<strong>MS' current effort weighs more than a TiBook, squandering the one theoretical advantage a tablet has: The fact that it can be held in one hand, and written upon with another.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Does M$ have a tablet that is all to their own or are you talking about the tablets made by different brands/companies? Because compaq's weighs in at 3 lbs. I still think these guys will fail but not because of weight.
<strong>All the reasons we're giving here why the MS Tablet will fail are based on MS not knowing about good design and marketing. It is also important to note that x86 based hardware isn't that suitable either.
Apple on the other hand has industry leading award winning design, very low power components and the right software.
If you look at this weeks iBook release for $999, they could drop it to 10", lose the keyboard and 1 USB, give it a touch screen and voila! Apple iPad for $999ish.
No hassle, no special edition OS, just a tablet done right. Apple could sell more of these than Gartner thinks the rest of the industry put together will (425,000).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Part of good design is knowing what will work, and though what you describe is close, it ain't there yet. Lose keyboard and hinge, drop to 10" screen, but you still need the internals, and it'll still weigh in at mebbe a pound less than the iBook. Now you're gonna want it for stand up and scribble duty. Gotta ruggedize it further and put back some of the weight you saved with the screen hinge. Uh uh, too heavy.
The other way to go about it is the big screen PDA, or alternatively you can go for a small screen iBook, lidless and seriously cut down but otherwise capable of the full OS, with special extensions. But you way doesn't solve the problem of it being to big to use standing, to keyless to type sitting, and still big and fragile.
When the technology is there to do it right at the right price, then we'll see one, mebbe in converta-SUBnotebook size, B5 at the absolutely largest form factor such a device and it's users could manage, even if they don't knw any better right now, you'll see...
<strong>it would be like bringing an encyclopedia with you to read on the bus.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very good analogy. I would like to use one, pretty much a Newton, but with modern day graphics and functionality. I think Apple could do it and has probably gone through R&D many, many times on such devices. I think it would have to be a smidge bigger than the Newton 2x00 size, but with color obviously and PDA style functions. I laptop replacement is just not a good idea. That's why we have iBooks and TiBooks. This would be nice for the frequent traveler who does a lot of note taking or presenting (ie; external video so it can be mated with a projector for sketches during demos etc).
The newton was actually pretty close to ideal in footprint, but not screen size or girth.
Do yourself this little visualization example.
Pick up a DVD-case. Note it's footprint and thickness. That is just about the ideal size for a tablet device. Also about the size of a trade paperback or A5 paper (a little smaller really). Easy to read an write anywhere, comfortably, standing or sitting. Now open it up. See what the two halves look like, feel like, just like a book open part way and snugged up to your face as you read.
Take your slate, imagine that the flip over cover is not just a protective cover, but a flip over hard backed pad, with real paper, yes, paper. In the 'spine' sits a 'pen' that has either ink, pencil, or plastic tip to it. You can open it part way and sribble on the paper, or write and the note go straight to the slate, or you can fold the paper right around, select the plastic tip in your pen, and work/edit directly on the screen, up to you whether you prefer the feel of paper or not, whether you need a paper copy right now. Bluetooth in the pen, and an active digitizer on the screen, take care of all your transcription needs. Athernatively, you can scrap the paper pad and plug in a small keyboard for faster seated entry. All stays in the nice leather bound cover. Doesn't shout, "Hey, look at me, I'm using expensive technology." It just quitely goes about it's business as a true electronic notepad/tablet.
Contrary to what most people say on the boards, I don't think the only target audience for a TabletPC lies in the business world: I work in a molecular biology lab and everybody is still using pen and paper to protocol their experiments. I would *LOVE* to have a (ruggedized) Pen-based thingy to hack my planned experiments into and add the results. Connected wirelessly to a backend server that would do the data storage/safety, I think it would be an extremely useful device, given it had an additional camera to take pictures of the results and the other lab equipment being outfitted with IR or bluetooth to transmit the data. The indexing of the text would come very handy for finding old data that you otherwise have to search for by hand in several protocol books and you would *never* have to type rows and rows of data into excel from a computer printout originating form some other machine. If the software would work nicely compositing documents from different files, you could easily put a sort of diary together that would still keep the original data in its own files, ready to be sent to somebody or to be incorporated into something else - although you probably would need some sort of database-based storage for that (another good reason to implement that in a file system plugin for MacOS X...) . Unfortunately, I don't think that MS knows what it wants with the TabletPC nor has the connectivity in its mind or the will to make everyone programming for that thing and incorporate the hooks necessary to make the applications talk to each other. I guess that's what they think .net is supposed to do. Nonetheless I don't think .net will automatically provide all the data exchange functionality without programmers thinking about it ahead of time. As Apple seems to be more stringent in its grip on 3rd party programmers and is more geared towards having their computers communicate with whatever's out there, maybe they would be able to actually bring the (read: my personal one, which would make sense to me) TabletPC concept to fruition. On the other hand, they definitely don't want to come up with another product that's way ahead of its time like the Newton - so, waiting a little and taking a more Dellish (or Multiplan?) or iPodish approach will probably be better for Apple - and us?
So what's the point? I hope the TabletPC will fail mildly in the market place so that Apple can still pick the concept up at a later point without getting burnt by the analysts and make it a success, similar to the iPod!
Garbage - IMHO tablet PC's are complete garbage. At least the current releases are. I can see that laptops with writable screens for taking notes will be the future, but these limited function machines are just simply not practical for a home user or a business user. It is too big to lug around to meetings, too limited to use in replacement of a standard laptop. The only ones that may have success in the home market are the units that are a laptop with a tablet screen. Just my 2 cents.
<strong>Contrary to what most people say on the boards, I don't think the only target audience for a TabletPC lies in the business world</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with you...but you are in the business world - the lab is just your 'office'. We use Compaq iPaqs in our hospital Pharmacy, ER and Lab for checking meds, conflicts, lab results, and tracking and monitoring patient flow via a web-based Whiteboard application that we wrote. It works quite nice, but the iPaq screen is very tiny for the premium price you pay for them. A tablet would be a nicer way to get this work done, I believe.
the only tablet I want is built into my fridge so I can write notes on what to get and have it 802 elevened to my mac. I figure about $99.99 ought to cover a 8"x10"
<strong>I believe I have described the perfect device for you're needs. Thank-you very much.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Before you go off self-praising....
I don't mind your description, but would like a big bigger screen than a paperback. As far as the real paper goes, nope, definately not. I would like something that has a slate I can write directly on, but not feel like plastic on plastic, like signing your names on one of those credit card terminals at the local dept store. I get a picture of a child's doodle pad with the roll of paper you simply tear off when scribbled on enough. No, definately not.
I definately like the opening-like-a-book concept. I used to have a Psion 7, and it was fine for most all things. The keyboard was a joke and should've had a slate for writing on instead. I will do up a Photoshop today, and post of a concept.
Part of good design is knowing what will work, and though what you describe is close, it ain't there yet. Lose keyboard and hinge, drop to 10" screen, but you still need the internals, and it'll still weigh in at mebbe a pound less than the iBook. Now you're gonna want it for stand up and scribble duty. Gotta ruggedize it further and put back some of the weight you saved with the screen hinge. Uh uh, too heavy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think part of the way to lighten/ruggedise it is in size. Maybe use 1.8" iPod drives, built-in polymer batteries, built-in RAM, no CD, 9" screen. Charge it by firewire too, which cuts down on sockets.
I don't think your tablet PDA idea is it. For the cost (it would still be $499) people want more - which is why PDAs don't sell too well.
No, for your $999 (or less!) you want a full Mac, capable of of running all Mac software. That way you get the geek market, which generates software. Students can run Office. Kids can run games. Etc.
tablet to one side, paper to the other, you can write on either as the need takes you. The stylus would be 'smart' and so would the digitizer on the slate. But since 'feel' can be an issue, I think an 'active' pen could be a good idea.
My inclination is also to a full computer, but I don't think the tech is there to do it an a rugged and cost effective way, yet. Another year or two and who knows, though a PDA could probably do it now.
1.8" drives, 256-512MB and a small screen with minimal ports, yes, that could work. But it'd be very slow given current PPC's. Mebbe with low power .09u versions?
If you sell it as a complete computer, people will want to use it that way, and will inevitably be disappointed when they do. Gaming and iApps will be SLOWWW, and the OS will look seriously cramped. Both could be solved with some tweaking of the OS, mebbe. 999 won't get you a computer replacement, close isn't good enough. Mebbe in 3-5 years...
I agree with you...but you are in the business world - the lab is just your 'office'. </strong><hr></blockquote>
You are right, I guess I haven't filed my hobby as business, although it is... .
The fridge screen Bigc wants is something that I would like, too; it would perfectly replace the paper clutter on our lab fridge which doubles as a message board - and the digital version would also always be up-to-date, in contrast to our vertical paper trash heap. This is where iCal would fit nicely, too (apart from the TiVo-like hard disk VCR that interfaces with your DVD-R-equipped Mac which has the clickable TV program courtesy of iCal and is able to synch it with your Apple or Palm PDA that doubles as a remote control for the HD-VCR...), to keep the message board in sync with other message boards on other fridges via 802.11 or a server mac in the building or somewhere else in the internet... .
Apple will not release a tablet, PDA, or anything else sub iBook size until they perfect their voice recognition logistics. They have the voice to text and command down, but not the logistics of menu and file navigation. Until they find an intuitive and easy way to do that, they'll sit out this product.
Imagine a PDA/phone device with extensive and practical use of voice recognition. We all have phones that can dial by saying a name, but what if we could just say "Find" -- "Movie" -- "8-Mile" -- "in 90210" or how about "Email" -- "Send" -- "to matsu@appleinsder.com" -- "subject new powerbooks" -- "body [blah blah]" -- "end email" -- "send".
<strong>Apple will not release a tablet, PDA, or anything else sub iBook size until they perfect their voice recognition logistics. They have the voice to text and command down, but not the logistics of menu and file navigation. Until they find an intuitive and easy way to do that, they'll sit out this product.
Imagine a PDA/phone device with extensive and practical use of voice recognition. We all have phones that can dial by saying a name, but what if we could just say "Find" -- "Movie" -- "8-Mile" -- "in 90210" or how about "Email" -- "Send" -- "to matsu@appleinsder.com" -- "subject new powerbooks" -- "body [blah blah]" -- "end email" -- "send".
Er, you've been able to do that for well over 10 years now. Look at Dragon NaturallySpeaking or IBM ViaVoice. It works extremely well but the Mac equivalents are utter rubbish.
I ran Dragon Dictate on a 16Mhz 386 when they were new and it was extremely good. Dragon PowerSecretary was as good on the Mac under 8.0 but developed stopped and it became VoicePowerPro and was very poor.
Apple could easily license the Philips speach engine. However, most people hate dictating unless they are alone, it's too public.
Why has most of the Apple community completely lost thier minds?
Apple is a niche computer company.
I mean, duh they come out with the Newton didn't they. What do you think the iPod market is, well besides a bunch of Apple groupies that wanted Apple to make an MP3 player. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I have used the Pace blade for 5 months. It certainly has problems, but at least some people are trying to be innovative. I have never entered text on mine with the pen. I use mine while I relax at night to read through Email, memos or work documents. It takes about a minute to sync with it when I get home. I find it especially handy when someone calls, I can quickly search though notes, the Emails, etc.
The biggest stupidity I read here is that people think Tablet means you have to write everything by hand. Tablets are not big Newtons. Alot of tablets, especially the ones M$ is promoting, have keyboards.
Though I should state that the comment that Bill Gates made about the Newton on the Charlie Rose show last night was certainly an insult to Apple.
Whats the big deal if the iBook display flipped around to be used in a closed form? There is very little weight added for the double hinging and the touch sensitive face is no big deal either. Of course the Powerbook couldn't do this because it has such a terrible heat problem already. I do think that it is possible for the iBook and should be done as part of the next Bump.
There is no doubt that the tablet concept has appeal on two fronts -
1. Pen input is great for quick notes, art, and applications where you have to stand or can't make a lot of noise typing (classroom).
2. The subnotebook appeal (especially in the convertable form factor where the screen detaches from the base that has the keyboard and optical drive).
In short, I don't know anyone who doesn't want these features, they just attack the price difference and usability (battery life, weight, etc). If Microsoft puts enough support behind this it will become an added feature everyone expects even if it isn't initially use alot and then the tech will improve later.
I don't want to be in a situation where a PC user says, "You mean you can't even pen input on a mac?" Besides, I once owned a Newton 2000 and I know for damn sure that Apple could do it better than M$.
That's what kills me about Bill Gates attacking the Newton in his Tablet rollout: The Newton 2Ks completely kick his Tablet's ass in overall usability, and they're how old?
Didn't they compare the specs of the Tablet PC to the Newton 130? The ZDnet article sure did. Pretty sad when they have to go that far back.
Anyways, PRICE is the main barrier and why I think tablet PCs will fail. I just got a catalog this week, and in it was the HP tablet PC. At a whopping $1700, I get a 10 inch screen, a weak transmeta cpu, and pretty much nothing else.
There is no true innovation in these new Tablet PCs. They are just flat-panel displays with some extra circuits, a hard drive and battery, that allow pen input. There is nothing ergonomic about holding a thin, hard rectangle in your hand.
I challenge Apple to redefine what a handheld computer can be. It should NOT be a computer that happens to be small enough to hold in my hand. It SHOULD be a comfortable handheld device that happens to act like a computer.
Comments
<strong>MS' current effort weighs more than a TiBook, squandering the one theoretical advantage a tablet has: The fact that it can be held in one hand, and written upon with another.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Does M$ have a tablet that is all to their own or are you talking about the tablets made by different brands/companies? Because compaq's weighs in at 3 lbs. I still think these guys will fail but not because of weight.
<a href="http://www.compaq.com/products/tabletpc/"; target="_blank">Compaq Tablet</a>
<strong>All the reasons we're giving here why the MS Tablet will fail are based on MS not knowing about good design and marketing. It is also important to note that x86 based hardware isn't that suitable either.
Apple on the other hand has industry leading award winning design, very low power components and the right software.
If you look at this weeks iBook release for $999, they could drop it to 10", lose the keyboard and 1 USB, give it a touch screen and voila! Apple iPad for $999ish.
No hassle, no special edition OS, just a tablet done right. Apple could sell more of these than Gartner thinks the rest of the industry put together will (425,000).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Part of good design is knowing what will work, and though what you describe is close, it ain't there yet. Lose keyboard and hinge, drop to 10" screen, but you still need the internals, and it'll still weigh in at mebbe a pound less than the iBook. Now you're gonna want it for stand up and scribble duty. Gotta ruggedize it further and put back some of the weight you saved with the screen hinge. Uh uh, too heavy.
The other way to go about it is the big screen PDA, or alternatively you can go for a small screen iBook, lidless and seriously cut down but otherwise capable of the full OS, with special extensions. But you way doesn't solve the problem of it being to big to use standing, to keyless to type sitting, and still big and fragile.
When the technology is there to do it right at the right price, then we'll see one, mebbe in converta-SUBnotebook size, B5 at the absolutely largest form factor such a device and it's users could manage, even if they don't knw any better right now, you'll see...
<strong>it would be like bringing an encyclopedia with you to read on the bus.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very good analogy. I would like to use one, pretty much a Newton, but with modern day graphics and functionality. I think Apple could do it and has probably gone through R&D many, many times on such devices. I think it would have to be a smidge bigger than the Newton 2x00 size, but with color obviously and PDA style functions. I laptop replacement is just not a good idea. That's why we have iBooks and TiBooks. This would be nice for the frequent traveler who does a lot of note taking or presenting (ie; external video so it can be mated with a projector for sketches during demos etc).
Do yourself this little visualization example.
Pick up a DVD-case. Note it's footprint and thickness. That is just about the ideal size for a tablet device. Also about the size of a trade paperback or A5 paper (a little smaller really). Easy to read an write anywhere, comfortably, standing or sitting. Now open it up. See what the two halves look like, feel like, just like a book open part way and snugged up to your face as you read.
Take your slate, imagine that the flip over cover is not just a protective cover, but a flip over hard backed pad, with real paper, yes, paper. In the 'spine' sits a 'pen' that has either ink, pencil, or plastic tip to it. You can open it part way and sribble on the paper, or write and the note go straight to the slate, or you can fold the paper right around, select the plastic tip in your pen, and work/edit directly on the screen, up to you whether you prefer the feel of paper or not, whether you need a paper copy right now. Bluetooth in the pen, and an active digitizer on the screen, take care of all your transcription needs. Athernatively, you can scrap the paper pad and plug in a small keyboard for faster seated entry. All stays in the nice leather bound cover. Doesn't shout, "Hey, look at me, I'm using expensive technology." It just quitely goes about it's business as a true electronic notepad/tablet.
So what's the point? I hope the TabletPC will fail mildly in the market place so that Apple can still pick the concept up at a later point without getting burnt by the analysts and make it a success, similar to the iPod!
<strong>Contrary to what most people say on the boards, I don't think the only target audience for a TabletPC lies in the business world</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with you...but you are in the business world - the lab is just your 'office'. We use Compaq iPaqs in our hospital Pharmacy, ER and Lab for checking meds, conflicts, lab results, and tracking and monitoring patient flow via a web-based Whiteboard application that we wrote. It works quite nice, but the iPaq screen is very tiny for the premium price you pay for them. A tablet would be a nicer way to get this work done, I believe.
I believe I have described the perfect device for you're needs. Thank-you very much.
<strong>I believe I have described the perfect device for you're needs. Thank-you very much.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Before you go off self-praising....
I don't mind your description, but would like a big bigger screen than a paperback. As far as the real paper goes, nope, definately not. I would like something that has a slate I can write directly on, but not feel like plastic on plastic, like signing your names on one of those credit card terminals at the local dept store. I get a picture of a child's doodle pad with the roll of paper you simply tear off when scribbled on enough. No, definately not.
I definately like the opening-like-a-book concept. I used to have a Psion 7, and it was fine for most all things. The keyboard was a joke and should've had a slate for writing on instead. I will do up a Photoshop today, and post of a concept.
<strong>
Part of good design is knowing what will work, and though what you describe is close, it ain't there yet. Lose keyboard and hinge, drop to 10" screen, but you still need the internals, and it'll still weigh in at mebbe a pound less than the iBook. Now you're gonna want it for stand up and scribble duty. Gotta ruggedize it further and put back some of the weight you saved with the screen hinge. Uh uh, too heavy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think part of the way to lighten/ruggedise it is in size. Maybe use 1.8" iPod drives, built-in polymer batteries, built-in RAM, no CD, 9" screen. Charge it by firewire too, which cuts down on sockets.
I don't think your tablet PDA idea is it. For the cost (it would still be $499) people want more - which is why PDAs don't sell too well.
No, for your $999 (or less!) you want a full Mac, capable of of running all Mac software. That way you get the geek market, which generates software. Students can run Office. Kids can run games. Etc.
Aim it at consumers, business can come second.
tablet to one side, paper to the other, you can write on either as the need takes you. The stylus would be 'smart' and so would the digitizer on the slate. But since 'feel' can be an issue, I think an 'active' pen could be a good idea.
My inclination is also to a full computer, but I don't think the tech is there to do it an a rugged and cost effective way, yet. Another year or two and who knows, though a PDA could probably do it now.
1.8" drives, 256-512MB and a small screen with minimal ports, yes, that could work. But it'd be very slow given current PPC's. Mebbe with low power .09u versions?
If you sell it as a complete computer, people will want to use it that way, and will inevitably be disappointed when they do. Gaming and iApps will be SLOWWW, and the OS will look seriously cramped. Both could be solved with some tweaking of the OS, mebbe. 999 won't get you a computer replacement, close isn't good enough. Mebbe in 3-5 years...
<strong>
I agree with you...but you are in the business world - the lab is just your 'office'. </strong><hr></blockquote>
You are right, I guess I haven't filed my hobby as business, although it is... .
The fridge screen Bigc wants is something that I would like, too; it would perfectly replace the paper clutter on our lab fridge which doubles as a message board - and the digital version would also always be up-to-date, in contrast to our vertical paper trash heap. This is where iCal would fit nicely, too (apart from the TiVo-like hard disk VCR that interfaces with your DVD-R-equipped Mac which has the clickable TV program courtesy of iCal and is able to synch it with your Apple or Palm PDA that doubles as a remote control for the HD-VCR...), to keep the message board in sync with other message boards on other fridges via 802.11 or a server mac in the building or somewhere else in the internet... .
[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: heinzel ]</p>
Imagine a PDA/phone device with extensive and practical use of voice recognition. We all have phones that can dial by saying a name, but what if we could just say "Find" -- "Movie" -- "8-Mile" -- "in 90210" or how about "Email" -- "Send" -- "to matsu@appleinsder.com" -- "subject new powerbooks" -- "body [blah blah]" -- "end email" -- "send".
Codename? Boxing Helena.
<strong>Apple will not release a tablet, PDA, or anything else sub iBook size until they perfect their voice recognition logistics. They have the voice to text and command down, but not the logistics of menu and file navigation. Until they find an intuitive and easy way to do that, they'll sit out this product.
Imagine a PDA/phone device with extensive and practical use of voice recognition. We all have phones that can dial by saying a name, but what if we could just say "Find" -- "Movie" -- "8-Mile" -- "in 90210" or how about "Email" -- "Send" -- "to matsu@appleinsder.com" -- "subject new powerbooks" -- "body [blah blah]" -- "end email" -- "send".
Codename? Boxing Helena.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Er, you've been able to do that for well over 10 years now. Look at Dragon NaturallySpeaking or IBM ViaVoice. It works extremely well but the Mac equivalents are utter rubbish.
I ran Dragon Dictate on a 16Mhz 386 when they were new and it was extremely good. Dragon PowerSecretary was as good on the Mac under 8.0 but developed stopped and it became VoicePowerPro and was very poor.
Apple could easily license the Philips speach engine. However, most people hate dictating unless they are alone, it's too public.
Apple is a niche computer company.
I mean, duh they come out with the Newton didn't they. What do you think the iPod market is, well besides a bunch of Apple groupies that wanted Apple to make an MP3 player. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I have used the Pace blade for 5 months. It certainly has problems, but at least some people are trying to be innovative. I have never entered text on mine with the pen. I use mine while I relax at night to read through Email, memos or work documents. It takes about a minute to sync with it when I get home. I find it especially handy when someone calls, I can quickly search though notes, the Emails, etc.
The biggest stupidity I read here is that people think Tablet means you have to write everything by hand. Tablets are not big Newtons. Alot of tablets, especially the ones M$ is promoting, have keyboards.
Though I should state that the comment that Bill Gates made about the Newton on the Charlie Rose show last night was certainly an insult to Apple.
Whats the big deal if the iBook display flipped around to be used in a closed form? There is very little weight added for the double hinging and the touch sensitive face is no big deal either. Of course the Powerbook couldn't do this because it has such a terrible heat problem already. I do think that it is possible for the iBook and should be done as part of the next Bump.
1. Pen input is great for quick notes, art, and applications where you have to stand or can't make a lot of noise typing (classroom).
2. The subnotebook appeal (especially in the convertable form factor where the screen detaches from the base that has the keyboard and optical drive).
In short, I don't know anyone who doesn't want these features, they just attack the price difference and usability (battery life, weight, etc). If Microsoft puts enough support behind this it will become an added feature everyone expects even if it isn't initially use alot and then the tech will improve later.
I don't want to be in a situation where a PC user says, "You mean you can't even pen input on a mac?" Besides, I once owned a Newton 2000 and I know for damn sure that Apple could do it better than M$.
<strong>
That's what kills me about Bill Gates attacking the Newton in his Tablet rollout: The Newton 2Ks completely kick his Tablet's ass in overall usability, and they're how old?
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Didn't they compare the specs of the Tablet PC to the Newton 130? The ZDnet article sure did. Pretty sad when they have to go that far back.
Anyways, PRICE is the main barrier and why I think tablet PCs will fail. I just got a catalog this week, and in it was the HP tablet PC. At a whopping $1700, I get a 10 inch screen, a weak transmeta cpu, and pretty much nothing else.
I challenge Apple to redefine what a handheld computer can be. It should NOT be a computer that happens to be small enough to hold in my hand. It SHOULD be a comfortable handheld device that happens to act like a computer.