Tiger games, Core Image, Video - a revolution?

Posted:
in macOS edited January 2014
Something just dawned on me...WHAT WILL THIS DO FOR GAMES???



Will we see new game companies spring up that only develop for the Mac, because they can do revolutionary things with core image and core video that will never run in Windows?



I'm a musician myself, so I know what core audio has done for music software. Try finding Amplitube Live for the PC! It's a piece of software that enables your mac to mimic different guitar amplifiers in realtime so you can play with this LIVE.



I. K. Multimedia havn't done this "LIVE" version of Amplitube for windows because....well....they just can't.



So will 2005 be the yeah when all Mac gamers will get the drooling envy of every PC user, because we got games that do AMAZING things on the screen ....????



I know....we're gonna loose sleep over this one right ? ))))



come kitty kitty kitty...come to daddy.......grrrrrr ROAR!
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 26
    Except music software are not designed for being sold to millions and millions of users, and historically, most musicians have always been Mac-fanatics (in the "Special Thanks" part of Version 2.0, Garbage put the 9500/200 they used to work with at the studio, Radiohead have always used Logic on Mac and love it, and they perform live with an iBook on stage to provide live effects, etc...).



    The game industry is not the same : building a game (not talking about Tetris but more about Warcraft 3 or Final Fantasy 11) costs a LOT, so Mac-only games won't ever do it, except for the little Tetris-likes, or except if Apple miraculously acquires 50% marketshare.

    That's a shame, because games coded using Core Image and Video would be thrilling, but that's the bottom of living in a capitalist world!
  • Reply 2 of 26
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Two things govern economics, regardless of market type: market size, cost to market.



    Obviously Mac game market size is smaller, but *still sufficient for many *HIGH*-end titles*... and Core* just dropped the cost to market even further.



    Expect to see smaller games looking freakin' kick-ass, and making the big boys have to scramble a bit to look worth their reputation... and price.
  • Reply 3 of 26
    zab the fabzab the fab Posts: 303member
    Quote:

    Except music software are not designed for being sold to millions and millions of users,



    So what you are saying is that the Game market is much bigger that the music market and that it would be even more lucrative if you were able to do something special?



    Quote:

    and historically, most musicians have always been Mac-fanatics (in the "Special Thanks" part of Version 2.0, Garbage put the 9500/200 they used to work with at the studio, Radiohead have always used Logic on Mac and love it, and they perform live with an iBook on stage to provide live effects, etc...)



    I'm not sure I follow your point on this one? What do you mean?



    Quote:

    The game industry is not the same : building a game (not talking about Tetris but more about Warcraft 3 or Final Fantasy 11) costs a LOT, so Mac-only games won't ever do it,



    So what your saying here is that when say Bungie started out and were only making games for the Mac, because they saw a huge opportunity in this small market as they did not have to compete with too many others (yes that was actually why), they were really....wrong?...unsuccessful?



    Quote:

    except for the little Tetris-likes, or except if Apple miraculously acquires 50% marketshare.

    That's a shame, because games coded using Core Image and Video would be thrilling, but that's the bottom of living in a capitalist world!



    Well seeing as game companies before have found it interesting to start off on the Mac market, and later go PC too when they have made some money, would Core Image and Video make this more or less interesting?
  • Reply 4 of 26
    zab the fabzab the fab Posts: 303member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Two things govern economics, regardless of market type: market size, cost to market.



    Obviously Mac game market size is smaller, but *still sufficient for many *HIGH*-end titles*... and Core* just dropped the cost to market even further.



    Expect to see smaller games looking freakin' kick-ass, and making the big boys have to scramble a bit to look worth their reputation... and price.




    See, that's what I'm wondering about! And IF smaller game companies will make games that look STUNNING and do UNREAL things on the screen without the latest and biggest card and without 100 programers sitting there month in and month out... what will the BIG companies do?



    Will they be able to make totally amazing things that will BLOW OUR MINDS? And IF they could, would they? or, why would they not???



    The next question would be, what happens if the next version of Unreal comes out in a Mac version (for much smaller cost than the PC version) using Core Image and Core Video... ?
  • Reply 5 of 26
    What I was saying about music is that the market is very different, not bigger or smaller, just different : games are cheap and made for mass-consumption, and are designed that way, whereas music apps are made for semi-professionnals to professionals (even GarageBand : I'm sure people who don't know anything about music get bored with it), so the level of exigence is not the same, and those apps are usually pretty expensive, etc... plus, just like I said, a lot of musicians use Macs so building music apps on Mac-only APIs is feasible from a marketing viewpoint.



    Games are coded to maximize profits : a game released on PC will be ported on the Mac by rewriting as few lines of code as possible, so no Core*...



    However, I agree with you and Kickaha : exceptions exist, and some developers may come with some incredible visually-stunning Mac-only games.

    Anyway, if those companies want to start on the Mac business and then go PC, I'm not sure they'll choose to implement the Core APIs... I dunno.

    Anyway, who knows? Apple has been porting a lot of things from Mac to Windows lately, so...!
  • Reply 6 of 26
    zab the fabzab the fab Posts: 303member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by The One to Rescue

    What I was saying about music is that the market is very different, not bigger or smaller, just different : games are cheap and made for mass-consumption, and are designed that way, whereas music apps are made for semi-professionnals to professionals (even GarageBand : I'm sure people who don't know anything about music get bored with it), so the level of exigence is not the same, and those apps are usually pretty expensive, etc... plus, just like I said, a lot of musicians use Macs so building music apps on Mac-only APIs is feasible from a marketing viewpoint.



    Games are coded to maximize profits : a game released on PC will be ported on the Mac by rewriting as few lines of code as possible, so no Core*...



    However, I agree with you and Kickaha : exceptions exist, and some developers may come with some incredible visually-stunning Mac-only games.

    Anyway, if those companies want to start on the Mac business and then go PC, I'm not sure they'll choose to implement the Core APIs... I dunno.

    Anyway, who knows? Apple has been porting a lot of things from Mac to Windows lately, so...!






    Yeah, and what is eating away my brain is the LEVEL of cool things they will be able to do with this. I think when tools like these become awailable, we'll see a flood of shareware games that outperform "professional" games on the PC...



    And how many "big game" companies would be needed to amplify the Tiger ROAR so loud that many PC users just give in and say aarrrrr to hxxx with it - I'M BUYING A MAC ! ! !
  • Reply 7 of 26
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Zab The Fab

    And how many "big game" companies would be needed to amplify the Tiger ROAR so loud that many PC users just give in and say aarrrrr to hxxx with it - I'M BUYING A MAC ! ! !



    Dunno... I'd definitely love to see Square Enix (Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest...) go Mac. If so, bam! Instant 80% marketshare for Apple in Japan!



    Anyway, I have the feeling that what we're witnessing now is the result of the "let's buy every high-end 3d/graphics/video company we can buy" campaign from Apple a couple years ago. And I'm sure this is only the beginning!
  • Reply 8 of 26
    talksense101talksense101 Posts: 1,737member
    It would make the MAC port of games much better. Problem is the number of people who will be using Tiger for the next few years. If all users migrated to Tiger when it was released, it would make sense to utilize the technology. If Apple can provide an easy development path for backward compatibility, it would work.



    How many of you saw the demo of core image and video? It was amazing to see the filters being applied to full motion video in realtime. You can do a lot with that kind of power in video games.
  • Reply 9 of 26
    stoostoo Posts: 1,490member
    CoreImage/Video ar based on programmable pixel shaders, which have are available to Windows programmers as part of DirectX 8/9. (I don't have any idea if DirectX API is easy to use as CI/CV).

  • Reply 10 of 26
    zab the fabzab the fab Posts: 303member
    I gotta say, this whole thing really makes my stomac twinch.....



    To show this system off to the world, and then not let us get it before next year is just pure EVIL I tell ya' ... !!!! PURE EVIL ! ! ! !
  • Reply 11 of 26
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by talksense101

    It would make the MAC port of games much better. Problem is the number of people who will be using Tiger for the next few years. If all users migrated to Tiger when it was released, it would make sense to utilize the technology. If Apple can provide an easy development path for backward compatibility, it would work.



    You're forgetting... game markets aren't driven by technology adoption penetration - it's the other way around.



    Serious gamers buy a $3k rig every *YEAR* just to play the latest and greatest games. Having a requirement of 'upgrading to Tiger' is *nothing* for the gaming market.
  • Reply 12 of 26
    a_greera_greer Posts: 4,594member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by talksense101

    It would make the MAC port of games much better. Problem is the number of people who will be using Tiger for the next few years. If all users migrated to Tiger when it was released, it would make sense to utilize the technology. If Apple can provide an easy development path for backward compatibility, it would work.



    How many of you saw the demo of core image and video? It was amazing to see the filters being applied to full motion video in realtime. You can do a lot with that kind of power in video games.




    Agreed, that is why apple needs to get this out, not take a loss perse, but make this a 25$ upgrade, encourage people to get the latest os and thus the best, to work with the new toys, not to mention the immenint new versions of iApps and pro apps like FCP, DVDSP, and MOTION 2...o baby...



    and the games, well, I cant wait to see aspyers nascar games that uses core*
  • Reply 13 of 26
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    Quote:

    Something just dawned on me...WHAT WILL THIS DO FOR GAMES???



    Interestingly enough, they will do very little for games.



    There are already popular APIs for harnessing the power of video cards in games. It's only desktop applications that seldom use these APIs. Games already use your GPU so CI and CV will not make games go quicker or look better.
  • Reply 14 of 26
    murkmurk Posts: 935member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by dfiler

    Interestingly enough, they will do very little for games.



    There are already popular APIs for harnessing the power of video cards in games. It's only desktop applications that seldom use these APIs. Games already use your GPU so CI and CV will not make games go quicker or look better.




    Has there been any actual info on new 3d stuff in Tiger? OpenGL 2.0?
  • Reply 15 of 26
    Quote:

    Originally posted by dfiler

    Interestingly enough, they will do very little for games.



    There are already popular APIs for harnessing the power of video cards in games. It's only desktop applications that seldom use these APIs. Games already use your GPU so CI and CV will not make games go quicker or look better.




    oh no....are you sure? Anybody else got insight (or iSight) on this?
  • Reply 16 of 26
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by dfiler

    Interestingly enough, they will do very little for games.



    Yes and no. It's true that it won't do much for the big guys, and especially not the cross-platform houses.



    However, what it's done for the little guys is significant. What matters there is not the availability of the tech, because OpenGL has always been there, but the ease with which these effects can be used and added and configured, and their quality. Anything that eases game development lowers the cost and the time to market, which makes the Mac market more desirable and profitable. In this case, since the Core* libraries can also increase the quality of the presentation — characteristically a weak point with games from smaller vendors — that will also help.



    What's particularly interesting to me is the combination of real-time effects and dynamism. The game can send Core Image parameters about what to do where and it just happens. This has a lot of potential. The likes of id or BioWare might not care, but Ambrosia, Strange Flavour, TQSoft, Freeverse... they're sitting up and taking notice. I suppose it might be possible for Westlake and the other porting houses to integrate Core* into their DirectX-compatible libraries, but I can't say for sure.



    On the subject of games: Is it just me, or is Dashboard also going to be a boon for all those little games that you play just to take a break?
  • Reply 17 of 26
    dfilerdfiler Posts: 3,420member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    Yes and no. It's true that it won't do much for the big guys, and especially not the cross-platform houses.



    Good point. I hadn't considered the little guys.



    Shareware devs can't spend their entire life tweeking a rendering engine. For them, it will put hardware accelerated effects within reach without needing to become low level driver monkeys.
  • Reply 18 of 26
    a_greera_greer Posts: 4,594member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorph

    ..On the subject of games: Is it just me, or is Dashboard also going to be a boon for all those little games that you play just to take a break?



    we have gone full circle with a twist...



    WOO HOO, my $3000 G5 can play semi-translucent solitaire...WOOHOOO
  • Reply 19 of 26
    airslufairsluf Posts: 1,861member
    Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.



    Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.



    Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
  • Reply 20 of 26
    algolalgol Posts: 833member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by AirSluf

    Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.



    Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.



    Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.




    holy fsck that was cool! But wtf is going on? lol
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