winplosion = Expose for Windows

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    So Apple (seemingly) took someone else's idea and made it better?



    So... exactly like Microsoft.




    Except in reverse. MS likes to take people's ideas, screw them up horribly, smash them into every nook and cranny in Office in different ways, and then drive the originator out of business through FUD and overwhelming marketing campaigns.
  • Reply 22 of 46
    The wonderful fact, however, is that Windows needs this so, so, so desperately dearly. Windows has such an abysmal management of, ironically, windows, that this kind of thing really does good for it. Mac OS X, with is dock, its application hiding, and everything else that makes it so good for running many applications at once doesn't really need expose that much. Truthfully, I hardly ever use expose. That may be because I have lots of monitor, but even on a 20" LCD panel spanned from a 17" widescreen lap-yacht, Windows still blows ass.
  • Reply 23 of 46
    idunnoidunno Posts: 645member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by a_greer

    umm...I have no Mac ...yet... and I am a regular here.



    Soon I shall have the funds for a G5 (god willing) and then i will be able to use my 700 mhz windows xp box for nothing but the occasional VB session.




    Umm... a_greer I posed my question to His Dudeness.



    iDunno
  • Reply 24 of 46
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Quote:

    Except in reverse. MS likes to take people's ideas, screw them up horribly, smash them into every nook and cranny in Office in different ways, and then drive the originator out of business through FUD and overwhelming marketing campaigns.



    What is better than Office?



    Quote:

    The wonderful fact, however, is that Windows needs this so, so, so desperately dearly. Windows has such an abysmal management of, ironically, windows, that this kind of thing really does good for it. Mac OS X, with is dock, its application hiding, and everything else that makes it so good for running many applications at once doesn't really need expose that much.



    Neither OS needs expose that badly.



    Please tell me how the dock provides better window management than the Windows taskbar.
  • Reply 25 of 46
    idunnoidunno Posts: 645member
    Groverat, whats your beef with Expose? I love it!



    Combine expose with apple+tabbing, and I am a multi-tasking Demon!



    I work on PC's all day at college, and the serious lack of good window management sucks. I usually have a few pics open in photoshop, quite a few Maya windows open, and at least two IE windows.... when trying to find a window very quickly, Expose is needed.



    And in regards to MS, they have the monopoly, so it is wrong stealing from a company that only has, what, 12% of the market? With Expose and such Apple would be able to swing users across to their platform, but now if Expose is available on windows.



    iDunno
  • Reply 26 of 46
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    What is better than Office?







    Neither OS needs expose that badly.



    Please tell me how the dock provides better window management than the Windows taskbar.




    Open up a total of 35 windows across 7 applications, and you tell me which system allows faster, less cluttered access between apps and data types.



    1) The universal menubar and dock allow for a no-guess access of all of the data you have open at any given time. The taskbar does not, since many, many apps in windows utilize their own document managment taskbar. We already know that all windows in Windows have their own menubars. The tension between the two paradigms creates nothing but annoyances for users and developers, as you have to always remember the often unique ways to access data in each, separate application.



    2) Windows doesn't have the hiding ability. By hiding the apps I'm not using at the moment, I am freed of a lot of clutter. I can access the hidden apps from the dock, and beyond that, I can have an app with 3 windows live and 3 minimized, and hide all of them, having them reappear just the way they were when I un-hide them.



    3) Next, Mac apps don't tend to take command of the whole monitor. You can blame this on the software developers, but MS does it too, and they sure as shit don't promote good APIs and systems for developing nice, multi-windowed GUIs. Using FormZ or Photoshop in Windows is not a great experience. There's a gray window that blocks out the rest of the screen. A lot of apps are like this. As far as I can tell, Apple never released such a crappy window management GUI API as that.



    I have option-click bound to a mouse button. It's very nice, and it has been a part of the Mac OS since at least System 7. The dock just makes it better. You can say that much of the problems here aren't MS's fault, but they most certainly are. Apple does a wonderful job of chamioning a universality among all of its own software and from software written by non-Apple developers for the Mac. The only abberations I know of a from MS, or a specialty CAD programs, which still don't manage to make a gray box that blocks out the rest of the screen when used on the Mac.
  • Reply 27 of 46
    Quote:

    Originally posted by iDunno

    Umm... a_greer I posed my question to His Dudeness.



    iDunno




    I used to have a G3 Powerbook, but it reached the end of it's shelf life. I sold it and tried several places to finance a new 15.2" G4 Powerbook, but nobody would. So I really needed a new laptop and on a whim, I applied to Dell Financial and they gave me $1500 in less than 10 seconds. Believe me, I would rather go back to a Powerbook, but maybe one day I will have a new G5 Powerbook... wink wink nudge nudge...
  • Reply 28 of 46
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Quote:

    Groverat, whats your beef with Expose? I love it!



    I have no beef with it, I just don't find it particularly useful when I'm using either OS.



    Quote:

    And in regards to MS, they have the monopoly, so it is wrong stealing from a company that only has, what, 12% of the market? With Expose and such Apple would be able to swing users across to their platform, but now if Expose is available on windows.



    Ok, so it's wrong for MS to steal/borrow because they are a "monopoly", but it's acceptable for Apple to steal/borrow because they are not?





    Quote:

    Open up a total of 35 windows across 7 applications, and you tell me which system allows faster, less cluttered access between apps and data types.



    - I can't imagine why I would ever have to do that, I have used computers for ~15 years and have never run across anything even closely resembling what you just mentioned.

    - I would have 7 buttons on the taskbar which I could then click on and see the titles of the 5 windows.



    Quote:

    The taskbar does not, since many, many apps in windows utilize their own document managment taskbar.



    Mac apps do not?

    Safari.

    Next argument?



    Quote:

    Windows doesn't have the hiding ability.



    Well, system tray + hide icons button. But you've got something there. But then again, it doesn't answer my question, which is about the dock. Hiding apps was available long before Apple bought another company to get the Dock.



    Quote:

    Next, Mac apps don't tend to take command of the whole monitor.



    Again, I asked about the dock, but there's no stopping a fanboy on a roll.



    Quote:

    I have option-click bound to a mouse button.



    So I guess MS wins that one, eh?
  • Reply 29 of 46
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    - I can't imagine why I would ever have to do that, I have used computers for ~15 years and have never run across anything even closely resembling what you just mentioned.



    Heh. You should see my machine then. Lemme see... 12 applications, and, um... 47 windows. That's a pretty normal workflow for me.



    Quote:

    Well, system tray + hide icons button. But you've got something there. But then again, it doesn't answer my question, which is about the dock. Hiding apps was available long before Apple bought another company to get the Dock.



    Which company was that?
  • Reply 30 of 46
    tuttletuttle Posts: 301member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Heh. You should see my machine then. Lemme see... 12 applications, and, um... 47 windows. That's a pretty normal workflow for me.



    Yep, 13 apps and 45 windows right now.



    Expose has become as fundemental a part of my workflow as pointing, clicking, and dragging.
  • Reply 31 of 46
    idunnoidunno Posts: 645member
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by groverat

    [B]I have no beef with it, I just don't find it particularly useful when I'm using either OS.







    Ok, so it's wrong for MS to steal/borrow because they are a "monopoly", but it's acceptable for Apple to steal/borrow because they are not?



    Yeah, I knew it sounded stupid when I wrote that.







    Well, system tray + hide icons button. But you've got something there. But then again, it doesn't answer my question, which is about the dock. Hiding apps was available long before Apple bought another company to get the Dock.



    Do you mean Next? Which company did they buy to get the Dock?
  • Reply 32 of 46
    idunnoidunno Posts: 645member
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by iDunno

    [B]
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    I have no beef with it, I just don't find it particularly useful when I'm using either OS.







    >>>>Ok, so it's wrong for MS to steal/borrow because they are a >>>>"monopoly", but it's acceptable for Apple to steal/borrow because >>>>they are not?



    Yeah, I knew it sounded stupid when I wrote that.







    >>>>Well, system tray + hide icons button. But you've got something there. >>>>But then again, it doesn't answer my question, which is about the dock. >>>>Hiding apps was available long before Apple bought another company >>>>to get the Dock.



    Do you mean Next? Which company did they buy to get the Dock?




  • Reply 33 of 46
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    What the hell are you people doing on your computers?

    Past that, do you think that is anywhere near normal for 99% of computer users?







    Quote:

    Which company was that?



    Uh-oh, looks like we're going to have to get clever here. NeXT. Apple bought NeXT and lifted that idea to the replacement for their scrapped Rhapsody project.



    Come on, Kick, we've both been around for far too long, you know what I'm saying and you know I'm right.



    SHELF ME, BABY!
  • Reply 34 of 46
    Quote:

    Originally posted by groverat

    Again, I asked about the dock, but there's no stopping a fanboy on a roll.





    You don't need to answer me with such a condescending tone. The dock makes un-hiding apps much better than the drop down menu of yore. You should know this, but as far as I know you don't use a mac very frequently. I use both for very serious work, and in my computing history I often have 35 windows open across 7 (or more) apps.



    On the mac it's:

    Photoshop, FormZ, Electric Image, Safari, Mail, Text Edit (lots of notes), iTunes, Preview (Often more than 20 windows), Remote Desktop, Adium, Finder windows



    On the PC it's:

    Photoshop, FormZ, Electric Image, Firefox, Outlook, Notepad, iTunes, Adobe Reader, Remote Desktop, Explorer Windows, etc



    The other people I work with often have more windows open than I do. From time to time I also have to use Excel and Powerpoint. Generally speaking, they were awe-struck when I showed them the capabilities of the dock and expose.



    I could add that OS X's memory management system is much better for dishing out 2GB of RAM across a lot of heavy-hitting apps, but that's beside the point. The Dock makes it much quicker to access individual windows from one app to the next, and the lack of all-encompassing gray boxes helps me compare results from different source files, and switch between them. With windows, I have to either hunt-down the file by it's name in a severly cluttered taskbar, or I have to click on an app's taskbar item and scroll through another list of names. On the dock, I click on the app icon, the minimized windows appear in the dock, and I click on the one whose thumbnail is the one I want.



    Maybe I'm just weird, and have a hard time remembering which one of 20 cryptically named files I should be moving back to. No, I don't name many of these files.



    As for the mouse thing, support for multi-button mice is built into the API for Mac OS X. Having OEM one-button mice is good because it keeps GUI designers honest. I don't really care where the idea comes from, but if it works, I'm for it. The dock concept works, and the taskbar concept doesn't really.



    So, you can just avoid again the fact that I've done my research on both sides of the platform debate, and in all likelihood am part of the "power-user" minority that both sides try so hard to woo. (since we buy a lot of stuff, and often develop our own stuff as well). Alternatively, you can perhaps realize that just maybe my situation is entirely justified, and that it's something that you can hardly relate to, since in your own words you can't even fathom why anyone would need to have so many windows open at once.
  • Reply 35 of 46
    placeboplacebo Posts: 5,767member
    Final Cut, Safari, Proteus, Calculator, Stickies, Konfabulator, Word, iTunes, Textedit, Activity Monitor, and Finder right now.
  • Reply 36 of 46
    randycat99randycat99 Posts: 1,919member
    I got stickies, quicktime, pcalc, beholder, iChat, mail, safari (2 windows), appleworks (usually 1-2 docs), xfactor, activity monitor, and 2 finder windows as open windows right now. It's not to the point where I really need Expose to get around, but it does come in handy occasionally when I am just too tired to hunt something down via muscle memory- Expose is the silver bullet. I imagine it would easily be a godsend if my desktop load expanded from this point. It's a shweet component to OSX, for sure.
  • Reply 37 of 46
    idunnoidunno Posts: 645member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Randycat99

    safari (2 windows),



    Randycat, Tabbed browsing..... now that is a godsend.





    I can't believe there were versions of OSX before Panther that never had Expose, it makes me realise how much I rely on it now.
  • Reply 38 of 46
    randycat99randycat99 Posts: 1,919member
    Oh believe me, I make quite heavy use of tabbed browsing. That's 2 windows with 20 some odd webpages open on any given day. I think tabbed browsing makes a great analogy for what Expose allows one to do. On your own, you can handle x amount of clutter before it gets impractical. Everybody finds their own balance and eventually fine tunes their work habits to coincide within the capacity of the clutter. With tools like tabbed browsing and Expose, the threshold for clutter becomes much greater with only a trivial amount of extra effort (if any) to manage it. Basically, you can handle more stuff going on w/o losing your head. For some, this may not really be an issue as they don't tax their computer all that much in the first place (like my mum, who I've tried to get hooked on tabbed browsing, but she just doesn't "get it" or see what the benefit is to her experience). For others, it is like breaking free of chains. I think that things that can give you a sensation like this are a good sign that they can serve a crucial place in the OS or app (whatever the case may be).
  • Reply 39 of 46
    I actually have never been a fan of tabbed browsing. The onlu time i use it is when i have all my apple news sites open in tabs so they all load at the same time. (Apple Insider is first).



    Other than that, i don't use them becuase i end up closing everything.



    I use Expose (with the hot corners) ALL the time. I use it for even only two windows. Being from a PC background, i kiek all my windows large so i use expose to get between them.
  • Reply 40 of 46
    placeboplacebo Posts: 5,767member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by iDunno

    Randycat, Tabbed browsing..... now that is a godsend.



    I use tabbed browsing, and I still use more than one window, it's sometimes easier to have tabs of AI in one window, and news tabs in another.
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