Let's Debate: The Case FOR and AGAINST

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
I know there are alot of G5 threads here. But We haven't had one that encourages folks to post BOTH arguments for and against a MWSF release. Please don't just argue one side or the other:





For:



---Sources on The Register. These seem legit to me. Sorry if you disagree, but I think so. If a hoax, the timing is perfect. This source has been quoted numerous times and each time the claim is consistent.



---We know the G4 needs an upgrade/update. The thing has been around for two years...well two and a half in January. Time to change!



---Steve Jobs has said that the MHZ gap would be closed by the end of the year. January 7th is close enough for me...even it is 1.6GHZ.



--Timetable for release of PPC G5 on geek.com. It shows a Q1 release of the G5. Now, unless this is totally bogus, that is some hard evidence.



---The amount of rumor out there. Some even speculated that it would be released at MWNY 2001.



---The fact that neither Apple or MOT has denied the rumors. These rampant rumors MUST be cutting into G4 sales hugely. It was on CNN for Pete's sake. How could they NOT deny rumors of this magnitude. It would set us up for a massive letdown at MW and cut into current sales as well. Just like Apple said "no new hardware at Seybold"....they probably would have done so this time in my judgement. They could at least say "no G5".



--MOT's own PPC roadmap shows, albeit vaguely that a G5 is, in fact a possibility at this time.



---The sudden length and date change of the keynote. This announcement happened EXACTLY when the rumored first production run of PM G5's was supposed to be taking place.



---Sources here on AI that are virtually certain of its release. These sources/posters haven't messed with us before (i.e applenut, dorsal etc), at least not seriously.



--Dorsal now believes that his superiors may be woring on G5 testers.



--The VueScan thing.



--We know Apple has gotten more involved and it is reasonable to assume Steve has DEMANDEd faster chips.





Against:



---MOT just announced the Apollo. Will they (Apple) really just ship it in the iMac and PB?



---The slow upgrade cycle of chip performance leaves doubt about the possibility or likelihood of a 800MHZ speed increase in 6 months.



---No actual public demo/announcement of the G5, as with the G4.



---Apple just changed the PM case. Will they completely redo it six months later? Will they abandon the G4 six months after the G4+ release?



---Some sites sugesting "no G5". The most notable are ATAT and ThinkSecret. ATAT has a tremendous track record.



Anybody else care to add? Please, let us stay away from the "it ain't gonna happen, accept it" posts. Let's all make a case for and against.



I think the case FOR is much stronger. I know much of that column is coincidence and rumor. I know that any one of these things is not enough to sway opinion, but take ALL of them? Just too many coincidences here. It has to be coming....



I say G5. G4 Apollo's in iMac and PB.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 41
    I am currently against it for two reasons:



    1) As the Apple Turns says it's not coming out

    2) I want to think nothing great is coming out and be surprised when Macworld arrives.
  • Reply 2 of 41
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,000member
    [quote]Originally posted by MacAgent:

    <strong>I am currently against it for two reasons:



    1) As the Apple Turns says it's not coming out

    2) I want to think nothing great is coming out and be surprised when Macworld arrives.</strong><hr></blockquote>





    But if you had to make a case FOR what would it be?
  • Reply 3 of 41
    Oh, right.



    1) The Register.

    2) There were rumors 8 months ago that it would be out sometime from September 2001 to January 2002.

    3) It's been 3(?) years since the G4 was released - time for a change.
  • Reply 4 of 41
    SDW,



    You listed most of the main points on both sides. Here's a couple other things I'm thinking.



    I think a case could be strengthened based on another recent ATAT report - that the OSX default would occur at MWSF. If that's true, then I would hope that all of Apple's hardware could run OSX really well and not just adequately. So that would mean G4s in the new iMac, and while I could see the new iMac with the current G4 and PowerMacs with the Apollo G4, Apple might want to retain the processor distinction between the pro and consumer line, and thus bump the PM to the G5.

    OTOH, Apollo might be so much better than the current G4 that the distinction would remain even with both chips called G4.



    Another case against is the announcement of the revolutionary consumer product. Would Apple want to unveil such a product as well as the G5? Assuming the new iMac is not the revolutionary product, that's three major new products...seems like too much to reasonably expect.
  • Reply 5 of 41
    They also pushed the keynote up to 2.5 hours, that's a long time. And Steve usually goes past the limit too...hmm...



    :cool:
  • Reply 6 of 41
    matsumatsu Posts: 6,558member
    [quote]Originally posted by MacAgent:

    <strong>I am currently against it for two reasons:



    1) As the Apple Turns says it's not coming out

    2) I want to think nothing great is coming out and be surprised when Macworld arrives.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Are you not then already thinking that something great is coming? You don't want to think it, or you don't want to admitt to yourself that secretly you're thinking it, but you've clearly had the thought. You hope in spite of yourself, and one does not hope without reason -- even when the reason is a self created rationale. Isn't this a bit like telling one's self to expect the worst 'just in case'? Does that ever make the worst less painful? Why are you even acting like it's going to potentially be painful? It's just computers, whatever happens, you'll live.
  • Reply 7 of 41
    Note the keynote is only 2 hours.
  • Reply 8 of 41
    [quote]Originally posted by MacAgent:

    <strong>

    3) It's been 3(?) years since the G4 was released - time for a change.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Seybold 1999 they were announced. I ordered mine the next day and it arrived sometime in the Fall (I think around October). So it won't be 3 years until next Fall. I know..it feels like a lot longer!



    For:

    - everything listed above so far. I actually don't think its coming.



    Against:

    - I want a new machine so badly. I want to burn DVDs, have gigabit ethernet and have an LCD with a great video card. My G4 450 is very limited in that regard. So I say its not coming because God hates me and will make me wait even longer

  • Reply 9 of 41
    marcukmarcuk Posts: 4,442member
    For. G5



    There is no reason for Apple to design a new case, Quicksilver is the best case in the industry, G5's are reportedly expensive, so Apple saves by using existing case



    Moto have announced Apollo, so what? Apollo has been known for at least a year, It also dampens the expectations of the G5, so that we get an even bigger suprise? Apollo=imacs & PBooks (and Pmacs if there is no G5)



    Every roadmap, rumour Ive seen over the last year says G5 in Q1 2002. Well that could incluse MWSF if Moto gets their shit together.



    Apple says revolutionary product at MWSF, could be imac2 or G5?



    Apple says Mhz parity by end of year? Jan7 is only a week late.



    Against

    -------



    Two words. 'Apple, Motorola'

    not necessarily in that order.
  • Reply 10 of 41
    icomicom Posts: 41member
    Like I posted in the thread "G5 the truth"



    I'm getting confused by al this, Ingram has 80 PM in stock of the low end model, 50 on order, but they won't ship until feb 7th, 2002 .



    That's late if you ask me, if the new PM would be anounced at MWSF, they would be available imediatly...in this case it's a month later ?



    what could it mean ?
  • Reply 11 of 41
    icomicom Posts: 41member
    oh.. forgot this detail, they cut down the price for resellers for the low end model, my gues to clear the channel and there warehouse .
  • Reply 12 of 41
    Reliable contributor in another forum dropped these tantalizing nuggets today:





    Hi y'all! Nope, I'm not really back, just adding a tidbit for you to chew on. Apple is busy either producing 1G G4's now, or they will be very soon - hopefully to fill the channel before the MacWorld speed bump announcement.



    Now, about the iMac. The current crop is being offered to employees (Apple internal EPP sale) at a significantly reduced price - smells like an iMac warehouse clearance to me! And, there is a big hubbub about the new product. Whatever it is, details are being kept just as quiet inside Apple as outside - only a select privileged few are "in the know." I may be able to get some hints over the next week or so - but don't get your hopes up. Rumor is that it's not an iMac, and jokes are circulating that maybe Apple will be the CM (contract mfr) for the X-Box. Ha!
  • Reply 13 of 41
    applenutapplenut Posts: 5,768member
    [quote]There is no reason for Apple to design a new case, Quicksilver is the best case in the industry, G5's are reportedly expensive, so Apple saves by using existing case<hr></blockquote>



    just love the confidence you have in Apple's design team.
  • Reply 14 of 41
    kidredkidred Posts: 2,402member
    For-



    3D market. High End video editing and other markets that need more than a dual 800.



    G5 would mean DDR and faster bus and from what I've been reading the memory problem has been hurting Apple for a while. I think the DDR alone will make a nice difference.



    It's been almost 3 years with the G4, it's life cycle is over and needs to be rev-ed. The QS case was more of a modify then an overhaul and I've seen a lot of people complain about lack of eject button, so I think a new case is in order.



    This is the cross roads, computers are starting to even out, not everyone is in a rush to get the latest computer and the mhz isn't as important as it once was IMO. I think now if comes down to value and compatibilty. XP didn't sell that well and the slow down is still here as for new sales, I think this is the perfect time for Apple to catch up while demad is slow.



    Moto is about to tank or get bought out and who knows what will happen then. Can anyone say honestly that Moto will be doing our chips in 6 months?



    USB 2, Gigawire, new technologies that won't go into existing G4s because they would be better served going into the next new tower.



    The G5 rumors have been out for more than a year, I think that's adequate time to make it reality.



    Rumors, rumors, rumors, and conflicting reports leading to more rumors.



    MWNY '00. I don't think Apple wants another show like that.



    The moved up keynote.



    The hype behind the keynote.



    The ghz barrier will be broken line by Jobs.



    My faith





    Against-



    Moto's incompitence, or flat out inability to get it to market.



    Apple wanting to juice the G4.



    Time frame, maybe there just hasn't been enough time to get it to market.





    Um, the naysayers? Not sure about many more aregurments against?
  • Reply 15 of 41
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,000member
    KidRed writes....



    [quote]....Moto is about to tank or get bought out and who knows what will happen then. Can anyone say honestly that Moto will be doing our chips in 6 months?... <hr></blockquote>



    ummm, no. MOT is losing money like everyone else. No one is going to buy them out. MOT is, overall, an unbelievably successful company. They had been profitable EVERY year for the last like 15 years without fail. These are their first losses in a long, long time. They will come back....though they still piss me off.
  • Reply 16 of 41
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,000member
    [quote]Originally posted by iCom:

    <strong>Like I posted in the thread "G5 the truth"



    I'm getting confused by al this, Ingram has 80 PM in stock of the low end model, 50 on order, but they won't ship until feb 7th, 2002 .



    That's late if you ask me, if the new PM would be anounced at MWSF, they would be available imediatly...in this case it's a month later ?



    what could it mean ?</strong><hr></blockquote>



    This is another G5 "yes" piece of evidence.
  • Reply 17 of 41
    ptrashptrash Posts: 296member
    Amrose Chapel: Apple might want to retain the processor distinction between the pro and consumer line, and thus bump the PM to the G5.



    Remember the Pentium Pro. And then there's Pentium Xeon, and celeron. I'm sure some marketing genius could figure out some new names to help consumers make the distinctin between Apollos and 7450s.
  • Reply 18 of 41
    The G5 seems like a very likely introduction for MWSF. I think it will be here because of the longer keynote and total Apple secrecy LOCKDOWN.
  • Reply 19 of 41
    [quote]

    For:



    ---Sources on The Register. These seem legit to me. Sorry if you disagree, but I think so. If a hoax, the timing is perfect. This source has been quoted numerous times and each time the claim is consistent.<hr></blockquote>



    yep.



    [quote]---We know the G4 needs an upgrade/update. The thing has been around for two years...well two and a half in January. Time to change!<hr></blockquote>



    Well it was time to change back when we were at 500 MHz for 18 months. Doesn't have any bearing on what Moto does.





    [quote]---Steve Jobs has said that the MHZ gap would be closed by the end of the year. January 7th is close enough for me...even it is 1.6GHZ.<hr></blockquote>



    I wondered about this myself. He SAID Apple would close the MHz gap, but the gap hasn't really changed at all! Yeah, the G4s got a speedbump, but wintels just pulled ahead even farther. The gap is growing, not closing.



    Jobs must have some reason to have said that, and I don't think he's flat-out lying.



    [quote]--Timetable for release of PPC G5 on geek.com. It shows a Q1 release of the G5. Now, unless this is totally bogus, that is some hard evidence.<hr></blockquote>



    Yep.



    [quote]---The amount of rumor out there. Some even speculated that it would be released at MWNY 2001.<hr></blockquote>



    Positive feedback loop...doesn't mean a thing.



    [quote]---The fact that neither Apple or MOT has denied the rumors. These rampant rumors MUST be cutting into G4 sales hugely. It was on CNN for Pete's sake. How could they NOT deny rumors of this magnitude. It would set us up for a massive letdown at MW and cut into current sales as well. Just like Apple said "no new hardware at Seybold"....they probably would have done so this time in my judgement. They could at least say "no G5".<hr></blockquote>



    Seems like it would be in their interest to deny it. Although Moto came darn close to denying it. I'd say signs point to a Moto denial, but it was a guarded denial, like in "maybe we'll get them ready, but probably not, so we can't deny it".



    [quote]--MOT's own PPC roadmap shows, albeit vaguely that a G5 is, in fact a possibility at this time.<hr></blockquote>



    That roadmap isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It's not even printed on paper! If it were I'd wipe my ass with it. That's what I think of Motorola.



    [quote]---The sudden length and date change of the keynote. This announcement happened EXACTLY when the rumored first production run of PM G5's was supposed to be taking place.<hr></blockquote>



    Or maybe it's so that Jobs' keynote competes with Gates' better.



    [quote]---Sources here on AI that are virtually certain of its release. These sources/posters haven't messed with us before (i.e applenut, dorsal etc), at least not seriously.<hr></blockquote>



    Teenagers whose connections are huffing whippits while masturbating. Whatever.



    [quote]--Dorsal now believes that his superiors may be woring on G5 testers.<hr></blockquote>



    They're WORING on the G5 testers! OMFG! How rude! I hate when people Wore on me!



    [quote]--The VueScan thing.<hr></blockquote>



    Some guy with a grudge.



    [quote]--We know Apple has gotten more involved and it is reasonable to assume Steve has DEMANDEd faster chips.<hr></blockquote>



    Steve always demands faster chips. I'm sure he demanded faster chips when the G4 was stagnating at 500 MHz for 10 years.





    Against:



    [quote]---MOT just announced the Apollo. Will they (Apple) really just ship it in the iMac and PB?<hr></blockquote>



    Maybe. The original iMac shared the G3 with the smurf towers. If the G5 arrives, then a G4 iMac wouldn't even be trampling on the Powermac's territory. In fact, it would look odd to have a G3 iMac, and a G5 powermac. Customer walks in, "iMac's too tiny, Powermacs too much. I want a G4!". "sorry sir, but Apple doesn't make any desktop G4s, they are only for laptops". Yeah right.



    [quote]---The slow upgrade cycle of chip performance leaves doubt about the possibility or likelihood of a 800MHZ speed increase in 6 months.<hr></blockquote>



    Yeah, but Apple could spread it out, like 867, 1 GHz, 1.2, 1.4, 1.6. Five powermacs. Or they could keep the G4 powermacs, and have G5 powermacs priced even HIGHER. This would be just like the Apple we know and love.



    [quote]---No actual public demo/announcement of the G5, as with the G4.<hr></blockquote>



    Loose lips sink ships!





    [quote]---Apple just changed the PM case. Will they completely redo it six months later? Will they abandon the G4 six months after the G4+ release?<hr></blockquote>



    The G4 didn't get a new case! All Apple did was repaint the smurf case...so no, the case is meaningless.



    [quote]---Some sites sugesting "no G5". The most notable are ATAT and ThinkSecret. ATAT has a tremendous track record.<hr></blockquote>



    C'mon, would you trust a website inspired by a soap opera?
  • Reply 20 of 41
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,000member
    JD writes:

    [quote]That roadmap isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It's not even printed on paper! If it were I'd wipe my ass with it. That's what I think of Motorola. <hr></blockquote>



    LOL. Agreed.



    [quote] Yeah, but Apple could spread it out, like 867, 1 GHz, 1.2, 1.4, 1.6. Five powermacs. Or they could keep the G4 powermacs, and have G5 powermacs priced even HIGHER. This would be just like the Apple we know and love. <hr></blockquote>



    Agreed again. Sad, but true. G5's @ 4999. ugghhh.



    [quote] C'mon, would you trust a website inspired by a soap opera? <hr></blockquote>



    I don't think I would trust ANY website for the most part. Maybe Apple, that is about it.
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