New Powerbook "Housing": Will this hold the 970/G5?

chuckster · January 7, 2003 6:39PM

I was curious what people think about the likelihood that the new PB case will someday hold the next generation chip (i.e. 970 or G5 or whatever...). The 17" PB seems to have everything that I have seen people lusting over (Bluetooth, Firewire 2, faster Airport, etc.). I imagine that it will be easy enough to move these options over to a 15" model once Apple clears out their current 15" TiBooks.

I wonder how much tougher the new aluminum casing is compared to the TiBook?

brendon · January 7, 2003 7:56PM

[quote]Originally posted by chuckster:

I was curious what people think about the likelihood that the new PB case will someday hold the next generation chip (i.e. 970 or G5 or whatever...). The 17" PB seems to have everything that I have seen people lusting over (Bluetooth, Firewire 2, faster Airport, etc.). I imagine that it will be easy enough to move these options over to a 15" model once Apple clears out their current 15" TiBooks.

I wonder how much tougher the new aluminum casing is compared to the TiBook?<hr></blockquote>

The case material sure conducts heat much better than Ti. The new case material is used for expensive pots and pans, partially because it does not have hot spots, or minimizes them. Also an interesting note that is on all of this cookware is that Anodized Aluminum shoulld be used with lower heat settings than a person may be used to using. They are right, Anodized Aluminum conducts heat great. I burned several meals before I learned how low I had to turn the burner. Let's just say I learned that sometimes medium can equal high. So yes that case makes a great, GREAT heatsink.

razzfazz · January 7, 2003 8:06PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brendon:



The case material sure conducts heat much better than Ti. The new case material is used for expensive pots and pans, partially because it does not have hot spots, or minimizes them. Also an interesting note that is on all of this cookware is that Anodized Aluminum shoulld be used with lower heat settings than a person may be used to using. <hr></blockquote>

Have you ever used any pots or pans made of Titanium, or what is your comparison ("much better") based on?

Bye,

RazzFazz

brendon · January 7, 2003 10:23PM

[quote]Originally posted by RazzFazz:



Have you ever used any pots or pans made of Titanium, or what is your comparison ("much better") based on?

Bye,

RazzFazz<hr></blockquote>

Sorry, look it up Ti is known for not being a heat conductor as well as a poor conductor of radio waves. I doubt that any cookware will ever be made from Ti.

Al : Thermal conductivity [/W m-1 K-1]: 235

Ti : Thermal conductivity [/W m-1 K-1]: 22

That makes Al 10+ times more thermally(sp) conductive.

Source here: <a href="http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/periodic-table/heat.html"; target="_blank">http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/periodic-table/heat.html</a>;

Cheers, I believe that Anodized Al is even more heat conductive.

brendon · January 7, 2003 10:30PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brendon:



I believe that Anodized Al is even more heat conductive.<hr></blockquote>

Sorry, think that this is wrong. Anodized I believe makes the Al non-stick. We have always known Al cookware that has Teflon coating, which is an insulator. So Anodized Al does conduct heat better than Teflon coated Al. I was both correct and wrong, depending on the context.

@homenow · January 7, 2003 10:42PM

[quote]Originally posted by Brendon:



Sorry, think that this is wrong. Anodized I believe makes the Al non-stick. We have always known Al cookware that has Teflon coating, which is an insulator. So Anodized Al does conduct heat better than Teflon coated Al. I was both correct and wrong, depending on the context.<hr></blockquote>

Anodizing aluminum does not make it non-stick (trust me i have some pans that are anodized). Aluminum is anodized to put a "harder" finish on it and i believe to make it "non-reactive", check out Calphon, their standard cookware is anodized, and they have a higher priced "non-stick" cookware.

With the possible exception of copper, aluminum is one of the best conductors of heat used for cookware. The highest priced pots and pans have an aluminum core sandwitched between a layer of copper and stainless steel or two layers of stainless. Sometimes the interior is coated with teflon as well to make it non-stick.

[ 01-07-2003: Message edited by: @homenow ]

brendon · January 7, 2003 10:59PM

[quote]Originally posted by @homenow:



Anodizing aluminum does not make it non-stick (trust me i have some pans that are anodized). Aluminum is anodized to put a "harder" finish on it and i believe to make it "non-reactive", check out Calphon, their standard cookware is anodized, and they have a higher priced "non-stick" cookware.

With the possible exception of copper, aluminum is one of the best conductors of heat used for cookware. The highest priced pots and pans have an aluminum core sandwitched between a layer of copper and stainless steel or two layers of stainless. Sometimes the interior is coated with teflon as well to make it non-stick.

[ 01-07-2003: Message edited by: @homenow ]<hr></blockquote>

I stand corrected, thanks.

As for the original question, the 17" PowerBook shell is now a great thermal conductor. So the 970 would be more at home in this than Ti. I would think that Apple would wait for the .009 rather than the .013 version if they appear within a short time of each other. The 970 appears to be a much hotter chip than the G4, I say this because I believe that the current G4 is starved a fair amount of the time. The 970 will not suffer from this, I hope.

thegelding · January 7, 2003 11:13PM

i thought the 970 was a fairly cool chip...perhaps i am wrong...i am sure someone has the specs and the watts.....cough brad cough.....g

justafriend · January 8, 2003 12:07AM

Just wanted to throw something out there for everyone to mull over:

Did you hear the way Jobs mentioned this year to be the year of the laptop? (not to mention all of the numbers regarding sales?) Well, it got me thinking... what if the desktop is no longer (or at least not this year) the primary focus? What if the big thing this year isn't the 970 in a PowerMac that 'finally' arrives, but rather the absolute ultimate laptop?

17" PowerBook Pondering:

1. DVI added some time ago...

2. Superdrive added in other PowerBooks only burns at 1x - the new 17" burns at 2x (which is a)desktop speed, and b) possible because they've overcome the heat limits)

3. Bluetooth ready

4. Airport Extreme ready

5. DDR support

6. Looks like there's a LOT of space in that heat dissipating chassis!

7. If this is the year of the laptop - and the 17" is currently only lagging behind the PowerMac in one area - what's to stop them from squeezing another G4 in there?!

There, I said it; I think this latest model is just another step toward the final goal - a dual proc. G4 PowerBook...

telomar · January 8, 2003 2:28AM

Plain Al is lousy for cookware as it tends to corrode quite easily in common cooking environments (it isn't that uncommon to see pitting in Al cookware). Cu bases + some other metal is generally what you'll find in the nicest cookware for its heating properties though. I have dual layered pots that are Cu base with SS inside for resistance.

Anodizing the surface just makes it more resistant. Should remove paint peeling or blistering problems that they've apparently had too. Down side is it can be costly than regular resistance inhibition methods.

kurt · January 8, 2003 4:39AM

I know the preliminary specs say that the 1.2 GHz 970 is a relatively low power chip but was wondering if there were other power management features added. Other chips can adjust clock frequency and shut off portions of the chip when not in use. Is this possible with the 970. Moki hinted at other surprises associated with the 970. Could be a special version meant for portables.

far · January 8, 2003 5:24AM

If the infos about the PPC 970 shipping in March are true, maybe we'll see a 17" PowerBook with this Processor in the next revision? October 2003?

matsu · January 8, 2003 5:54AM

For you motor race fanatics, (cooking? jeesh), there's a process like anodizing (with another name) that can be used to make Al and Ti parts stronger. If you could look at a microscopic image of a metal surface you would see it is porous, because of this, metal can be treated so that a coating will not just sit on the exterior but penetrate the first fraction of a mm of the surface and fill in the porous metal making it very smooth and substantially harder. I had an old race-tech mag around where they describe it, it's a little different from your typical anodizing/coating, the material actually sinks quite deeply into the metal (relatively speaking). Something like it is already at work on fork-tubes and in cylinder walls. Anyway, what I though cool was that while making the metal part considerably stronger, it can make it glassy smooth. Imagine a PB with the glossiness of an iBook, but made out of metal! Not polished, it's hard to describe, ah well, just two bits worth of comment then...

[ 01-08-2003: Message edited by: Matsu ]

visigothe · January 8, 2003 12:24PM

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:

For you motor race fanatics, (cooking? jeesh), there's a process like anodizing (with another name) that can be used to make Al and Ti parts stronger. If you could look at a microscopic image of a metal surface you would see it is porous, because of this, metal can be treated so that a coating will not just sit on the exterior but penetrate the first fraction of a mm of the surface and fill in the porous metal making it very smooth and substantially harder. I had an old race-tech mag around where they describe it, it's a little different from your typical anodizing/coating, the material actually sinks quite deeply into the metal (relatively speaking). Something like it is already at work on fork-tubes and in cylinder walls. Anyway, what I though cool was that while making the metal part considerably stronger, it can make it glassy smooth. Imagine a PB with the glossiness of an iBook, but made out of metal! Not polished, it's hard to describe, ah well, just two bits worth of comment then...

[ 01-08-2003: Message edited by: Matsu ]<hr></blockquote>

It's actually the same thing. Anodi[s|z]ing is a multi-step process [usually using acid] to chemically and physically change the surface of a metal. It is different than a "plating" process, as it does indeed go into the surface, like you said.

This means that any colour applied to the surface during the anodising process won't flake off, as it is "part" of the surface

..oh, and for the cooks out there.... Al is a great conductor, but it isn't dense, so it should be used in conjunction with other metals to prevent things like hot spots... that's why cast-iron pans are great... they retain heat, so when you fill up your pan with food, the pan doesn't cool down, preventing the browning process. You can't really do tht with aluminium alone...take it off the heat for a second, and it becomes *much* cooler, unlike 18/10 steel or iron.

rhumgod · January 8, 2003 12:24PM

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:

...there's a process like anodizing (with another name) that can be used to make Al and Ti parts stronger.

[ 01-08-2003: Message edited by: Matsu ]<hr></blockquote>

Metallurgical bonding? I know they do a lot of this in cylinder and piston work.

tjm · January 8, 2003 1:11PM

[quote]Originally posted by Matsu:

For you motor race fanatics, (cooking? jeesh), there's a process like anodizing (with another name) that can be used to make Al and Ti parts stronger. If you could look at a microscopic image of a metal surface you would see it is porous, because of this, metal can be treated so that a coating will not just sit on the exterior but penetrate the first fraction of a mm of the surface and fill in the porous metal making it very smooth and substantially harder. I had an old race-tech mag around where they describe it, it's a little different from your typical anodizing/coating, the material actually sinks quite deeply into the metal (relatively speaking). Something like it is already at work on fork-tubes and in cylinder walls. Anyway, what I though cool was that while making the metal part considerably stronger, it can make it glassy smooth. Imagine a PB with the glossiness of an iBook, but made out of metal! Not polished, it's hard to describe, ah well, just two bits worth of comment then...

[ 01-08-2003: Message edited by: Matsu ]<hr></blockquote>

I think the process you're referring to is "nitriding". Aluminum nitride is a high-performance (and expensive) ceramic. I've seen demos of turbine engines made of it that glow cherry-red when running - no need for cooling systems. Nitriding puts a thin coat of aluminum nitride on the surfaces, rendering them tougher, more chemical, thermal, and abrasion resistant, and lowers friction substantially.

Not limited to aluminum, BTW. Most metals form very tough nitrides, so just about any metal object can be processed this way.

brendon · January 9, 2003 6:00PM

[quote]Originally posted by visigothe:



..oh, and for the cooks out there.... Al is a great conductor, but it isn't dense, so it should be used in conjunction with other metals to prevent things like hot spots... that's why cast-iron pans are great... they retain heat, so when you fill up your pan with food, the pan doesn't cool down, preventing the browning process. You can't really do tht with aluminium alone...take it off the heat for a second, and it becomes *much* cooler, unlike 18/10 steel or iron.<hr></blockquote>

I believe that this is heat mass, or the amount of stored heat. Cast-iron tends to be massive and therefore capable of storing much more heat. It is a heat sink. Als' ability to conduct heat just means that it will spread the heat over a larger area better than an insulator. To put this in perspective if you were designing the heat dissipation system for a laptop and you found that the shell was made of Al that might make you happy because the shell could augment your system.

matsu · January 9, 2003 7:24PM

Nitriding? I'll dig up that article, wht they refer to was certainly in that vein, though supposedly the best so far at bonding through the surface porosity of the metal. Anyway,

About whether the big Al will hold a PPC 970, I'd say yes. Windows laptops have been dealing with worse than a G4 for a long time now and they're heat dissapation/wattage rating are not at all unlike what IBM announced for 970 at 1.2Ghz. My guess is that throttling lets the first .13u 970's run in the 17"PB easily at 1.2-1.4Ghz. I think it might be the only laptop to get a 970 untill the process shrink it to .09. The 12 and 15 will get motos 7457/RM or GOBI+altivec or something like that with insanely low (rumored) power consumption figures.

New Powerbook "Housing": Will this hold the 970/G5?

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