I try and cut corners where i can so i can afford to buy macs... as of right now i ahvent bought any 3rd party devices because i dont want the inferior USB 2 solution (which I cant use anyway) and I dont see any reason to pay more for the functionally equivalent F/w solutions...
<strong>I try and cut corners where i can so i can afford to buy macs... as of right now i ahvent bought any 3rd party devices because i dont want the inferior USB 2 solution (which I cant use anyway) and I dont see any reason to pay more for the functionally equivalent F/w solutions...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh, so Apple should just abandon all its research and ultimately the splash and success FW2 will have just to save you 20 bucks today?
FW 1394 is about to pass as a genration and it is still arguably better than the current USB2 offering... The successor will far surpass it.
If you have a real compelling reason, lets hear it...
I haven't even heard of a high xfer device, such as DV cams, even prospecting USB 2.0.
And lastly, correct me if I am wrong, would not a USB 2 device be bottlenecked down to the slowest device on a chain ala SCSI? As in Hubs, etc?
And lastly, correct me if I am wrong, would not a USB 2 device be bottlenecked down to the slowest device on a chain ala SCSI? As in Hubs, etc?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The way USB is designed makes it impractical for daily chaining. If you connect a 1.1 device to a 2.0 device, you slow the whole bus to 1.1 speeds.
So much for backwards compatibility.
Firewire doesn't have this problem. Just plug the slower devices at the end of the chain.
It's a pity that Apple didn't adopt firewire earlier, back when it wass 100Mb/sec. However there's even less excuse for them dragging their feet now. C'mon Apple, may the better technology win!
<strong>And lastly, correct me if I am wrong, would not a USB 2 device be bottlenecked down to the slowest device on a chain ala SCSI? As in Hubs, etc?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hehe, this isn't really an issue, as USB doesn't even support daisy chaining in the first place.
USB 1.1 devices on a USB 2.0 device tree could potentially slow everyone down, but this hardly happens in real life as most mainboards have individual controllers per port (each with their own "private" device tree) - in that case, you can just plug all your 1.1 peripherals in one port, and all 2.0 peripherals into another one. If that's not possible, there are hubs that can connect 1.1 devices to a 2.0 bus without slowdowns.
When Apple descides to use USB 2, great whatever. But i couldnt care less if its tomorrow or 2004. This isn't a technology we should be THAT upset about not having yet.
Oh, so Apple should just abandon all its research and ultimately the splash and success FW2 will have just to save you 20 bucks today?</strong><hr></blockquote> who said anything about REPLACING F/W??I just want the option of USB 2.0 NOW since it is available now...
<strong> [quote]FW 1394 is about to pass as a generation and it is still arguably better than the current USB2 offering... The successor will far surpass it.</strong><hr></blockquote> I'm not arguing this point...i have already conceded it... because it is beside the issue...
<strong> [quote]If you have a real compelling reason, lets hear it...</strong><hr></blockquote> a compelling reason for what? including USB 2.0 instead of 1.1 in addition to F/W on every motherboard? because it wouldn't HURT anything... and it would offer greater CHOICE to consumers. It would also get apple's lineup somewhat up-to-date... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong> [quote]I haven't even heard of a high xfer device, such as DV cams, even prospecting USB 2.0.</strong><hr></blockquote> Who said that they would? The whole idea is to HAVE OPTIONS... "and we like having options" -SJ
<strong> [quote]And lastly, correct me if I am wrong, would not a USB 2 device be bottlenecked down to the slowest device on a chain ala SCSI? As in Hubs, etc?</strong><hr></blockquote>
even if this is true, what stops me from unplugging everything except the USB 2.0 device i am going to be using in order to get the fastest speed? (not an ideal option... but there is no reason why it shouldn't be there...)
<strong>This is just another example of how you pay more for less with Apple.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Only to those with myopic vision. Apple must continue to make Firewire a compelling proposition for Manufacturers. Adding USB 2.0 might save you money but you'll lose out on the benefits of Firewire once developers abandon it. Firewire is simply architected to offer a bit more functionality but Apple has to make sure to keep the products coming.
Well put. It seems like its hard for people to comprehend the fact that their are multiple reasons not to incorporate a technology besides "they just dont want someone else's faster bus on their machine".
I mean, stfu really.
You cant buy USB 2 stuff, cry me a river. How hard is it to find the same product in FW flavor give or take 10 bucks (and lets not argue over 10 bucks, are we THAT cheap?)
Apple must continue to make Firewire a compelling proposition for Manufacturers. </strong><hr></blockquote>If apple was interested in providing compelling solutions, they wouldn't have kept the license fee and 'firewire' brands up until the eve of usb2. [quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong> Adding USB 2.0 might save you money but you'll lose out on the benefits of Firewire once developers abandon it. Firewire is simply architected to offer a bit more functionality but Apple has to make sure to keep the products coming.</strong><hr></blockquote>Yeah that makes sense. Most computers come with usb2 and firewire now, but when apple shifts it's 3% of the market around, firewire is gonna fall off a cliff. </scarcasm>
Actually dude, when your dealing with a platform and a bus that over 50% of the digital video market uses (even if not exclusively macs) then yeah, things can change.
Apple may have less than 5% of the computer market, yet time and again, apple does something, others follow. Kinda ironic .
Other companies look to apple to show them the way though they may not come out and say it, its just the way the computer market has been for the last 5 years or so.
Apple can shake up the computer market with plenty of things they do. Plain and simple.
[quote] If apple was interested in providing compelling solutions, they wouldn't have kept the license fee and 'firewire' brands up until the eve of usb2. <hr></blockquote>
It's in Apple's best interests to profit from their hardwork. I thought the license was fair and Industry "Politics" more at play. No once complains to Intel about licensing and they are very restrictive
[quote]Yeah that makes sense. Most computers come with usb2 and firewire now, but when apple shifts it's 3% of the market around, firewire is gonna fall off a cliff. <hr></blockquote>
You haven't seen what Firewire can "really" do. For video it will remain "the" connectivity choice to computers. For small devices it's power features are ideal. For Audio Yamaha's mLAN is poised to finally take off with 10.3.
For Audio Yamaha's mLAN is poised to finally take off with 10.3.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let's hope you're right on this one. It has been awfully quiet in regards to mLAN lately, and hardly anyone except Yamaha themselves seems to really be embracing it (unfortunately).
<strong>Yeah that makes sense. Most computers come with usb2 and firewire now, but when apple shifts it's 3% of the market around, firewire is gonna fall off a cliff. </scarcasm></strong><hr></blockquote>
Where was USB 1 before Apple shifted one model within its 3% market share around?
<strong>Actually dude, when your dealing with a platform and a bus that over 50% of the digital video market uses (even if not exclusively macs) then yeah, things can change.
Apple may have less than 5% of the computer market, yet time and again, apple does something, others follow. Kinda ironic .
Other companies look to apple to show them the way though they may not come out and say it, its just the way the computer market has been for the last 5 years or so.
Apple can shake up the computer market with plenty of things they do. Plain and simple.</strong><hr></blockquote>So you think there are peripheral companies out there that want to produce usb2 counterparts, or companies that might consolidate production to usb2, but are waiting on apple to bundle the port? I fail to believe that there are lot of device makers in this situation and that apple is keeping FW viable.
The DV camera market, is probably where firewire and apple have the strongest presence. According to
<a href="http://www17.tomshardware.com/video/01q2/010515/"; target="_blank">this</a>, there have been ~18 million dv cameras sold, since 2000. The imac dvse was intro'd at the end of 1999. If we assume that every mac sold since then, ~10 million, is used for dv, then some mythical dv company has at most 55% potential mac customerbase with a FW product. A less ridiculous assumption would be 2-3 million users, constituting 14%. So, at best, apple is keeping a few usb2 dv cameras off the market.
I like FW, and it can live without apple using it exclusively.
Where was USB 1 before Apple shifted one model within its 3% market share around?</strong><hr></blockquote>USB support in win95 OSR2 wasn't solid. Windows 98 was released the same year as the first imac. Though I can't discount the imac's contribution to usb adoption. USB floppy drives were the top selling device for a while.
Not that usb1 on the imac is comparable anyway. Forcing all the customers into usb only isn't the same as adding usb2 to machines with firewire.
Comments
<strong>I try and cut corners where i can so i can afford to buy macs... as of right now i ahvent bought any 3rd party devices because i dont want the inferior USB 2 solution (which I cant use anyway) and I dont see any reason to pay more for the functionally equivalent F/w solutions...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh, so Apple should just abandon all its research and ultimately the splash and success FW2 will have just to save you 20 bucks today?
FW 1394 is about to pass as a genration and it is still arguably better than the current USB2 offering... The successor will far surpass it.
If you have a real compelling reason, lets hear it...
I haven't even heard of a high xfer device, such as DV cams, even prospecting USB 2.0.
And lastly, correct me if I am wrong, would not a USB 2 device be bottlenecked down to the slowest device on a chain ala SCSI? As in Hubs, etc?
<strong>
And lastly, correct me if I am wrong, would not a USB 2 device be bottlenecked down to the slowest device on a chain ala SCSI? As in Hubs, etc?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The way USB is designed makes it impractical for daily chaining. If you connect a 1.1 device to a 2.0 device, you slow the whole bus to 1.1 speeds.
So much for backwards compatibility.
Firewire doesn't have this problem. Just plug the slower devices at the end of the chain.
It's a pity that Apple didn't adopt firewire earlier, back when it wass 100Mb/sec. However there's even less excuse for them dragging their feet now. C'mon Apple, may the better technology win!
<strong>And lastly, correct me if I am wrong, would not a USB 2 device be bottlenecked down to the slowest device on a chain ala SCSI? As in Hubs, etc?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hehe, this isn't really an issue, as USB doesn't even support daisy chaining in the first place.
USB 1.1 devices on a USB 2.0 device tree could potentially slow everyone down, but this hardly happens in real life as most mainboards have individual controllers per port (each with their own "private" device tree) - in that case, you can just plug all your 1.1 peripherals in one port, and all 2.0 peripherals into another one. If that's not possible, there are hubs that can connect 1.1 devices to a 2.0 bus without slowdowns.
Bye,
RazzFazz
[ 12-02-2002: Message edited by: RazzFazz ]</p>
<strong>
Oh, so Apple should just abandon all its research and ultimately the splash and success FW2 will have just to save you 20 bucks today?</strong><hr></blockquote> who said anything about REPLACING F/W??I just want the option of USB 2.0 NOW since it is available now...
<strong> [quote]FW 1394 is about to pass as a generation and it is still arguably better than the current USB2 offering... The successor will far surpass it.</strong><hr></blockquote> I'm not arguing this point...i have already conceded it... because it is beside the issue...
<strong> [quote]If you have a real compelling reason, lets hear it...</strong><hr></blockquote> a compelling reason for what? including USB 2.0 instead of 1.1 in addition to F/W on every motherboard? because it wouldn't HURT anything... and it would offer greater CHOICE to consumers. It would also get apple's lineup somewhat up-to-date... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong> [quote]I haven't even heard of a high xfer device, such as DV cams, even prospecting USB 2.0.</strong><hr></blockquote> Who said that they would? The whole idea is to HAVE OPTIONS... "and we like having options" -SJ
<strong> [quote]And lastly, correct me if I am wrong, would not a USB 2 device be bottlenecked down to the slowest device on a chain ala SCSI? As in Hubs, etc?</strong><hr></blockquote>
even if this is true, what stops me from unplugging everything except the USB 2.0 device i am going to be using in order to get the fastest speed? (not an ideal option... but there is no reason why it shouldn't be there...)
<a href="http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0212/02.imaging.php"; target="_blank">camera direct printing</a>
<strong>This is just another example of how you pay more for less with Apple.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Only to those with myopic vision. Apple must continue to make Firewire a compelling proposition for Manufacturers. Adding USB 2.0 might save you money but you'll lose out on the benefits of Firewire once developers abandon it. Firewire is simply architected to offer a bit more functionality but Apple has to make sure to keep the products coming.
I mean, stfu really.
You cant buy USB 2 stuff, cry me a river. How hard is it to find the same product in FW flavor give or take 10 bucks (and lets not argue over 10 bucks, are we THAT cheap?)
USB 2 can wait , masterbate.
<strong>
Apple must continue to make Firewire a compelling proposition for Manufacturers. </strong><hr></blockquote>If apple was interested in providing compelling solutions, they wouldn't have kept the license fee and 'firewire' brands up until the eve of usb2. [quote]Originally posted by hmurchison:
<strong> Adding USB 2.0 might save you money but you'll lose out on the benefits of Firewire once developers abandon it. Firewire is simply architected to offer a bit more functionality but Apple has to make sure to keep the products coming.</strong><hr></blockquote>Yeah that makes sense. Most computers come with usb2 and firewire now, but when apple shifts it's 3% of the market around, firewire is gonna fall off a cliff. </scarcasm>
Apple may have less than 5% of the computer market, yet time and again, apple does something, others follow. Kinda ironic
Other companies look to apple to show them the way though they may not come out and say it, its just the way the computer market has been for the last 5 years or so.
Apple can shake up the computer market with plenty of things they do. Plain and simple.
It's in Apple's best interests to profit from their hardwork. I thought the license was fair and Industry "Politics" more at play. No once complains to Intel about licensing and they are very restrictive
[quote]Yeah that makes sense. Most computers come with usb2 and firewire now, but when apple shifts it's 3% of the market around, firewire is gonna fall off a cliff. <hr></blockquote>
You haven't seen what Firewire can "really" do. For video it will remain "the" connectivity choice to computers. For small devices it's power features are ideal. For Audio Yamaha's mLAN is poised to finally take off with 10.3.
<strong>
For Audio Yamaha's mLAN is poised to finally take off with 10.3.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let's hope you're right on this one. It has been awfully quiet in regards to mLAN lately, and hardly anyone except Yamaha themselves seems to really be embracing it (unfortunately).
Bye,
RazzFazz
<strong>Yeah that makes sense. Most computers come with usb2 and firewire now, but when apple shifts it's 3% of the market around, firewire is gonna fall off a cliff. </scarcasm></strong><hr></blockquote>
Where was USB 1 before Apple shifted one model within its 3% market share around?
<strong>Actually dude, when your dealing with a platform and a bus that over 50% of the digital video market uses (even if not exclusively macs) then yeah, things can change.
Apple may have less than 5% of the computer market, yet time and again, apple does something, others follow. Kinda ironic
Other companies look to apple to show them the way though they may not come out and say it, its just the way the computer market has been for the last 5 years or so.
Apple can shake up the computer market with plenty of things they do. Plain and simple.</strong><hr></blockquote>So you think there are peripheral companies out there that want to produce usb2 counterparts, or companies that might consolidate production to usb2, but are waiting on apple to bundle the port? I fail to believe that there are lot of device makers in this situation and that apple is keeping FW viable.
The DV camera market, is probably where firewire and apple have the strongest presence. According to
<a href="http://www17.tomshardware.com/video/01q2/010515/"; target="_blank">this</a>, there have been ~18 million dv cameras sold, since 2000. The imac dvse was intro'd at the end of 1999. If we assume that every mac sold since then, ~10 million, is used for dv, then some mythical dv company has at most 55% potential mac customerbase with a FW product. A less ridiculous assumption would be 2-3 million users, constituting 14%. So, at best, apple is keeping a few usb2 dv cameras off the market.
I like FW, and it can live without apple using it exclusively.
<strong>
Where was USB 1 before Apple shifted one model within its 3% market share around?</strong><hr></blockquote>USB support in win95 OSR2 wasn't solid. Windows 98 was released the same year as the first imac. Though I can't discount the imac's contribution to usb adoption. USB floppy drives were the top selling device for a while.
Not that usb1 on the imac is comparable anyway. Forcing all the customers into usb only isn't the same as adding usb2 to machines with firewire.