded nearly 200. In 1956, the Egyptian government used the Sinai Campaign as a pretext for expelling almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews and confiscating their property. Approximately 1,000 more Jews were sent to prisons and detention camps. On November 23, 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious Affairs, and read aloud in mosques throughout Egypt, declared that "all Jews are Zionists and enemies of the state," and promised that they would be soon expelled. Thousands of Jews were ordered to leave the country. They were allowed to take only one suitcase and a small sum of cash, and forced to sign declarations "donating" their property to the Egyptian government. Foreign observers reported that members of Jewish families were taken hostage, apparently to insure that those forced to leave did not speak out against the Egyptian government.



    Yemen:

    In 1922, the government of Yemen reintroduced an ancient Islamic law requiring that Jewish orphans under age 12 be forcibly converted to Islam.

    In 1947, after the partition vote, Muslim rioters, joined by the local police force, engaged in a bloody pogrom in Aden that killed 82 Jews and destroyed hundreds of Jewish homes. Aden's Jewish community was economically paralyzed, as most of the Jewish stores and businesses were destroyed. Early in 1948, the false accusation of the ritual murder of two girls led to looting.2

    This increasingly perilous situation led to the emigration of virtually the entire Yemenite Jewish community - almost 50,000 - between June 1949 and September 1950.





    these are only a few of the examples I can bring - there are more...



    Thousands of Arab Jews were killed and the rest were ethnically cleansed and chased out of the Arab world by their Muslim neighbors - yet today this fact gets ignored while Israel is blamed for the departure of the Palestinian refugees from its territory. While The ?Right of Return? and compensation for the Palestinian refugees is constantly hailed as essential for achieving peace in the ME ? the plight of the even larger number of Jewish refugees (from Arab countries) gets comfortably ignored by the same people who demand Justice for the Palestinian refugees?



    All together between 900,000 - 1,000,000 Arab Jews became dispossessed refugees - they have lost everything they ever had (after centuries of owning Land, property and money in these Arab lands) and many arrived to Israel penniless.

    Israel absorbed the Jews who fled Arab countries and millions of refugees from Nazi and Soviet Europe in the same time. After brief periods of adjustment, the Jews fleeing life-threatening conditions in other lands became indistinguishable from other Israelis. Today tiny Israel, with relatively few resources, has no "refugee problem" while the wealthy Arab countries, with vast lands and oil riches, cannot find a way to help the Palestinian Arabs (its the Americans and the EU who pay their bills for them). the Arab states have been using and keeping the open sore issue of Palestinian refugees hostage to their political maneuverings against Israel for far too long!
  • Reply 208 of 249
    rashumonrashumon Posts: 453member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by New The PA (not hamas, Al-aqsa or Jihad or any other nutcase group) have acted more in accordance with the Oslo agreement and the Roadmap, than the Government of Israel has.





    You mean like when in 2001 they released all the Hamas and IJ terrorists that they locked up during Oslo?

    You mean when they reneged on all their commitments in Oslo - namely to avoid using violence- and launched the Armed intefada against their negotiating partners?

    Please Give me examples where Israel did not keep up with its commitments under Oslo!

    Quote:

    Concerning the charter:

    Read the bottom part, from this official site.






    Yeah I read it, and?.?? The document says:

    B. Assigns its legal committee with the task of redrafting the Palestinian National Charter in order to present it to the first session of the Palestinian Central Council.

    Such a committee has never been setup and the charter has not been redrafted to change those clauses in it that deny the right of Israel to exist ? saying you will do something ain?t the same as actually doing it!

    As it stands the PC still negates the right of Israel to exist period!

    Quote:

    link?





    http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf22.html#m

    After losing the 1999 election, Benjamin Netanyahu confirmed reports that he had engaged in secret talks with Syrian President Hafez Assad to withdraw from the Golan and maintain a strategic early-warning station on Mount Hermon. Publicly, Assad continued to insist on a total withdrawal with no compromises and indicated no willingness to go beyond agreeing to a far more limited "non-belligerency" deal with Israel than the full peace treaty Israel has demanded

    The election of Ehud Barak stimulated new movement in the peace process, with intensive negotiations held in the United States in January 2000 between Barak and Syrian Foreign Minister Farouk al-Sharaa. These talks raised new hope for the conclusion of a peace treaty, but the discussions did not bear fruit. Hafez Assad died in June 2000 and no further talks have been held as Assad's son and successor, Bashar has moved to consolidate his power. Rhetorically, Bashar has not indicated any shift in Syria's position on the Golan.

    Israel has made clear it is prepared to compromise on the Golan and make significant territorial concessions. The only obstacle is Assad's unwillingness to say yes to peace with Israel.


    Quote:



    You gave the answer yourself. With Israels WOMD they have nothing to fear.

    The corrupt saudi regime has more use for those weapons against their own people.








    Indeed which is why Israel needs WOMD - to deter such lovelies as Iran, Syria and Saudi from ever being tempted to pull the trigger?.



    Quote:

    There was no mention of return of refugees in the Saudi peace plan.







    New, have you ever read that plan? I mean the Arab league doc that describes it?



    http://www.mideastweb.org/saudipeace.htm



    II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.



    194 is what those claiming to demand ROR base their claims on - it can never be implemented for it means the effective destruction of Israel.



    Quote:

    The Israeli minister of education Limore Levnant







    A fairly marginal Likud hawkish politician. What count s is what the PM and the FM say! The following quote is from your BBC link:



    According to European Union's foreign policy chief Javier Solana, who has enthusiastically endorsed the proposal, the Israeli prime minister has "expressed great interest in having more information" on the plan.



    Quote:

    Right after that. Israel started it's most intesive "incursion" in 17 months. leaving 11 palestinians dead.







    New, come-on I thought you had more sense then this?

    The very night that plan was put forward by the Arab league summit in Beirut the Natanya Park Hotel massacre took place during the holiest Jewish feast of the year - the Passover Seder.

    29 pensioners were killed in a suicide bombing that ended a two month period during which some 250 Israelis have been killed in numerous suicide bombings.



    Israel kept its restraint during all those killings until the last one in the Park Hotel in Passover was the last straw ? IDF operation defensive shield was the Israeli answer and since then (and the erection of the security barrier) numbers of Israeli terror casualties have been dropping consistently. The IDF operation had nothing to do with the Arab league meeting or with the Saudi plan proposed in it ? it had everything to do however with the onslaught of senseless killing that was unleashed at the same time by the PA, Hamas and IJ.



    One must ask one self if the fact that the suicide bombers chose to strike at the same time (literally) as the Arab league ministers were meeting in Beirut and publicly endorsing the Saudi initiative bears any hidden or obvious message?



    http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/ter...ims/page5.html
  • Reply 209 of 249
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    rashumon,



    No matter how long your posts are you can't change one fact: you can't blow people up with missles and tank fire, especially not civilians. It doesn't matter if I kicked your dog or put a banana in your tailpipe. You can't blow people up, not even soldiers, without provocation.
  • Reply 210 of 249
    rashumonrashumon Posts: 453member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    rashumon,



    No matter how long your posts are you can't change one fact: you can't blow people up with missles and tank fire, especially not civilians. It doesn't matter if I kicked your dog or put a banana in your tailpipe. You can't blow people up, not even soldiers, without provocation.




    Thanks for that insight.



    Have you even bothered to read my posts?



    So you consider the death of 18 Isarelis (including a pregnant mother and her 4 children) in Gaza in the week prior to the Israeli operation in Rafah to not be a provocation?



    As for the actuall disastrous moment of that tank shell hitting those protestors resulting in the death of 8 of them (not 20 as the thread header suggests) - that was terrible and probably criminal - however there is a wide margine for errors when military actions are taking place and its often very difficult to figure out whether an action was the result of an innocent mistake or intentional purpose to kill.



    as quoted from the Haaretz article above:



    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/430200.html



    When the procession with armed men in its midst set out in the direction of the forces, Zakai tried to speak with the community leaders in Rafah. The head of the Liaison and Coordination Administration, Colonel Poli Mordecai, phoned Nasser Saraj, the head of the Civil Committee in the city. Had the Liaison and Coordination Administration sufficed, they would not have needed the tank commander. Saraj, a respected individual, formerly the director-general of the Ministry of Trade and Industry in the Palestinian Authority, listened to Colonel Mordecai's pleas, but took no steps to prevent the disaster.



    When men obeyed the calls over the loudspeakers to turn themselves in to the IDF authorities (and to the intelligence people who wanted to question them), they were confronted by members of the terror organizations, who opened fire on them and killed two children. A senior officer in Gaza reported yesterday that the IDF have in their possession pictures of this incident, of Palestinians killing their children. He expressed amazement as to why the army has refrained from publishing them.



    As the procession approached the line of buildings behind which the IDF tanks and APCs were located, the commanders feared that the mob would overrun the forces and damage the vehicles; that from within the ranks of the demonstrators, rocket-propelled grenades and anti-tank missiles would be launched at the armored vehicles. S., who bears the scar of a Faggot missile that injured him in Lebanon, knew full well what an agile anti-tank weapon, from an effective distance, can do to a tank. And he also knew what has not been made public: The armored force towards which the demonstrators were advancing, was not the most advanced force. Ahead of it, hidden by camouflage, for observation and for sharpshooting and at the ready for an additional operation, were teams from Egoz and the Golani elite unit. If the demonstration was unwittingly to come between them and the armored force, the fighters of the special operations unit and Egoz would have been encircled. S., Zuckerman and Zakai would not have countenanced such a situation in any case and certainly not when it involved their comrades at arms. When the tank shells penetrated the abandoned building, the first of the demonstrators had reached the other side of the structure, and were hit.
  • Reply 211 of 249
    macjoomacjoo Posts: 3member
    Okay I have to reply to this:

    No matter how you look at it--killing is killing.

    As far as children dying in missile attacks, yes this is very unfortunate, but what is going on here is a war. There will always be civilian casulities...unfortunately unavoidable.

    Things to consider,

    Palestinians use children and women as shields. What the mainstream media does not tell you is that islamic militants hide in these crowds and shoot at IDF forces



    Militants are smuggled into conflict areas via ambulances all the time....wheres the honor in that. What you want israelis to play by the rules but not palestinians? And somehow the israelis are supposed to show restraint and not respond to terrorist acts when palestinian militants target innocent women and children.



    If militants did suicide bombing at IDF bases and military equipment this would be acceptable and honorable warfare...but you will never see this.

    I encourage all to read history....from many sources and perspectives...not just the revisionist left. There is a lot more to this conflict than what is portrayed in the media (ie. biased)
  • Reply 212 of 249
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by MacJoo

    What you want israelis to play by the rules but not palestinians?



    Naturally both sides need to play by the rules. But when one side has nuclear weapons and the other had rocks, I'm not as concerned about the rocks.
  • Reply 213 of 249
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by rashumon

    So you consider the death of 18 Isarelis (including a pregnant mother and her 4 children) in Gaza in the week prior to the Israeli operation in Rafah to not be a provocation?



    No. Had the Palestinians attacked with tanks or planes, then yes, I would.
  • Reply 214 of 249
    macjoomacjoo Posts: 3member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    No. Had the Palestinians attacked with tanks or planes, then yes, I would.



    Dude,

    Yes Israel has nuclear weapons...though no intentions to use them. The strategic implications here is deterence (Great movie (deterence) by the way with Kevin Pollack. The israelis have no intentin of destroying Ertz Israel---though many an Arab nation would.

    Example: Syria, Iran,Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq (Sadam era)---though the IDF Air Force took care of their nuclear capabilities.

    The point here is that if a state-sponsered terrorist nation/dictatorship had nuclear weapons they would/will use them.
  • Reply 215 of 249
    rashumonrashumon Posts: 453member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    Originally posted by rashumon

    So you consider the death of 18 Isarelis (including a pregnant mother and her 4 children) in Gaza in the week prior to the Israeli operation in Rafah to not be a provocation?

    No. Had the Palestinians attacked with tanks or planes, then yes, I would.





    OK , here we see the simple naked truth about your hypocrisy.

    18 dead Israelis ? including a pregnant mother and her 4 children - is OK, but 8 Palestinians is not. and why? because the Israelis were killed by bombs, AK-47 fire and anti tank missiles and the Palestinians were killed by tank fire?.



    You don?t make any moral sense to me!



    A dead person is a dead person! Has nothing to do with what tool was used to kill!
  • Reply 216 of 249
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by rashumon

    A dead person is a dead person! Has nothing to do with what tool was used to kill!



    I disagree.



    Motive and means are certainly an issue here. When Israel is in such a position of military strength, they certainly need to show more restraint. And when my government supports Israel regardless of the level of restraint they do or do not show, then I certainly have a significant problem with the way Israel handles the situation.



    And if a dead person is simply a dead person, why do you keep mentioning a pregnant mother and her 4 children? There's hypocrisy for you.
  • Reply 217 of 249
    rashumonrashumon Posts: 453member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    I disagree.



    Motive and means are certainly an issue here. When Israel is in such a position of military strength, they certainly need to show more restraint. And when my government supports Israel regardless of the level of restraint they do or do not show, then I certainly have a significant problem with the way Israel handles the situation.




    Israel if far more retrained then most any other country in the same position. had Israel not been restrained there would not be 8 or 100 Pali dead but thousands upon thousands...



    Fact is that Isarel, despite dealing with a severe threat to its civilians, and despite loosing nearly 1000 of its people in the past 3.5 years has killed very few Palestinians (less then NATO killed in Kosovo in 1 month of bombing) is proof enough to how restrained and how hard the IDF tries to avoid hurting non combatants.



    Quote:

    And if a dead person is simply a dead person, why do you keep mentioning a pregnant mother and her 4 children? There's hypocrisy for you.



    Now, there's a cheap shot \

    I never said civilians are the same as military men, in fact i have always said that non combatants (Palestinian or Isareli) should never be considered as legitimate targets for anyone! this is why i emphasize the fact these 5 innoncents were murdered (and you know this).



    When I said " A dead person is a dead person" i meant that the method used by others to bring him to that state is irrelevant. point is - he is dead and someone killed him!



    Dead Isarelis - by definition - results in dead Palestinians - that's the way wars are fought! your country and any other country on earth act by the same basic laws of action!
  • Reply 218 of 249
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Sorry, I didn't mean it to be a cheap shot.



    I agree that Israel could wipe out all of the Palestinians with relative ease, even without nuclear weapons. I don't think that's a fair assessment of their restraint though.



    Just like the US solders in Iraq, we could be doing far worse to the people we've put in prison but that doesn't make the limited amout of torture we're responsible for OK.



    Does that make sense?
  • Reply 219 of 249
    rashumonrashumon Posts: 453member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bunge

    Sorry, I didn't mean it to be a cheap shot.



    I agree that Israel could wipe out all of the Palestinians with relative ease, even without nuclear weapons. I don't think that's a fair assessment of their restraint though.




    I agree, I think however that a fair measurement for Israel's restraint is the relatively low number of Palestinian casualties it has caused and the high proportion of combatants within these numbers (considering most combat takes place in highly populated urban areas of the WB&G) - As I have said before the numbers speak for themselves. any human death is truly tragic but the numbers must be measured against comparable results from other conflicts in other parts of the world and when this is done - it becomes obvious that the IDF is way more restrained then most armed forces around the world and takes far greater care with regards to civilian non combatant's lives then most others do under similar circumstances...



    Quote:

    Just like the US solders in Iraq, we could be doing far worse to the people we've put in prison but that doesn't make the limited amout of torture we're responsible for OK.



    Does that make sense?



    Yes I that's better... I agree that many IDF actions are unnecessary, brutal or result in errors which should never have happened. Israel (like any other country at war) has much to answer for - but so do the Palestinians.



    Trying to exnorate Palestinians from responsibility for the consequences of their choices and actions is both condescending and almost bordering on racist because its sends the message that those "innocent" "backwards" natives don't know any better and therefore should not be treated as adult human beings. On the same level is trying to claim Jews can do whatever they like because the Nazis did what they did to them... silly isn't it?!

    Nor is it a valid argument to claim that since Palestinians are the weaker side militarily they should carry less then the full responsibility for their actions - they are still very much capable of inflicting death and destruction on Israel. and don't forget that it only took 18 man armed only with box cutters to bring the WTC down... High Tech weaponry is not necessarily a measurement of destructive potential...



    The only way to avoid these hopeless situations is for the fighting to stop - from both sides not just the Israeli or the Palestinian



    Do you not agree?
  • Reply 220 of 249
    bungebunge Posts: 7,329member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by rashumon

    The only way to avoid these hopeless situations is for the fighting to stop - from both sides not just the Israeli or the Palestinian



    Do you not agree?




    Absolutely.



    I certainly don't support arming the Palestinians so they can 'better' defend themselves, but I also don't support leaving Israel in the occupied territories or settlements. Israel needs to back out of the held land before it can legitimately consider itself defending as opposed to attacking.
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