I'm afraid I just don't understand the infatuation with laptops... small keyboards which are fixed relative to the machine, displays mounted to the back of the keyboard, etc. Sure you can carry them around, but ergonomically they are a nightmare. I don't think the AIO concept is any less valid than it was a couple of years ago, and it won't be any less invalid a couple of years from now -- especially with the ergonomic improvements that the iMac2 brought with it. Sure there are a few markets that would prefer a tower but the market that just wants to buy a machine and use it as-is is much larger.
<strong>I'm afraid I just don't understand the infatuation with laptops... small keyboards which are fixed relative to the machine, displays mounted to the back of the keyboard, etc. Sure you can carry them around, but ergonomically they are a nightmare. I don't think the AIO concept is any less valid than it was a couple of years ago, and it won't be any less invalid a couple of years from now -- especially with the ergonomic improvements that the iMac2 brought with it. Sure there are a few markets that would prefer a tower but the market that just wants to buy a machine and use it as-is is much larger.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree programer. I have used Laptops, and like them, but they are not a full replacement for a desktop. Also a laptop is not a "hub" becouse a "hub" is a fixed element in a network. It might serve as a nice entry point for a network, but dosnt replace it. Will it change from the current iMac, possibly but I dont think that this invalidates the AIO platform.
One of my major concerns right now is that I see product "bloat" happening at Apple. 3 AIO's, iMac "Classic" eMac iMac 15" FP and iMac 17" FP. 5 laptops, iBook 12", 14" PB 12" 15" and 17". It is a nice variety, but they are risking the problems that Apple eliviated when Jobs came on board.
And the bigest concern, as a stock holder and fan of the products, is that we still dont see a clear strategy beyond the G4. Jobs has stated that in 2003 "we will have options" but has yet to clarify that statement. Yes I know the 970 will be here (remember what they say about assmptioins), and the G4 RM as well, but no mention of them yet. I imagiine that developers are getting a little concerned as well, will Apple choose the 970, move to X86, or choose a direction that is out of left field? Hopefully this will be cleared up in the near future, and that will herold a return to competative desktop performance in the consumer and pro lines within the next 12 months, but I dont know that I see it with what we know today.
<strong>I'm afraid I just don't understand the infatuation with laptops... small keyboards which are fixed relative to the machine, displays mounted to the back of the keyboard, etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well programmer, I can say that as a programmer myself, that I enjoy getting out of the office so that I can do my work somewhere where I am not distracted (e.g. a Starbucks). Also, when I work at home, it is far more convenient to take my laptop home than to move an external hard drive between a home and work computer. (setting up a home desktop with a full build environment would be a pain)
As for the disadvantages of an AIO, I would say that they aren't that bad. My laptop keyboard is better than the Dell keyboard on my work desktop, and my screen isn't that bad (1600x1200 at 15 inches- a UXGA screen).
My laptop is the first laptop that I have ever had (work provided), and I like the laptop lifestyle so much that I would never go back to owning a desktop as my primary machine.
The same things that can make an AIO cheap also wil make laptops cheap.
Who's the hub, you or your machine? That's the laptop difference, it follows you, not the other way around. You can always "dock" your laptop when you get home.
Now, if AIO's were expandable, CPU, GPU, easily replaceable drives, fast I/O (yes, faster than today's) or very very cheap, then they'll survive, and certainly there's still a valid case for them today and next year, but the writing is on the wall, it's as plain as the 17" PB. A 20$ stand can solve the monitor height issue and with bluetooth a keyboard and mouse are a simple wireless dock away from ergonomic bliss.
Steve jobs can be overly optimistic. I suspect this means ony something slightly better than what would be expected in the next revision of the powermac and the 970 for the following revision.
<strong>I'm afraid I just don't understand the infatuation with laptops... small keyboards which are fixed relative to the machine, displays mounted to the back of the keyboard, etc. Sure you can carry them around, but ergonomically they are a nightmare.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree completely with you. I really dislike laptops and don't see them as any better than an AIO. Over the past year though I found there were a lot of times when I wasn't at my desk that I wished I had a laptop with me. That's just a case of wanting to access certain things while mobile and better use time though.
An AIO was still the best choice from my point of view when it came to selecting a computer for my mother though. She will never upgrade anything, except RAM that I already maxed, and mobility isn't what she's after. Screen size and quality are important though as are ergonomics and simplicity.
What I might be able to see is computing relying on servers and networking built into the house itself so only a monitor and keyboard is required for an access point around the house. That's a more high cost solution though.
Apple should have made that 17" powerbook with a thin detachable keyboard so your hands aren't right up to the screen when you type at your desk. While we're on the subject of keyboards, there's more than enough room for a number pad! Why not include one and make it a true desktop replacement? That would have been a clincher.
The AIO is not done. When you buy a laptop you make a few concessions. Your HDD will be slower and less spacious. Your LCD will be dimmer. Your other components will be a step or two behind their desktop counterparts all the while being more expensive.
As long as AIO computers are cheaper than laptops and towers they will sell. Gateway has the Profile 4. Sony has the W-Series. I hear HP is also brewing an all-in-one Media Center PC.
Then your hands would be off to one side and probably unbalance the machine if you did use it on your lap. And it's not so huge that you wouldn't use it on your lap at least once or twice. They could pull the keyboard a touch further away from the screen though, or put a number pad off to the side, where a speaker grill currently sits, if they don't mind a little asymmetry, perhaps the mac aesthetes would scoff. Centering a keboard with numberpad would put you hands off to the side most of the time, which is a worse solution?
Eug,
It's not done yet, I say it's got about 4-5 years left, which is very long term I think, and mebbe longer if they get cheap and internally upgradeable. But as computing power in general increases, and more and more tasks fall within the capabilities of a laptop, I see Apple's AIO formula losing favor with consumers who will favor laptops when choosing a basically sealed unit.
<strong>I'm sure a detachable keyboard would cost a ton to replace.
I prefer hooking up a USB keyboard and mouse to my Laptop when I'm home using it at a desk or table. YMMV</strong><hr></blockquote>
?
The only thing connecting my keyboard to my PowerBook is a thin ribbon cable. How expensive would it be to use a retractable wire and an easy to release mechanism to place your keyboard farther from you monitor?
[QB]Then your hands would be off to one side and probably unbalance the machine if you did use it on your lap. And it's not so huge that you wouldn't use it on your lap at least once or twice. They could pull the keyboard a touch further away from the screen though, or put a number pad off to the side, where a speaker grill currently sits, if they don't mind a little asymmetry, perhaps the mac aesthetes would scoff. Centering a keboard with numberpad would put you hands off to the side most of the time, which is a worse solution?
[QB]<hr></blockquote>
That's true, i didn't think of that. The thing is hugely wide. It wouldn't be as much an issue with a 17" screen but it may be a little disorienting at first. I just think it would be cool to disconnect the keyboard from the machine and use it via Bluetooth. i know, I know, pipedream
I would suspect that for most families, a laptop will always be the second computer, if they can even afford a second computer.
Me personally, I would really love a laptop to shuttle back and forth to work, but I can only afford one computer. If it were a laptop, and I take it to work, my wife would have no computer at home for her needs, which are considerable in view of all the organizations she belongs to, PTA's, etc.
Maybe my family is in the minority, but I was just wondering how many families have multiple computers, making a laptop purchase more attractive.
<strong>It's not done yet, I say it's got about 4-5 years left, which is very long term I think, and mebbe longer if they get cheap and internally upgradeable. But as computing power in general increases, and more and more tasks fall within the capabilities of a laptop, I see Apple's AIO formula losing favor with consumers who will favor laptops when choosing a basically sealed unit.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But my point is that unless there is a very fundamental change in the nature of the laptop then they cannot replace any desktop. The screen and keyboard are too close together. After using a laptop for 10 minutes I need to visit a chiropractor. The only way this can change is if the laptop's display is moved to wherre my eyes/neck want it, and the keyboard moves to where my hands want it.
If you said that portable computers may replace desktop machines eventually, then I might agree with you. We're quite a ways off from having projected or eye-mounted displays, and non-conventional keyboard inputs, however. 4-5 years is probably optmistic for replacement, although I suppose we could see prototypes in that time frame.
I also think you overrate the need in the general market for expandability. I know you want it, I want it, and a lot of other professionals, enthusiasts, etc want it... but believe it or not that is actually a fairly small %age of the overall market (where market is defined as the people & businesses who might buy ever buy a desktop computer). Those people want a tool that just works and that they don't want to fiddle with, they just want to use it until it doesn't do what they want anymore (then they replace it again). For those people the expandability gives them nothing, but costs them space... the iMac2 is a great package for that very large potential group (it would be larger if the cost was lower, but as discussions elsewhere have touched on its not clear what the sales vs. cost graph looks like).
[quote] Maybe my family is in the minority, but I was just wondering how many families have multiple computers, making a laptop purchase more attractive.
<hr></blockquote>
do you have teenage kids?? all homes with teenage kids need multiple computers, unless you never want to get on it....so, a computer for the kids (or one for each kid), one for you and the misses and an airport basestation to connect them all....love my basestation (white one), i have no need to update to extreme except that i would love to hook one printer to it and have it available to all the users in the house (five of us use computers in my house.....ouch)....g
. . . I imagiine that developers are getting a little concerned as well, will Apple choose the 970, move to X86, or choose a direction that is out of left field? . . .
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No argument, I just want to nit pick a couple points. Apple made their choice some time ago, and are in the process of implementing it. Apple just hasn't told us. There are big clues to which way Apple is now headed. One clue is that Apple has NOT told all developers what to expect. If Apple had chosen the x86, this would be something all developers need to know. Since the IBM 970 runs existing 32 bit code without penalty, all developers do not need to know far in advance. Regarding a few developers, I would bet that some are under NDA and are now working on 64 bit PPC applications. Just a few, however.
I know it's not a really complex device but have you seen the replacement cost for a PB or iBook keyboard? That's my only concern.
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>
?
The only thing connecting my keyboard to my PowerBook is a thin ribbon cable. How expensive would it be to use a retractable wire and an easy to release mechanism to place your keyboard farther from you monitor?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No argument, I just want to nit pick a couple points. Apple made their choice some time ago, and are in the process of implementing it. Apple just hasn't told us. There are big clues to which way Apple is now headed. One clue is that Apple has NOT told all developers what to expect. If Apple had chosen the x86, this would be something all developers need to know. Since the IBM 970 runs existing 32 bit code without penalty, all developers do not need to know far in advance. Regarding a few developers, I would bet that some are under NDA and are now working on 64 bit PPC applications. Just a few, however.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sherlock snoopy, I presume! I think your logic is right on. To change to x86 would be a BIG DEAL for most applications, and there is no way an emulation environment similar to 68xxx/PPC would perform adequately. So the transition period would be hugh. And then, what about the transition to the Titanic? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
The new 17" Powerbook is getting CLOSE to a desktop replacement, but not quite. First of all, how hard would it have been to split the trackpad button into two buttons? I mean, they sell this rig as a "Pro" machine yet it only has one button. Pro users want two buttons.
I think to be taken seriously as a desktop replacement, the Powerbook needs to be a dual processor machine. At least one model with dual 867MHz CPU's. That would clinch it for me.
Comments
<strong>I'm afraid I just don't understand the infatuation with laptops... small keyboards which are fixed relative to the machine, displays mounted to the back of the keyboard, etc. Sure you can carry them around, but ergonomically they are a nightmare. I don't think the AIO concept is any less valid than it was a couple of years ago, and it won't be any less invalid a couple of years from now -- especially with the ergonomic improvements that the iMac2 brought with it. Sure there are a few markets that would prefer a tower but the market that just wants to buy a machine and use it as-is is much larger.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree programer. I have used Laptops, and like them, but they are not a full replacement for a desktop. Also a laptop is not a "hub" becouse a "hub" is a fixed element in a network. It might serve as a nice entry point for a network, but dosnt replace it. Will it change from the current iMac, possibly but I dont think that this invalidates the AIO platform.
One of my major concerns right now is that I see product "bloat" happening at Apple. 3 AIO's, iMac "Classic" eMac iMac 15" FP and iMac 17" FP. 5 laptops, iBook 12", 14" PB 12" 15" and 17". It is a nice variety, but they are risking the problems that Apple eliviated when Jobs came on board.
And the bigest concern, as a stock holder and fan of the products, is that we still dont see a clear strategy beyond the G4. Jobs has stated that in 2003 "we will have options" but has yet to clarify that statement. Yes I know the 970 will be here (remember what they say about assmptioins), and the G4 RM as well, but no mention of them yet. I imagiine that developers are getting a little concerned as well, will Apple choose the 970, move to X86, or choose a direction that is out of left field? Hopefully this will be cleared up in the near future, and that will herold a return to competative desktop performance in the consumer and pro lines within the next 12 months, but I dont know that I see it with what we know today.
<strong>I'm afraid I just don't understand the infatuation with laptops... small keyboards which are fixed relative to the machine, displays mounted to the back of the keyboard, etc.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well programmer, I can say that as a programmer myself, that I enjoy getting out of the office so that I can do my work somewhere where I am not distracted (e.g. a Starbucks). Also, when I work at home, it is far more convenient to take my laptop home than to move an external hard drive between a home and work computer. (setting up a home desktop with a full build environment would be a pain)
As for the disadvantages of an AIO, I would say that they aren't that bad. My laptop keyboard is better than the Dell keyboard on my work desktop, and my screen isn't that bad (1600x1200 at 15 inches- a UXGA screen).
My laptop is the first laptop that I have ever had (work provided), and I like the laptop lifestyle so much that I would never go back to owning a desktop as my primary machine.
Who's the hub, you or your machine? That's the laptop difference, it follows you, not the other way around. You can always "dock" your laptop when you get home.
Now, if AIO's were expandable, CPU, GPU, easily replaceable drives, fast I/O (yes, faster than today's) or very very cheap, then they'll survive, and certainly there's still a valid case for them today and next year, but the writing is on the wall, it's as plain as the 17" PB. A 20$ stand can solve the monitor height issue and with bluetooth a keyboard and mouse are a simple wireless dock away from ergonomic bliss.
<strong>I'm afraid I just don't understand the infatuation with laptops... small keyboards which are fixed relative to the machine, displays mounted to the back of the keyboard, etc. Sure you can carry them around, but ergonomically they are a nightmare.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree completely with you. I really dislike laptops and don't see them as any better than an AIO. Over the past year though I found there were a lot of times when I wasn't at my desk that I wished I had a laptop with me. That's just a case of wanting to access certain things while mobile and better use time though.
An AIO was still the best choice from my point of view when it came to selecting a computer for my mother though. She will never upgrade anything, except RAM that I already maxed, and mobility isn't what she's after. Screen size and quality are important though as are ergonomics and simplicity.
What I might be able to see is computing relying on servers and networking built into the house itself so only a monitor and keyboard is required for an access point around the house. That's a more high cost solution though.
[ 01-09-2003: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>
As long as AIO computers are cheaper than laptops and towers they will sell. Gateway has the Profile 4. Sony has the W-Series. I hear HP is also brewing an all-in-one Media Center PC.
Eug,
It's not done yet, I say it's got about 4-5 years left, which is very long term I think, and mebbe longer if they get cheap and internally upgradeable. But as computing power in general increases, and more and more tasks fall within the capabilities of a laptop, I see Apple's AIO formula losing favor with consumers who will favor laptops when choosing a basically sealed unit.
I prefer hooking up a USB keyboard and mouse to my Laptop when I'm home using it at a desk or table. YMMV
<strong>I'm sure a detachable keyboard would cost a ton to replace.
I prefer hooking up a USB keyboard and mouse to my Laptop when I'm home using it at a desk or table. YMMV</strong><hr></blockquote>
?
The only thing connecting my keyboard to my PowerBook is a thin ribbon cable. How expensive would it be to use a retractable wire and an easy to release mechanism to place your keyboard farther from you monitor?
[QB]Then your hands would be off to one side and probably unbalance the machine if you did use it on your lap. And it's not so huge that you wouldn't use it on your lap at least once or twice. They could pull the keyboard a touch further away from the screen though, or put a number pad off to the side, where a speaker grill currently sits, if they don't mind a little asymmetry, perhaps the mac aesthetes would scoff. Centering a keboard with numberpad would put you hands off to the side most of the time, which is a worse solution?
[QB]<hr></blockquote>
That's true, i didn't think of that. The thing is hugely wide. It wouldn't be as much an issue with a 17" screen but it may be a little disorienting at first. I just think it would be cool to disconnect the keyboard from the machine and use it via Bluetooth. i know, I know, pipedream
Me personally, I would really love a laptop to shuttle back and forth to work, but I can only afford one computer. If it were a laptop, and I take it to work, my wife would have no computer at home for her needs, which are considerable in view of all the organizations she belongs to, PTA's, etc.
Maybe my family is in the minority, but I was just wondering how many families have multiple computers, making a laptop purchase more attractive.
<strong>It's not done yet, I say it's got about 4-5 years left, which is very long term I think, and mebbe longer if they get cheap and internally upgradeable. But as computing power in general increases, and more and more tasks fall within the capabilities of a laptop, I see Apple's AIO formula losing favor with consumers who will favor laptops when choosing a basically sealed unit.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But my point is that unless there is a very fundamental change in the nature of the laptop then they cannot replace any desktop. The screen and keyboard are too close together. After using a laptop for 10 minutes I need to visit a chiropractor. The only way this can change is if the laptop's display is moved to wherre my eyes/neck want it, and the keyboard moves to where my hands want it.
If you said that portable computers may replace desktop machines eventually, then I might agree with you. We're quite a ways off from having projected or eye-mounted displays, and non-conventional keyboard inputs, however. 4-5 years is probably optmistic for replacement, although I suppose we could see prototypes in that time frame.
I also think you overrate the need in the general market for expandability. I know you want it, I want it, and a lot of other professionals, enthusiasts, etc want it... but believe it or not that is actually a fairly small %age of the overall market (where market is defined as the people & businesses who might buy ever buy a desktop computer). Those people want a tool that just works and that they don't want to fiddle with, they just want to use it until it doesn't do what they want anymore (then they replace it again). For those people the expandability gives them nothing, but costs them space... the iMac2 is a great package for that very large potential group (it would be larger if the cost was lower, but as discussions elsewhere have touched on its not clear what the sales vs. cost graph looks like).
<hr></blockquote>
do you have teenage kids?? all homes with teenage kids need multiple computers, unless you never want to get on it....so, a computer for the kids (or one for each kid), one for you and the misses and an airport basestation to connect them all....love my basestation (white one), i have no need to update to extreme except that i would love to hook one printer to it and have it available to all the users in the house (five of us use computers in my house.....ouch)....g
<strong>
. . . I imagiine that developers are getting a little concerned as well, will Apple choose the 970, move to X86, or choose a direction that is out of left field? . . .
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No argument, I just want to nit pick a couple points. Apple made their choice some time ago, and are in the process of implementing it. Apple just hasn't told us. There are big clues to which way Apple is now headed. One clue is that Apple has NOT told all developers what to expect. If Apple had chosen the x86, this would be something all developers need to know. Since the IBM 970 runs existing 32 bit code without penalty, all developers do not need to know far in advance. Regarding a few developers, I would bet that some are under NDA and are now working on 64 bit PPC applications. Just a few, however.
[quote]Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>
?
The only thing connecting my keyboard to my PowerBook is a thin ribbon cable. How expensive would it be to use a retractable wire and an easy to release mechanism to place your keyboard farther from you monitor?</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>
No argument, I just want to nit pick a couple points. Apple made their choice some time ago, and are in the process of implementing it. Apple just hasn't told us. There are big clues to which way Apple is now headed. One clue is that Apple has NOT told all developers what to expect. If Apple had chosen the x86, this would be something all developers need to know. Since the IBM 970 runs existing 32 bit code without penalty, all developers do not need to know far in advance. Regarding a few developers, I would bet that some are under NDA and are now working on 64 bit PPC applications. Just a few, however.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sherlock snoopy, I presume! I think your logic is right on. To change to x86 would be a BIG DEAL for most applications, and there is no way an emulation environment similar to 68xxx/PPC would perform adequately. So the transition period would be hugh. And then, what about the transition to the Titanic? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Just my opinion
I think to be taken seriously as a desktop replacement, the Powerbook needs to be a dual processor machine. At least one model with dual 867MHz CPU's. That would clinch it for me.
To recap: 2 Buttons, 2 CPU's...