Michael Moore - Fahrenheit 9/11 (general discussion - merged)

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  • Reply 21 of 405
    faust9faust9 Posts: 1,335member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    I bet you don't even know where that quote came from and the context that surrounded it. You probably don't care, right?



    Well, here's a little more for ya Napels. I know where it came from the question is do you?



    "This is an impressive crowd. The haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite. I call you my base."
  • Reply 22 of 405
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pfflam

    Bush - "some people call you the Elite. . . I call you my base"

    snicker snicker







    I know the suspense is killing you so here:



    Excerpts from the annual Al Smith dinner in New York.



    "Thank you all very much. This is an impressive crowd-- the haves and the have-mores. (Laughter) Some people call you the elite. I call you my base. (Laughter) The woman I just ran into coming off the elevator, she said, "I'd like to give you some advice on what to wear." I said, "well, I appreciate that." She said, "white tie is fine, but you need some more earth tones." (Laughter) Perfectly nice woman. I think her name is Naomi or something like that. The odd thing was she handed me a bill for $15,000. (Laughter) Can you imagine? Sure, a grown man paying $15,000 for somebody to tell you what to wear? Heck, $15,000 these days gets you a sleepover in the Lincoln Bedroom. (Laughter) (cheers and applause) This evening does have a special meaning. The story of Al Smith's historic run for the presidency is truly inspiring. It gives me hope that in America, it's still not possible for a fellow named Al to be the commander in chief. (Laughter) And I see Bill Buckley is here tonight-- fellow Yale man. (Applause) We go way back, and we have a lot in common. Bill wrote a book at Yale; I read one. (Laughter) He founded the Conservative Party. I started a few parties myself. (Laughter) Bill was certain he won every debate he had. Well, I know how he feels. (Laughter) It's been a pleasure to be with you all tonight. Your excellency, Laura and I would like you to come and visit our family next year. I'll send you the address as soon as I know what it is. Thank you very much, God bless. (Applause)"
  • Reply 23 of 405
    faust9faust9 Posts: 1,335member
    The ironic thing is this comment:



    Quote:

    Heck, $15,000 these days gets you a sleepover in the Lincoln Bedroom.



    was ment as a humorous attack against Slick Willy... Bush is now doing this very thing--letting rangers sleep over in the Lincoln Bedroom.
  • Reply 24 of 405
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,464member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pfflam

    Bush - "some people call you the Elite. . . I call you my base"

    snicker snicker







    Kerry - "some people call you the Elite. . . I call you my wife/sugarmama."



    So the lesson learned boys and girls is this... You don't have to suck up to the rich and powerful when you keep marrying them instead.





    Nick
  • Reply 25 of 405
    kneelbeforezodkneelbeforezod Posts: 1,120member
    Quote:

    Bill wrote a book at Yale; I read one.



    Jesus...I can't believe that guy is, even if only nominally, in charge of the most powerful country on the planet.
  • Reply 26 of 405
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by faust9

    The ironic thing is this comment:







    was ment as a humorous attack against Slick Willy... Bush is now doing this very thing--letting rangers sleep over in the Lincoln Bedroom.




    So he is charging 15 grand to sleep in the lincoln bedroom? Rangers? Like army rangers?



    Proof?



    You know that many people have slept there and did not have to pay for it.
  • Reply 27 of 405
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by faust9

    Does he present his point of view in a compelling way? Yes. If you watch one of his films holding the "I Believe" button then his form of demagoguery is effective. Is Moore's world-view grounded in reality? Not all that often IMO. Moral of the story, watch a M.Moore flick with a grain, or three for that matter, of salt. Know that in there somewhere may be a point and a nugget of truth. Also know that the layer(s) of presentation and factual BS surrounding the nugget may be quite extensive.



    Good advice for evaluating any sources of information, especially very partisan sources, even (and perhaps especially sometimes) if they are sources you'd tend to agree with.



    Does anyone know of any articles critical of Moore's accuracy, but which have less of an obvious axe to grind, and less of an obviously stupid slant than, oh, say, stuff found at URL like http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/?



    For those who have found errors, or even lies, in Moore's work, to what extent would you say those things are deliberate vs. careless, substantive and damaging to the structure of his case vs. incidental, etc.?
  • Reply 28 of 405
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by kneelbeforezod

    Jesus...I can't believe that guy is, even if only nominally, in charge of the most powerful country on the planet.



    I saw this thing on TV and it was not a serious thing, you do realize that?



    Oh wait, no you probably don't, sorry.
  • Reply 29 of 405
    faust9faust9 Posts: 1,335member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    So he is charging 15 grand to sleep in the lincoln bedroom? Rangers? Like army rangers?



    Proof?



    You know that many people have slept there and did not have to pay for it.




    C'mon man!!! If you don't know what a Bush ranger is then you needs to lurke to political discussions rather than respond to them...



    Here I'll cut and paste because to get this from the AP directly will cost$$$. If you look for yourself though you'll find a free version.

    Quote:

    Published on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 by the Associated Press







    Bush Fund-Raisers Among Overnight Guests in the Lincoln Bedroom







    by Sharon Theimer





    _







    WASHINGTON - President Bush opened the White House and Camp David to dozens of overnight guests last year, including foreign dignitaries, family friends and at least nine of his biggest campaign fund-raisers, documents show.



    In all, Bush and first lady Laura Bush have invited at least 270 people to stay at the White House and at least the same number to overnight at the Camp David retreat since moving to Washington in January 2001, according to lists the White House provided The Associated Press.



    Some guests spent a night in the Lincoln Bedroom, historic quarters that gained new fame in the Clinton administration amid allegations that Democrats rewarded major donors like Hollywood heavyweights Steven Spielberg and Barbra Streisand with accommodations there.



    That scandal and Bush's criticism of it is one of the reasons the White House identifies guests. In a debate with Vice President Al Gore in October 2000, Bush said: "I believe they've moved that sign, `The buck stops here,' from the Oval Office desk to `The buck stops here' on the Lincoln Bedroom. And that's not good for the country."



    Los Angeles attorney Donald Etra stayed at the Bush White House several times and at Camp David once. Etra, a Yale classmate of President Bush, said he and his wife were invited as friends, not because they each gave Bush $1,000 in 2000.



    "Friendship comes first, donations come second," Etra said.



    Describing a stay in the Lincoln Bedroom, he said it was almost impossible to sleep.



    "It is so unbelievably exciting and unbelievable that you are staying in the White House," he said. "One hesitates to put a coffee cup down on the coffee table because there's an original copy of the Emancipation Proclamation under glass."



    Bush's overnight guest roster is virtually free of celebrities ? pro golfer Ben Crenshaw is the biggest name ? but not of campaign supporters.



    At least nine of Bush's biggest fund-raisers appear on the latest list of White House overnight guests, covering June 2002 through December 2003, and-or on the Camp David list, which covers last year. They include:







    Mercer Reynolds, an Ohio financier, former Bush partner in the Texas Rangers baseball team and former ambassador to Switzerland. Reynolds is leading Bush's campaign fund-raising effort. He was a guest at the White House and the Camp David retreat in Maryland's Catoctin Mountains.





    Brad Freeman, a venture capitalist who is leading Bush's California fund-raising effort, has raised at least $200,000 for his re-election campaign and is also a major Republican Party fund-raiser. Freeman stayed at the White House.





    Roland Betts, who raised at least $100,000 for Bush in 2000, was a Bush fraternity brother at Yale and a Texas Rangers partner. Betts stayed at the White House and Camp David.





    William DeWitt, a Bush partner in the oil business and Texas Rangers who has raised at least $200,000 for Bush's re-election effort, stayed at the White House.





    James Francis, who headed the Bush campaign's 2000 team of $100,000-and-up volunteer fund-raisers and was a Bush appointee in Texas when Bush was governor. Francis was a White House guest.





    Joseph O'Neill, an oilman and childhood friend who introduced Bush to Laura Bush and raised at least $100,000 for each of Bush's presidential campaigns, stayed at the White House.





    Colorado Gov. Bill Owens and New York Gov. George Pataki, who each raised at least $200,000 for Bush's re-election campaign, were White House guests.





    James Langdon, who raised at least $100,000 for Bush, is a Washington attorney specializing in international oil and gas transactions. Langdon, whose clients include the Russian oil company Lukoil, is a member of Bush's foreign intelligence advisory board and served on Bush's 2000 presidential transition team on energy policy.









    "Some of these guests are old classmates, some of them have been friends of theirs for many, many years," White House spokeswoman Erin Healy said. "They enjoy the opportunity to spend time with them."



    Langdon, who stayed at Camp David a few weeks before Russian President Vladimir Putin did last September, said Bush's invitations to him and the other fund-raisers differ from the allegations of the Clinton years.



    "Of course I'm a fund-raiser ? I support him in every way I can. But my relationship with him and his wife and his family spans more than three decades," said Langdon, who grew up in Texas and was a Bush friend since Bush's early years there. "I certainly don't need to be rewarded with a trip to Camp David for doing what I'm doing."



    Several Bush relatives visited the White House and Camp David, including former President George H.W. Bush and former first lady Barbara Bush. Visiting world leaders stayed at Camp David, including British Prime Minister Tony Blair and King Abdullah II of Jordan.



    Guests do not have to reimburse the government for their stays.





    © Copyright 2004 The Associated Press



  • Reply 30 of 405
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,464member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by kneelbeforezod

    Jesus...I can't believe that guy is, even if only nominally, in charge of the most powerful country on the planet.



    Bush uses a lot of self-deprecating humor. What is wrong with being able to tell and enjoy a joke? I mean regardless of party, we should be able to hear a joke from whoever is president. Many speakers open with a good joke to gain interest.



    Sad...



    Nick
  • Reply 31 of 405
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by faust9

    C'mon man!!! If you don't know what a Bush ranger is then you needs to lurke to political discussions rather than respond to them...



    Here I'll cut and paste because to get this from the AP directly will cost$$$. If you look for yourself though you'll find a free version.




    So you see NO difference between this and what clinton did?



    No, you probably wouldn't.



    Hint: there is a quick mention of the difference in that article. You might want to slow down a bit. Just a suggestion.
  • Reply 32 of 405
    faust9faust9 Posts: 1,335member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    Bush uses a lot of self-deprecating humor. What is wrong with being able to tell and enjoy a joke? I mean regardless of party, we should be able to hear a joke from whoever is president. Many speakers open with a good joke to gain interest.



    Sad...



    Nick




    Thing is he wasn't president at the time. The date was 10/19/2000. I don't know, it seems like an off color remark for a wanna-be president. Humor is well and good but this is a little over the edge:



    "This is an impressive crowd. The haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite. I call you my base."
  • Reply 33 of 405
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by faust9

    C'mon man!!! If you don't know what a Bush ranger is then you needs to lurke to political discussions rather than respond to them...



    Here I'll cut and paste because to get this from the AP directly will cost$$$. If you look for yourself though you'll find a free version.




    Oh yeah, wasn't it you that accused me of being a partisan hack or something like that?



    Does this mean that you have changed your mind?



    Probably not.
  • Reply 34 of 405
    gilschgilsch Posts: 1,995member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman So the lesson learned boys and girls is this... You don't have to suck up to the rich and powerful when you keep marrying them instead.



    Yawn. That was funny. Besides, marrying a rich guy or gal is quite American.



    Naples, not army Rangers....LMAO. I hope you were just playing dumb there.
  • Reply 35 of 405
    faust9faust9 Posts: 1,335member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    So you see NO difference between this and what clinton did?



    No, you probably wouldn't.



    Hint: there is a quick mention of the difference in that article. You might want to slow down a bit. Just a suggestion.




    No, there is no difference. Both men used the Lincoln bedroom as a reward for donors.



    PS. I pulled the story so quickly because I have read it and knew where/when to look. You point out where the article illustrates a difference there killer.





    There's this:



    Quote:

    Some guests spent a night in the Lincoln Bedroom, historic quarters that gained new fame in the Clinton administration amid allegations that Democrats rewarded major donors like Hollywood heavyweights Steven Spielberg and Barbra Streisand with accommodations there.



    which is later followed by this:



    Quote:

    "Some of these guests are old classmates, some of them have been friends of theirs for many, many years," White House spokeswoman Erin Healy said. "They enjoy the opportunity to spend time with them."



    Note the qualifier 'some'. That's an important word because it leads one to think that all things are above the board with the Bush slumber parties which is probably not the whole story. Pandering to his Rangers is no better than pandering to Follywood donors.





    [edit] fixed quote tag and spelling mistake
  • Reply 36 of 405
    faust9faust9 Posts: 1,335member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    Oh yeah, wasn't it you that accused me of being a partisan hack or something like that?



    Does this mean that you have changed your mind?



    Probably not.




    No it means you are a partisna hack who doesn't follow the news that's all.
  • Reply 37 of 405
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by faust9

    Thing is he wasn't president at the time. The date was 10/19/2000. I don't know, it seems like an off color remark for a wanna-be president. Humor is well and good but this is a little over the edge:



    "This is an impressive crowd. The haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite. I call you my base."




    So you acted as if you knew the circumstances surrounding this quote and it sound like you don't.



    It is an annual POLITICAL dinner and this one was attended by Al Gore, Hillary, GWB, and Rick Lazio among others. here is Al's remarks. Pretty funny stuff.



    VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE: I'm honored to be at this year's Al Smith Memorial Foundation dinner. This dinner represents a hallowed and important tradition, which I actually did invent. (Laughter) And, of course, I want to acknowledge FEMA Director James Lee Witt, who accompanied me here tonight. (Laughter) We travel everywhere together. (Laughter) Please accept my apology for interrupting your meal. Since this is a special occasion, I wanted to mark it by getting all of my interruptions out of the way before Governor Bush speaks. (Laughter) I know some people are going to keep accusing me of exaggeration, so let me be clear. Those people seek nothing less than the complete destruction of the American way of life. (Laughter) (Applause) It's absolutely clear. I never exaggerate. You can ask Tipper or any one of our 11 daughters. (Laughter) Another thing that bugs me is when people say I am just a wonk, obsessed with policy detail. Well, like some many Americans, I like to just kick back and relax and watch television for relaxation. One of my favorite shows is "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" Well, it should really be called "Who Wants to be After Taxes a $651,437.70 Person?" (Laughter) Of course, that's under my plan. Under Governor Bush's plan... (Laughter) it would be "Who Wants to be After Taxes a $701,587.80 Person?" (Laughter) This is a fund-raiser, isn't it? Whenever I see everybody dressed the same way, my antenna goes straight up. (Laughter) I also make you this simple pledge: If I am entrusted with the presidency, I may not always be the funniest President, but I will never sigh to you. Thank you. God bless you, and God bless America. ( Applause )
  • Reply 38 of 405
    gilschgilsch Posts: 1,995member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    Oh yeah, wasn't it you that accused me of being a partisan hack or something like that?



    Nah, it only proves that too often you come to defend your hero without not knowing much of what you're talking about.
  • Reply 39 of 405
    naplesxnaplesx Posts: 3,743member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by faust9

    No, there is no difference. Both men used the Lincoln bedroom as a reward for donors.



    PS. I pulled the story so quickly because I have read it and knew where/when to look. You point out where the article illustrates a difference there killer.





    There's this:







    which is later followed by this:







    Note the qualifier 'some'. That's an important word because it leads one to think that all things are above the board with the Bush slumber parties which is probably not the whole story. Pandering to his Rangers is no better than pandering to Follywood donors.





    [edit] fixed quote tag and spelling mistake




    You are so smart and I am so dumb. I must be silly to think that this is the difference between the two administrations visa vi the LB:



    "That scandal and Bush's criticism of it is one of the reasons the White House identifies guests."



    It is a small and simple sentence, that is obviously why it appealed to me.
  • Reply 40 of 405
    faust9faust9 Posts: 1,335member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by NaplesX

    So you acted as if you knew the circumstances surrounding this quote and it sound like you don't.



    It is an annual POLITICAL dinner and this one was attended by Al Gore, Hillary, GWB, and Rick Lazio among others. here is Al's remarks. Pretty funny stuff.



    VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE: I'm honored to be at this year's Al Smith Memorial Foundation dinner. This dinner represents a hallowed and important tradition, which I actually did invent. (Laughter) And, of course, I want to acknowledge FEMA Director James Lee Witt, who accompanied me here tonight. (Laughter) We travel everywhere together. (Laughter) Please accept my apology for interrupting your meal. Since this is a special occasion, I wanted to mark it by getting all of my interruptions out of the way before Governor Bush speaks. (Laughter) I know some people are going to keep accusing me of exaggeration, so let me be clear. Those people seek nothing less than the complete destruction of the American way of life. (Laughter) (Applause) It's absolutely clear. I never exaggerate. You can ask Tipper or any one of our 11 daughters. (Laughter) Another thing that bugs me is when people say I am just a wonk, obsessed with policy detail. Well, like some many Americans, I like to just kick back and relax and watch television for relaxation. One of my favorite shows is "Who Wants to be a Millionaire?" Well, it should really be called "Who Wants to be After Taxes a $651,437.70 Person?" (Laughter) Of course, that's under my plan. Under Governor Bush's plan... (Laughter) it would be "Who Wants to be After Taxes a $701,587.80 Person?" (Laughter) This is a fund-raiser, isn't it? Whenever I see everybody dressed the same way, my antenna goes straight up. (Laughter) I also make you this simple pledge: If I am entrusted with the presidency, I may not always be the funniest President, but I will never sigh to you. Thank you. God bless you, and God bless America. ( Applause )






    Oh Naples, wrong yet again... Here, let me recapitulate



    Quote:

    Originally posted by Faust9

    ...I don't know, it seems like an off color remark for a wanna-be president. Humor is well and good but this is a little over the edge:...



    It appears that I was interjecting my own opinion of the appropriateness here. Phrases like 'I don't know' and 'it seems' may be causing you some trouble here because they are not black and white. It's tough to understand because what I said was neither good nor evil. What I said wasn't a crusade against Bush which may shock you (not your fingers and testicles but rather your sensibility). What I said was, if I may rephrase, "I feel this was a slightly off color remark and though funny may not have been the best move for a politician--especially one running for president."



    Now if you want to play the situational awareness game I'm more than up for it because in this thread alone you have proven at least once you don't follow the political picture as well as your prolific posting count would suggest.
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