Chris Cuilla, may I ask why Apple built in something so desirable into TextEdit and didn't bother to turn it on? If Microsoft isn't seeing Apple as a threat, then what does Apple have to lose? You may as well go out and buy yourself a nice new car that has air bags, GPS system, and four wheel antilock disc brakes. Only to be told by some insider that none of that stuff was actually hooked up and you can't make it work. It's just in the car so that the manufacturer can know it's there. Now that Apple is a profitable company due to innovation, what reason does Apple have to be pushed around by the Redmond gorilla? Isn't it time Apple call Microsoft's bluff? Other computer manufacturers have started using alternative office applications now for some time. Their world hasn't ended. I'm just surprised to see Jobs pouting in the corner with his thumb in his mouth when it comes to the whole Redmond issue. We all know Apple is better than Microsoft. They're better in every aspect. Can anyone stand up and with 100% certainty state that Apple is incapable of launching an Office killer that would not only be better than Office, but offer features and options that MS Office does not? It's absurd to believe that Apple can't do it. Anyone who says that Apple "needs" Microsoft is suffering from battered spouse syndrome. The people at large simply need to be educated on options. That's what Apple did with the whole MHz myth. Now look what Intel and AMD have done. I'm tired of everyone standing up and shouting that it's impossible to do. An office killer by Apple is precisely what everyone needs. Imagine what the world would be like if Ford dominated the world auto market and refused to allow any other manufacturer to really get a foothold in the market. Perhaps Steve just needs to stand up and kick some ass.
With regards to a Photoshop-alternative, it appears to me that Apple really wouldn't have to build the thing themselves.
All they need to do is implement the Core Image stuff, write a memo entitled "How to build a Mac Photoshop clone in 30 days or less" and then Fedex it to Denver, Colorado.
Chris Cuilla, may I ask why Apple built in something so desirable into TextEdit and didn't bother to turn it on? If Microsoft isn't seeing Apple as a threat, then what does Apple have to lose? You may as well go out and buy yourself a nice new car that has air bags, GPS system, and four wheel antilock disc brakes. Only to be told by some insider that none of that stuff was actually hooked up and you can't make it work.
This is typical Apple behavior in OS X. There are many unexposed APIs in Mac OS X, and plenty of 'haxies' that poke around exploiting them (which of course get broken in subsequent OS updates).
If Apple hasn't exposed an API, that usually means that it's not ready for general use yet.
Apple's been doing a lot of work on OS X's text capabilities. They want it all to work as seamlessly and automagically as possible. In the meantime, the stuff that isn't quite there is stuffed into private frameworks, or not shipped at all.
I actually expect something like Core Text (they might not call it that, though) to be one of the surprises in Tiger. Panther's support is almost there...
Amorph, That would be an interesting addition, though in and of itself, it does nothing to provide Apple users with a comprehensive office suite beyond the limited offerings present today. TextEdit is a great tool for plenty of uses, but doesn't quite do it for me. Other offerings such as Mariner Write are sluggish, and buggy on my 1.25 PB. This "Core Text", or whatever it'll be sounds to me like Apple is just getting other people the opportunity to use the frameworks while Apple kicks up it's heels and innovates more with the iPod because that's where they are making money and feeling significant and good about themselves, meanwhile, Appleworks has got a nice new box design that they did last year I think it was. I'd imagine that if Steve actually had to use this stuff on a daily basis that things would improve quickly.
Chris Cuilla, may I ask why Apple built in something so desirable into TextEdit and didn't bother to turn it on?
Not quite ready? No need, yet?
Quote:
You may as well go out and buy yourself a nice new car that has air bags, GPS system, and four wheel antilock disc brakes. Only to be told by some insider that none of that stuff was actually hooked up and you can't make it work. It's just in the car so that the manufacturer can know it's there.
Poor analogy. Apple isn't really touting TextEdit as a word process. I'm just saying that the pieces are there for them to make one if they want to.
Quote:
Now that Apple is a profitable company due to innovation, what reason does Apple have to be pushed around by the Redmond gorilla?
Well, if only it were that simple.
Quote:
Isn't it time Apple call Microsoft's bluff?
I, for one, think they might actually be prepared to do exactly this. If Apple did not immediately begin development of a MS Office alternative after they were blackmailed 6-7 years ago, they are stupid. I believe they are not stupid...and that next time MS comes threatening, Steve can get up, say "Fine. Pull it. Bye." and walk over to the "Apple Office" guys and say, "Let's Go."
Quote:
I'm just surprised to see Jobs pouting in the corner with his thumb in his mouth when it comes to the whole Redmond issue.
Don't be silly. He isn't. He's being cautious and wise though.
Quote:
The people at large simply need to be educated on options.
Sometimes that works. Sometimes not.
Quote:
That's what Apple did with the whole MHz myth. Now look what Intel and AMD have done.
This hasn't happened because of Apple's education campaign.
Quote:
I'm tired of everyone standing up and shouting that it's impossible to do.
I'm not saying it is impossible. Quite the opposite. But for everything there is a time.
I hope a Windows version is being developed in parallel. When the time comes to deploy, and MS tries to pull Office, Jobs can say "If you pull Office for Mac entirely from the shelves, we'll release a Windows version of our suite, and it's half the price of yours."
Let's see how Gates reacts to someone telling him to "knife his baby."
I have to say that when it comes to significant moves that the world would notice, that move would certainly be one. The impact of a viable alternative loaded with features and more functional than MS Office at a fraction of the cost would have many raising their eyebrows.
I'm sure Apple has some good stuff in the code bank. I totally believe TS when they had that story on "Document". Just look at Keynote in version 1 compared to Powerpoint and imagine what nice work Apple has probably done in this "Document" app? Keynote actually makes you "want" to do a presentation.
Apple's gone long enough without a decent suite. I admit I do like seeing the integration MS has done with MSO. The way the apps share data and interface features. Apple would take that to the next level.
I really don't care if there's a PC version. I think Microsoft would be far less insulted if AO was Mac only. Once it developed some notoriety then it would give Apple leverage. Apple would then want to do this.
1. Make AO the coolest and I mean coolest Office Suite out there.
2. Ship a Linux version before Windows. That'll rankle MS good.
3. Then bring it to Windows and let the fight get dirty.
Dvorak is now claiming that Apple has been talking with Sun about StarOffice and that Microsoft's recent investment in Sun will pull the rug from under them.
Sounds plausible. I wonder if he's just speculating or actually has inside info.
Dvorak is now claiming that Apple has been talking with Sun about StarOffice and that Microsoft's recent investment in Sun will pull the rug from under them.
Sounds plausible. I wonder if he's just speculating or actually has inside info.
I always thought that rumor was strange, the one where Apple brings Staroffice to Mac. It just seemed so redundant because Apple has Appleworks code to work from and one rumor had ex-Apple employees who left to form Gobe Software came back to the fold once Gobe went belly up.
The thought is that Apple has plenty capable staff right now to complete their own suite. Somehow I think Apple wanted Staroffice on the platform because it was a way off trying to at least throw up an indirect roadblock to MSO without Apple being the one with the finger being pointed at them.
We truly won't know how strong the Mac platform is until we can envision prosperity without the guillotine of MSO hangin over our heads. Photoshop in all its glory doesn't even come close to the Sauron'like dark cloud that .doc casts over every platform.
I think all of you all are looking at the wrong program.
There are plenty of word processors that are the Keynote to Microsoft's Word -- ie, doing 90% of the stuff people spend 90% of the time doing with the program. Nisus Writer Express 2, when it ships later this summer, should easily fill most needs for most Mac word-processor users, including Styles support, improvements on Nisus' already-good .DOC importing, and the other goodies you expect in a word processor like footnotes, endnotes and tables. [url=http://www.nisus.com/]Look here.[/urk] Nisus Writer Express 1 already has a solid, usable interface. Version 2 will put some power behind that beauty.
Keynote responds well to PowerPoint, again using the 90/90 model.
And Apple has a very usable Entourage-riposte in iCal/Mail/iChat/Address Book. All they would need to add for an "Office" package is a program, say Communication, which provides a unified, interlinked interface on the System databases each of these programs employs, and you've got your Apple PIM right there.
The missing piece is Excel. How do you replace Excel? To hit the 90% of Excel that 90% of people will use, that's a lot of ground to cover. People don't make macros very often, but many businesses expect macro functionality, as well as advanced cell formula parsing. Excel is the real power behind Office -- it's powerful, it's fast, it's the easiest-to-use professional spreadsheet on the market. It's also the component of Office that's hardest to replace. Perhaps Apple could build something out of OpenOffice's Calc code, but that's all C++ code, which means no Cocoa, no Services, etc. That would be a let down compared to Keynote. So how do you clone Excel?
.DOC may get all the press, but it's hard to overestimate the importance of the .XLS format.
All that would require is a new Word Processor and AppleWorks 7.0
It wouldn't immediately chase Microsoft off the platform, while making Redmond very aware that only a spreadsheet program stands between peace and all-out war.
It would serve as a warning that they shouldn't tick Jobs off.
I just don't think Apple has any intention of coming out with an office suite in the forseeable future. They have been more focused on coming out with software that fills holes where development has been light to nil.
Office, whether you like it or not, is still being developed. It is a bridge for most of us to be able to use Macs in a PC environment.
When Apple came out with Keynote, this in my estimation was only to get MS off their ass and make the weakest part of the Suite step up to the plate. What else could explain why after all of this time Apple has not done anything at all to Keynote. (And notice that Powerpoint did add some nice features in the 2004 version...and no, I do not like Powerpoint or those type of presentations.)
Right now, I have to use MS office suite if I want to use a Mac in an all PC work environment. It certainly isn't as bad as a lot of people make it out to be. And I don't see Nisus, Mellel, or Mariner getting anywhere close to what corporate users need (or most likely have been led to believe what they need) in the near future.
Buy up Painter from Corel or better, buy up Corel!
Lemon Bon Bon
ding ding ding ding!!!
I've been saying this for 3 years!!!
Open the checkbook and buy Corel Office!
It instantly solves a heap of issues that would otherwise come with releasing an Apple written AOS.
1. Instant name recognition. Word Perfect used to have quite a name in the word processing field. The high school that I graduated from (1999) used Word Perfect exclusively.
Plus, a lot of PC's now (HP's, some Dells) are actually shipping with Corel Office bundled.
Sure, Corel hasn't exactly been swift in updates and features...but this could easily be solved by taking it in house in AAPL HQ.
2. You easily get around all of the political BS that would otherwise come with releasing an AOS. If Billy Boy comes knocking on the door....all Stevey Boy has to say is...."well Bill, Corel is availible on the Windows side...we just thought it would be nice to be able to offer it to our Mac customers as well. (with continued support for windows versions)
Billy Boy can't really pull Office out...cause Steve's right. They peacefully co-exsist in the window's world...why can't they in the Apple world?
Comments
All they need to do is implement the Core Image stuff, write a memo entitled "How to build a Mac Photoshop clone in 30 days or less" and then Fedex it to Denver, Colorado.
Originally posted by Brian Green
Chris Cuilla, may I ask why Apple built in something so desirable into TextEdit and didn't bother to turn it on? If Microsoft isn't seeing Apple as a threat, then what does Apple have to lose? You may as well go out and buy yourself a nice new car that has air bags, GPS system, and four wheel antilock disc brakes. Only to be told by some insider that none of that stuff was actually hooked up and you can't make it work.
This is typical Apple behavior in OS X. There are many unexposed APIs in Mac OS X, and plenty of 'haxies' that poke around exploiting them (which of course get broken in subsequent OS updates).
Hopefully this will change as the OS matures.
Apple's been doing a lot of work on OS X's text capabilities. They want it all to work as seamlessly and automagically as possible. In the meantime, the stuff that isn't quite there is stuffed into private frameworks, or not shipped at all.
I actually expect something like Core Text (they might not call it that, though) to be one of the surprises in Tiger. Panther's support is almost there...
Originally posted by Brian Green
Chris Cuilla, may I ask why Apple built in something so desirable into TextEdit and didn't bother to turn it on?
Not quite ready? No need, yet?
You may as well go out and buy yourself a nice new car that has air bags, GPS system, and four wheel antilock disc brakes. Only to be told by some insider that none of that stuff was actually hooked up and you can't make it work. It's just in the car so that the manufacturer can know it's there.
Poor analogy. Apple isn't really touting TextEdit as a word process. I'm just saying that the pieces are there for them to make one if they want to.
Now that Apple is a profitable company due to innovation, what reason does Apple have to be pushed around by the Redmond gorilla?
Well, if only it were that simple.
Isn't it time Apple call Microsoft's bluff?
I, for one, think they might actually be prepared to do exactly this. If Apple did not immediately begin development of a MS Office alternative after they were blackmailed 6-7 years ago, they are stupid. I believe they are not stupid...and that next time MS comes threatening, Steve can get up, say "Fine. Pull it. Bye." and walk over to the "Apple Office" guys and say, "Let's Go."
I'm just surprised to see Jobs pouting in the corner with his thumb in his mouth when it comes to the whole Redmond issue.
Don't be silly. He isn't. He's being cautious and wise though.
The people at large simply need to be educated on options.
Sometimes that works. Sometimes not.
That's what Apple did with the whole MHz myth. Now look what Intel and AMD have done.
This hasn't happened because of Apple's education campaign.
I'm tired of everyone standing up and shouting that it's impossible to do.
I'm not saying it is impossible. Quite the opposite. But for everything there is a time.
I hope a Windows version is being developed in parallel. When the time comes to deploy, and MS tries to pull Office, Jobs can say "If you pull Office for Mac entirely from the shelves, we'll release a Windows version of our suite, and it's half the price of yours."
Let's see how Gates reacts to someone telling him to "knife his baby."
Apple's gone long enough without a decent suite. I admit I do like seeing the integration MS has done with MSO. The way the apps share data and interface features. Apple would take that to the next level.
I really don't care if there's a PC version. I think Microsoft would be far less insulted if AO was Mac only. Once it developed some notoriety then it would give Apple leverage. Apple would then want to do this.
1. Make AO the coolest and I mean coolest Office Suite out there.
2. Ship a Linux version before Windows. That'll rankle MS good.
3. Then bring it to Windows and let the fight get dirty.
Sounds plausible. I wonder if he's just speculating or actually has inside info.
Originally posted by Frank777
Dvorak is now claiming that Apple has been talking with Sun about StarOffice and that Microsoft's recent investment in Sun will pull the rug from under them.
Sounds plausible. I wonder if he's just speculating or actually has inside info.
I always thought that rumor was strange, the one where Apple brings Staroffice to Mac. It just seemed so redundant because Apple has Appleworks code to work from and one rumor had ex-Apple employees who left to form Gobe Software came back to the fold once Gobe went belly up.
The thought is that Apple has plenty capable staff right now to complete their own suite. Somehow I think Apple wanted Staroffice on the platform because it was a way off trying to at least throw up an indirect roadblock to MSO without Apple being the one with the finger being pointed at them.
We truly won't know how strong the Mac platform is until we can envision prosperity without the guillotine of MSO hangin over our heads. Photoshop in all its glory doesn't even come close to the Sauron'like dark cloud that .doc casts over every platform.
There are plenty of word processors that are the Keynote to Microsoft's Word -- ie, doing 90% of the stuff people spend 90% of the time doing with the program. Nisus Writer Express 2, when it ships later this summer, should easily fill most needs for most Mac word-processor users, including Styles support, improvements on Nisus' already-good .DOC importing, and the other goodies you expect in a word processor like footnotes, endnotes and tables. [url=http://www.nisus.com/]Look here.[/urk] Nisus Writer Express 1 already has a solid, usable interface. Version 2 will put some power behind that beauty.
Keynote responds well to PowerPoint, again using the 90/90 model.
And Apple has a very usable Entourage-riposte in iCal/Mail/iChat/Address Book. All they would need to add for an "Office" package is a program, say Communication, which provides a unified, interlinked interface on the System databases each of these programs employs, and you've got your Apple PIM right there.
The missing piece is Excel. How do you replace Excel? To hit the 90% of Excel that 90% of people will use, that's a lot of ground to cover. People don't make macros very often, but many businesses expect macro functionality, as well as advanced cell formula parsing. Excel is the real power behind Office -- it's powerful, it's fast, it's the easiest-to-use professional spreadsheet on the market. It's also the component of Office that's hardest to replace. Perhaps Apple could build something out of OpenOffice's Calc code, but that's all C++ code, which means no Cocoa, no Services, etc. That would be a let down compared to Keynote. So how do you clone Excel?
.DOC may get all the press, but it's hard to overestimate the importance of the .XLS format.
But Apple has shown more of a focus on the Consumer market than Small Business. Maybe their suite would too.
Maybe they'd compete more directly with Microsoft's Consumer Suite.
All that would require is a new Word Processor and AppleWorks 7.0
It wouldn't immediately chase Microsoft off the platform, while making Redmond very aware that only a spreadsheet program stands between peace and all-out war.
It would serve as a warning that they shouldn't tick Jobs off.
Office, whether you like it or not, is still being developed. It is a bridge for most of us to be able to use Macs in a PC environment.
When Apple came out with Keynote, this in my estimation was only to get MS off their ass and make the weakest part of the Suite step up to the plate. What else could explain why after all of this time Apple has not done anything at all to Keynote. (And notice that Powerpoint did add some nice features in the 2004 version...and no, I do not like Powerpoint or those type of presentations.)
Right now, I have to use MS office suite if I want to use a Mac in an all PC work environment. It certainly isn't as bad as a lot of people make it out to be. And I don't see Nisus, Mellel, or Mariner getting anywhere close to what corporate users need (or most likely have been led to believe what they need) in the near future.
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Like the thread.
Buy up Painter from Corel or better, buy up Corel!
Lemon Bon Bon
ding ding ding ding!!!
I've been saying this for 3 years!!!
Open the checkbook and buy Corel Office!
It instantly solves a heap of issues that would otherwise come with releasing an Apple written AOS.
1. Instant name recognition. Word Perfect used to have quite a name in the word processing field. The high school that I graduated from (1999) used Word Perfect exclusively.
Plus, a lot of PC's now (HP's, some Dells) are actually shipping with Corel Office bundled.
Sure, Corel hasn't exactly been swift in updates and features...but this could easily be solved by taking it in house in AAPL HQ.
2. You easily get around all of the political BS that would otherwise come with releasing an AOS. If Billy Boy comes knocking on the door....all Stevey Boy has to say is...."well Bill, Corel is availible on the Windows side...we just thought it would be nice to be able to offer it to our Mac customers as well. (with continued support for windows versions)
Billy Boy can't really pull Office out...cause Steve's right. They peacefully co-exsist in the window's world...why can't they in the Apple world?
So what you'd have.
Apple Office/Corel Office
* Word Perfect (word processing)
* Quattro (spreadsheet)
? Keynote (Presentations)
* mail.app (email)
*FileMaker Pro (Database) (optional...)
all for $299.00