The REAL "One more thing"....

24

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 62
    Quote:

    Originally posted by KeilwerthReborn

    "Will of Steve Jobs"? You do realize that Jobs originally wanted the Mac to ship with a three-button mouse, don't you?



    I only say this because an Apple rep ([email protected] if you're curious) came to my University to help integrate Macs with Active Directory recently, and I was able to have lunch with him along with a couple of other Mac techs. Among some of the things we talked about was the 1 button mouse. "Steve will not allow it to happen," was what he said in reference to why Apple doesn't make a 2 button mouse.
  • Reply 22 of 62
    What's a mouse? I use mental telepathy
  • Reply 23 of 62
    johnqjohnq Posts: 2,763member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by KeilwerthReborn

    "Will of Steve Jobs"? You do realize that Jobs originally wanted the Mac to ship with a three-button mouse, don't you?



    And that the NeXT workstation came with a 2 button opto-mechanical mouse. In 1987.
  • Reply 24 of 62
    one button.





    before reading this next part, place your hand idly on your mouse.



    but instead of the scroll wheel, an (possibly) iPod-like button surface where instead of dialing it like on the iPod, you simply apply a variable amount of pressure with either the top of your thumb or the knuckle, or by rolling your thumb upwards or downwards in a type of crevasse. it would be able to sustain regular, or idle, thumb pressure while activating at a certain threshold.



    aside from their functionality, traditional scroll wheels are terrible. it is the most awkward finger/hand movement ever.
  • Reply 25 of 62
    thats exactly what i was thinking. good way of putting it into a visual image and describing it. woot!
  • Reply 26 of 62
    Quote:

    Originally posted by iPoster

    ...Apple Comptuers will now ship with 2-button Apple style mice, similar to 'The Mouse'.



    Really, would that be too difficult, Steve? Wonder how many people have looked at a Mac and thought, darn, I have to buy a 3rd party mouse to get real use out of it, even after paying the 'Apple premium'??









    oh waa.... if i'm paying the apple premium, then i want dual dual-core processors, and 9GB of Ram, not 8. </sarcasm>



    sell your stupid one button mouse on ebay and just buy a third party one.



    remember: no one is forcing you to buy a macintosh, so stop whining about the smallest things.
  • Reply 27 of 62
    iposteriposter Posts: 1,560member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ipodandimac

    oh waa.... if i'm paying the apple premium, then i want dual dual-core processors, and 9GB of Ram, not 8. </sarcasm>



    sell your stupid one button mouse on ebay and just buy a third party one.



    remember: no one is forcing you to buy a macintosh, so stop whining about the smallest things.




    The first thing I did after ordering my Mac was buy a Logitech.

    I was just suggesting that the little things make a difference to potential switchers. I took my brother-in-law (lifetime PC user) to look at some Macs in person, he was utterly unimpressed with the mouse...
  • Reply 28 of 62
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by bborofka

    I only say this because an Apple rep ([email protected] if you're curious) came to my University to help integrate Macs with Active Directory recently, and I was able to have lunch with him along with a couple of other Mac techs. Among some of the things we talked about was the 1 button mouse. "Steve will not allow it to happen," was what he said in reference to why Apple doesn't make a 2 button mouse.



    It's not that flippant a decision, but instead grounded in solid usability studies... and not that one button is 'easier', but that one button forces developers to be *consistent*.



    By forcing developers to never be able to assume two buttons, they enforce the idea that everything should be *discoverable* by simply moving the cursor and single-clicking the one button. This is a major, primary, basic precept of usability.



    Developers are a lazy lot (I should know, I'm one of them), and we will always try and cut corners. It's human nature. If it isn't enforced, we simply won't do it. "Oh well, what the heck, I'll just throw it in a contextual menu..." Bzzzt. There be madness... and the Windows UI.



    Single button mice with every machine is the correct thing to do. It's better for the new user, for the casual user, and most importantly, keeps the developers in line, which makes everyone's user experience better.



    It's not just because Steve said so. Honest. That rep doesn't have a clue about UI design, obviously.
  • Reply 29 of 62
    dinodino Posts: 34member
    I want to ask something: Do the Apple mice cost that much to make, or are they just overpricing?

    The price of the Apple Wireless mouse is insane. I can get a Logitech which will do the same things and will let me save money.
  • Reply 30 of 62
    I'm a Mac convert, coming over from the world of the PC two years ago. I also came from a world of the three-bottom + scroll wheel mouse. The only thing I miss is the scroll wheel; I don't miss it that much.



    On the Mac, I'm very aware of keyboard shortcuts and often use those. With PCs it is easy to get too reliant on the mouse. I love how everything is functional on the Macintosh and how I get familiar with everything pretty easily. I agree that the one-buttom mouse has helped developers focus on simplification. Funny thing is that with fewer buttons I still get things done in less time and can find things better.



    I'll be disappointed if Apple ever goes away from the one-button. I'd love it if they added a scroll wheel, preferably for the thumb. I'd be okay if they made their own two+ button mouse and sold it seperately, but I think packaging the one-button is distinctive and a lot of people don't care. People like my parents and many friends who aren't computer gurus love the simplicity. They never click the wrong button. They know how CTRL-Click works. For them the one-button is a time and error saver.



    Macs are supposed to be so simple to understand that anyone can use them. The one button offers a true point-and-click interface where the user never has to ask, "which button do I click?". I've grown to love it, especially on the laptops where I never accidently hit the other button. I only use the trackpad on my laptop and love the large pad and big button. It makes all other laptop interfaces a pain in the neck.



    Besides, every mouse I've seen nowadays will work on the Mac if its USB. You've got a great variety to choose from and removing the mouse from the package would likely not lower the price. Giving an option would probably raise the price slightly. So what? Go to CompUSA or NewEgg and get a mouse. Want Bluetooth? Well, you can find those too. Be glad that Apple has provided support for all the bells and whistles you have on your sophisticated mouse instead of whining that they don't make one. When you blow over $1000 on a machine (and likely much more), $50 isn't a signifcant amount in regards to it, and you can get a nice third-party mouse for that much or less.
  • Reply 31 of 62
    chipzchipz Posts: 100member
    I have used both one button and multi button mice and feel confident with either one. When I first switched to Mac a couple of years ago, I must admit that I missed the multi button mouse used on Windows machines. However, it didn't take long to get used to the Apple way. The multi button may save a few steps, but the time involved is not really that great. Live with the Apple one button mouse!
  • Reply 32 of 62
    IMHO this is a ridculous discussion.

    a) Apple does not offer a multi-button, scrollwheel mouse

    b) Mac OS X 10.x works perfect with 2-Button+scroll-wheel mice!



    So which one is really important? You can take practically any (dirt-)cheap to expensive mouse, hook it up and the 2nd mouse button and the scroll wheel works out of the box. Drivers are only needed for supporting extended functionality (such as the ridiculous amount of buttons some Logitech mice have nowadays).



    So Apple perfectly acknowldeges the necessity (or better obsession) for some, to have more than a single mouse-button, BUT Apple itself does right now not offer mice with more than a single button, where's the problem?
  • Reply 33 of 62
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    I have a Kensington Studio Mouse at work and home. There are just too many things that are available from a right-click. I understand that Apple might be trying to influence initerface design, but they haven't done this themselves! FCP has a ton of very hand option on the rt-click, the finder has many options on rt-click, iTunes has it, etc. The reality is that despite Apple's intentions, modern apps on Mac and PCs relly on the contextual menu.



    Beyond that, I am addicted to the scroll pad, button combos, and middle button. Also, every PC user that I bring to the Mac begins by complaining about the 1-button mouse.



    I think most of the pureist here are missing some really important pints. I like the idea of making an interface so robust that a 2nd-btn is redundant, but this is just not the case.
  • Reply 34 of 62
    Mice suck. Trackballs rule.



    Now stop all this bickering about how many buttons should or shouldn't be on those terrible mice and acknowledge the superiority of the mighty trackball.



    - Jasen.
  • Reply 35 of 62
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Keda

    I have a Kensington Studio Mouse at work and home. There are just too many things that are available from a right-click. I understand that Apple might be trying to influence initerface design, but they haven't done this themselves! FCP has a ton of very hand option on the rt-click, the finder has many options on rt-click, iTunes has it, etc. The reality is that despite Apple's intentions, modern apps on Mac and PCs relly on the contextual menu.



    FCP is a Pro app, and those frequently change the rules for user efficiency... they're for power users.



    As for the Finder, I believe you are simply wrong. Please point out an action that is *ONLY* available under a contextual menu. Contextual menus are for speed, but should NEVER be the ONLY way to perform an action.



    Quote:

    Beyond that, I am addicted to the scroll pad, button combos, and middle button. Also, every PC user that I bring to the Mac begins by complaining about the 1-button mouse.



    I think most of the pureist here are missing some really important pints. I like the idea of making an interface so robust that a 2nd-btn is redundant, but this is just not the case.




    Actually, it is, except for the Pro apps, and even those are generally rare and specific changes.
  • Reply 36 of 62
    amoryaamorya Posts: 1,103member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Actually, it is, except for the Pro apps, and even those are generally rare and specific changes.



    The only real exception is web browsers.



    I've long had an idea about how to remake the browser interface - start with the concept of double-click for link following. One click will 'select' a link, like selecting a finder icon. From there, menu options can be applied to it.



    Mebbe when I finally manage to grasp Cocoa I'll try making one, if WebKit allows that kind of flexibility. Probably take a while yet though - I'm still working my way through WebObjects before I devote serious time to Cocoa!



    Amorya
  • Reply 37 of 62
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Amorya

    The only real exception is web browsers.



    I've long had an idea about how to remake the browser interface - start with the concept of double-click for link following. One click will 'select' a link, like selecting a finder icon. From there, menu options can be applied to it.




    This is going to kill you.



    That's the way it was originally.



    Tim Berners-Lee designed the first web browser on a NeXT, and it worked exactly like that.



    Blame that runt Marc Andreesen for screwing up UI design for everyone for foreseeable future, the moron.



    Biggest UI screwup EVAH.
  • Reply 38 of 62
    pookjppookjp Posts: 280member
    I use my second button all the time in Illustrator and Photoshop, and even find myself employing it quite frequently while using the Finder. The downsides of employing a two button mouse are so miniscule compared to the positives that I have to believe it is only Steve's being obstinate that it is not included.
  • Reply 39 of 62
    amoryaamorya Posts: 1,103member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    This is going to kill you.



    That's the way it was originally.



    Tim Berners-Lee designed the first web browser on a NeXT, and it worked exactly like that.



    Blame that runt Marc Andreesen for screwing up UI design for everyone for foreseeable future, the moron.



    Biggest UI screwup EVAH.




    Yeah, one of the Psion web browsers worked like that. (Can't remember if it was Opera or the built-in one.) Ever since using that, it just seemed to make more sense - I use a one button mouse, so it requires a fair bit of control-clickery for me to browse the net effectively...



    Amorya
  • Reply 40 of 62
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    Quote:

    As for the Finder, I believe you are simply wrong. Please point out an action that is *ONLY* available under a contextual menu. Contextual menus are for speed, but should NEVER be the ONLY way to perform an action.



    This is the mentality I was referring to. People want a 2-button mouse because it makes life so much easier. I didn't say it was the *ONLY* way, but it is certainly the best way to get info, apply labels, open with..., copy, and enable folder actions (only way?). BTW, this is just in the Finder.



    Even non-pro apps like mail, iTunes, iPhoto, and Safari make extensive use of contextual menus. When I first got my 2-brn, I was shocked at the level of productivity I gained from a rt-click. BTW, I don't the 'Pro App' caveat hold much water when you are selling $3000 liquid-cooled pro-machines.



    Purist are cool. They are the reason the original M3 came to the states and the reason Apple is in business today, but they should not dictate mouse design. For all his vision, I think Steve is off base on this one.
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