The Apple displays are not selling very well at all. They are selling at the bear minimum excpetable level. Apple will probably give the displays a very large price drop soon.
Unfortunately I think that Apple views its monitors as a luxuary. People who can afford them will buy them, but those who can't will have to buy some third-party monitor. Sadly, I doubt we'll ever see 'competitive' pricing on Apple-branded monitors.
Right around the time Apple's 17" LCD was announced as $999, my boss told me to order him an IBM 17" LCD for $1270 direct from IBM. I told him "but you can get a Viewsonic or something for not much more than half that," and he said, "I want a black one that says IBM on it."
People WILL pay more for the right brand, though I do think Apple's LCDs need to be closer to the price of good quality brands like Samsung, Viewsonic, Princeton, etc. To me, if a Samsung 17" is $750 then Apple's should be no more than $850, and when Samsung's is $550 (which is not far off) then Apple's should be $599 or so. People will pay SOMETHING more, but not double, to get an Apple brand LCD.
I don't think, though, they should be expected to compete with some of the generic crap I've seen at CompUSA and Fry's.
Look, even the majority of Apple employees IN CUPERTINO don't even know what is about to be unveiled by Steve. There is no way an Apple-based Comp USA employee is going to know. These are people who simply love the Mac and are very knowledgable and have been hired by Apple. It's not like the engineers from Cupertino come out on the weekends and picth in at Comp USA.
27 inch widescreen would be nutty, I don't think I'm ready for that
My friend(totally anti-mac, 100% closeminded when it comes to computers...etc)
was playing with the iPod and looking at the apple displays at frys, and he came back saying "the iPod is AMAZING!, and Apples displays are soooo friggin cool"
then I said "yea apple is way ahead of the pack when it comes to displays, they hit millions of colors way before consumer pc world" and he instantly said "I don't know about that, there is good pc stuff too"
I say "not really"
and then he changed the subject, cuz he realized I was right
this happens ALOT with this guy, he's a smart guy, but he's not very computer savvy(which is funny cause his whole family is VERY digital)
I would love a 19 inch LCD display, especially if it was 1000 bucks! wow! :eek:
[quote] Look, even the majority of Apple employees IN CUPERTINO don't even know what is about to be unveiled by Steve.
<hr></blockquote>
Well, many Apple employees do have SOME idea. There is a need to share information; since software has to be tested on new machines. And bugs that occur only on new machines have to be looked at by the various teams here. But you are quite correct in that few know what exactly will be unveiled.
But no Apple employee (myself included) would leak information. On every employee's first day at Apple, it's made quite clear that we are not to talk about Apple stuff to ANYONE outside Apple (or outside our team unless we're sure that they are supposed to know). I think they said that the anticipation surrounding Steve Jobs' keynotes have an intangible value of $30 million. Leaks lessen the anticipation, and hurt Apple.
As far as CompUSA or Apple retail employees having insider info. Trust me, they don't. Information is available only a need to know basis here; and they do not need to know.
<strong>I think they said that the anticipation surrounding Steve Jobs' keynotes have an intangible value of $30 million.</strong><hr></blockquote>You mean NEGATIVE $30 million, don't you?
Lack of leaks hurts Apple. People put off their purchases until the keynote, and then when the G5 [new iMac, 1Ghz G4, etc. etc.] doesn't show, they still don't buy.
I've never seen a keynote that people were excited about afterwards. We're always disappointed. And that's due to the lack of leaks, which cause people to dump all their unrealistic hopes into the keynote.
The only reason there are no leaks is because of Steve's ego.
But from 867 to anything close to 1.5 Ghz is at least a 60% increase. That for any processer in six months is good. That for the G4 is insane. (remeber, this is the same company that was stuck at 500 Mhz for a year and a half)
But from 867 to anything close to 1.5 Ghz is at least a 60% increase. That for any processer in six months is good. That for the G4 is insane. (remeber, this is the same company that was stuck at 500 Mhz for a year and a half)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Incremental improvements to the process or design (chip revisions) could easily push the 7450 to 1 GHz without SOI - some people have clocked their 867 MHz machines that far already. Remember that while Intel and AMD constantly update their chips we only see faster PPC processors when Apple ships an updated box.
Anyway, add SOI and with a little luck I can see them hitting 1.4 GHz on the 7450+ (7460?). I think they'd need to increase the bus speed to get there though, but hopefully that's all part of the new design since the 7450 boxes apparently have pretty woeful memory bandwidth.
[quote] Lack of leaks hurts Apple. People put off their purchases until the keynote, and then when the G5 [new iMac, 1Ghz G4, etc. etc.] doesn't show, they still don't buy.
<hr></blockquote>
The $30 million figure was meant from a marketing standpoint. The coverage that Apple gets in newspapers and in online publications is worth around $30 million in terms of "free advertising". Of course, sales are an issue as well, as you point out.
What would happen if a drunken Apple employee after a beer bash stumbled back to his desk and e-mailed all of Apple's plans for the next year to MacOSRumors or AppleInsider? You wouldn't have the anticipation, or the press coverage around MWSF, MWT, MWNY. You'd have empty auditoriums because nobody would want to watch the keynote. Perhaps MacWorld attendance would suffer; because surely some people just show up to check out whatever Apple will release. Nothing good can come from leaks.
[quote] Put that in your pipeline and stall it.
<hr></blockquote>
Hmm...I'm hardly responsible for Apple's PR and/or marketing policies; being in their Software Engineering organization.
<strong>Hmm...I'm hardly responsible for Apple's PR and/or marketing policies; being in their Software Engineering organization. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh so are YOU the person who keeps sticking in that nasty 'debug code' I keep reading about?!?! Heck it took you till Mac OS X 10.1 before you remembered to remove it...
[quote] What would happen if a drunken Apple employee after a beer bash stumbled back to his desk and e-mailed all of Apple's plans for the next year to MacOSRumors or AppleInsider? You wouldn't have the anticipation, or the press coverage around MWSF, MWT, MWNY. You'd have empty auditoriums because nobody would want to watch the keynote. Perhaps MacWorld attendance would suffer; because surely some people just show up to check out whatever Apple will release. Nothing good can come from leaks <hr></blockquote>
I'll tell you one thing. If it was stated tomorrow from Steve Jobs that MWSF would have 1.6ghz G5's with $2000 Cinema Display, I for one would buy scalped front room seats for that keynote.
[add- I think what hurts Apple is no leaks and built up speculation from both users and the media. And when TechTV says "nothing new from Apple, nothing exciting, not what we were expecting, I give Apple a 'D' ", that hurts Apple.]
I'm also an Apple employee (retail) and, believe me, we don't know SHIT! I think its funny how everyone assumes since we work for Apple we know everything that's going to happen. Apple store employees (including CompUSA ppl) come into contact with WAY too many end users for it to be an acceptable risk for us to know that kinda stuff.
Scene - MacWorld NY 2000, right after the keynote (introduction of the cube)
Me (speaking to Apple Rep): wow these cubes sure are cool, so how long did you guys know about this?
Apple Rep: we found out this morning right before the keynote.
Me: So all your info is from today, you had no knowledge of this before?
Apple Rep: Nope, I probably know as much about this cube as you do.
Me: So you have to stand here all day and answer questions about a product you just saw for the first time a few hours ago?
Apple Rep: You got it.
He was also holding a "cheat sheet". Looked like one of those tiny brochures you can pick up at CompUSA, except it had "ATI Radeon" scratched out!! haha
[quote]I'll tell you one thing. If it was stated tomorrow from Steve Jobs that MWSF would have 1.6ghz G5's with $2000 Cinema Display, I for one would buy scalped front room seats for that keynote. <hr></blockquote>
As far as the Cinema Displays go, Apple employees can get ONE for $1874. You can get up to 6 for $1999 on QPromo. Just find a friend who works at Apple and you're set.
Seriously, if you were in the market for a new PowerMac, and you knew that one that was twice as fast was two weeks away; you wouldn't buy. Now Apple has extra inventory in the channel, which they have to sell at a discount later. They lose money.
[quote]
[add- I think what hurts Apple is no leaks and built up speculation from both users and the media. And when TechTV says "nothing new from Apple, nothing exciting, not what we were expecting, I give Apple a 'D' ", that hurts Apple.]
<hr></blockquote>
There are advantages and disadvantages about being secretive. One disadvantage, is that people have a tendency to work up expectations that cannot be reasonably met. With some information as to future products, people's expectations could be tempered; and buying decisions more informed.
But of course, you then have everyone saying; "I'll just wait until MWNY." "I'll just wait until MWSF" - perpetually waiting for the next upgrade; while plugging away on their LC 475. Believe me, I should know. I had a 6100-60 until recently (I bought a single processor G4 533 in February). When my 6100 started feeling slow, I thought I'd wait until 604e based machines became affordable. Then I was going to wait for the G3s to be released. Then for the iMac to be released. But I didn't like the iMac, so I waited for new PowerMacs with better cases (the B & W G3s). But then G4 rumors surfaced so I waited for those. I did the "hold off until the next Expo" routine for over four years! In the meantime, I was feeling the pain of my 6100 not being able to use a web browser (quickly), or run Mac OS X Public Beta.
Comments
A display is a commodity. There's not much you can do to it to sell a 100% higher price to a consumer.
The fact is I can get a great 17" LCD here in TO for $869CDN. The 17" Apple display is $1549CDN..
ALMOST 2X AS MUCH!!! Jump in a lake Apple
WOW! 4000 bucks is CHEAP for this size!
People WILL pay more for the right brand, though I do think Apple's LCDs need to be closer to the price of good quality brands like Samsung, Viewsonic, Princeton, etc. To me, if a Samsung 17" is $750 then Apple's should be no more than $850, and when Samsung's is $550 (which is not far off) then Apple's should be $599 or so. People will pay SOMETHING more, but not double, to get an Apple brand LCD.
I don't think, though, they should be expected to compete with some of the generic crap I've seen at CompUSA and Fry's.
I think your source knows just as much as we do.
My friend(totally anti-mac, 100% closeminded when it comes to computers...etc)
was playing with the iPod and looking at the apple displays at frys, and he came back saying "the iPod is AMAZING!, and Apples displays are soooo friggin cool"
then I said "yea apple is way ahead of the pack when it comes to displays, they hit millions of colors way before consumer pc world" and he instantly said "I don't know about that, there is good pc stuff too"
I say "not really"
and then he changed the subject, cuz he realized I was right
this happens ALOT with this guy, he's a smart guy, but he's not very computer savvy(which is funny cause his whole family is VERY digital)
I would love a 19 inch LCD display, especially if it was 1000 bucks! wow! :eek:
but I'd assume it would be 1200 or so. hrmmm
<hr></blockquote>
Well, many Apple employees do have SOME idea. There is a need to share information; since software has to be tested on new machines. And bugs that occur only on new machines have to be looked at by the various teams here. But you are quite correct in that few know what exactly will be unveiled.
But no Apple employee (myself included) would leak information. On every employee's first day at Apple, it's made quite clear that we are not to talk about Apple stuff to ANYONE outside Apple (or outside our team unless we're sure that they are supposed to know). I think they said that the anticipation surrounding Steve Jobs' keynotes have an intangible value of $30 million. Leaks lessen the anticipation, and hurt Apple.
As far as CompUSA or Apple retail employees having insider info. Trust me, they don't. Information is available only a need to know basis here; and they do not need to know.
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: PipelineStall ]</p>
Just asking,
current high end = 867
0.13µ adds what ?
SOI adds 20 - 30% speed
0.13µ then adds ? X 867 = ??
SOI then adds.30 X ?? = ???
867 + ?? + ??? = ????
If going to 0.13µ die adds 40% then ????= 1.577
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: rickag ]</p>
<strong>I think they said that the anticipation surrounding Steve Jobs' keynotes have an intangible value of $30 million.</strong><hr></blockquote>You mean NEGATIVE $30 million, don't you?
Lack of leaks hurts Apple. People put off their purchases until the keynote, and then when the G5 [new iMac, 1Ghz G4, etc. etc.] doesn't show, they still don't buy.
I've never seen a keynote that people were excited about afterwards. We're always disappointed. And that's due to the lack of leaks, which cause people to dump all their unrealistic hopes into the keynote.
The only reason there are no leaks is because of Steve's ego.
Put that in your pipeline and stall it.
I think it might increase speed 20 - 30%.
I could even increase clockspeed 20-30%.
But from 867 to anything close to 1.5 Ghz is at least a 60% increase. That for any processer in six months is good. That for the G4 is insane. (remeber, this is the same company that was stuck at 500 Mhz for a year and a half)
<strong>
I think it might increase speed 20 - 30%.
I could even increase clockspeed 20-30%.
But from 867 to anything close to 1.5 Ghz is at least a 60% increase. That for any processer in six months is good. That for the G4 is insane. (remeber, this is the same company that was stuck at 500 Mhz for a year and a half)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Incremental improvements to the process or design (chip revisions) could easily push the 7450 to 1 GHz without SOI - some people have clocked their 867 MHz machines that far already. Remember that while Intel and AMD constantly update their chips we only see faster PPC processors when Apple ships an updated box.
Anyway, add SOI and with a little luck I can see them hitting 1.4 GHz on the 7450+ (7460?). I think they'd need to increase the bus speed to get there though, but hopefully that's all part of the new design since the 7450 boxes apparently have pretty woeful memory bandwidth.
<hr></blockquote>
The $30 million figure was meant from a marketing standpoint. The coverage that Apple gets in newspapers and in online publications is worth around $30 million in terms of "free advertising". Of course, sales are an issue as well, as you point out.
What would happen if a drunken Apple employee after a beer bash stumbled back to his desk and e-mailed all of Apple's plans for the next year to MacOSRumors or AppleInsider? You wouldn't have the anticipation, or the press coverage around MWSF, MWT, MWNY. You'd have empty auditoriums because nobody would want to watch the keynote. Perhaps MacWorld attendance would suffer; because surely some people just show up to check out whatever Apple will release. Nothing good can come from leaks.
[quote] Put that in your pipeline and stall it.
<hr></blockquote>
Hmm...I'm hardly responsible for Apple's PR and/or marketing policies; being in their Software Engineering organization.
<strong>Hmm...I'm hardly responsible for Apple's PR and/or marketing policies; being in their Software Engineering organization.
Oh so are YOU the person who keeps sticking in that nasty 'debug code' I keep reading about?!?! Heck it took you till Mac OS X 10.1 before you remembered to remove it...
But since you did, Mac OS X sure does rock...
Dave
I'll tell you one thing. If it was stated tomorrow from Steve Jobs that MWSF would have 1.6ghz G5's with $2000 Cinema Display, I for one would buy scalped front room seats for that keynote.
[add- I think what hurts Apple is no leaks and built up speculation from both users and the media. And when TechTV says "nothing new from Apple, nothing exciting, not what we were expecting, I give Apple a 'D' ", that hurts Apple.]
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: KidRed ]</p>
Me (speaking to Apple Rep): wow these cubes sure are cool, so how long did you guys know about this?
Apple Rep: we found out this morning right before the keynote.
Me: So all your info is from today, you had no knowledge of this before?
Apple Rep: Nope, I probably know as much about this cube as you do.
Me: So you have to stand here all day and answer questions about a product you just saw for the first time a few hours ago?
Apple Rep: You got it.
He was also holding a "cheat sheet". Looked like one of those tiny brochures you can pick up at CompUSA, except it had "ATI Radeon" scratched out!! haha
As far as the Cinema Displays go, Apple employees can get ONE for $1874. You can get up to 6 for $1999 on QPromo. Just find a friend who works at Apple and you're set.
Seriously, if you were in the market for a new PowerMac, and you knew that one that was twice as fast was two weeks away; you wouldn't buy. Now Apple has extra inventory in the channel, which they have to sell at a discount later. They lose money.
[quote]
[add- I think what hurts Apple is no leaks and built up speculation from both users and the media. And when TechTV says "nothing new from Apple, nothing exciting, not what we were expecting, I give Apple a 'D' ", that hurts Apple.]
<hr></blockquote>
There are advantages and disadvantages about being secretive. One disadvantage, is that people have a tendency to work up expectations that cannot be reasonably met. With some information as to future products, people's expectations could be tempered; and buying decisions more informed.
But of course, you then have everyone saying; "I'll just wait until MWNY." "I'll just wait until MWSF" - perpetually waiting for the next upgrade; while plugging away on their LC 475. Believe me, I should know. I had a 6100-60 until recently (I bought a single processor G4 533 in February). When my 6100 started feeling slow, I thought I'd wait until 604e based machines became affordable. Then I was going to wait for the G3s to be released. Then for the iMac to be released. But I didn't like the iMac, so I waited for new PowerMacs with better cases (the B & W G3s). But then G4 rumors surfaced so I waited for those. I did the "hold off until the next Expo" routine for over four years! In the meantime, I was feeling the pain of my 6100 not being able to use a web browser (quickly), or run Mac OS X Public Beta.
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: PipelineStall ]</p>