<strong>On top of that, Apple wants to maintain the great mac experience, and they have made a good business out of offering the different options that are currently available. Apple cant and wont offer a sub $500 P.O.S. for low income homes, low budget schools, and cheap people.
it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True. But the problem is that you can't have it both ways. You can't position yourself as an elitist platform, offering the best user "experience",charge high prices, and expect to capture the other "95%" of the market.
That may not be a big issue to professionals, but in the ever important educational market, Apple will continue to lose out to the Dell strictly on price.
If anything, Apple should be more aggressive with the eMacs/schools to build brand loyalty with kids from the outset.
<strong>Eman, no one is perfect, apple isnt, im not, you arent, no other computer company is, BUT i think he has a pretty strong grasp on the reality of the situation.
The mac platform is a different experience that that of the winblows world. Apple spends alot of money on R&D in hardware and software and there business structure differs from that of Dell for example. On top of that, Apple wants to maintain the great mac experience, and they have made a good business out of offering the different options that are currently available. Apple cant and wont offer a sub $500 P.O.S. for low income homes, low budget schools, and cheap people.
I hate to use a cliche, but there is a reason BMW doesn't offer cheap peace of sh1ts. They make top quality cars that you have to pay a premium for. No one is banging down their door to build a low-end car cause you can go out and buy a new Kia for 10 g's. Theyre just not gonna do it. Get over it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I understand what you're saying but also I'm not saying Apple needs to offer a sub $500 POS, but the eMac could be priced a little lower, say $799. The G3 iMac which is in the price range is just a horrible deal. An eMac for that price is doable and I think is a good idea for Apple.
I hate to use a cliche, but there is a reason BMW doesn't offer cheap peace of sh1ts. They make top quality cars that you have to pay a premium for. No one is banging down their door to build a low-end car cause you can go out and buy a new Kia for 10 g's. Theyre just not gonna do it. Get over it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
BMW did try to offer a cheap POS, called the 318ti. It was a total piece of crap. Notice that product got quickly dropped from the line.
<strong>When did the sun start rising in the west?</strong><hr></blockquote>
<philosophical mode>
The sun always starts rising in the west. Since it goes down there, it at the sime time starts rising for someone "more west" than you. Don't base your thinking around your point of view only!
<strong>Apple have screenless eMacs by the way. They're called PowerMac G4. You might have heard of them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's right to a certain extent. However, what's the lowest (i.e. education) end? It is Dual 867 mhz. And it features a lot of things (ram, hd space, networking features) which are not necessary in the relatively low key level that is education.
It costs way too much as well for educational purposes.
Also, Pulver, where did apple come from? Why did apple shoot to the stars in their first few years, you think? Because they offered an affordable computing solution for everybody.
I think Woz is, at least slightly, annoyed to see the elitist stance some of the Apple following take with regards to his legacy.
Hmm... Apple could offer a single processor 800 MHz (or so) PowerMac G4 to education. It's not THAT long ago that Apple produced single processor machines, and I'm sure the process of building those cases has come down in price, too.
Of course, this would also be interesting for the Gamer, because there you could exchange the graphics card with a new one.
Where can you find a $399 PC? I just went to Dell and priced out (home pricing, could not seem to get to the educational pricing) a basically equivalent machine to the eMac (with and without monitor).
$707 w/out monitor
$867 w/monitor (w/ a DECENT monitor, not the standard crap Dell defaults with.)
Granted Dell offers you a ton more options for configuration. But in an institutional environment I would guess they are likely to pick a single standard configuration anyway.
When is everyone going to learn you don't get something for nothing. Dell has always (and always will) attempt to compare (pardon the pun) apples and oranges. They will not directly compare, feature for feature, same quality components, etc. and then price it. You'll find that the pricing is fairly comparable to what Apple offers. Look at that $867 price.
Apple doesn't offer nearly the flexibility of configuration that Dell will. And that is a selling point for Dell. But when we start to package similarly equiped machines, we find the pricing isn't all that different.
P.S. Plus you can get an all-in-one eMac...fewer cables...less space...less power (the Dell COMPUTER itself uses 200 watts vs. 170 watts for the eMac. That doesn't count the monitor. Issues like power DO cost money too.)
I'm not saying that Apple is always better. I'm only saying the issue of cost is generally not nearly as simple as it is often made out to be.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I bought a Dell from their site on Sunday. $389. Gateway and eMachines also have $399 PCs. I am not sure what you had difficulty doing to find the $389 PC. It was on their front page of the HOME section. Not sure what's there right now. Regardless, Gateway and eMachines have $399 PCs all over the place. So, this 1.8 Ghz POS is worth all of the $389 I paid for it. I'd buy a headless iMac if they sold them, too. But the cheapest headless Mac was about $1500. That's a big difference. Again, I had to buy this for some Windows software that just wasn't cutting it under VPC emulation. I still have 5 other macs surrounding me as well. But, I have to say that this Dell, which we also use exclusively at work, is decent for $389. I do want to add some cheaper-than-dell memory to it today, though. 128MB is pretty thin, IMO. And, this PC will not be used for gaming, not in my plans at least.
BMW did try to offer a cheap POS, called the 318ti. It was a total piece of crap. Notice that product got quickly dropped from the line.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've got two friends who are brothers that both bought the 318 Ti Club Sport, and love(d) them. They are nice cars.
It is no longer about finding strategies for increasing Apple's share of the educational market - it's about ways to stop their demise from that sector. For years it has been argued, and rightfully so, that Apple's share of the educational sector is much larger than it seems, based on present sales. That was true. But now the oldest Macs have become so outmoded that they are being thrown out - due to the economic situation, not even replaced.
Apple has had success for several years by pursuing a strategy of "downsizing with the demand". At the moment they are harvesting the consequences: they have gone below the "critical mass" point in the educational sector - and that's going to hurt.
An eMac at a price point of less than $700 is needed to turn it around - but not possible. Few schools are in a position to offer a BMW experience to their students - they only have the means to offer VW Polos - at most.
The fundamentals of the educational sector are totally different from those of the private market, thus rendering several of the above comments insensical.
The day Apple Computer releases a $399 POS computer is the day they cease to be Apple Computer. I'm all for getting the price of the eMac down as low as possible but someone has to do things better. Call me an elitist but I would never want to run the Mac OS on a cheap PC box.
[quote]That's right to a certain extent. However, what's the lowest (i.e. education) end? It is Dual 867 mhz. And it features a lot of things (ram, hd space, networking features) which are not necessary in the relatively low key level that is education.
It costs way too much as well for educational purposes.<hr></blockquote>
I was expecting that. The "old" QuickSilvers are still in the channel you know and at very reasonable prices. Apple can't start making a machine for which there is only limited demand. If you need such a machine you will find it.
The "old" QuickSilvers are still in the channel you know and at very reasonable prices. Apple can't start making a machine for which there is only limited demand. If you need such a machine you will find it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like I said, why not just keep producing 'old' QuickSilvers for the education market? It's sure cheaper for Apple than to invent a new machine enclosure?
I was expecting that. The "old" QuickSilvers are still in the channel you know and at very reasonable prices. Apple can't start making a machine for which there is only limited demand. If you need such a machine you will find it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You really think there isn't a demand for a cheaper G4 Tower? Or a cheaper Mac without a built-in monitor? Plenty of people have stated that they'd buy one in the past. The only problem with Apple doing something like this is that it'll take sales away from the eMac and iMac but it really isn't unreasonable to want a decently priced Mac without integrated monitor.
Like I said, why not just keep producing 'old' QuickSilvers for the education market? It's sure cheaper for Apple than to invent a new machine enclosure?</strong><hr></blockquote>
They do. 867MHz single processor Quicksilver for $1252.
Comments
<strong>On top of that, Apple wants to maintain the great mac experience, and they have made a good business out of offering the different options that are currently available. Apple cant and wont offer a sub $500 P.O.S. for low income homes, low budget schools, and cheap people.
it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True. But the problem is that you can't have it both ways. You can't position yourself as an elitist platform, offering the best user "experience",charge high prices, and expect to capture the other "95%" of the market.
That may not be a big issue to professionals, but in the ever important educational market, Apple will continue to lose out to the Dell strictly on price.
If anything, Apple should be more aggressive with the eMacs/schools to build brand loyalty with kids from the outset.
<strong>Eman, no one is perfect, apple isnt, im not, you arent, no other computer company is, BUT i think he has a pretty strong grasp on the reality of the situation.
The mac platform is a different experience that that of the winblows world. Apple spends alot of money on R&D in hardware and software and there business structure differs from that of Dell for example. On top of that, Apple wants to maintain the great mac experience, and they have made a good business out of offering the different options that are currently available. Apple cant and wont offer a sub $500 P.O.S. for low income homes, low budget schools, and cheap people.
I hate to use a cliche, but there is a reason BMW doesn't offer cheap peace of sh1ts. They make top quality cars that you have to pay a premium for. No one is banging down their door to build a low-end car cause you can go out and buy a new Kia for 10 g's. Theyre just not gonna do it. Get over it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I understand what you're saying but also I'm not saying Apple needs to offer a sub $500 POS, but the eMac could be priced a little lower, say $799. The G3 iMac which is in the price range is just a horrible deal. An eMac for that price is doable and I think is a good idea for Apple.
<strong>Sorry if I ruffled any feathers, but you guys are just wishing for something that's never going to happen.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So much for Thinking Different.
<strong>
I hate to use a cliche, but there is a reason BMW doesn't offer cheap peace of sh1ts. They make top quality cars that you have to pay a premium for. No one is banging down their door to build a low-end car cause you can go out and buy a new Kia for 10 g's. Theyre just not gonna do it. Get over it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
BMW did try to offer a cheap POS, called the 318ti. It was a total piece of crap. Notice that product got quickly dropped from the line.
<strong>
So much for Thinking Different.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Parroting Dell is Thinking Different?
When did the sun start rising in the west?
<strong>When did the sun start rising in the west?</strong><hr></blockquote>
<philosophical mode>
The sun always starts rising in the west. Since it goes down there, it at the sime time starts rising for someone "more west" than you. Don't base your thinking around your point of view only!
</philosophical mode>
<strong>Apple have screenless eMacs by the way. They're called PowerMac G4. You might have heard of them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's right to a certain extent. However, what's the lowest (i.e. education) end? It is Dual 867 mhz. And it features a lot of things (ram, hd space, networking features) which are not necessary in the relatively low key level that is education.
It costs way too much as well for educational purposes.
Also, Pulver, where did apple come from? Why did apple shoot to the stars in their first few years, you think? Because they offered an affordable computing solution for everybody.
I think Woz is, at least slightly, annoyed to see the elitist stance some of the Apple following take with regards to his legacy.
Of course, this would also be interesting for the Gamer, because there you could exchange the graphics card with a new one.
<strong>
Where can you find a $399 PC? I just went to Dell and priced out (home pricing, could not seem to get to the educational pricing) a basically equivalent machine to the eMac (with and without monitor).
$707 w/out monitor
$867 w/monitor (w/ a DECENT monitor, not the standard crap Dell defaults with.)
Granted Dell offers you a ton more options for configuration. But in an institutional environment I would guess they are likely to pick a single standard configuration anyway.
When is everyone going to learn you don't get something for nothing. Dell has always (and always will) attempt to compare (pardon the pun) apples and oranges. They will not directly compare, feature for feature, same quality components, etc. and then price it. You'll find that the pricing is fairly comparable to what Apple offers. Look at that $867 price.
Apple doesn't offer nearly the flexibility of configuration that Dell will. And that is a selling point for Dell. But when we start to package similarly equiped machines, we find the pricing isn't all that different.
P.S. Plus you can get an all-in-one eMac...fewer cables...less space...less power (the Dell COMPUTER itself uses 200 watts vs. 170 watts for the eMac. That doesn't count the monitor. Issues like power DO cost money too.)
I'm not saying that Apple is always better. I'm only saying the issue of cost is generally not nearly as simple as it is often made out to be.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I bought a Dell from their site on Sunday. $389. Gateway and eMachines also have $399 PCs. I am not sure what you had difficulty doing to find the $389 PC. It was on their front page of the HOME section. Not sure what's there right now. Regardless, Gateway and eMachines have $399 PCs all over the place. So, this 1.8 Ghz POS is worth all of the $389 I paid for it. I'd buy a headless iMac if they sold them, too. But the cheapest headless Mac was about $1500. That's a big difference. Again, I had to buy this for some Windows software that just wasn't cutting it under VPC emulation. I still have 5 other macs surrounding me as well. But, I have to say that this Dell, which we also use exclusively at work, is decent for $389. I do want to add some cheaper-than-dell memory to it today, though. 128MB is pretty thin, IMO. And, this PC will not be used for gaming, not in my plans at least.
<strong>
BMW did try to offer a cheap POS, called the 318ti. It was a total piece of crap. Notice that product got quickly dropped from the line.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've got two friends who are brothers that both bought the 318 Ti Club Sport, and love(d) them. They are nice cars.
Apple has had success for several years by pursuing a strategy of "downsizing with the demand". At the moment they are harvesting the consequences: they have gone below the "critical mass" point in the educational sector - and that's going to hurt.
An eMac at a price point of less than $700 is needed to turn it around - but not possible. Few schools are in a position to offer a BMW experience to their students - they only have the means to offer VW Polos - at most.
The fundamentals of the educational sector are totally different from those of the private market, thus rendering several of the above comments insensical.
engpjp
It costs way too much as well for educational purposes.<hr></blockquote>
I was expecting that. The "old" QuickSilvers are still in the channel you know and at very reasonable prices. Apple can't start making a machine for which there is only limited demand. If you need such a machine you will find it.
<strong>
The "old" QuickSilvers are still in the channel you know and at very reasonable prices. Apple can't start making a machine for which there is only limited demand. If you need such a machine you will find it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like I said, why not just keep producing 'old' QuickSilvers for the education market? It's sure cheaper for Apple than to invent a new machine enclosure?
<strong>
I was expecting that. The "old" QuickSilvers are still in the channel you know and at very reasonable prices. Apple can't start making a machine for which there is only limited demand. If you need such a machine you will find it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You really think there isn't a demand for a cheaper G4 Tower? Or a cheaper Mac without a built-in monitor? Plenty of people have stated that they'd buy one in the past. The only problem with Apple doing something like this is that it'll take sales away from the eMac and iMac but it really isn't unreasonable to want a decently priced Mac without integrated monitor.
<strong>
Like I said, why not just keep producing 'old' QuickSilvers for the education market? It's sure cheaper for Apple than to invent a new machine enclosure?</strong><hr></blockquote>
They do. 867MHz single processor Quicksilver for $1252.
[ 11-23-2002: Message edited by: EmAn ]</p>
<strong>They do. 867MHz single processor Quicksilver for $1252.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh? Is that US only or Europe too? Might be interesting!
<strong>
Oh? Is that US only or Europe too? Might be interesting!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've got no idea if they have that model in Europe too. Can anyone answer this for him?