I see two problems with this kind of behavior. First, why is Apple wasting time developing something that someone else has already developed? Why aren't they spending their limited resources making something new, or copying something from the Windows world that doesn't already exist on Macs? Second, what is the motivation for me (or any programmer) to develop a utility if Apple has a track record of stealing people's ideas?
Maybe I'm confused here. I fail to see how Apple ripped off Konfabulator at all. Konfab was not (to my understanding) a platform for building widgets (Java) nor was it responsible for the look/feel of those widgets (designers), all it did was provide a 'home' for all of these individually developed widgets to rest.
Apple has done the same thing with Dashboard, but with a cleaner (IMO) implementation. Again, they didn't write/design the widgets (for the most part), they just built the framework for them to sit.
Much like tools in a toolshed. People are screaming at Apple as though they STOLE Konfabulator's idea for a TOOL, when really all they did was build a different kind of shed. The tools are provided by the thousands of people who write these little widgets. Either it's me, or everyone is confused and thinks Apple stole this idea simply because they've seen 'widgets' before. Widgets AREN'T Konfabulor, Konfabulator is just the organizational platform...Am I wrong?
They have taken the idea and the implementation and bundled it with the OS. They did not already have a similar product that they decided to bundle to force out the competition. Think IE and the browser wars.
Agree 100%.
Hell, Microsoft got sued, and now we have here a full bunch of apologists willing to take it under their tails just cuz it's Steve's...
We're talking about developers here people, and this was a developer's conference. Arlo got screwed for being a developer! I would not, will not, develop for an Apple platform. Ever. Not after this.
And sadly, developers make the platform. I never thought I'd have found myself thinking this, but I fondly remember a tall, fat and sweaty guy coming on stage all dancing and jumping, all the time screaming "developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers..."
I paid for Konfabulator. I use it all the time, and liked it so much that I decided to pay. It's like the second or third time I do it (first one was Transit, back in the Good Old Days). But I did it to support the developer, who in my opinion, really deserved it. Now it's like Apple made Arlo's work meaningless, and my support for Konfabulator as well.
Thanks Steve, but after this you lost me (after 14 years).
This all raises a good point. What can an independent developer do to protect their developments?
Point 1: Don't waste time developing things in the public domain except for fun.
Point 2: Learning about legalisms is as important as learning about software engineering.
If you want to charge for something then somehow you need to protect it. You could use copyright to protect the look and feel. Someone could make the same function but somehow it would have to look different. Maybe different enough to let you keep your business alive. You could use software patents to protect some limited aspects of the product.
This is not fun but it seems that this is the world we live in.
Thanks Steve, but after this you lost me (after 14 years)
Bravo!!! Such Drama...my heart is touched by your emotional plea.
I swear, some of you people really freak me out with all this emotion. Arlo is just facing a bit of competiton, he'll be fine. Hell I get pissed off at Apple but it's business never personal.
Such Drama...my heart is touched by your emotional plea.
I swear, some of you people really freak me out with all this emotion. Arlo is just facing a bit of competiton, he'll be fine. Hell I get pissed off at Apple but it's business never personal.
Here we go. Apologist number one (and top-scorer under-the-tail taker only-if-it's-Steve's also).
If it weren't Apple, but another 3rd party ISV, I would seriously expect at least some credits. In case of a company, be it Apple, M$, Adobe or Quark, we should take it for granted. Unless they violate other people's copyrights.
If it weren't Apple, but another 3rd party ISV, I would seriously expect at least some credits. In case of a company, be it Apple, M$, Adobe or Quark, we should take it for granted. Unless they violate other people's copyrights.
Alright, law by the book. But if they really want to convince more people to develop for OS Decimus (sorry, sooner or later I had to say it, numbers in latin are adjectives) they should come out with something better than this.
It's like: "develop cool products for our platform! But wait, if your product is too cool and you're a small independent developer we might just screw you, rip-off your work, put you almost out of business and call it innovation".
Am I the only one seeing something wrong in this approach?
This all raises a good point. What can an independent developer do to protect their developments?
Point 1: Don't waste time developing things in the public domain except for fun.
Point 2: Learning about legalisms is as important as learning about software engineering.
If you want to charge for something then somehow you need to protect it. You could use copyright to protect the look and feel. Someone could make the same function but somehow it would have to look different. Maybe different enough to let you keep your business alive. You could use software patents to protect some limited aspects of the product.
This is not fun but it seems that this is the world we live in.
Point 3: Don't bitch about others stealing your idea if your idea was stolen from someone else (DesktopX et al).
Bravo!!! Such Drama...my heart is touched by your emotional plea.
I swear, some of you people really freak me out with all this emotion. Arlo is just facing a bit of competiton, he'll be fine. Hell I get pissed off at Apple but it's business never personal.
you're fan boy thing is in overdrive.
I just watched the keynote. Dashboard looks very nice. And its something that I have been waiting for every time I have needed to use the calculator in OS X or address book. I tried Konfabulator a while ago, thought it was nifty, but overall hated it. Seemed to just be cluttered and inefficient and didnt really solve the problems I wanted solved. Dashboard does. I'm all for dashboard..... I just think that Apple needs to wise up with this ripping off of developers without recognition/support. Hell, Watson won a frickin apple design award and then they go and make it their own. That's just low. Konfabulator, since I first used it, seems to have improved greatly, and is a very popular app in the mac community. Apple is hurting the wrong people with moves like these.
In a couple months this will all be forgotten, no one will care, people will be drooling over the latest preview of Dashboard, so whatever, I just think Apple needs to go about this stuff in a more professional/ethical/community way
The effect of Dashboards will be pretty small. They really don't do much. Arlo should be able to stay more than competitive after all he's charging $25 for the technology of which users freely share their design work.
That's an ethical quandry of its own. Just like Gracenote took the benevolent work of thousands of people and privatized it Konfabulator is counting on free labor to profit.
I will still consider buying Konfab and I will eyeball Sun's Karelia based product. However in the end it's a sad fact but technology added to the OS is better for the future. With housholds moving to multiple computers paying site licenses for shareware is even an expensive proposition. Apple might compete with some developers but remember there are thousands that Apple doesn't compete with.
Point 3: Don't bitch about others stealing your idea if your idea was stolen from someone else (DesktopX et al).
Point 4: bitch with a vengeance when an OS company wants you to develop for their platform and when your work is flourishing and ripe they rip-off what you've done.
However in the end it's a sad fact but technology added to the OS is better for the future.
We need coherence here: if you think it is right then stick with it. Otherwise, if it's wrong for one (picture yourselves Bill Gates saying that) is wrong also for everybody else. That's the fundamental principle of legality.
Unless some think this is really war (anyone need to get a life for a change? ), but then also bombs and missiles get into the equation. And things start to get messy... Stock-price of your competitor rises, you bomb their HQ? Funny in a book, not in RL.
Alright, law by the book. But if they really want to convince more people to develop for OS Decimus (sorry, sooner or later I had to say it, numbers in latin are adjectives) they should come out with something better than this.
It's like: "develop cool products for our platform! But wait, if your product is too cool and you're a small independent developer we might just screw you, rip-off your work, put you almost out of business and call it innovation".
Am I the only one seeing something wrong in this approach?
You're not the only one. That's why we have 2 sets of laws: formal/civil and informal/moral ones. Some people even have a 3rd set for laws of logic. My opinion is that Apple is right from a pure legal point of view, damn wrong from a moral point of view, and somewhat illogical as you say. If you just don't give a damn about this complicated stuff, then it's perfectly alright because new features enrich the platform, especially if you don't have to pay for them separately.
Yep. Widgets are the code that runs on the Konfabulator engine. They were invented for Konfabulator, and didn't exist before Konfabulator.
Certainly the idea of little mini utilities was not original, Desk Accessories in Classic MacOS had this with the calculator, puzzles, etc and most other operating systems have had similar things.
The idea of using simpler scripting languages running in an engine to simplify development was not original, and Javascript existed long before Konfabulator.
I don't believe even the idea of combining a user interface with a script system was original, after all this is what Hypercard, Mozilla's XUL, Real BASIC and many other things did long before Konfabulator.
What they did do was to come up with a very elegantly implemented way to develop desk accessories, lightweight utilities, etc by tying these ideas together but even this was done before by DesktopX on Windows.
Seems to me the idea behind Konfabulator (including it's widgets) can't be considered original at all.
You're not the only one. That's why we have 2 sets of laws: formal/civil and informal/moral ones. Some people even have a 3rd set for laws of logic. My opinion is that Apple is right from a pure legal point of view, damn wrong from a moral point of view, and somewhat illogical as you say. If you just don't give a damn about this complicated stuff, then it's perfectly alright because new features enrich the platform, especially if you don't have to pay for them separately.
Thanks for clarifying.
Yes, it seems illogical to me, especially because Apple has always had a very strong aura of being the computer-maker for the rest of us. What if one of those "us" decides to develop something cool/innovative/better? Being a developer shouldn't make you more one of those "us", rather than less?
Yes, definitely illogical. And I might add counter-productive in the long run...
Comments
http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html
Look at the stock prices chart. Notice the value and movement of AAPL and PIXR and the movement of MSFT.
Originally posted by Existence
Hehe...
http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html
Look at the stock prices chart. Notice the value and movement of AAPL and the movement of MSFT.
Apple has done the same thing with Dashboard, but with a cleaner (IMO) implementation. Again, they didn't write/design the widgets (for the most part), they just built the framework for them to sit.
Much like tools in a toolshed. People are screaming at Apple as though they STOLE Konfabulator's idea for a TOOL, when really all they did was build a different kind of shed. The tools are provided by the thousands of people who write these little widgets. Either it's me, or everyone is confused and thinks Apple stole this idea simply because they've seen 'widgets' before. Widgets AREN'T Konfabulor, Konfabulator is just the organizational platform...Am I wrong?
Originally posted by Sport73
Widgets AREN'T Konfabulor, Konfabulator is just the organizational platform...Am I wrong?
Yep. Widgets are the code that runs on the Konfabulator engine. They were invented for Konfabulator, and didn't exist before Konfabulator.
Originally posted by Mac Voyer
They have taken the idea and the implementation and bundled it with the OS. They did not already have a similar product that they decided to bundle to force out the competition. Think IE and the browser wars.
Agree 100%.
Hell, Microsoft got sued, and now we have here a full bunch of apologists willing to take it under their tails just cuz it's Steve's...
We're talking about developers here people, and this was a developer's conference. Arlo got screwed for being a developer! I would not, will not, develop for an Apple platform. Ever. Not after this.
And sadly, developers make the platform. I never thought I'd have found myself thinking this, but I fondly remember a tall, fat and sweaty guy coming on stage all dancing and jumping, all the time screaming "developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers..."
I paid for Konfabulator. I use it all the time, and liked it so much that I decided to pay. It's like the second or third time I do it (first one was Transit, back in the Good Old Days). But I did it to support the developer, who in my opinion, really deserved it. Now it's like Apple made Arlo's work meaningless, and my support for Konfabulator as well.
Thanks Steve, but after this you lost me (after 14 years).
ZoSo
Point 1: Don't waste time developing things in the public domain except for fun.
Point 2: Learning about legalisms is as important as learning about software engineering.
If you want to charge for something then somehow you need to protect it. You could use copyright to protect the look and feel. Someone could make the same function but somehow it would have to look different. Maybe different enough to let you keep your business alive. You could use software patents to protect some limited aspects of the product.
This is not fun but it seems that this is the world we live in.
Thanks Steve, but after this you lost me (after 14 years)
Bravo!!! Such Drama...my heart is touched by your emotional plea.
I swear, some of you people really freak me out with all this emotion. Arlo is just facing a bit of competiton, he'll be fine. Hell I get pissed off at Apple but it's business never personal.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Bravo!!!
Grazie.
Such Drama...my heart is touched by your emotional plea.
I swear, some of you people really freak me out with all this emotion. Arlo is just facing a bit of competiton, he'll be fine. Hell I get pissed off at Apple but it's business never personal.
Here we go. Apologist number one (and top-scorer under-the-tail taker only-if-it's-Steve's also).
Emotion? Competition?
It's principles, you freak. Ever heard of'em?
And it's not business: it's DEVELOPERS!
ZoSo
Originally posted by costique
If it weren't Apple, but another 3rd party ISV, I would seriously expect at least some credits. In case of a company, be it Apple, M$, Adobe or Quark, we should take it for granted. Unless they violate other people's copyrights.
Alright, law by the book. But if they really want to convince more people to develop for OS Decimus (sorry, sooner or later I had to say it, numbers in latin are adjectives) they should come out with something better than this.
It's like: "develop cool products for our platform! But wait, if your product is too cool and you're a small independent developer we might just screw you, rip-off your work, put you almost out of business and call it innovation".
Am I the only one seeing something wrong in this approach?
ZoSo
Originally posted by neutrino23
This all raises a good point. What can an independent developer do to protect their developments?
Point 1: Don't waste time developing things in the public domain except for fun.
Point 2: Learning about legalisms is as important as learning about software engineering.
If you want to charge for something then somehow you need to protect it. You could use copyright to protect the look and feel. Someone could make the same function but somehow it would have to look different. Maybe different enough to let you keep your business alive. You could use software patents to protect some limited aspects of the product.
This is not fun but it seems that this is the world we live in.
Point 3: Don't bitch about others stealing your idea if your idea was stolen from someone else (DesktopX et al).
Originally posted by hmurchison
Bravo!!! Such Drama...my heart is touched by your emotional plea.
I swear, some of you people really freak me out with all this emotion. Arlo is just facing a bit of competiton, he'll be fine. Hell I get pissed off at Apple but it's business never personal.
you're fan boy thing is in overdrive.
I just watched the keynote. Dashboard looks very nice. And its something that I have been waiting for every time I have needed to use the calculator in OS X or address book. I tried Konfabulator a while ago, thought it was nifty, but overall hated it. Seemed to just be cluttered and inefficient and didnt really solve the problems I wanted solved. Dashboard does. I'm all for dashboard..... I just think that Apple needs to wise up with this ripping off of developers without recognition/support. Hell, Watson won a frickin apple design award and then they go and make it their own. That's just low. Konfabulator, since I first used it, seems to have improved greatly, and is a very popular app in the mac community. Apple is hurting the wrong people with moves like these.
In a couple months this will all be forgotten, no one will care, people will be drooling over the latest preview of Dashboard, so whatever, I just think Apple needs to go about this stuff in a more professional/ethical/community way
That's an ethical quandry of its own. Just like Gracenote took the benevolent work of thousands of people and privatized it Konfabulator is counting on free labor to profit.
I will still consider buying Konfab and I will eyeball Sun's Karelia based product. However in the end it's a sad fact but technology added to the OS is better for the future. With housholds moving to multiple computers paying site licenses for shareware is even an expensive proposition. Apple might compete with some developers but remember there are thousands that Apple doesn't compete with.
Originally posted by JLL
Point 3: Don't bitch about others stealing your idea if your idea was stolen from someone else (DesktopX et al).
Point 4: bitch with a vengeance when an OS company wants you to develop for their platform and when your work is flourishing and ripe they rip-off what you've done.
ZoSo
Originally posted by hmurchison
However in the end it's a sad fact but technology added to the OS is better for the future.
We need coherence here: if you think it is right then stick with it. Otherwise, if it's wrong for one (picture yourselves Bill Gates saying that) is wrong also for everybody else. That's the fundamental principle of legality.
Unless some think this is really war (anyone need to get a life for a change?
ZoSo
Originally posted by ZoSo
Alright, law by the book. But if they really want to convince more people to develop for OS Decimus (sorry, sooner or later I had to say it, numbers in latin are adjectives) they should come out with something better than this.
It's like: "develop cool products for our platform! But wait, if your product is too cool and you're a small independent developer we might just screw you, rip-off your work, put you almost out of business and call it innovation".
Am I the only one seeing something wrong in this approach?
You're not the only one. That's why we have 2 sets of laws: formal/civil and informal/moral ones. Some people even have a 3rd set for laws of logic. My opinion is that Apple is right from a pure legal point of view, damn wrong from a moral point of view, and somewhat illogical as you say. If you just don't give a damn about this complicated stuff, then it's perfectly alright because new features enrich the platform, especially if you don't have to pay for them separately.
Originally posted by Borborygmi
Yep. Widgets are the code that runs on the Konfabulator engine. They were invented for Konfabulator, and didn't exist before Konfabulator.
Certainly the idea of little mini utilities was not original, Desk Accessories in Classic MacOS had this with the calculator, puzzles, etc and most other operating systems have had similar things.
The idea of using simpler scripting languages running in an engine to simplify development was not original, and Javascript existed long before Konfabulator.
I don't believe even the idea of combining a user interface with a script system was original, after all this is what Hypercard, Mozilla's XUL, Real BASIC and many other things did long before Konfabulator.
What they did do was to come up with a very elegantly implemented way to develop desk accessories, lightweight utilities, etc by tying these ideas together but even this was done before by DesktopX on Windows.
Seems to me the idea behind Konfabulator (including it's widgets) can't be considered original at all.
Originally posted by costique
You're not the only one. That's why we have 2 sets of laws: formal/civil and informal/moral ones. Some people even have a 3rd set for laws of logic. My opinion is that Apple is right from a pure legal point of view, damn wrong from a moral point of view, and somewhat illogical as you say. If you just don't give a damn about this complicated stuff, then it's perfectly alright because new features enrich the platform, especially if you don't have to pay for them separately.
Thanks for clarifying.
Yes, it seems illogical to me, especially because Apple has always had a very strong aura of being the computer-maker for the rest of us. What if one of those "us" decides to develop something cool/innovative/better? Being a developer shouldn't make you more one of those "us", rather than less?
Yes, definitely illogical. And I might add counter-productive in the long run...
ZoSo
does anybody here know when apple started developing dashboard?
no.
then shut up.
konfab was first to market, but that doesn't mean that apple wasn't already developing it. same with the whole watson deal.