The Key(board) to the New iMac G5

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 41
    charlesscharless Posts: 301member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Ensign Pulver

    If USB peripherals, FireWire devices and CD/DVD burning can all be accessed from the one form factor that must sit at your fingertips, then why not?



    1. Some users like to use a different keyboard - maybe an adjustable one, maybe one that they can *actually lay flat on the desk*, maybe some other specific need or desire.



    2. Some people (such as myself) have both a desktop and a laptop, and like to take the mouse and keyboard from the desktop along for use with the laptop. Having the desktop computer's guts in the keyboard would add extra bulk and weight, not to mention making the thing easier to damage while toting it around.



    3. Keyboards are fairly tough things... because they take the most abuse of any computer component. Bumps, coffee spills, angry fists (well, perhaps more so on the Windows platform ), toting around with laptops, you name it. Plus, lots of dirt, hair, and other gunk tends to build up inside them. I don't think it's so wise to put critical components in there.



    4. If you're going to include a CD/DVD burner, a USB 2 hub, a FireWire 2 hub, there's no way you're going to get enough power for that from the USB or FireWire bus. The thing is going to have to plug into the wall. Just another stupid plug for the user to have to worry about... :hmm:



    Not so great an idea, imo...
  • Reply 22 of 41
    applenutapplenut Posts: 5,768member
    Quote:

    No, VERY FEW markets and people use custom keyboards, especially the markets and people Apple has always targeted with the iMac line. You are applying enthusiast values to a consumer machine. Replacing the keyboard, especially a high quality, beautiful keyboard with unique features and capabilities would never even occur to 99% of iMac customers.



    you have no idea what you're talking about. this bullshit of labeling the iMac for dumbasses who don't use any additional peripherals, upgrade or know how to use a computer is the pinnacle of patheticness the mac community showcases.



    any keyboard shipped by apple in the last 7 years has had many deficiences in both features, ergonomics, and quality. being able to easily replace keyboards and swap keyboards is crucial in many settings, especially labs and education. or are those also not the market apple is targeting? keyboards fail....it's a fact of life. shit gets spilled on them. they get banged around, they are the easiest component to steal. let's add more value to them. they are also one of the most important ergonomic parts of the computer. people should have the option, as they always have, to use a more comfortable keyboard.



    Quote:

    Yeah, so? That's a very small amount of money in exchange for a breakthrough concept that allows a wall-mounted computer that actually makes ergonomic sense.



    quote:



    it is no where near a breakthrough concept. it's been done many times, over 20 years ago. it doesn't make ergonomic sense. and it would be lost revenue and you also lose the "breakthrough concept" of having a wallmounted computer with a wireless keyboard and mouse. or do you want that firewire cable running up to your wall.....cuz that's really elegant.



    Quote:

    It would be more than offset by the reduced incidents of repair for the main unit. Remember, the whole point of this idea is to reduce the complexity and heat in the "bodyless" iMac itself. Right now if the optical drive in your iMac breaks, you've got to take the whole thing in for repair. With the Keyboard Drive iMac you could simply plug in a standard USB keyboard and continue to use your machine while repairs are made.



    right now if you're keyboard breaks, you plug another one in and you still have full functionality. this argument is weak to say the least.



    Quote:

    Don't be a jerk. We have enough of those already.



    Apple has been know for very stupid ideas in the past (remember the hockey puck). Apple doesn't design their computers around the idea of upgrades.



    While I don't think it will happen, I won't put it past them.



    Quote:

    Didn't your parents teach you manners?



    can't take criticism? there's no reason i can't say i think it's a stupid idea.



    deal with it.
  • Reply 23 of 41
    Quote:

    [i] there's no reason i can't say i think it's a stupid idea.



    deal with it. [/B]



    It's rude. There's a reason.



    It seems your reaction to criticism speaks to your own inability to "take" it.



    Grow up, dude.
  • Reply 24 of 41
    applenutapplenut Posts: 5,768member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by rixter55

    It's rude. There's a reason.



    It seems your reaction to criticism speaks to your own inability to "take" it.



    Grow up, dude.




    i can take whatever you deal.



    now fix your quote.
  • Reply 25 of 41
    dglowdglow Posts: 147member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by glen

    I found the computer I was talking about. When I said 'the lot' I didn't mean the monitor as well, but this is what I saw all those years ago (and they're still making it).



    http://www.cybernetman.com/default.cfm/DocId/602.htm




    Ha! This strikes up memories of two computers from years gone by: the Apple IIc and Amiga 500 (which were responsible for many all-night sessions of MS Flight Sim and variouis Psygnosis shooters, respectively )





    Ensign Pulver, there are many aspects to your multi-function keyboard design that I like. Keeping the optical drive horizontal and easily accessible is such an obvious design 'must' IMHO, too. It's a nightmare to imagine Ives doing otherwise, and all information to the contrary seems like it must be disinformation from The Steve.



    That said, I just can't see the drive going into the keyboard. Why add all that weight to a component that some like to set on their lap? If the starting point for design of the new iMac is the current Cinema Displays, then perhaps the optical drive belongs in the bottom of that beautiful aluminum screen stand? (kenaustus suggested this earlier in the thread) Driveless edu models could get a stand without the drive.



    I guess this is touching on the theme of modularity. I've seen it again and again throughout the forums: Make the optical drive optional for schools and other institutions. Keep the the display optional for the switchers and anti-AIO crowd. Keep the GPU upgradable for the gamers and geeks. And in many ways I have to imagine this flexibility, if priced and 'incentivized' properly by Apple, could benefit them as well as their users.



    This brings up something that struck me while poking around a new Alu 23" at my local Apple dealer - something about the way the single umbilical cable attaches to the back of the screen. For those of you that haven't seen, here's what it looks like:







    Almost looks like a socket and plug of some sort, doesn't it? Well, that's what got me thinking...



    I know some of you might flip out for even daring to suggest this, but what if Apple actually introduced a new proprietary video/USB/Firewire/power connector specifically for the new iMacs?



    What?!? Insane, you suggest? Why would Apple do such a thing? Haven't we only now escaped the ADC Hell that has plagued Apple displays and graphics cards since 2000?



    Well, at this point I'm pulling a Rumsfeld in that I'm about to answer questions that I've posed to myself. Apologies in advance.



    What did the whole ADC arrangement accomplish for Apple?

    1 - It let Apple design displays that 'prefer' a paring with a Power Mac.

    2 - It allowed for clean, elegant cabling.

    3 - It lessened the cost of the displays (no power supply required).

    4 - It imposed a penalty on PowerBook users (ADC - DVI kit).

    5 - It helped Apple control the GPU/video card upgrade market for Power Macs.



    With the new Alu displays, 1 changes for the better (Mac & PC), 2 is still considered, though the solution is not as elegant, 3 is lost, since a PS is now required, 4 is no longer a problem (DVI native) and 5 is eliminated.



    Apple could introduce an iMac which used the exact display module as the Cinema Displays. If you venture over to this post at the site of these forums' evil twin brother, you'll see a mockup by pscates that demonstrates this. (while you're at it, check out his 'L' design on the following page)



    So lets say Apple does just this: an ADC-like custom connector between the new iMac and its corresponding displays. What does this accomplish?

    - Apple saves money by manufacturing a single set of display modules, whether intended for iMacs or standalone Cinema Displays.

    - iMac-specific display modules costs less than their Cinema counterparts because 1. no power supply or stand is included, and 2. you've already bought an iMac.

    - Apple gets flexibility WRT inventory: it's easy to reconfigure iMac CPUs with an inventory of display modules.

    - Users get flexibility with BTO display sizes and the potential for screen upgrades independent from the iMac CPU.

    - Users get protection for their display investment: a display module could be converted with the purchase a separate stand, power supply brick and breakout cable. 'Instant' Cinema Display.

    - If BTO GPUs were offered it could be via a daughtercard. This decouples the GPU from the custom connector.



    And last but not least: if Apple was feeling really generous, they could offer a breakout box that turns the custom umbilical connector into a jack for an external display. This would potentially satisfy the 'headless iMac' crowd, but still let Apple charge a bit extra for the privilege.



    Most importantly (for Apple), such a scheme would offer iMac buyers a lot of incentive to stick with Apple displays - especially if the breakout box described above was VGA-only. Apple would essentially be saying "if you want a fully digital LCD, you use one of ours."



    Well, those are my thoughts. I'm curious to hear yours. 8)
  • Reply 26 of 41
    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    you have no idea what you're talking about. this bullshit of labeling the iMac for dumbasses who don't use any additional peripherals, upgrade or know how to use a computer is the pinnacle of patheticness the mac community showcases.



    Doesn't mean it isn't true. For the past five years I have supported hundreds of Mac users in every possible setting and in that time I've seen maybe 2 third party keyboards. People don't swap them out and being "stuck" with the stock keyboard is a non-issue for 99% of users.

    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    any keyboard shipped by apple in the last 7 years has had many deficiences in both features, ergonomics, and quality.



    All the more reason to intro a state of the art KB with the new iMac. If it's top of the line and sturdier to handle the disc drive, then people won't object to it. (Not that they would do anything about it if they did.)

    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    being able to easily replace keyboards and swap keyboards is crucial in many settings, especially labs and education. or are those also not the market apple is targeting?



    Hello? Read my original post. One of the huge advantages of this design is its inexpensive accommodation of the EDU market. They would order it with a standard USB keyboard in the first place. TS says a driveless iMac G5 is on the way for these markets. Do you think Apple should go to the trouble and expense of a separate design for these customers?

    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    keyboards fail....it's a fact of life. shit gets spilled on them. they get banged around, they are the easiest component to steal. let's add more value to them. they are also one of the most important ergonomic parts of the computer. people should have the option, as they always have, to use a more comfortable keyboard.



    My proposed Keyboard Drive would have to be top notch anyway. It would be comfortable and sturdy and 99% of people would love it, and even if they didn't, they would never think of swapping it out anyway.

    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    it is no where near a breakthrough concept. it's been done many times, over 20 years ago. it doesn't make ergonomic sense. and it would be lost revenue and you also lose the "breakthrough concept" of having a wallmounted computer with a wireless keyboard and mouse. or do you want that firewire cable running up to your wall.....cuz that's really elegant.



    Do you want to walk up to your wall mounted computer, reach over your desk and try to get at the vertically oriented optical drive 5 feet off the ground? That's really elegant too.

    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    right now if you're keyboard breaks, you plug another one in and you still have full functionality. this argument is weak to say the least.



    This doesn't change. If the KB fails then you still replace with a standard one, but lose your CD drive for the time being. In a regular iMac if the CD drive fails, then you lose the whole machine.

    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    can't take criticism? there's no reason i can't say i think it's a stupid idea.



    deal with it.




    Hey applenut, I remember you as a decent guy with decent posts. When did you turn into a giant asshole?
  • Reply 27 of 41
    jerombajeromba Posts: 357member
    People people !



    Calm Down !!!



    For the idea to put some items like optical drive in the keyboard...

    I'm with Applenut on this one.



    But to put some items in the base of the screen it's a very cool idea !

    I'm looking now at the basae of my Aluminium 23" Cinema Display and my LaCie drives... and I can say that you could put an HD + an optical Drive in the base without any problem at all.

    So basically I can see an iMac v3 with the MB (G5 + GPU + a trap for easy access to Aiport and RAM upgrade ans some I/O port) on the back of the screen AND drives and I/O in the base.
  • Reply 28 of 41
    One of the things I find most compelling about this site is the degree of analysis and thoughtfulness inherent in many posts.



    This thread is an example of how divergent views can be presented, all within the backdrop of a better Apple or Mac experience.



    One of the things that would make the experience even more enjoyable, especially to a newbie like me, is to be able to partake without all of the distracting personal commentary.



    Anyone can have a bad day. When someone posts in a reactionary manner, it is totally understandable, even to a "back at ya" return. But when the whipsaw continues, it diminishes the effect and value of what each person has to offer.



    Personally, I find what Applenut and Ensign Pulver have to say with regard to the technical aspects of their discussion fascinating and very well thought out. Each shows a distinguished ability to put forth and illuminate differing viewpoints.



    However, while there is a definite yet subtle art to one-upsmanship, when that particular aspect is not done with as much outstanding skill as the parallel technical discussion, it leaves the entire thread a somewhat diminished experience that ultimately detracts from the Apple genre.



    I for one really appreciate the restraint and aplomb that seems to be continually shown on these forums, and the willingness of the community members to gently remind one another of the demeanor necessary to continue what is a very fine opportunity to uphold and advance the Apple faith.
  • Reply 29 of 41
    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    keyboards fail....it's a fact of life. shit gets spilled on them. they get banged around, they are the easiest component to steal. let's add more value to them. they are also one of the most important ergonomic parts of the computer. people should have the option, as they always have, to use a more comfortable keyboard.



    Applenut is right. There's no way any company with any sense would put a crucial piece of the computer in the keyboard, at least not in this day and age. And for whatever reason, the biggest reason would be cost - keyboards break constantly. They get dirty and grimy. Instead of being able to justgo buy another keyboard, you'd have to send the thing to Apple for repair, and in the meantime be without your media drive since it's in the keyboard! Once it got to Apple, it would of course cost them a lot to fix it. They have to cover they keyboard AS A PART of the computer, which is pretty ridiculous. As it is now, if your keyboard breaks, tough - go buy a new one. But if parts of the system were IN the keyboard, they're obliged to repair it.



    Also, it's just a silly idea. Personally, I haven't use an Apple keyboard in years, and no one I know uses one either. =)
  • Reply 30 of 41
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JtheLemur



    Also, it's just a silly idea. Personally, I haven't use an Apple keyboard in years, and no one I know uses one either. =)




    Especially with the current ones where the keys lean forward...



    If I had to guess, the new iMac will come with the current bluetooth keyboard. I think they want to be as wireless as possible with the iMac. That's just a guess.
  • Reply 31 of 41
    Quote:

    Originally posted by applenut

    i can take whatever you deal.



    now fix your quote.




    Man, you're such a baby



    I have to agree with you, though. The keyboard should be replaceable and should be only that. A keyboard. Adding tricks to that piece of hardware would be a mess. Breaks down and you also lose the optical drive. It seems like a bad idea.
  • Reply 32 of 41
    pbpb Posts: 4,233member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Paul

    what is more interesting is the color of the keyboard.



    If the iMac is going to be aluminum and chrome the only "white" product left is the iBook...



    the keyboard and mouse should be updated along with the iMac... why has there been no speculation on this until now?




    Paul is right. I too wonder why there is no speculation about new keyboard and mouse coming with the new iMac, especially the moment when radical changes in its appearance are rumored. I think the other products speculated for this Apple Expo might be exactly those, keyboard and/or mouse.
  • Reply 33 of 41
    Quote:

    This doesn't change. If the KB fails then you still replace with a standard one, but lose your CD drive for the time being. In a regular iMac if the CD drive fails, then you lose the whole machine.



    You could plug in an external optical drive too, if the CD were to fail. But what I don't like about the proposed design is you increase your chances of being without input devices AND drive if ONE of the two fails. They shouldn't be put together.



    You want to replace one and you're forced to replace two parts.
  • Reply 34 of 41
    Quote:

    Originally posted by PB

    Paul is right. I too wonder why there is no speculation about new keyboard and mouse coming with the new iMac, especially the moment when radical changes in its appearance are rumored. I think the other products speculated for this Apple Expo might be exactly those, keyboard and/or mouse.



    I think the iMac will be white again, and will use the same standard Apple mice and keyboards. If they really want to kick ass tho, they will include the wireless ones.
  • Reply 35 of 41
    pbpb Posts: 4,233member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by monkeyastronaut

    I think the iMac will be white again, and will use the same standard Apple mice and keyboards.



    However, if the iMac is going to be from aluminum or at least have such an appearance, it would make perfect sense to introduce at the same time new keyboard and mouse. It is more than one year from the G5 introduction and the current keyboard and mouse Apple offers don't match neither the Powerbook nor the Power Mac, and if the new iMac is not white, nor the iMac too.
  • Reply 36 of 41
    I'm lusting a metallic red iMac, however I'm well aware that may not happen.
  • Reply 37 of 41
    pbpb Posts: 4,233member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by monkeyastronaut

    I'm lusting a metallic red iMac...



    RED ?
  • Reply 38 of 41
    Alu keyboard. Sleek. Backlit even...







    I'd settle for alu.



    Apple II, Commodore 64 and Amiga. Legendary computers.



    Great computers with computer 'inside' the keyboard.



    It was all I knew when I grew up. The notion of a weird 'box'that contained all the computer bits seemed a step back to me at time when I saw PC tower.



    Now this seems like the 'norm' and anything other than headless seems strange.



    An alu sunflower. Fine.



    A box. Fine.



    A keyboard. AIO. Fine.



    As long as it doesn't look too much like a loo seat or toaster.



    What I'm after?



    G5 1.8-2.5.

    Graphics card 5200fx-Radeon 9600xt-Radeon 9800xt

    A great price.



    Diddly-dee.



    The design is a bonus. It should be the icing on the cake. Not masking defficiencies within the machine specs.



    Lemon Bon Bon
  • Reply 39 of 41
    so a 2-button mouse?



    i think new/matching keyboards and mice are almost a given, but it's hardly something to write home about, increase sales, or increase the stock price...
  • Reply 40 of 41
    neutrino23neutrino23 Posts: 1,525member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JtheLemur

    Applenut is right. There's no way any company with any sense would put a crucial piece of the computer in the keyboard, at least not in this day and age. And for whatever reason, the biggest reason would be cost - keyboards break constantly. They get dirty and grimy. Instead of being able to justgo buy another keyboard, you'd have to send the thing to Apple for repair, and in the meantime be without your media drive since it's in the keyboard! Once it got to Apple, it would of course cost them a lot to fix it. They have to cover they keyboard AS A PART of the computer, which is pretty ridiculous. As it is now, if your keyboard breaks, tough - go buy a new one. But if parts of the system were IN the keyboard, they're obliged to repair it.



    Also, it's just a silly idea. Personally, I haven't use an Apple keyboard in years, and no one I know uses one either. =)




    I don't see this as an issue. The keyboard could be designed to drop in like it does on the PowerBooks. If the keyboard goes bad you pop it out and put in another one.



    As to the drive itself, unless Apple went to great lengths to lock it in (like in the iBook) then it would not be hard to remove it and put it in an external case. If you bought an external keyboard you could either keep the old keyboard nearby for access to the drive or put it in an external case.



    I'm skeptical that Apple would put the drive in the keyboard, but I don't see any huge technical barriers. It is analogous to a laptop computer.



    It would be nice to have a FW drive built in to the keyboard. You can't get much more convenient than that. This would also allow the keyboard to be a FW hub as well as a USB hub. Now you could plug in your iPod to the keyboard without having to search for the FW connector.



    I also like Mr. Bon Bon's idea of backlit keyboard a la the Aluminum PowerBook. That would be cool.
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