<strong>Not better, perhaps, but probably more desireable. I'm sure having a friend or family member with Office/Photoshop/QuickBooks et al has influenced many a PC-buying decision.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Probably true. I guess I just appreciate the software enough to actually pay for it. I am probably in the (ever-shrinking) part of the population that still buys CDs, DVDs, software, etc. But, again, this is my perception. Mileage may very I suppose...
Add up the iapps, 'X', ease of use, the design, ease of access (in the towers...), .Mac and how the Mac runs Photoshop (it's not only the speed...there's something spiritually different about it on the Mac, heh...) and he's got a point.
However, the G4 is ageing. It's behind. If it wasn't, Apple wouldn't have to offer two for one (end of seaons sale...! Whoot!) And in general, those one probably don't stand a chance against a 3 gig Pentium 4? But two? Maybe a little...
Well. IF you take 50% speed gains off the 2nd G4 and add it to the first. 1.8-9 gig? Add in the Risc vs Cisc factor. Add another 20%. Probably a 2.2 gig Wintel performer. Take the inefficient P4 and knock off .5 gig for inefficiency (the P4 1.3-1.4 didn't perform as well as a P3 at one gig remember...) and they probably meet near the middle. Well, this is how I see the comparison in my own mind. Non-technical viewpoint
Cheap x86 towers with 2.4 gig processors? Well, people seem to be buying them... Though 1.6 gig seems to be all the 'general' speed I need at the moment... I think Apple need to pick up customers like that. Especially if they are want to crack the 'critical mass' nut... How they do it? Lifestyle product. A great looking mini-tower or iCube. The 'fat'carb eMac doesn't seem to be it...
What is clear is that one G4 clearly isn't cutting it. But does well all things considered.
Doesn't seem to matter. The critics love the iMac flat screen. The Powerbook looks a stunner at 1 gig and a Superdrive.
Apple are behind. But not that much so that you'd notice greatly. They'll survive until the 970 or whatever else comes out. Their products offer a difference, lifestyle, quality or mere rebellion against M$. They'll go far on this alone. They don't have to be the mhz kings. But the performance and price need to be addressed a little more.
They've started addressing that with the ibook and powerbooks. The desktops are seriously sagging. They need a performance boost and a price hack.
Just over six months until the intro' of the Apple 970 Tower? I can wait that long... Dual 1.8? Well, if the 970 is twice the speed of the G4 on CPU speed alone...then our 'XP' style rating would be dual 3.6. Add in the 20% risc vs cisc factor...and you've got a dual 4.3 x86 equivalent? Enough to head off any Intel 3.6 or 4 Gigger. And the 970 seems built for multiprocessing in contrast to the pentium 4. The 'hyper threading' doesn't seem to add that much of a processing punch. Maybe Intel are aiming for a Pentium 5 to counter the Clawhammer?
Welllll, since the last time I posted at 'insider, the 970 now ONLY 'appears' (stress, 'appears') half a year-ish a way.
I don't see any reason not to be very optimistic!
1.8 gig doesn't sound alot this time next year compared to a 3.6 gig Pentium 4. However, when IBM are saying twice the cpu computation at equal mhz to the G4..? That's like having a 3.6 gig G4. Not bad. My eyes light up. At last, 'elegance' coupled with 'brute force'. Sounds like the cpu Apple fans get to have their cake and eat it. This gives the 970 a 3.6 'Xp' rating! Add in the risc factor. Add in the superior multiprocessing...add in the altivec on a much larger bus...better memory...
I'm no fan of the G4 being in 'power'Macs these days...but the advantages of PPC appear to be coming home with 970. Any calls to x86 transitions at this stage of the game are somewhat premature... Though a 'Hammer' strategy may fit in somewhere in the larger scheme of things...
There's many instances where I still feel part of the Matsu fan club when it comes to specific issues. Price. Bang for buck. G4 being somewhat 'still born'. However, you've got to hand it Apple re: the laptops. ibook on price, PBook on features...etc.
2003, at least 2nd half, could be the year for Apple's desktops to come home. As the .13 die shrink G4 leaves the 'power'Macs and transitions to the consumer end of things.
As Moki himself has hinted, Apple watchers will probably have much to cheer come the next Summer.
A <a href="http://www.vonnegut.com/"; target="_blank">pretty important American writer</a>. Breakfast of Champions, Slaughterhouse 5, Cats Cradle, etc...best known for his pesimistic attitudes. Get the connection?
A pretty important American writer. Breakfast of Champions, Slaughterhouse 5, Cats Cradle, etc...best known for his pesimistic attitudes. Get the connection?
<strong>Yes I know it's a bit silly to ask when an unreleased product will be upgraded, but I'd like to hear some guesses on when IBM will move to .09.
Is there much cost involved in moving from .13 to .09? Could IBM save costs by leapfrogging .13 and going directly to .09?</strong><hr></blockquote>
from what I have read of IBM's press releases as well as off of the news and rumour sites, I would imagine that they will move to 0.09 by the end of 03.
<strong>Yes I know it's a bit silly to ask when an unreleased product will be upgraded, but I'd like to hear some guesses on when IBM will move to .09.
Is there much cost involved in moving from .13 to .09? Could IBM save costs by leapfrogging .13 and going directly to .09?</strong><hr></blockquote>
from what I have read of IBM's press releases as well as off of the news and rumour sites, I would imagine that they will move to 0.09 by the end of 03.
do you all think that there is a high possibility that apple will offer the PowerMacs all Dual (as today) when the 970 arrives? or will they offer the smalest PowerMac as single 970?
i doubt they will be all dual. This is the first time that all Powermacs are dual, and that is because Apple knows that they are lacking in speed. There will be dual 970s, but probably not on the low end.
Ok, got this little tidbit (probably B.S.) from the Yahoo AAPL message board. Take it with your usual grain of salt...
---------------------
1.4 GHz Mac coming early next year
by: Don_Carlos_CA (M/San Carlos, CA)
12/10/02 01:05 pm
Msg: 259495 of 259556
My reply:
<Motorola is reading a new PowerPC proc.
Also a new generation of processors coming next year, breaking 2 GHz. >
When next year? and where did you get this info from?
His reply:
"Let's just say I got some info from their vendor.
1.4 is coming in January and next gen (G5) might be ready for Q3 (more likely in Q4). They always try to meet the MacWorld dates (Jan, Aug) to introduce new products."
[quote] do you all think that there is a high possibility that apple will offer the PowerMacs all Dual (as today) when the 970 arrives? or will they offer the smalest PowerMac as single 970? <hr></blockquote>
I'm hoping that Apple takes the opportunity with the 970 to diviersify their pro line a bit. I'm in the camp that believes that when the Cube was axed, it left a gaping hole in Apple's line up. Here's what I hope Apple's pro line-up looks like in a year:
Single proc machines w/ 1 AGP & 1 PCI, 1.2GHz up to 1.8GHz. $999 - $1799. (NOT like the cube-- power supply integrated into the case, please.)
Dual proc machines in the current PM form, w/ 1 AGP & 1 PCI, again 2x1.2GHz up to 2x1.8. Same prices as current machines.
Here's the twist. Since the 970's bus is probably going to make multi-proc machines easy and viable, it would be cool if there were a new line of machines on top-- quad proc machines w/ 3GIO or PCI-X, dual AGP (if it's possible by that time), at 4x1.5GHz & 4x1.8GHz. Prices ranging from $4k - $8k.
<strong>Ok, got this little tidbit (probably B.S.) from the Yahoo AAPL message board. Take it with your usual grain of salt...
---------------------
1.4 GHz Mac coming early next year
by: Don_Carlos_CA (M/San Carlos, CA)
12/10/02 01:05 pm
Msg: 259495 of 259556
My reply:
<Motorola is reading a new PowerPC proc.
Also a new generation of processors coming next year, breaking 2 GHz. >
When next year? and where did you get this info from?
His reply:
"Let's just say I got some info from their vendor.
1.4 is coming in January and next gen (G5) might be ready for Q3 (more likely in Q4). They always try to meet the MacWorld dates (Jan, Aug) to introduce new products."
I'll have to see if I can get some details...
Chas</strong><hr></blockquote>
as always: which Q3 is meant ? i hope the financial Q3 which starts araound april i think?
I like Gamblor's idea. Seeing that Apple needs to design some new motherboards for the 970 anyway, they should go for designing 2 of them. One lower end with a single processor and one higher end with dual. They can spread out the price range.
<strong>I like Gamblor's idea. Seeing that Apple needs to design some new motherboards for the 970 anyway, they should go for designing 2 of them. One lower end with a single processor and one higher end with dual. They can spread out the price range.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Appl they need is one mother board design and a single and dual daughter card. They could also have some of the mother boards build with fewer PCI slots and or memory slots and essentialy keep the same design. This way they arnt spending the R&D money duplicating efforts as they did in the Performa days.
A absolutly critical part of the 970 is the price as this determine what options there is for a given price point.
A 3GHz P4 is 700 dollars over the counter. A 2.4GHz P4 is only 200 dollar and a 2GHz celeron is 90 dollars.
So for a SMP evironment a CPU investment 700/800/720 dollars would give you either one threaded 3GHz or two 2.4 GHz CPUs alternatively eight slower 2GHz CPUs.
This is a simplied model ignoring complexity in motherboard, demands of cooling, powersupply etc. However, it shows that if Apple can get the 970 at a god price they can get stellar performance at a resonable price by adding CPUs.
It would not surprice me to see a quad tower a year from now. The market for such a box would be small but for Apple to have the bragging rights of the fastest computer in video editing etc would do more to end the dark G4 period than thosands of rigged PhotoShop tests. A quad tower were just the CPUs would draw close to 200 W will be big, hot and expensive but for that market they would not care!
As long as as the Wintel market is a singel CPU market Apple can compete by using several CPUs. I do not care if a [email protected] is slower than a [email protected]. If the price and heat of two 970 is equal or less to one P4 the important thing is if two 970 can beat one P4. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
And by beating I do not mean DNA BLASTing or RC-64 code cracking but more mundane stuff like video compressing, mp3 coding and framerates in DOOM 3. The original DOOM got a lot of people getting a 486 that they really did not need for much else it would be sweet if DOOM 3 would do the same for the 970 <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
Comments
<strong>Not better, perhaps, but probably more desireable. I'm sure having a friend or family member with Office/Photoshop/QuickBooks et al has influenced many a PC-buying decision.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Probably true. I guess I just appreciate the software enough to actually pay for it. I am probably in the (ever-shrinking) part of the population that still buys CDs, DVDs, software, etc. But, again, this is my perception. Mileage may very I suppose...
Add up the iapps, 'X', ease of use, the design, ease of access (in the towers...), .Mac and how the Mac runs Photoshop (it's not only the speed...there's something spiritually different about it on the Mac, heh...) and he's got a point.
However, the G4 is ageing. It's behind. If it wasn't, Apple wouldn't have to offer two for one (end of seaons sale...! Whoot!) And in general, those one probably don't stand a chance against a 3 gig Pentium 4? But two? Maybe a little...
Well. IF you take 50% speed gains off the 2nd G4 and add it to the first. 1.8-9 gig? Add in the Risc vs Cisc factor. Add another 20%. Probably a 2.2 gig Wintel performer. Take the inefficient P4 and knock off .5 gig for inefficiency (the P4 1.3-1.4 didn't perform as well as a P3 at one gig remember...) and they probably meet near the middle. Well, this is how I see the comparison in my own mind. Non-technical viewpoint
Cheap x86 towers with 2.4 gig processors? Well, people seem to be buying them... Though 1.6 gig seems to be all the 'general' speed I need at the moment... I think Apple need to pick up customers like that. Especially if they are want to crack the 'critical mass' nut... How they do it? Lifestyle product. A great looking mini-tower or iCube. The 'fat'carb eMac doesn't seem to be it...
What is clear is that one G4 clearly isn't cutting it. But does well all things considered.
Doesn't seem to matter. The critics love the iMac flat screen. The Powerbook looks a stunner at 1 gig and a Superdrive.
Apple are behind. But not that much so that you'd notice greatly. They'll survive until the 970 or whatever else comes out. Their products offer a difference, lifestyle, quality or mere rebellion against M$. They'll go far on this alone. They don't have to be the mhz kings. But the performance and price need to be addressed a little more.
They've started addressing that with the ibook and powerbooks. The desktops are seriously sagging. They need a performance boost and a price hack.
Just over six months until the intro' of the Apple 970 Tower? I can wait that long... Dual 1.8? Well, if the 970 is twice the speed of the G4 on CPU speed alone...then our 'XP' style rating would be dual 3.6. Add in the 20% risc vs cisc factor...and you've got a dual 4.3 x86 equivalent? Enough to head off any Intel 3.6 or 4 Gigger. And the 970 seems built for multiprocessing in contrast to the pentium 4. The 'hyper threading' doesn't seem to add that much of a processing punch. Maybe Intel are aiming for a Pentium 5 to counter the Clawhammer?
Lemon Bon Bon
[ 12-09-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]
[ 12-09-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]
[ 12-09-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
Doesn't sound like you <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Welllll, since the last time I posted at 'insider, the 970 now ONLY 'appears' (stress, 'appears') half a year-ish a way.
I don't see any reason not to be very optimistic!
1.8 gig doesn't sound alot this time next year compared to a 3.6 gig Pentium 4. However, when IBM are saying twice the cpu computation at equal mhz to the G4..? That's like having a 3.6 gig G4. Not bad. My eyes light up. At last, 'elegance' coupled with 'brute force'. Sounds like the cpu Apple fans get to have their cake and eat it. This gives the 970 a 3.6 'Xp' rating! Add in the risc factor. Add in the superior multiprocessing...add in the altivec on a much larger bus...better memory...
I'm no fan of the G4 being in 'power'Macs these days...but the advantages of PPC appear to be coming home with 970. Any calls to x86 transitions at this stage of the game are somewhat premature... Though a 'Hammer' strategy may fit in somewhere in the larger scheme of things...
There's many instances where I still feel part of the Matsu fan club when it comes to specific issues. Price. Bang for buck. G4 being somewhat 'still born'. However, you've got to hand it Apple re: the laptops. ibook on price, PBook on features...etc.
2003, at least 2nd half, could be the year for Apple's desktops to come home. As the .13 die shrink G4 leaves the 'power'Macs and transitions to the consumer end of things.
As Moki himself has hinted, Apple watchers will probably have much to cheer come the next Summer.
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>I don't see any reason not to be very optimistic!</strong><hr></blockquote>
From the Kurt Vonnegut of AI, that is an incredible statement :eek:
...er, who's 'Kurt Vonnegut'?
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>...er, who's 'Kurt Vonnegut'?</strong><hr></blockquote>
A <a href="http://www.vonnegut.com/"; target="_blank">pretty important American writer</a>. Breakfast of Champions, Slaughterhouse 5, Cats Cradle, etc...best known for his pesimistic attitudes. Get the connection?
[ 12-09-2002: Message edited by: Rhumgod ]</p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon:
...er, who's 'Kurt Vonnegut'?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A pretty important American writer. Breakfast of Champions, Slaughterhouse 5, Cats Cradle, etc...best known for his pesimistic attitudes. Get the connection?
[ 12-09-2002: Message edited by: Rhumgod"
Cheers.
Lemon Bon Bon
Is there much cost involved in moving from .13 to .09? Could IBM save costs by leapfrogging .13 and going directly to .09?
<strong>Yes I know it's a bit silly to ask when an unreleased product will be upgraded, but I'd like to hear some guesses on when IBM will move to .09.
Is there much cost involved in moving from .13 to .09? Could IBM save costs by leapfrogging .13 and going directly to .09?</strong><hr></blockquote>
from what I have read of IBM's press releases as well as off of the news and rumour sites, I would imagine that they will move to 0.09 by the end of 03.
<strong>Yes I know it's a bit silly to ask when an unreleased product will be upgraded, but I'd like to hear some guesses on when IBM will move to .09.
Is there much cost involved in moving from .13 to .09? Could IBM save costs by leapfrogging .13 and going directly to .09?</strong><hr></blockquote>
from what I have read of IBM's press releases as well as off of the news and rumour sites, I would imagine that they will move to 0.09 by the end of 03.
[ 12-10-2002: Message edited by: Krassy ]</p>
---------------------
1.4 GHz Mac coming early next year
by: Don_Carlos_CA (M/San Carlos, CA)
12/10/02 01:05 pm
Msg: 259495 of 259556
My reply:
<Motorola is reading a new PowerPC proc.
Also a new generation of processors coming next year, breaking 2 GHz. >
When next year? and where did you get this info from?
His reply:
"Let's just say I got some info from their vendor.
1.4 is coming in January and next gen (G5) might be ready for Q3 (more likely in Q4). They always try to meet the MacWorld dates (Jan, Aug) to introduce new products."
I'll have to see if I can get some details...
Chas
I'm hoping that Apple takes the opportunity with the 970 to diviersify their pro line a bit. I'm in the camp that believes that when the Cube was axed, it left a gaping hole in Apple's line up. Here's what I hope Apple's pro line-up looks like in a year:
Single proc machines w/ 1 AGP & 1 PCI, 1.2GHz up to 1.8GHz. $999 - $1799. (NOT like the cube-- power supply integrated into the case, please.)
Dual proc machines in the current PM form, w/ 1 AGP & 1 PCI, again 2x1.2GHz up to 2x1.8. Same prices as current machines.
Here's the twist. Since the 970's bus is probably going to make multi-proc machines easy and viable, it would be cool if there were a new line of machines on top-- quad proc machines w/ 3GIO or PCI-X, dual AGP (if it's possible by that time), at 4x1.5GHz & 4x1.8GHz. Prices ranging from $4k - $8k.
<strong>Ok, got this little tidbit (probably B.S.) from the Yahoo AAPL message board. Take it with your usual grain of salt...
---------------------
1.4 GHz Mac coming early next year
by: Don_Carlos_CA (M/San Carlos, CA)
12/10/02 01:05 pm
Msg: 259495 of 259556
My reply:
<Motorola is reading a new PowerPC proc.
Also a new generation of processors coming next year, breaking 2 GHz. >
When next year? and where did you get this info from?
His reply:
"Let's just say I got some info from their vendor.
1.4 is coming in January and next gen (G5) might be ready for Q3 (more likely in Q4). They always try to meet the MacWorld dates (Jan, Aug) to introduce new products."
I'll have to see if I can get some details...
Chas</strong><hr></blockquote>
as always: which Q3 is meant ? i hope the financial Q3 which starts araound april i think?
<strong>I like Gamblor's idea. Seeing that Apple needs to design some new motherboards for the 970 anyway, they should go for designing 2 of them. One lower end with a single processor and one higher end with dual. They can spread out the price range.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Appl they need is one mother board design and a single and dual daughter card. They could also have some of the mother boards build with fewer PCI slots and or memory slots and essentialy keep the same design. This way they arnt spending the R&D money duplicating efforts as they did in the Performa days.
A absolutly critical part of the 970 is the price as this determine what options there is for a given price point.
A 3GHz P4 is 700 dollars over the counter. A 2.4GHz P4 is only 200 dollar and a 2GHz celeron is 90 dollars.
So for a SMP evironment a CPU investment 700/800/720 dollars would give you either one threaded 3GHz or two 2.4 GHz CPUs alternatively eight slower 2GHz CPUs.
This is a simplied model ignoring complexity in motherboard, demands of cooling, powersupply etc. However, it shows that if Apple can get the 970 at a god price they can get stellar performance at a resonable price by adding CPUs.
It would not surprice me to see a quad tower a year from now. The market for such a box would be small but for Apple to have the bragging rights of the fastest computer in video editing etc would do more to end the dark G4 period than thosands of rigged PhotoShop tests. A quad tower were just the CPUs would draw close to 200 W will be big, hot and expensive but for that market they would not care!
As long as as the Wintel market is a singel CPU market Apple can compete by using several CPUs. I do not care if a [email protected] is slower than a [email protected]. If the price and heat of two 970 is equal or less to one P4 the important thing is if two 970 can beat one P4. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
And by beating I do not mean DNA BLASTing or RC-64 code cracking but more mundane stuff like video compressing, mp3 coding and framerates in DOOM 3. The original DOOM got a lot of people getting a 486 that they really did not need for much else it would be sweet if DOOM 3 would do the same for the 970 <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
<strong>Cheers.
Lemon Bon Bon
Ting.