<strong>I guess we will not see a major update for the iBook line until the PowerBook gets a 970 CPU. After that the iBook may spot a G4 (1Ghz +).
But I believe an other scenario will happen in which the iBook line vanishes from Apple's portfolio completely. If the new 12" PowerBook drops to a sub $1K price tag (next year at the earliest), there is no need for an iBook anymore.
i don't think you really understand what the PPC970 actually is and eventually, if they could lower the power consumption and heat to put it in a powerbook the size of the 12", which year we'll life in: the end of 2004/ begin of 2005 at the best. i think that is pretty fast. but not fast enough to justify no update for the ibook till that date at all.
this is the year of the portable. so at least they will update the ibook and probably give it some new looks in april/may or at least at mwny 2003.
and no they won't make the 12" powerbook sub $1K ever. they'll shoot themselves in the foot:
powerbook=high end/ high marchines.
ibook= low end/ not so high marchines, but higher volumes
maybe apple will even differenciate the market in 2003 with a 3rd portable line.
[quote]<strong>The iBook is the cheapest mac right now (ignoring the classic iMac) and even though the margins are low right now it could go lower a year from now. The G4 iBook IS the PalmZilla and the price of that will go down into the iBook area a year from now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Margins are still at least 15% on the low end and even more on the 14 inch models. Trust me, they're making a lot of money still on those ibooks. Look at the Apple Student Developer prices. $850 for the low end ibook and they have to be still making a profit.
I payed more than $8000 for my Mac Quadra 900 some years ago. Prices will always go down to a point which you thought would never be possible.</strong><hr></blockquote>
ah, the $399,- dollar question...
since januari 2000 pro hardware didn't get much cheaper.
the difference in pricing between januari 1998 and januari 2000 is much, much bigger. apple keeps his pricings in proffesional line relativelly stable for the past 3 years
but indeed the ibook is cheaper than i ever thought possible.
<strong>Many here have speculated on a 12" 1 GHz G3 iBook at some point. Can this co-exist along side the 12" 867 G4 Powerbook?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think it would be awkward if the iBook broke the Ghz barrier before the 12" PowerBook did. But remember, iBooks that clock faster than PowerBooks would be nothing new. The iBook/466 (P1) outclocked the low-end PowerBook/400 (Pismo) for several months, and that was with the same G3 processor. I do think that Apple would be more hesitant now that the Ghz barrier is at play.
Slot loading ****ing sucks. Because of ****ing slot loaders I can't use all the 3" CDs I burned, when i get my 12" PowerBook. Apple Slot Loading is stupid. Just like AAUI and ADB and ADC. A stupid little feature. Unless they can implement a way to use mini CDs slot loading drives suck.
<strong>Think about the target audience of the iBook for a second: Value conscious buyers. Similarly priced wintelon notebooks invariably ship with a 14 or 15" rather than 12. To these buyers a larger screen represents a better spec and a more compelling value. Yes yes, some of us favor a smaller form factor, but that isn't the iBook's intended market. If they were priced the same (12 and 14) the 14 would easily outsell the 12, even some of you who claim to like the smaller size so much would opt for the 14 instead.
Subnotes cost. Want one, Apple will sell you a PB12. Not to worry, the 14 will get smaller and lighter than the current version, and while it won't be quite as small or as light as the iBook12, it will be close enough that no one that matters is going to care.
At 999, a 14" screen is a bonus. These customers are looking for a one size fits all notebook, they don't want to plug in external monitors (that they can't span anyway (at least not out of the box) and they won't mind an extra half pound or inch of footprint.</strong><hr></blockquote>
fvck matsu, i dont have time to explain how you embarass yourself by trying to paint everyone with your brush.
ive had it. kitchens closed. so long AI and good riddance to the rant.
What about a clear ibook case and internal lighting like the patent Apple has applied for? This would wow the consumer set and what teenager could resist a strobing light show on their portable?
I doubt if it would even be that expensive for Apple to implement.
the one unfortunate similarity in the 12" miniPB and the iBooks is the soldering of a measly 128Mb RAM to the mobo
until the miniPB gets 256Mb soldered, the iBook will continue to max out at 640Mb RAM.
RAM will also continue to differentiate consumer from pro models
but the "moodBook" of colour-changing case might be a nice consumer touch... would sell more in japan and to women... goth geeks would probably prefer a black mac (old NeXT fans, too)
the only other case change i'd expect would be a tougher polycarbonate (iBooks attract scratches like kids attract dirt). SJ appeared to be listening to the beefs about Ti-paint chipping and the requests for anodized case that were common on many boards, so maybe the durability and perceived finish issues will bring us a more robust iBook
minor hinge changes would also seem likely given the mod to the lapzilla isn't just to support the wider screen
SJ reminded us during the Keynote that the existing iBook was the "gold standard" of Airport reception which the new PBs were set against, so while new antennae might be pending, it is possible that iBooks are already at maximum signal strength. purely as a function of manufacturing streamlining, all 12" screens might get the PB layout for antennae, but such a change doesn't seem strictly necessary (read: added cost not needed)
screens should continue to get cheaper now that volume has increased (12"PB), so a price drop due to economies of scale is reasonable.
all machines continue to max at 640Mb RAM (no DDR)
fvck matsu, i dont have time to explain how you embarass yourself by trying to paint everyone with your brush.
ive had it. kitchens closed. so long AI and good riddance to the rant.
(hmmm theres no smiley...)</strong><hr></blockquote>
You act like I bent your wookie for you. Naturally, I didn't mean all of it, I think iBook customers would like to span displays, but I also think the overwhelming majority of customers in the iBooks target range prefer larger displays. If they aren't buying them now, it's because the price premium doesn't warrant it. Mac users have a way of convincing themselves that something is "good enough" In the case of the 12 that's easy to do because what you lose in screen size is mitigated by a more compact form factor. You actually gain something if portability is your primary concern.
However, you only need to look around a college campus to see that ultra portability is NOT a primary concern of students -- recall the size of the original iBook, aimed squarely at students. Really now, if Apple gave you a 14" iBook that was about a half pound heavier than the 12 and only a half inch wider/deeper, while probably being a touch thinner, would you care or notice the extra weight in your knap-sack. Of course you wouldn't, but you would notice the 14" screen every time you look at it. The iBook is not a road warriors machine, it just sorta became one by accident, a very good one, but one that's unlikely to survive the drive for switchers. It only hurts 'cause I'm right.
However, you only need to look around a college campus to see that ultra portability is NOT a primary concern of students -- recall the size of the original iBook, aimed squarely at students. </strong><hr></blockquote>
As a recent college student myself, I have to admit that my own point of view on the issue differs, as do those of two other laptop owners who I've discussed the issue with. I carry around so many books that dragging around a laptop can become practically impossible. The only reason that we do it anyway is that the benefit of having a laptop in class or the library makes it worth breaking your back, but if I could buy a tiny cheap Mac laptop for word processing, e-mail, a quick online scan of the news or a class website, and maybe a scientific calculator app, I would. I've seen some REALLY tiny Windows laptops that would be just the thing, even smaller than 12 inches. Maybe with some sort of clever unfoldeable keyboard stuffed into a tiny space in a way that only Apple could do?
most students I see on campus have laptops... yes... BUT aside from like 1 other person (Hi Mike) I havent seen ANYONE take their laptops out of their room (sometimes in the hall or lounge, but never outside)... this is mainly because most people just use their comp for the internet (heh gotta love airport)... they want laptops so they can close it up and use the deskspace if they want w/o a hassle...
the size and weight dont matter that much to most college students...cost on the other hand.....
<strong>I havent seen ANYONE take their laptops out of their room</strong><hr></blockquote>
So students don't use their laptops to take notes in class? When I was in college in the mid-90's, many students had laptops and used them at the library. But nobody used them in class. Now that I'm in law school, however, a clear majority of students bring their laptops to take notes in class.
The wealthier students (older with work experience, or rich parents) have subnotebooks. Most students, however, have the brick laptops because that's all they can afford. Finally, there's been a noticeable increase in Mac laptops with the release of the iBook (Dual USB). There are probably a dozen of them around, and I suspect it's because they are a good deal, not because the students are Mac zealots.
So overall, I don't care whether the iBook retains the 12" option or moves on to an all 14" lineup. The only thing that really matters is that Apple keep up the tremendous value of the iBooks.
So students don't use their laptops to take notes in class? When I was in college in the mid-90's, many students had laptops and used them at the library. But nobody used them in class. Now that I'm in law school, however, a clear majority of students bring their laptops to take notes in class. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, maybe they're taking notes and maybe they're "taking notes..." The University here is waking up to an epidemic of students chatting and playing video games during lecture.
That might influence Apple's direction as far as offering machines for classroom use - which means the iBook, too.
People brought their laptops to class in my school and I only just graduated. Admittedly, I can imagine that there might not be much use for them in certain fields. Certainly I never saw a musical theater major carrying them around, but they were INCREDIBLY helpful in classes where the prof talked too fast. The major tradeoff was that you had to keep a pad of paper on the floor to scribble diagrams. Also, it was useless to even try using it in certain classes, even if the prof did talk too fast, such as in my organic chem classes, for example, since everything was a diagram.
In the library, it was very useful to have a laptop, since you could go back and forth between the paper you were writing and the stacks. They had laptops available to rent in the library, but obviously there are serious advantages to having your own laptop with you, as you have access to your entire hard drive full of notes and previous writings.
Would be nice, but it ain't gonna happen. Next iBook redesign will be 14" XGA on all models, but it'll be smaller than the current 14 and a little bigger than the current 12. Same prices or slightly cheaper, still G3, still polycarbonate on magnesium construction
You don't know how eerie it was that you just mentioned magnesium alloy construction. I was about to get up and leave when I saw my Nikon Coolpix 950 sitting by my Pismo, and then I thought of the F100 --- same magnesium construction. If Apple were to put this into the iBook -- offer a black magnesium alloy body with rubber gripping surfaces -- thousands of photogs would run to it -- they know the strength of Nikon bodies, and a laptop with it, well that takes the cake.
But to make sure, has Apple used magnesium alloy before with their laptops?
Comments
<strong>I guess we will not see a major update for the iBook line until the PowerBook gets a 970 CPU. After that the iBook may spot a G4 (1Ghz +).
But I believe an other scenario will happen in which the iBook line vanishes from Apple's portfolio completely. If the new 12" PowerBook drops to a sub $1K price tag (next year at the earliest), there is no need for an iBook anymore.
[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: Quick ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
i don't think you really understand what the PPC970 actually is and eventually, if they could lower the power consumption and heat to put it in a powerbook the size of the 12", which year we'll life in: the end of 2004/ begin of 2005 at the best. i think that is pretty fast. but not fast enough to justify no update for the ibook till that date at all.
this is the year of the portable. so at least they will update the ibook and probably give it some new looks in april/may or at least at mwny 2003.
and no they won't make the 12" powerbook sub $1K ever. they'll shoot themselves in the foot:
powerbook=high end/ high marchines.
ibook= low end/ not so high marchines, but higher volumes
maybe apple will even differenciate the market in 2003 with a 3rd portable line.
<strong>
... but not fast enough to justify no update for the ibook till that date at all.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I didn't say NO update. I said no MAJOR update.
[quote]Originally posted by gar:
<strong>
... and no they won't make the 12" powerbook sub $1K ever. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I payed more than $8000 for my Mac Quadra 900 some years ago. Prices will always go down to a point which you thought would never be possible.
Margins are still at least 15% on the low end and even more on the 14 inch models. Trust me, they're making a lot of money still on those ibooks. Look at the Apple Student Developer prices. $850 for the low end ibook and they have to be still making a profit.
<strong>
I payed more than $8000 for my Mac Quadra 900 some years ago. Prices will always go down to a point which you thought would never be possible.</strong><hr></blockquote>
ah, the $399,- dollar question...
since januari 2000 pro hardware didn't get much cheaper.
the difference in pricing between januari 1998 and januari 2000 is much, much bigger. apple keeps his pricings in proffesional line relativelly stable for the past 3 years
but indeed the ibook is cheaper than i ever thought possible.
<strong>Many here have speculated on a 12" 1 GHz G3 iBook at some point. Can this co-exist along side the 12" 867 G4 Powerbook?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think it would be awkward if the iBook broke the Ghz barrier before the 12" PowerBook did. But remember, iBooks that clock faster than PowerBooks would be nothing new. The iBook/466 (P1) outclocked the low-end PowerBook/400 (Pismo) for several months, and that was with the same G3 processor. I do think that Apple would be more hesitant now that the Ghz barrier is at play.
Escher
<strong>Think about the target audience of the iBook for a second: Value conscious buyers. Similarly priced wintelon notebooks invariably ship with a 14 or 15" rather than 12. To these buyers a larger screen represents a better spec and a more compelling value. Yes yes, some of us favor a smaller form factor, but that isn't the iBook's intended market. If they were priced the same (12 and 14) the 14 would easily outsell the 12, even some of you who claim to like the smaller size so much would opt for the 14 instead.
Subnotes cost. Want one, Apple will sell you a PB12. Not to worry, the 14 will get smaller and lighter than the current version, and while it won't be quite as small or as light as the iBook12, it will be close enough that no one that matters is going to care.
At 999, a 14" screen is a bonus. These customers are looking for a one size fits all notebook, they don't want to plug in external monitors (that they can't span anyway (at least not out of the box) and they won't mind an extra half pound or inch of footprint.</strong><hr></blockquote>
fvck matsu, i dont have time to explain how you embarass yourself by trying to paint everyone with your brush.
ive had it. kitchens closed. so long AI and good riddance to the rant.
(hmmm theres no
I doubt if it would even be that expensive for Apple to implement.
...
until the miniPB gets 256Mb soldered, the iBook will continue to max out at 640Mb RAM.
RAM will also continue to differentiate consumer from pro models
but the "moodBook" of colour-changing case might be a nice consumer touch... would sell more in japan and to women... goth geeks would probably prefer a black mac (old NeXT fans, too)
the only other case change i'd expect would be a tougher polycarbonate (iBooks attract scratches like kids attract dirt). SJ appeared to be listening to the beefs about Ti-paint chipping and the requests for anodized case that were common on many boards, so maybe the durability and perceived finish issues will bring us a more robust iBook
minor hinge changes would also seem likely given the mod to the lapzilla isn't just to support the wider screen
SJ reminded us during the Keynote that the existing iBook was the "gold standard" of Airport reception which the new PBs were set against, so while new antennae might be pending, it is possible that iBooks are already at maximum signal strength. purely as a function of manufacturing streamlining, all 12" screens might get the PB layout for antennae, but such a change doesn't seem strictly necessary (read: added cost not needed)
screens should continue to get cheaper now that volume has increased (12"PB), so a price drop due to economies of scale is reasonable.
all machines continue to max at 640Mb RAM (no DDR)
low end
USD $899
800MHz G3
16Mb VRAM ATI Radeon
optional CD-ROM (education) / CD-RW / Combo drive (tray load)
All ports unchanged (still FW400)
Optional Bluetooth/Airport Extreme
12" screen (marginally thinner case)
medium
USD $1099
867MHz G3
32Mb VRAM ATI Radeon or 9000
CD-RW / Combo drive (slot load)
All ports unchanged (still FW400)
Bluetooth built in
Airport Extreme optional
12" screen (marginally thinner case)
high
USD $1399
933MHz G3 (faster system bus too)
64Mb VRAM ATI 9000 or (unlikely... crowds 12"PB) nVidia Go420
CD-RW / Combo drive (slot load)
All ports unchanged (still FW400)
Built-in Bluetooth/Airport Extreme
12" or 14" screen (marginally thinner case)
software bundle includes AppleWorks 7 for iBooks but not PB
impressive enough to deserve "Year of the Portable" press... easy to dominate with new 15.4" WideScreen PB in April
my .035 Cdn
<strong>
fvck matsu, i dont have time to explain how you embarass yourself by trying to paint everyone with your brush.
ive had it. kitchens closed. so long AI and good riddance to the rant.
(hmmm theres no
You act like I bent your wookie for you. Naturally, I didn't mean all of it, I think iBook customers would like to span displays, but I also think the overwhelming majority of customers in the iBooks target range prefer larger displays. If they aren't buying them now, it's because the price premium doesn't warrant it. Mac users have a way of convincing themselves that something is "good enough" In the case of the 12 that's easy to do because what you lose in screen size is mitigated by a more compact form factor. You actually gain something if portability is your primary concern.
However, you only need to look around a college campus to see that ultra portability is NOT a primary concern of students -- recall the size of the original iBook, aimed squarely at students. Really now, if Apple gave you a 14" iBook that was about a half pound heavier than the 12 and only a half inch wider/deeper, while probably being a touch thinner, would you care or notice the extra weight in your knap-sack. Of course you wouldn't, but you would notice the 14" screen every time you look at it. The iBook is not a road warriors machine, it just sorta became one by accident, a very good one, but one that's unlikely to survive the drive for switchers. It only hurts 'cause I'm right.
<strong>
However, you only need to look around a college campus to see that ultra portability is NOT a primary concern of students -- recall the size of the original iBook, aimed squarely at students. </strong><hr></blockquote>
As a recent college student myself, I have to admit that my own point of view on the issue differs, as do those of two other laptop owners who I've discussed the issue with. I carry around so many books that dragging around a laptop can become practically impossible. The only reason that we do it anyway is that the benefit of having a laptop in class or the library makes it worth breaking your back, but if I could buy a tiny cheap Mac laptop for word processing, e-mail, a quick online scan of the news or a class website, and maybe a scientific calculator app, I would. I've seen some REALLY tiny Windows laptops that would be just the thing, even smaller than 12 inches. Maybe with some sort of clever unfoldeable keyboard stuffed into a tiny space in a way that only Apple could do?
the size and weight dont matter that much to most college students...cost on the other hand.....
<strong>I havent seen ANYONE take their laptops out of their room</strong><hr></blockquote>
So students don't use their laptops to take notes in class? When I was in college in the mid-90's, many students had laptops and used them at the library. But nobody used them in class. Now that I'm in law school, however, a clear majority of students bring their laptops to take notes in class.
The wealthier students (older with work experience, or rich parents) have subnotebooks. Most students, however, have the brick laptops because that's all they can afford. Finally, there's been a noticeable increase in Mac laptops with the release of the iBook (Dual USB). There are probably a dozen of them around, and I suspect it's because they are a good deal, not because the students are Mac zealots.
So overall, I don't care whether the iBook retains the 12" option or moves on to an all 14" lineup. The only thing that really matters is that Apple keep up the tremendous value of the iBooks.
Escher
[ 01-23-2003: Message edited by: Escher ]</p>
<strong>
So students don't use their laptops to take notes in class? When I was in college in the mid-90's, many students had laptops and used them at the library. But nobody used them in class. Now that I'm in law school, however, a clear majority of students bring their laptops to take notes in class. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, maybe they're taking notes and maybe they're "taking notes..."
That might influence Apple's direction as far as offering machines for classroom use - which means the iBook, too.
[ 01-23-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
In the library, it was very useful to have a laptop, since you could go back and forth between the paper you were writing and the stacks. They had laptops available to rent in the library, but obviously there are serious advantages to having your own laptop with you, as you have access to your entire hard drive full of notes and previous writings.
1152 x 864 pixel or something.
But to make sure, has Apple used magnesium alloy before with their laptops?