Steve Jobs' public comments should never be taken at face value and should not be taken as holy decrees. They usually have a particular purpose at a particular time. Apple will undoubtedly have a whole slew of 'home media centre' concepts in the lab but they will stay there until the market has shown itself to actually exist; to be stable in terms of legality, to be potentially profitable, and to be conducive to 'Applification'. We are long way from that situation. Let MS waste its dollars on 'flying kites' until there is some real evidence of a mass public desire for these things.
Um, actually, MCE (Media Center) is one of Microsoft's better products. This baseless bashing is rather immature and silly. Have you tried the product yourself, Kickaha?
I assume not.
Yes, I have, but my remarks were based more on reviews of the latest version of the product from PC-oriented sources.
It hasn't even won over the converted. That's a big 'ouch'.
Sorry to 'insult' your purchase, but as was previously said, it's your money.
Steve Jobs' public comments should never be taken at face value and should not be taken as holy decrees.
True about the holy decree thing. Robert Cringley of PBS fame once said claivoyantly that Steve Jobs is absolutely sure about what these things until he changes his mind.
However, AFAIK Jobs never directly said anything like, "no, we won't tie Macs to TVs in any way," his answers were always more, uh, philosophical: you tune out to watch TV and you tune in to use a computer, or something to that effect. Stuff like that. At face value, all he's said is that the nature of each device is different. IMO, it doesn't proclude the idea that they can complement one another. That's my beef with what I understand about the Media Center PC: it doens't seem so much complementary as much as supplementary, or rather, intended to supplant your TV viewing patterns.
Actually, MCE supports HDTV resolution, but keep marinating in your ignorance and delusion. Oh, and pray tell, please *do* enlighten me as to how I am able to watch DVDs on my TV through MCE, because, well, I can.
Reading is fundamental. I specifically mentioned no DVD output from "component" outputs which is preferable to anything else besids DVI/HDMI. Again a $180 DVD offers this...MCE doesn't.
The more I think about it, I come to the realization that Apple would never, ever release a "MacOS X: Media Center edition" product. Never.
It's not their style. Only Microsoft would dream up a product that divorces the hardware from it's UI like that.
Apple goes for a single lifestyle device, where the user doesn't even think about the operating system a la iPod.
If Apple saw an opportunity in next-generation TV, they'd build a TV, with Quicktime 7, program guide, Tivo capability and internet connectivity built-in.
Right now, you turn a tv on, and it works. Apple would do no less.
The more I think about it, I come to the realization that Apple would never, ever release a "MacOS X: Media Center edition" product. Never.
It's not their style. Only Microsoft would dream up a product that divorces the hardware from it's UI like that.
Apple goes for a single lifestyle device, where the user doesn't even think about the operating system a la iPod.
If Apple saw an opportunity in next-generation TV, they'd build a TV, with Quicktime 7, program guide, Tivo capability and internet connectivity built-in.
Right now, you turn a tv on, and it works. Apple would do no less.
The more I think about it, I come to the realization that Apple would never, ever release a "MacOS X: Media Center edition" product. Never.
It's not their style. Only Microsoft would dream up a product that divorces the hardware from it's UI like that.
Apple goes for a single lifestyle device, where the user doesn't even think about the operating system a la iPod.
If Apple saw an opportunity in next-generation TV, they'd build a TV, with Quicktime 7, program guide, Tivo capability and internet connectivity built-in.
Right now, you turn a tv on, and it works. Apple would do no less.
Frankly I'm suprised at how much thought everyone has given to this topic. Obviously I'm not the only Mac user who's thinking along these lines; COOL! Though I'm sure "Apple" doesn't read these forums themselves perhaps they've seen the interest thier audience has in such a device/ software combo.
If Apple saw an opportunity in next-generation TV, they'd build a TV, with Quicktime 7, program guide, Tivo capability and internet connectivity built-in.
Right now, you turn a tv on, and it works. Apple would do no less.
This is a ghastly idea, and I really hope you're wrong. There are thousands of TV monitors on the market to fit all sizes, shapes, technologies, budgets, etc etc. Apple would ship at most 3 kinds. This product would go nowhere.
On the other hand, a thin discless A/V client (a la EyeHome or Roku HD1000) that you plug into your system like any other AV component and looks at home on the rack and comes with a remote control. Keep the cost down, keep it independent of all those other factors that consumers worry about so much. Do it right -- something nobody else has managed yet (EyeHome is Mac-only, not HDTV, and has a few other issues; Roku's software sucks). This is what I'm really hoping for from Apple.
Yeah, I think the worst thing Apple could do is actually introduce a TV or TV-like device. That market is saturated with very good companies for this. It's why Apple won't make a digital camera even though they make iPhoto. I see Apple's opportunity being in the iPhoto equivalent for video/TV/mDVD/movies, not in the device itself. The other factor I've forgetten to mention that can throw a wrench in the works is the cable and satellite companies, who really control the content.
I agree I think that if they did ever release anything it should be something like a "headless client" and it has to integrate into existing home theater rigs, standard component size and should have a remote control. Niveus is using media center software for thier unit, very pricey, but also vary capable, high def, and two SD streams and it can record all three at the same time, and a slew of other impressive specs. I was considering buying one myself, (if i can put itunes on it that is), but overall that's exactly what it's missing a great interface and great software. Check it out...
I'm sure there would be more than a few drawbacks, but I'm ready to buy now and Apple has no options. Getting back to the specific topic of this thread, will Apple "retaliate"? and if so what are the major glitches that need to be smoothed over, technologically speaking, very little the Denali proves that, as I noted earlier software and user interface are definitely a problem, the cost seems a bit prohibitive (again the Denali proves that). So Apple is great at streamlining the user experience, so nothing stopping them there, but cost wise they like high margins, and I don't think they would sell many of these if they cost as much as a high end Power Mac, unless perhaps it was more like a server that also integrated with the home, keeping tabs on things like, electric, heat, water, alarms etc.
I really don't understand what's so bad with getting a miglia TVR card and a radeon 7000 or 9200.
I can't pause live television, but I can do everything else, including program it to record from anywhere with an internet connection (which I'm almost done rigging), and download recorded programs to other computers.
I really don't understand what's so bad with getting a miglia TVR card and a radeon 7000 or 9200.
I can't pause live television, but I can do everything else, including program it to record from anywhere with an internet connection (which I'm almost done rigging), and download recorded programs to other computers.
I don't want my computer in my home theatre -- its too big, too noisy, and too expensive. All I want is a device to access my computer's content, and deliver it to the home theater. Ethernet in, component+digital audio out, whatever decoding in the middle is required, and a remote to control the thing (actually just the codes for my programmable remote would be fine, but in practice that wouldn't fly). $300, dead quiet, looks at home in the A/V rack. The software can just be part of the iLife package -- iTV or something. The hardware is just an interface to the iLife package from your A/V system.
First off, Microsoft raises the bar, however incrementally, with it's third try at Media Center as the "Digital Hub". While Apple seems to miss the boat completely by turning a blind eye to incorporating TV into it's vision of a "Digital Hub", What are they waiting for Digital Television?
Apple had better get something out there before Microsoft (or someone else) gets it right. To leave Microsoft unopposed in this area is to concede the digital convergence of television to Monopoly forces,
Like with iTunes and the ITMS, there is a market in downloadable video streams. This of course will compete with Cable and Satellite providers who offer "Pay Per View". Like with ITMS it's not about large profits, it's about an alternative to total control by Microsoft.
If we accept that there should be an Apple Home Entertainment product (the topic of this thread), then what should it be? From Programmer we have a minimalist approach:
Quote:
Originally posted by Programmer
... a thin discless A/V client (a la EyeHome or Roku HD1000) that you plug into your system like any other AV component and looks at home on the rack and comes with a remote control. Keep the cost down, keep it independent of all those other factors that consumers worry about so much. Do it right ... This is what I'm really hoping for from Apple.
And from spiff monkey we have a rather high end approach:
Quote:
Originally posted by spiff monkey
I agree I think that if they did ever release anything it should be something like a "headless client" and it has to integrate into existing home theater rigs, standard component size and should have a remote control. Niveus is using media center software for thier unit, very pricey, but also vary capable, high def, and two SD streams and it can record all three at the same time, and a slew of other impressive specs.
So from Programmer we have the low cost A/V switchbox, and from spiff monkey were are offered a high end solution like Niveus Media Center - Denali Edition. Is there a middle ground that Apple can take?
I propose an "iServe" a headless (OMG!!!) box that sits in the standard AV stack and meets Programmers specifications out of the box, but can also add functionality of a file server and storage system simply by adding SATA hard drives, up to four or so to handle the huge requirements of some users.
The new iMac looks pretty nice inside, so just fit those components in the box, but with two of three PCI express expansion slots to add a graphics card if needed, with an option for a HDTV tuner card to make the iServe into a Personal Video Recorder if desired.
So what would this cost? I'd say Apple could offer the stripper version for $999 and make money. Basically a 1.6 iMac without the screen, but with Airport Extreme and Bluetooth standard.
In the middle would be a 1.8 GHz G5 with a 250 GB hard drive and TV tuner card for $1499.
At the top end would be a 2 GHz G5 w/ one terabyte (4 x 250GB) hard disk storage iServe with a HDTV tuner PCIe card and gigabyte of RAM BTO @ $2499.
Of course the hardware specs are not the most important thing here, the software implementation would be the biggest innovation for the Apple Home Entertainment System when comparing it to the ever improving Microsoft Home Entertainment System.
Will Apple ever make a true and complete Digital Hub?
First off, Microsoft raises the bar, however incrementally, with it's third try at Media Center as the "Digital Hub". While Apple seems to miss the boat completely by turning a blind eye to incorporating TV into it's vision of a "Digital Hub", What are they waiting for Digital Television?
Apple had better get something out there before Microsoft (or someone else) gets it right. To leave Microsoft unopposed in this area is to concede the digital convergence of television to Monopoly forces,
I think Apple's waiting for a cable box with firewire that's widely available.
Either that or they just don't want to deal with it or don't care.
I think Apple's waiting for a cable box with firewire that's widely available.
Personally, I want everything FireWire. TV, DVD, Amp, Cable Box, DVR, Computer. All interconnected with single FireWire cables rather than a mish-mash of RCA cables, S-Video, Component video, Optical fiber, Coax, etc. I think most mac users "get" this. When will the rest of the world? It would be awesome to plug your iPod Dock's firewire cable in to your amp, and it would transfer digital audio and power.
Comments
Equally applicable to tablet PC's
Originally posted by m01ety
Um, actually, MCE (Media Center) is one of Microsoft's better products. This baseless bashing is rather immature and silly. Have you tried the product yourself, Kickaha?
I assume not.
Yes, I have, but my remarks were based more on reviews of the latest version of the product from PC-oriented sources.
It hasn't even won over the converted. That's a big 'ouch'.
Sorry to 'insult' your purchase, but as was previously said, it's your money.
Originally posted by vinney57
Steve Jobs' public comments should never be taken at face value and should not be taken as holy decrees.
True about the holy decree thing. Robert Cringley of PBS fame once said claivoyantly that Steve Jobs is absolutely sure about what these things until he changes his mind.
However, AFAIK Jobs never directly said anything like, "no, we won't tie Macs to TVs in any way," his answers were always more, uh, philosophical: you tune out to watch TV and you tune in to use a computer, or something to that effect. Stuff like that. At face value, all he's said is that the nature of each device is different. IMO, it doesn't proclude the idea that they can complement one another. That's my beef with what I understand about the Media Center PC: it doens't seem so much complementary as much as supplementary, or rather, intended to supplant your TV viewing patterns.
Actually, MCE supports HDTV resolution, but keep marinating in your ignorance and delusion. Oh, and pray tell, please *do* enlighten me as to how I am able to watch DVDs on my TV through MCE, because, well, I can.
Reading is fundamental. I specifically mentioned no DVD output from "component" outputs which is preferable to anything else besids DVI/HDMI. Again a $180 DVD offers this...MCE doesn't.
HDTV is OTA only
It's not their style. Only Microsoft would dream up a product that divorces the hardware from it's UI like that.
Apple goes for a single lifestyle device, where the user doesn't even think about the operating system a la iPod.
If Apple saw an opportunity in next-generation TV, they'd build a TV, with Quicktime 7, program guide, Tivo capability and internet connectivity built-in.
Right now, you turn a tv on, and it works. Apple would do no less.
Originally posted by Frank777
The more I think about it, I come to the realization that Apple would never, ever release a "MacOS X: Media Center edition" product. Never.
It's not their style. Only Microsoft would dream up a product that divorces the hardware from it's UI like that.
Apple goes for a single lifestyle device, where the user doesn't even think about the operating system a la iPod.
If Apple saw an opportunity in next-generation TV, they'd build a TV, with Quicktime 7, program guide, Tivo capability and internet connectivity built-in.
Right now, you turn a tv on, and it works. Apple would do no less.
Very well said. I agree.
Originally posted by Frank777
The more I think about it, I come to the realization that Apple would never, ever release a "MacOS X: Media Center edition" product. Never.
It's not their style. Only Microsoft would dream up a product that divorces the hardware from it's UI like that.
Apple goes for a single lifestyle device, where the user doesn't even think about the operating system a la iPod.
If Apple saw an opportunity in next-generation TV, they'd build a TV, with Quicktime 7, program guide, Tivo capability and internet connectivity built-in.
Right now, you turn a tv on, and it works. Apple would do no less.
Bravo 8)
Originally posted by Frank777
Right now, you turn a tv on, and it works. Apple would do no less.
Well said. Lets hope for a product from Apple that addresses this segment.
Originally posted by Frank777
If Apple saw an opportunity in next-generation TV, they'd build a TV, with Quicktime 7, program guide, Tivo capability and internet connectivity built-in.
Right now, you turn a tv on, and it works. Apple would do no less.
This is a ghastly idea, and I really hope you're wrong. There are thousands of TV monitors on the market to fit all sizes, shapes, technologies, budgets, etc etc. Apple would ship at most 3 kinds. This product would go nowhere.
On the other hand, a thin discless A/V client (a la EyeHome or Roku HD1000) that you plug into your system like any other AV component and looks at home on the rack and comes with a remote control. Keep the cost down, keep it independent of all those other factors that consumers worry about so much. Do it right -- something nobody else has managed yet (EyeHome is Mac-only, not HDTV, and has a few other issues; Roku's software sucks). This is what I'm really hoping for from Apple.
Niveus Media Center Denali
I'm sure there would be more than a few drawbacks, but I'm ready to buy now and Apple has no options. Getting back to the specific topic of this thread, will Apple "retaliate"? and if so what are the major glitches that need to be smoothed over, technologically speaking, very little the Denali proves that, as I noted earlier software and user interface are definitely a problem, the cost seems a bit prohibitive (again the Denali proves that). So Apple is great at streamlining the user experience, so nothing stopping them there, but cost wise they like high margins, and I don't think they would sell many of these if they cost as much as a high end Power Mac, unless perhaps it was more like a server that also integrated with the home, keeping tabs on things like, electric, heat, water, alarms etc.
Thoughts?
I can't pause live television, but I can do everything else, including program it to record from anywhere with an internet connection (which I'm almost done rigging), and download recorded programs to other computers.
Originally posted by slughead
I really don't understand what's so bad with getting a miglia TVR card and a radeon 7000 or 9200.
I can't pause live television, but I can do everything else, including program it to record from anywhere with an internet connection (which I'm almost done rigging), and download recorded programs to other computers.
I don't want my computer in my home theatre -- its too big, too noisy, and too expensive. All I want is a device to access my computer's content, and deliver it to the home theater. Ethernet in, component+digital audio out, whatever decoding in the middle is required, and a remote to control the thing (actually just the codes for my programmable remote would be fine, but in practice that wouldn't fly). $300, dead quiet, looks at home in the A/V rack. The software can just be part of the iLife package -- iTV or something. The hardware is just an interface to the iLife package from your A/V system.
Originally posted by Frank777
This thread was becoming a Frank777 fan club, and then Programmer had to spoil all the fun.
That's my patented "wet blanket maneuver".
I often wish that I could afford a dream system that would not only provide superior computer capabilities,
but also allow the user to following their favorite game or show from the comfort of that favorite easy chair.
The trouble is that very few of us can afford $2000-$8000 for
one of the current theater sized HD displays.
The only additional feature necessary would be picture in picture
capabilties.
The ability to monitor "any" media is only a matter of resolution
and connectivity.
It seems to be only a matter of time before public demand
makes this possible in Apple systems.
The best possible system for work and play
Apple had better get something out there before Microsoft (or someone else) gets it right. To leave Microsoft unopposed in this area is to concede the digital convergence of television to Monopoly forces,
Like with iTunes and the ITMS, there is a market in downloadable video streams. This of course will compete with Cable and Satellite providers who offer "Pay Per View". Like with ITMS it's not about large profits, it's about an alternative to total control by Microsoft.
If we accept that there should be an Apple Home Entertainment product (the topic of this thread), then what should it be? From Programmer we have a minimalist approach:
Originally posted by Programmer
... a thin discless A/V client (a la EyeHome or Roku HD1000) that you plug into your system like any other AV component and looks at home on the rack and comes with a remote control. Keep the cost down, keep it independent of all those other factors that consumers worry about so much. Do it right ... This is what I'm really hoping for from Apple.
And from spiff monkey we have a rather high end approach:
Originally posted by spiff monkey
I agree I think that if they did ever release anything it should be something like a "headless client" and it has to integrate into existing home theater rigs, standard component size and should have a remote control. Niveus is using media center software for thier unit, very pricey, but also vary capable, high def, and two SD streams and it can record all three at the same time, and a slew of other impressive specs.
So from Programmer we have the low cost A/V switchbox, and from spiff monkey were are offered a high end solution like Niveus Media Center - Denali Edition. Is there a middle ground that Apple can take?
I propose an "iServe" a headless (OMG!!!) box that sits in the standard AV stack and meets Programmers specifications out of the box, but can also add functionality of a file server and storage system simply by adding SATA hard drives, up to four or so to handle the huge requirements of some users.
The new iMac looks pretty nice inside, so just fit those components in the box, but with two of three PCI express expansion slots to add a graphics card if needed, with an option for a HDTV tuner card to make the iServe into a Personal Video Recorder if desired.
So what would this cost? I'd say Apple could offer the stripper version for $999 and make money. Basically a 1.6 iMac without the screen, but with Airport Extreme and Bluetooth standard.
In the middle would be a 1.8 GHz G5 with a 250 GB hard drive and TV tuner card for $1499.
At the top end would be a 2 GHz G5 w/ one terabyte (4 x 250GB) hard disk storage iServe with a HDTV tuner PCIe card and gigabyte of RAM BTO @ $2499.
Of course the hardware specs are not the most important thing here, the software implementation would be the biggest innovation for the Apple Home Entertainment System when comparing it to the ever improving Microsoft Home Entertainment System.
Will Apple ever make a true and complete Digital Hub?
Originally posted by Aphelion
First off, Microsoft raises the bar, however incrementally, with it's third try at Media Center as the "Digital Hub". While Apple seems to miss the boat completely by turning a blind eye to incorporating TV into it's vision of a "Digital Hub", What are they waiting for Digital Television?
Apple had better get something out there before Microsoft (or someone else) gets it right. To leave Microsoft unopposed in this area is to concede the digital convergence of television to Monopoly forces,
I think Apple's waiting for a cable box with firewire that's widely available.
Either that or they just don't want to deal with it or don't care.
Theoretically they're already available:
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...40426151111599
Originally posted by slughead
I think Apple's waiting for a cable box with firewire that's widely available.
Personally, I want everything FireWire. TV, DVD, Amp, Cable Box, DVR, Computer. All interconnected with single FireWire cables rather than a mish-mash of RCA cables, S-Video, Component video, Optical fiber, Coax, etc. I think most mac users "get" this. When will the rest of the world? It would be awesome to plug your iPod Dock's firewire cable in to your amp, and it would transfer digital audio and power.