Well it doesn't look like any new iMacs, eMac, nor new FP screens are coming out this expo. <a href="http://www.Thinksecret.com"; target="_blank">www.Thinksecret.com</a> They are always right. SO I guess that means no G5 for awhile still. Damn!
Well it doesn't look like any new iMacs, eMac, nor new FP screens are coming out this expo. . .
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Now you are the one who is off topic. Oh well. There is one statement in the link that looks a little strange to me.
"Historically, Apple has often delayed announcing new products to clear out inventory of products," one un-named source said. "This is not an unusual decision. We're being told this decision was made long before Christmas in anticipation of low sales levels moving into the December buying period."
If Apple anticipated low sales in the Christmas buying period, and they wanted to clear inventory of some models, why wouldn't they have a short term price reduction on those models or other such promotion? Now that Christmas buying is over, it will take even longer to clear them out. Speculation: it is a smoke screen from Apple? I hate the pre-show roller coaster rides.
NO wait just one minute! The topic name is "Apple needs G5 says CEO of Europe's Largest Mac dealer" and I said, "Looks like they won't get the G5 for awhile yet." How is this off topic.
Now you are the one who is off topic. Oh well. There is one statement in the link that looks a little strange to me.
"Historically, Apple has often delayed announcing new products to clear out inventory of products," one un-named source said. "This is not an unusual decision. We're being told this decision was made long before Christmas in anticipation of low sales levels moving into the December buying period."
If Apple anticipated low sales in the Christmas buying period, and they wanted to clear inventory of some models, why wouldn't they have a short term price reduction on those models or other such promotion? Now that Christmas buying is over, it will take even longer to clear them out. Speculation: it is a smoke screen from Apple? I hate the pre-show roller coaster rides.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Speculation: it is a smoke screen from Apple? I hate the pre-show roller coaster rides."
If it is a smoke screen then it is the first time that Apple has tried this of late, don't know about long history. I do hope you are right though. And don't you mean that you love to hate the pre-show roller coaster rides, just like the rest of us.
<strong>PC OEMs don't do the R&D... Remember, Apple does the OS, the hardware, the design of all the cases and mobos, the chip sets, the packaging, the marketing....etc. etc.... They literally *touch* everything, including the power supplies. The list goes on.
Dell, Gateway and others simply "repackage" components, mobos included, along with the Windoze OS...
The Dell’s, Gateways, and Compaqs of the world are specifically positioned to be low cost providers of repackaged components. None of them have to amortize software (OS) development costs (as well as many other R&D costs) in their prices. Apple does. As you can see, the PC market is extremely cutthroat with absolutely no brand-loyalty. People will simply buy the *cheapest* machine with the highest perceived *number* ratings / specs. during any given week. This is killing Gateway and it looks like Gateway is going to be the next to do a belly-up.
Apple at least provides a means to differentiate their products from the vast majority cookie-cutter Wintelon PC systems. But I would have guessed that this argument has been debated to death already. It's incredible that there are still a bunch of people out there that just don't get it.
--
Ed M.</strong><hr></blockquote>
the above claimings are not the facts!!! hp and ibm do have their r&d and do most of things themselves. who told you that there is no loyalty in pc market? if so, why people keep buying dell or gateway? beside my mac, i buy dell while my brother-in-law keeps buying pc workstation from hp. why? because they not only have cheaper product but also have good, i mean very good, product. my dual mmd powermac is screaming like a hell while my brother-in-law's hp vectra(sp?) is so quite i keep asking him whether it is dead or not. by the way, he has 2 hp pc workstations with ghz pentium 4 and the price for 2 is the one i paid for my dual mmd powermac.
yes, apple does its own os, but it does not spare them for scrutiny. the industrial trend is that you have to keep the cost low and product stable in order to sell. apple could against this. but it will be troubling.
i know little bit of printing industry. now, there are only couple of fine private printing firms in this country. yes, they do every process by themselves and get everything the best. the books they sell are around one grand to ten grand, of course, and are in limited number of issues. their customers are loyal and small collectors since they lose the big market to bigger and leaner firms like wiley, etc. if you look their work, it is breath-taking and keep wondering how a book could be made like that. it is an art, not just a common sense of a _book_.
you could keep arguing that apple does this or that. but as long as it could keep cost down without sacrifice on quality, apple will be ok. otherwise, you and i both know the result. for me, i really don't want to see apple to end up to a private fine computer maker...
No they don't. You pay that (including a profit for Dell) and it's even specified on your price list.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Huh?
Matsu is correct.
If I buy a Mac, I pay for Apple hardware R&D and Apple software R&D.
If I buy a Dell, I pay for Dell hardware R&D and a Windows License Fee which includes MS R&D and MS profit.
That's the comparison that should be made. Negelecting the Windows license fee makes the comparison faulty. It's a 3rd party R&D expense that still gets passed on to the consumer.
It would be really great if Macs were priced more competitively. Why they are not is a very good question. A DP 1GHz G4 would most likely sell well for $1200.
Mr. Steve is not so narrowminded, shortsighted, or foolish to set prices on a whim. At any given moment Apple is an innovator and industry leader in new technology, while at the same time it lags woefully behind in product performance and market share.
I think the reasons are complex (not that they don't need to be addressed by Apple). And, argument based on speculation is not getting us anywhere. IMHO.
So by dropping their prices by $300 they would suddenly sell thousands more and gain market share from the flood of pc switchers would now like the $300 cheaper macs?
What am I, some kind of lightening rod for anti price-competition whining?
Look at it this way and tell me if prices don't matter. Best selling model, the only model whose sales don't go limp as a cold tuna 2-3 months after releases/refreshes? The iBook. Anyone wanna guess why? I bet you I can tell you what the best selling Powerbook model is going to be, now that a price/feature competitive version exists, hint, it's also the cheapest Powerbook.
Don't give me "economies of scale," and the "you must have no business sense" BS apple apologist defense mechanism. All the "economies of scale" lemmings need to learn the term "Diminsihing returns" they do eventually kick in: Dell has scale, but so does Apple, or any of the top 5-6 system builders, and at the end of the day Dell's ability to build a cheaper machine based on favorable component/assembly costs DOES NOT add up to more than 200 on the absolute most expensive of machines. We went through it once before for people who care to look it up, and on the lower priced models Dell is capable of shipping and building the machine for, maybe, 70 USD less than say Apple or anybody else.
Basically, yes, nobody can build a machine quite as frugally as dell, but they can get pretty close, certainly close enough to make you wonder why a machine ought to cost 50%, or even 100% more.
No one is asking Apple to crank out loss leaders, just to stay within 200USD of the competition. When they have done that, they've been very successful. You think they've sold iBooks at a loss? I don't.
Yea but you are neglecting the biggest factor, demand. Dell sells 2-3 fold what Apple sells, so they can inreturn sell it 2-4 fold less. Simple economics, low demand charge high, high demand charge low. Until Apple reaches a certain plateu, it will always be slightly higher. True, one way to get there would be to lower prices. However, looking at what Apple is doing is smart as well- The iPod gets the Apple brand fixed into everyone's mind, everyone wants OS X but don't want to pay to upgrade or switch to more expensive hardware. The iApps make X more appealing as with mac platform as a whole. The iBook is priced right, the iMac is very close and the pBooks are right there as well. (don't argue specs for price as we can't do jack about speed) So Apple gets a few products to tempt those with an iPod who know about OSX or have seen the ads or Apple stores.
Once the pro machines get the 970, I'm sure we will see a better pricing scheme and features and speed to boot. So I do see clearly now the rain has gone.
Comments
<strong>
Well it doesn't look like any new iMacs, eMac, nor new FP screens are coming out this expo. . .
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Now you are the one who is off topic. Oh well. There is one statement in the link that looks a little strange to me.
"Historically, Apple has often delayed announcing new products to clear out inventory of products," one un-named source said. "This is not an unusual decision. We're being told this decision was made long before Christmas in anticipation of low sales levels moving into the December buying period."
If Apple anticipated low sales in the Christmas buying period, and they wanted to clear inventory of some models, why wouldn't they have a short term price reduction on those models or other such promotion? Now that Christmas buying is over, it will take even longer to clear them out. Speculation: it is a smoke screen from Apple? I hate the pre-show roller coaster rides.
[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: snoopy ]</p>
<strong>
Now you are the one who is off topic. Oh well. There is one statement in the link that looks a little strange to me.
"Historically, Apple has often delayed announcing new products to clear out inventory of products," one un-named source said. "This is not an unusual decision. We're being told this decision was made long before Christmas in anticipation of low sales levels moving into the December buying period."
If Apple anticipated low sales in the Christmas buying period, and they wanted to clear inventory of some models, why wouldn't they have a short term price reduction on those models or other such promotion? Now that Christmas buying is over, it will take even longer to clear them out. Speculation: it is a smoke screen from Apple? I hate the pre-show roller coaster rides.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Speculation: it is a smoke screen from Apple? I hate the pre-show roller coaster rides."
If it is a smoke screen then it is the first time that Apple has tried this of late, don't know about long history. I do hope you are right though. And don't you mean that you love to hate the pre-show roller coaster rides, just like the rest of us.
<strong>PC OEMs don't do the R&D... Remember, Apple does the OS, the hardware, the design of all the cases and mobos, the chip sets, the packaging, the marketing....etc. etc.... They literally *touch* everything, including the power supplies. The list goes on.
Dell, Gateway and others simply "repackage" components, mobos included, along with the Windoze OS...
The Dell’s, Gateways, and Compaqs of the world are specifically positioned to be low cost providers of repackaged components. None of them have to amortize software (OS) development costs (as well as many other R&D costs) in their prices. Apple does. As you can see, the PC market is extremely cutthroat with absolutely no brand-loyalty. People will simply buy the *cheapest* machine with the highest perceived *number* ratings / specs. during any given week. This is killing Gateway and it looks like Gateway is going to be the next to do a belly-up.
Apple at least provides a means to differentiate their products from the vast majority cookie-cutter Wintelon PC systems. But I would have guessed that this argument has been debated to death already. It's incredible that there are still a bunch of people out there that just don't get it.
--
Ed M.</strong><hr></blockquote>
the above claimings are not the facts!!! hp and ibm do have their r&d and do most of things themselves. who told you that there is no loyalty in pc market? if so, why people keep buying dell or gateway? beside my mac, i buy dell while my brother-in-law keeps buying pc workstation from hp. why? because they not only have cheaper product but also have good, i mean very good, product. my dual mmd powermac is screaming like a hell while my brother-in-law's hp vectra(sp?) is so quite i keep asking him whether it is dead or not. by the way, he has 2 hp pc workstations with ghz pentium 4 and the price for 2 is the one i paid for my dual mmd powermac.
yes, apple does its own os, but it does not spare them for scrutiny. the industrial trend is that you have to keep the cost low and product stable in order to sell. apple could against this. but it will be troubling.
i know little bit of printing industry. now, there are only couple of fine private printing firms in this country. yes, they do every process by themselves and get everything the best. the books they sell are around one grand to ten grand, of course, and are in limited number of issues. their customers are loyal and small collectors since they lose the big market to bigger and leaner firms like wiley, etc. if you look their work, it is breath-taking and keep wondering how a book could be made like that. it is an art, not just a common sense of a _book_.
you could keep arguing that apple does this or that. but as long as it could keep cost down without sacrifice on quality, apple will be ok. otherwise, you and i both know the result. for me, i really don't want to see apple to end up to a private fine computer maker...
[ 01-08-2003: Message edited by: mellanox ]
[ 01-08-2003: Message edited by: mellanox ]</p>
<strong>
No they don't. You pay that (including a profit for Dell) and it's even specified on your price list.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Huh?
Matsu is correct.
If I buy a Mac, I pay for Apple hardware R&D and Apple software R&D.
If I buy a Dell, I pay for Dell hardware R&D and a Windows License Fee which includes MS R&D and MS profit.
That's the comparison that should be made. Negelecting the Windows license fee makes the comparison faulty. It's a 3rd party R&D expense that still gets passed on to the consumer.
Mr. Steve is not so narrowminded, shortsighted, or foolish to set prices on a whim. At any given moment Apple is an innovator and industry leader in new technology, while at the same time it lags woefully behind in product performance and market share.
I think the reasons are complex (not that they don't need to be addressed by Apple). And, argument based on speculation is not getting us anywhere. IMHO.
Look at it this way and tell me if prices don't matter. Best selling model, the only model whose sales don't go limp as a cold tuna 2-3 months after releases/refreshes? The iBook. Anyone wanna guess why? I bet you I can tell you what the best selling Powerbook model is going to be, now that a price/feature competitive version exists, hint, it's also the cheapest Powerbook.
Don't give me "economies of scale," and the "you must have no business sense" BS apple apologist defense mechanism. All the "economies of scale" lemmings need to learn the term "Diminsihing returns" they do eventually kick in: Dell has scale, but so does Apple, or any of the top 5-6 system builders, and at the end of the day Dell's ability to build a cheaper machine based on favorable component/assembly costs DOES NOT add up to more than 200 on the absolute most expensive of machines. We went through it once before for people who care to look it up, and on the lower priced models Dell is capable of shipping and building the machine for, maybe, 70 USD less than say Apple or anybody else.
Basically, yes, nobody can build a machine quite as frugally as dell, but they can get pretty close, certainly close enough to make you wonder why a machine ought to cost 50%, or even 100% more.
No one is asking Apple to crank out loss leaders, just to stay within 200USD of the competition. When they have done that, they've been very successful. You think they've sold iBooks at a loss? I don't.
[ 01-08-2003: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
Once the pro machines get the 970, I'm sure we will see a better pricing scheme and features and speed to boot. So I do see clearly now the rain has gone.