It looks like current eMac and iBook buyers will not have full Core Image functionality.
And why would a user with a current eMac and iBook need Core Image functionality? Those Mac models are entry level Macs, never intended to be used as Graphic work stations and priced as such.
Core Image functionality won't available for any Mac until Tiger is released anyway. That's ONE year away into the future.
i just bought an iBook G4 1Ghz 3 days ago, and now i have to hear that i won't support Core video en core imaging
that reallt makes me kinda angry. i spent a year of savings to an iBook, then to finally get it and then get the news that it won(t support the next thing that has been already developped. they knew that then didn't they.
they should upgrade the iBooks, eMacs and iMacs that don't support this technology that have been purchased within the forgoing 1.5 years of the release of the os.
else i have doubts about buying an other mac ever(since it's a word that jobs likes to use, like fastest EVER )
and very few poeple can afford to buy a mac every year or even 2 years, especially students, and since apple says that education is a very importtant market for them, they should also think about how long a machine lasts untill it's obsolete
else i have doubts about buying an other mac ever(since it's a word that jobs likes to use, like fastest EVER
Don't worry. Again your user experiene will scale depending on the equipment you have. I couldn't purchase a PC right now with many guarantees that I would be able to run MS Longhorn well. Enjoy your computer and when the times comes to replace it you get the speed boost and the technology of that time.
If you bought the iBook 3 days ago and you're unsatisfied, then return it. Most places have a 1 week to 10 day return policy, although some of those places will charge a restocking fee.
Having been burned with not being able to run QE on my TiBook-500 I feel your pain. If I were in your shoes I would return it and save up for a PowerBook or wait until the next iBooks come out.
1) Tiger will, in all likelyhood, run fine even on RAGE128/8MB graphics cards. No, you will not be able to see real time effects, just like those machines do not support Quartz Extreme.
2) There are sound technical reasons for this. Core* introduces those plugin units that are executed in the GPU. However, only the latest graphics chip generation supports this. In Windows-land this is known as DirectX 9. All older chips simply do not have fully programmable shaders which are an absolute requirement. The amount of VRAM does not matter, even a 256MB card without programmable shaders cannot lift this, while a 64MB card with shaders can.
Core* is akin to 64 bitness - you cannot have it even on fast older hardware, but you can work around the lack of it easily.
3) Apple will most likely provide a software-based fallback solution if you GPU is too old. No, it won't be real time, and yes it will be slow.
4) We are mocking MS for being late and slow regarding Longhorn? Well, the flip side is that in 2007 no-one will raise an eyebrow that they will require DX9 too. Apple's breakneck pace comes with a price, but you can only have one or the other...
5) Apple is announcing it *now* for delivery with an OS release one full year down the road and application support starting something like two years in the future. Seeing how some people here are threatening to withdraw their love from Apple unless they upgrade older machines, I suddenly understand their usual secrecy. Maybe they should stop preannouncing future feature at all and just unwrap them. This way, only customers who bought in the last three month bitch and not those who bought 1.5 years back (relative to release).
6) Yes, Apple should offer more BTO-configs for *Books and iMacs/eMacs, but the 5200 in the PowerMac is not a disgrace. A lot of people buy those machines not for watching the desktop wobble when some silly gadgets appear. As an example, as a software developer I am looking for raw CPU power rather than GFX performance and am hardly willing to pay $600 for a graphics card. I am not even sure I'd upgrade from $50 to $150 worth of GPU power.
Conclusion: don't get your panties in a bunch, people, this is future software and rightfully requires bleeding-edge hardware to spread its wings.
But Core Image automatically scales as appropriate for systems with older graphics cards, for compatibility with any Tiger-compatible Mac.
Don't panic, guys. My guess is that this API uses whatever the system is equipped with: basic PowerPC, AltiVec, SMP, and/or programmable GPU. Part of its purpose is to allow developers to write their code once and deploy it efficiently across all of these forms of hardware. If Apple has done a good job of it then the same code will run on an older machines single G3, or consume all of the processors in a SMT dual core dual chip and PCIe-equipped high end GPU.
As for all the guys bemoaning the 5200, (a 1.33 year old card at this point -- it was introduced March 2003) give it a rest. Its not as bad as you make it out to be for non-gaming uses. The weakness of this card is primarily its memory bandwidth, and this is mainly noticable when using anti-aliasing. CoreImage (and desktop apps in general) do not use anti-aliasing and thus aren't as sensitive to its impact on pixel rate. This card's vertex processing rate isn't up to 9800 standards, but then neither are its price and heat output! The 5200 should help the iMac's CoreImage performance noticably since it compares well with that machine's CPU. Even on a machine with stronger CPUs, the more work you can do in parallel, the better your net performance. The only time this isn't true is if it takes more work to distribute the task to all the processors than is saved by doing so... and that shouldn't be true of any modern GPU.
Take a look at the word "CORE" that should explain things in a significant manner. Core implies to me just that a central feature of the OS, it is not something that will be limited to Graphics workstations. Core Imaging will impact every program running on that revision of the OS or later.
The point with any eMac or iBook purchase at this juncture is that they have zero life span. Even the used market is likely to collapse as Tiger is taken up in the community. What we are talking about is a whole generation of features that the current iBooks will not be albe to take advantage of. The performance differences won't be significant they will be dramatic.
The point is that purchasing either of these computers is, at this point, silly if you expect to hold the purchase more than a year. The computers have gone from being a very good value to a much more questonable value, with the announcement of some of tigers features. If you not interested in Tiger, or expect replacement in the short term, then by all means consider the machines to be a good value. If on the other hand Tiger interests you at all then it probally is not a good idea to invest in the hardware expecting to make good use of Tiger or any of its other features.
Thanks
Dave
Thanks
Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by iPeon
And why would a user with a current eMac and iBook need Core Image functionality? Those Mac models are entry level Macs, never intended to be used as Graphic work stations and priced as such.
Core Image functionality won't available for any Mac until Tiger is released anyway. That's ONE year away into the future.
This is the dumbest argument in the long tawdry history of dumb arguments.
The Skinny:
Apple will (next year) upgrade its OS with an astonishing feature which allows software to take advantage of current GPU technology to best effect. This feature opens up new classes of image and video application - previously only available on dedicated workstations.
Incidentally - Microsoft intend to do something similar with their new OS due in two years (or thereabouts)
The upshot.
People moan about it. Our old hardware can't use this feature. Why has Apple treated us so cruelly - Boo Hoo!
What conclusion may we draw from this furore:
Here are some alternatives:
1) Conservative: Apple should not do this "innovation stuff" because it will piss-off owners of older hardware. Come to think of it. - They should go back to monochrome screens and dot matrix printers! Stylus PCs PAH! We want Quill support whippersnapper!
or
2) Communist: Apple is being elitest. It should do some magic which makes high performance GPU effects democratically available on ALL hardware. Perhaps they should upgrade us all for free. Each according to need!
or
3) Capitalist: This is a marketing ploy by Apple get us to buy new computers. THOSE BASTARDS!!!!! Who do they think they are?
or
4) Anarchist: I reject all forms of upgrade: If I can't have 150 innovation I certainly will not accept a mere 148. I spit on your Tiger! Perhaps I will pirate it. That'll show em.
or....
5) - My personal favourite : Realist: Apple has not treated you cruelly. They really haven't. They are agressively building an OS for the future- one which exploits present generation hardware to the max. By including this feature, a new computer will do more cool stuff. THIS IS A GOOD THING. PERIOD.
If they do a good job - your older hardware *will* work -but it will not be as fast. Hey, no shit Sherlock. You can't make a silk purse from an GeForce2MX y'know.
yes, ok, but they saw it all coming, you don't develop a technology on certain hardware if the hardware didn't exist yet.
they then deliberately choose to cheat the customers who bought an apple machine of this kind, that they knew it wouldn't support the new technology.
they could
1: inform customers about it not being supported
or
2: upgrade to a card that does support it.
No that runs counter to how the whole industry works. Either the hardware is far advanced and beyond current software capabilities(ie 3D card shader features and games that support them) or it's the inverse.
How can Apple inform customers about a product that might not ship for for a year?
Upgradeable video is something no one gets with a portable.
There are no excuses here. If you buy a portable your video today is locked in. There is a reason why it's always recommended that you purchase the fastest computer you can afford. It's future proofing yourself against new features coming down the pipe.
This is the dumbest argument in the long tawdry history of dumb arguments.
The Skinny:
Apple will (next year) upgrade its OS with an astonishing feature which allows software to take advantage of current GPU technology to best effect. This feature opens up new classes of image and video application - previously only available on dedicated workstations.
Incidentally - Microsoft intend to do something similar with their new OS due in two years (or thereabouts)
The upshot.
People moan about it. Our old hardware can't use this feature. Why has Apple treated us so cruelly - Boo Hoo!
What conclusion may we draw from this furore:
Here are some alternatives:
1) Conservative: Apple should not do this "innovation stuff" because it will piss-off owners of older hardware. Come to think of it. - They should go back to monochrome screens and dot matrix printers! Stylus PCs PAH! We want Quill support whippersnapper!
or
3) Capitalist: This is a marketing ploy by Apple get us to buy new computers. THOSE BASTARDS!!!!! Who do they think they are?
If they do a good job - your older hardware *will* work -but it will not be as fast. Hey, no shit Sherlock. You can't make a silk purse from an GeForce2MX y'know.
Carni
The reason people are upset. If you by a new Apple consumer machine today, you will not people to run core image and undisclosed key features of the OS that is due in 6 months or so. That is ridiculous. We aren't talking about rev a imac owners; i jus t bought an ibook. That is unreasonable that I will not be able to use core image. Am i being unrealistic, absoluteely not. People who bought their PCs last week will be able to use XP service pack 1 or what ever it is called.
So if Apple expects us to buy machines, and not have them work with a new feature 6 months later, that is unbelievable, and disappointing.
People who bought their PCs last week will be able to use XP service pack 1 or what ever it is called.
A service pack is bug fixes. Buying a PC today doesn't guarantee you can run Longhorns Aero Glass. If you want computer longevity don't buy the lowend models, they are built for those who are price conscious. This is really a non issue because Core Image/Video kicks in when you have capable hardware but if you do not you can still run the same apps. I know it's keen for some of you nitpick everything Apple does but it's always been this way for computers. New technologies require new hardware. Welcome to the real world.
A service pack is bug fixes. Buying a PC today doesn't guarantee you can run Longhorns Aero Glass. If you want computer longevity don't buy the lowend models, they are built for those who are price conscious. This is really a non issue because Core Image/Video kicks in when you have capable hardware but if you do not you can still run the same apps. I know it's keen for some of you nitpick everything Apple does but it's always been this way for computers. New technologies require new hardware. Welcome to the real world.
ordinarily i would agree a service pack is a bug fix, but the xp service pack is a real upgrade to hold off until longhorn. and well we all know longhoren will be out in 2006, 2 years from now. and tiger will be out in less than a year.
expecting your computer to handle upgraded software in the first year is reasonable.
Only if you have beyond the lowend model. This isn't an Apple issue. What people are in essence saying is that Apple should have OEM'd a more expensive graphics chip and ate the costs to appease the budget minded. Apple has a price point and a set margin range they want to hit. This doesn't afford them to opportunity to purchase as the nice whizbang stuff. People who have opted for the entry models and are now complaining are doing so from an irrational and emotive standpoint.
Comments
Here's what I hope the new iMac will feature:
1. At least a G5 at 1.8 GHz
2. Base price under $1000 without mpnitor (or under $1300 with LCD monitor)
3. PCIe architecture
4. PCIe slots (1 or 2)
5. x300 or x600 PCIe native DirectX9-compliant graphics hardware with 64MB memory minimum resting in one of the PCIe slots
If Apple meets my feature list, it should make a fine machine for the Core* future of the Mac.
Originally posted by Existence
It looks like current eMac and iBook buyers will not have full Core Image functionality.
And why would a user with a current eMac and iBook need Core Image functionality? Those Mac models are entry level Macs, never intended to be used as Graphic work stations and priced as such.
Core Image functionality won't available for any Mac until Tiger is released anyway. That's ONE year away into the future.
that reallt makes me kinda angry. i spent a year of savings to an iBook, then to finally get it and then get the news that it won(t support the next thing that has been already developped. they knew that then didn't they.
they should upgrade the iBooks, eMacs and iMacs that don't support this technology that have been purchased within the forgoing 1.5 years of the release of the os.
else i have doubts about buying an other mac ever(since it's a word that jobs likes to use, like fastest EVER
and very few poeple can afford to buy a mac every year or even 2 years, especially students, and since apple says that education is a very importtant market for them, they should also think about how long a machine lasts untill it's obsolete
ps: sorry for my bad english.
else i have doubts about buying an other mac ever(since it's a word that jobs likes to use, like fastest EVER
Don't worry. Again your user experiene will scale depending on the equipment you have. I couldn't purchase a PC right now with many guarantees that I would be able to run MS Longhorn well. Enjoy your computer and when the times comes to replace it you get the speed boost and the technology of that time.
Having been burned with not being able to run QE on my TiBook-500 I feel your pain. If I were in your shoes I would return it and save up for a PowerBook or wait until the next iBooks come out.
1) Tiger will, in all likelyhood, run fine even on RAGE128/8MB graphics cards. No, you will not be able to see real time effects, just like those machines do not support Quartz Extreme.
2) There are sound technical reasons for this. Core* introduces those plugin units that are executed in the GPU. However, only the latest graphics chip generation supports this. In Windows-land this is known as DirectX 9. All older chips simply do not have fully programmable shaders which are an absolute requirement. The amount of VRAM does not matter, even a 256MB card without programmable shaders cannot lift this, while a 64MB card with shaders can.
Core* is akin to 64 bitness - you cannot have it even on fast older hardware, but you can work around the lack of it easily.
3) Apple will most likely provide a software-based fallback solution if you GPU is too old. No, it won't be real time, and yes it will be slow.
4) We are mocking MS for being late and slow regarding Longhorn? Well, the flip side is that in 2007 no-one will raise an eyebrow that they will require DX9 too. Apple's breakneck pace comes with a price, but you can only have one or the other...
5) Apple is announcing it *now* for delivery with an OS release one full year down the road and application support starting something like two years in the future. Seeing how some people here are threatening to withdraw their love from Apple unless they upgrade older machines, I suddenly understand their usual secrecy. Maybe they should stop preannouncing future feature at all and just unwrap them. This way, only customers who bought in the last three month bitch and not those who bought 1.5 years back (relative to release).
6) Yes, Apple should offer more BTO-configs for *Books and iMacs/eMacs, but the 5200 in the PowerMac is not a disgrace. A lot of people buy those machines not for watching the desktop wobble when some silly gadgets appear. As an example, as a software developer I am looking for raw CPU power rather than GFX performance and am hardly willing to pay $600 for a graphics card. I am not even sure I'd upgrade from $50 to $150 worth of GPU power.
Conclusion: don't get your panties in a bunch, people, this is future software and rightfully requires bleeding-edge hardware to spread its wings.
From Apple.com/tiger:
But Core Image automatically scales as appropriate for systems with older graphics cards, for compatibility with any Tiger-compatible Mac.
Don't panic, guys. My guess is that this API uses whatever the system is equipped with: basic PowerPC, AltiVec, SMP, and/or programmable GPU. Part of its purpose is to allow developers to write their code once and deploy it efficiently across all of these forms of hardware. If Apple has done a good job of it then the same code will run on an older machines single G3, or consume all of the processors in a SMT dual core dual chip and PCIe-equipped high end GPU.
As for all the guys bemoaning the 5200, (a 1.33 year old card at this point -- it was introduced March 2003) give it a rest. Its not as bad as you make it out to be for non-gaming uses. The weakness of this card is primarily its memory bandwidth, and this is mainly noticable when using anti-aliasing. CoreImage (and desktop apps in general) do not use anti-aliasing and thus aren't as sensitive to its impact on pixel rate. This card's vertex processing rate isn't up to 9800 standards, but then neither are its price and heat output! The 5200 should help the iMac's CoreImage performance noticably since it compares well with that machine's CPU. Even on a machine with stronger CPUs, the more work you can do in parallel, the better your net performance. The only time this isn't true is if it takes more work to distribute the task to all the processors than is saved by doing so... and that shouldn't be true of any modern GPU.
Originally posted by Programmer
As for all the guys bemoaning the 5200, (a 1.33 year old card at this point -- it was introduced March 2003) give it a rest.
You know, it strikes me that several times I've heard people refer to the 5200 as two or even 3 year old card.
The point with any eMac or iBook purchase at this juncture is that they have zero life span. Even the used market is likely to collapse as Tiger is taken up in the community. What we are talking about is a whole generation of features that the current iBooks will not be albe to take advantage of. The performance differences won't be significant they will be dramatic.
The point is that purchasing either of these computers is, at this point, silly if you expect to hold the purchase more than a year. The computers have gone from being a very good value to a much more questonable value, with the announcement of some of tigers features. If you not interested in Tiger, or expect replacement in the short term, then by all means consider the machines to be a good value. If on the other hand Tiger interests you at all then it probally is not a good idea to invest in the hardware expecting to make good use of Tiger or any of its other features.
Thanks
Dave
Thanks
Dave
Originally posted by iPeon
And why would a user with a current eMac and iBook need Core Image functionality? Those Mac models are entry level Macs, never intended to be used as Graphic work stations and priced as such.
Core Image functionality won't available for any Mac until Tiger is released anyway. That's ONE year away into the future.
Originally posted by ollebolle
PLUS the current iMac 15" isn't supported too.
Current iMacs are already history.
The Skinny:
Apple will (next year) upgrade its OS with an astonishing feature which allows software to take advantage of current GPU technology to best effect. This feature opens up new classes of image and video application - previously only available on dedicated workstations.
Incidentally - Microsoft intend to do something similar with their new OS due in two years (or thereabouts)
The upshot.
People moan about it. Our old hardware can't use this feature. Why has Apple treated us so cruelly - Boo Hoo!
What conclusion may we draw from this furore:
Here are some alternatives:
1) Conservative: Apple should not do this "innovation stuff" because it will piss-off owners of older hardware. Come to think of it. - They should go back to monochrome screens and dot matrix printers! Stylus PCs PAH! We want Quill support whippersnapper!
or
2) Communist: Apple is being elitest. It should do some magic which makes high performance GPU effects democratically available on ALL hardware. Perhaps they should upgrade us all for free. Each according to need!
or
3) Capitalist: This is a marketing ploy by Apple get us to buy new computers. THOSE BASTARDS!!!!! Who do they think they are?
or
4) Anarchist: I reject all forms of upgrade: If I can't have 150 innovation I certainly will not accept a mere 148. I spit on your Tiger! Perhaps I will pirate it. That'll show em.
or....
5) - My personal favourite : Realist: Apple has not treated you cruelly. They really haven't. They are agressively building an OS for the future- one which exploits present generation hardware to the max. By including this feature, a new computer will do more cool stuff. THIS IS A GOOD THING. PERIOD.
If they do a good job - your older hardware *will* work -but it will not be as fast. Hey, no shit Sherlock. You can't make a silk purse from an GeForce2MX y'know.
Carni
they then deliberately choose to cheat the customers who bought an apple machine of this kind, that they knew it wouldn't support the new technology.
they could
1: inform customers about it not being supported
or
2: upgrade to a card that does support it.
Originally posted by ollebolle
yes, ok, but they saw it all coming, you don't develop a technology on certain hardware if the hardware didn't exist yet.
The hardware exists for some time now, but mostly in the professional Mac lines.
Originally posted by ollebolle
yes, ok, but they saw it all coming, you don't develop a technology on certain hardware if the hardware didn't exist yet.
they then deliberately choose to cheat the customers who bought an apple machine of this kind, that they knew it wouldn't support the new technology.
they could
1: inform customers about it not being supported
or
2: upgrade to a card that does support it.
No that runs counter to how the whole industry works. Either the hardware is far advanced and beyond current software capabilities(ie 3D card shader features and games that support them) or it's the inverse.
How can Apple inform customers about a product that might not ship for for a year?
Upgradeable video is something no one gets with a portable.
There are no excuses here. If you buy a portable your video today is locked in. There is a reason why it's always recommended that you purchase the fastest computer you can afford. It's future proofing yourself against new features coming down the pipe.
Originally posted by Carniphage
This is the dumbest argument in the long tawdry history of dumb arguments.
The Skinny:
Apple will (next year) upgrade its OS with an astonishing feature which allows software to take advantage of current GPU technology to best effect. This feature opens up new classes of image and video application - previously only available on dedicated workstations.
Incidentally - Microsoft intend to do something similar with their new OS due in two years (or thereabouts)
The upshot.
People moan about it. Our old hardware can't use this feature. Why has Apple treated us so cruelly - Boo Hoo!
What conclusion may we draw from this furore:
Here are some alternatives:
1) Conservative: Apple should not do this "innovation stuff" because it will piss-off owners of older hardware. Come to think of it. - They should go back to monochrome screens and dot matrix printers! Stylus PCs PAH! We want Quill support whippersnapper!
or
3) Capitalist: This is a marketing ploy by Apple get us to buy new computers. THOSE BASTARDS!!!!! Who do they think they are?
If they do a good job - your older hardware *will* work -but it will not be as fast. Hey, no shit Sherlock. You can't make a silk purse from an GeForce2MX y'know.
Carni
The reason people are upset. If you by a new Apple consumer machine today, you will not people to run core image and undisclosed key features of the OS that is due in 6 months or so. That is ridiculous. We aren't talking about rev a imac owners; i jus t bought an ibook. That is unreasonable that I will not be able to use core image. Am i being unrealistic, absoluteely not. People who bought their PCs last week will be able to use XP service pack 1 or what ever it is called.
So if Apple expects us to buy machines, and not have them work with a new feature 6 months later, that is unbelievable, and disappointing.
People who bought their PCs last week will be able to use XP service pack 1 or what ever it is called.
A service pack is bug fixes. Buying a PC today doesn't guarantee you can run Longhorns Aero Glass. If you want computer longevity don't buy the lowend models, they are built for those who are price conscious. This is really a non issue because Core Image/Video kicks in when you have capable hardware but if you do not you can still run the same apps. I know it's keen for some of you nitpick everything Apple does but it's always been this way for computers. New technologies require new hardware. Welcome to the real world.
Originally posted by hmurchison
A service pack is bug fixes. Buying a PC today doesn't guarantee you can run Longhorns Aero Glass. If you want computer longevity don't buy the lowend models, they are built for those who are price conscious. This is really a non issue because Core Image/Video kicks in when you have capable hardware but if you do not you can still run the same apps. I know it's keen for some of you nitpick everything Apple does but it's always been this way for computers. New technologies require new hardware. Welcome to the real world.
ordinarily i would agree a service pack is a bug fix, but the xp service pack is a real upgrade to hold off until longhorn. and well we all know longhoren will be out in 2006, 2 years from now. and tiger will be out in less than a year.
expecting your computer to handle upgraded software in the first year is reasonable.