"Amorph, the laptop is interesting as an AIO, acceptable even at a higher price, because it travels, iMacs don't."
They do have that advantage, although some so-called portables are hardly more luggable than the iMac is.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
A laptop as an AIO? Only if you want to end up like Gollum! The ergonomics of a laptop are horrid and doing serious work on them without an add-on keyboard and seperate display is just about the most uncomfortable experience I've ever had. Adding an external display means its not AIO and there is also a substantial price hit due to the need to make everything as small, light, low power and cool as possible. The AIO isn't the end all and be all of computing, but it is a legitimate market segment, and one Apple has a long history of being successful with.
ACtually, I concur that the Cube failed b/c it was god-damned expensive.
How many powermac owners do you know who have a use for their 4 PCI slots? I don't know any. If I bought a Power Mac today, I'd max the ram, MAYBE buy a second hard drive and that's it.
So having this huge fookin desktop makes no sense. Especially when you are paying for all that empty PCI real estate.
A cube-like design is bound to return, perhaps when the PPC970 emerges. A tight, high end system packed into a form-factor equal to or smaller than a Cube, 2 ram slots (2GB), a screaming bus, DVI-out and ports on the front is all I'll ever need.
All in ones are nice, but expensive and that lovely 17" display gets thrown out with the bathwater when the iMac needs replacing due to anemic specs.
I believe the i-line of Macs may be on its way out look at the Powerbook line, and perhaps we will see something similar happen to Powermacs. Super highend: dual or Quad processors, 4 PCI slots, etc. Lowend: Single processor, no PCI slots, or maybe one, single harddrive.
Would you really still buy an imac, instead of a much more affordable machine with a plethora (CRT, LCD) of monitors to choose from? I doubt it.
edit: PS, Apple, for god's sake, put a fan in there, just make it a COMPLETELY SILENT one, OK? It can be done.
On topic I agree with programmer. The appeal of an AIO is it is largely a Laptop with much nicer ergonomics for use. The appeal of a portable is it is to state the obvious, portable.
The area I feel a lot of companies fall down is cheap desktops. The cube was good in this respect (had it been priced properly) as if you were to look at the most upgraded parts they'd be video card and RAM. Cut PCI slots down and a few of the other extras and try to slot something between AIO and tower. Frankly I don't care about noise but Apple needs something that provides a single processor, which is headless and can have its video card replaced. It'd do well for a number of markets and would top a lot of incessant complaining.
PCs do a rather crap job of this too but they are just generally cheaper which sort of makes up for it. But generally their efforts tend to use integrated graphics, which is just a major evil in this world.
Off topic I can't type today but...
[quote]Yeah, I can't figure out what's borked it, but it's annoying.<hr></blockquote>
Not to name names but I'd say it's serano's use of a code field instead of a quote. Looks like his post spawns the problem at least.
<strong>I have a feeling that Matsu will end up like gollum when a 17" PowerBook G5 is introduced.
All day he'll huddle over his "my precious", becoming more and more bitter and twisted.
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
Lost! The precious is lost!
I don't get the ergo argument. An iCurve is what? 39 bucks. With a bluetooth keyboard and mouse, a nice ergonomic dock couldn't be simpler, no wires or dongles, just prop up your book and work away. Easy peasy.
PS, Amorph, it's because your mate was a freak. Dolby prologic ruled surround for ages, and Dolby digital is the DVD default language. Ain't no disks that won't play a 5.1 track through DD. Now if he wanted to add DTS, and the various 6.1 matrix or discrete decoders and 7.1 discrete decoders, or even ProLogicII, that's his choice, but in reality 5.1 dolby digital/prologic will let you get surround sound out of any source intended to be surround sound, the rest are minor tweaks and geegaws and unneccessary -- not having them will not limit you ability to enjoy any DVD/CD/VHS tape. My first VCR chugged along for ten years. Nothing in my first stereo has failed and it happily cranks out the decibels just like it did when brand new.
3 post in a row, sorry, I should have put it all into one post, but I keep noticing things up in the thread,
The cube failed only because it was too expensive, there's no reason why it couldn't cost 999 today and still include a faster PPC (whatever that is) in an SP config, with a decent sized HDD and combo-optical drive. Mebbe re-arranged to match those new PC-cubes, which are rather nice with their FRONT facing TRAY loading optical and space for 2 HDD's and 1 each of a full size AGP and PCI slot. I might even be tempted to agree that faster firewire speeds (1600+ Mbps/200MBps) would largely obviate the need for a PCI bus. A PPC daughtercard or socket of some kind is a must.
If a grossly inflated iMac can cost 1299 then a heasless machine with less of a miniturization penalty can certainly cost 999 while including a higher spec of components.
I don't get the ergo argument. An iCurve is what? 39 bucks. With a bluetooth keyboard and mouse, a nice ergonomic dock couldn't be simpler, no wires or dongles, just prop up your book and work away. Easy peasy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just want to look at the display, not my "laptop on display". The iCurve looks wonderful for use in the AppleStore, but as a practical work setup? No thanks, I'd buy an iMac2 first. The iMac2's display arm is a terrific innovation and it solves the worst problem with the typical AIO (adjusting the display required moving the whole machine).
Let's see, I have a 7500. In it I have upgraded with a Sonnet 400MHz G4 in a PCI slot, I have upgraded to an ATI Rage Pro graphics card in a PCI slot, I have upgraded to a combo Firewire/USB port in a PCI slot.
Sure, it ain't as fast as a G4 400MHz when it was new, but then again, it suits most of my needs. I upgrade because I can not afford to buy a new Apple computer every 2-4 years. I'm close, but still need to save up a couple of hundred $$ in my cash fund(Christmas/Birthdays depleted it somewhat).
I may represent a small minority of Apple users, I don't know, but I may represent what could be a lot of switchers, again I don't know.
There is a market for a good quality monitorless Mac, and I suspect it to be much larger than the market for an AIO. To gain the mindshare of consumers, Apple in the past lacked a modern OS and software. With the introduction of PPC they had very competative hardware(re: & Apple did have pizza box units), but the OS was lacking. Now they have the OS, but Motorola/IBM somewhat dropped the ball for Apple(re: I'm not blaming Motorola/IBM, their interests lay elsewhere- read embedded and Power 4). It now looks like at least IBM sees potential for Mac OS again, we'll see.
Maybe, when Apple's cpu's are again more competative with the Intel/AMD cpu's and X86 motherboards Apple will take the plunge into the middle range desktop boxes, now that they have a modern operating system and open source commitment, I can only hope so.
Long story short, my opinion is that until the cpu/motherboards are competative Apple can not afford to introduce a mid range pizza box and stays with the AIO.
. . . Apple needs something that provides a single processor, which is headless and can have its video card replaced. . .
PCs do a rather crap job of this too but they are just generally cheaper which sort of makes up for it. But generally their efforts tend to use integrated graphics, which is just a major evil in this world. . .
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe few of us would buy a computer with on-board graphics and no AGP slot, but it does allow a lower selling price for markets like school classrooms, business offices and those at home who only do email and word processing. These are very big markets, and people are dumping Macs for PCs in these markets today.
An advantage of on-board graphics to Apple would be the inability to easily upgrade to higher performance. The more Apple could restrict such a product, the less it would take sales from the higher margin Macs. And Apple does need a low end, low cost product. It is the only way to offer an all Mac solution to most organizations. Customers like small business do not tend to mix platforms. It's either all Mac or all Windows.
Comments
<strong>
"Amorph, the laptop is interesting as an AIO, acceptable even at a higher price, because it travels, iMacs don't."
They do have that advantage, although some so-called portables are hardly more luggable than the iMac is.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
A laptop as an AIO? Only if you want to end up like Gollum! The ergonomics of a laptop are horrid and doing serious work on them without an add-on keyboard and seperate display is just about the most uncomfortable experience I've ever had. Adding an external display means its not AIO and there is also a substantial price hit due to the need to make everything as small, light, low power and cool as possible. The AIO isn't the end all and be all of computing, but it is a legitimate market segment, and one Apple has a long history of being successful with.
[ 01-23-2003: Message edited by: Programmer ]</p>
All day he'll huddle over his "my precious", becoming more and more bitter and twisted.
Barto
How many powermac owners do you know who have a use for their 4 PCI slots? I don't know any. If I bought a Power Mac today, I'd max the ram, MAYBE buy a second hard drive and that's it.
So having this huge fookin desktop makes no sense. Especially when you are paying for all that empty PCI real estate.
A cube-like design is bound to return, perhaps when the PPC970 emerges. A tight, high end system packed into a form-factor equal to or smaller than a Cube, 2 ram slots (2GB), a screaming bus, DVI-out and ports on the front is all I'll ever need.
All in ones are nice, but expensive and that lovely 17" display gets thrown out with the bathwater when the iMac needs replacing due to anemic specs.
I believe the i-line of Macs may be on its way out look at the Powerbook line, and perhaps we will see something similar happen to Powermacs. Super highend: dual or Quad processors, 4 PCI slots, etc. Lowend: Single processor, no PCI slots, or maybe one, single harddrive.
Would you really still buy an imac, instead of a much more affordable machine with a plethora (CRT, LCD) of monitors to choose from? I doubt it.
edit: PS, Apple, for god's sake, put a fan in there, just make it a COMPLETELY SILENT one, OK? It can be done.
[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: 1337_5L4Xx0R ]</p>
The area I feel a lot of companies fall down is cheap desktops. The cube was good in this respect (had it been priced properly) as if you were to look at the most upgraded parts they'd be video card and RAM. Cut PCI slots down and a few of the other extras and try to slot something between AIO and tower. Frankly I don't care about noise but Apple needs something that provides a single processor, which is headless and can have its video card replaced. It'd do well for a number of markets and would top a lot of incessant complaining.
PCs do a rather crap job of this too but they are just generally cheaper which sort of makes up for it. But generally their efforts tend to use integrated graphics, which is just a major evil in this world.
Off topic I can't type today but...
[quote]Yeah, I can't figure out what's borked it, but it's annoying.<hr></blockquote>
Not to name names but I'd say it's serano's use of a code field instead of a quote. Looks like his post spawns the problem at least.
[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>
<strong>I have a feeling that Matsu will end up like gollum when a 17" PowerBook G5 is introduced.
All day he'll huddle over his "my precious", becoming more and more bitter and twisted.
Barto</strong><hr></blockquote>
Lost! The precious is lost!
I don't get the ergo argument. An iCurve is what? 39 bucks. With a bluetooth keyboard and mouse, a nice ergonomic dock couldn't be simpler, no wires or dongles, just prop up your book and work away. Easy peasy.
The cube failed only because it was too expensive, there's no reason why it couldn't cost 999 today and still include a faster PPC (whatever that is) in an SP config, with a decent sized HDD and combo-optical drive. Mebbe re-arranged to match those new PC-cubes, which are rather nice with their FRONT facing TRAY loading optical and space for 2 HDD's and 1 each of a full size AGP and PCI slot. I might even be tempted to agree that faster firewire speeds (1600+ Mbps/200MBps) would largely obviate the need for a PCI bus. A PPC daughtercard or socket of some kind is a must.
If a grossly inflated iMac can cost 1299 then a heasless machine with less of a miniturization penalty can certainly cost 999 while including a higher spec of components.
<strong>
Lost! The precious is lost!
I don't get the ergo argument. An iCurve is what? 39 bucks. With a bluetooth keyboard and mouse, a nice ergonomic dock couldn't be simpler, no wires or dongles, just prop up your book and work away. Easy peasy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just want to look at the display, not my "laptop on display". The iCurve looks wonderful for use in the AppleStore, but as a practical work setup? No thanks, I'd buy an iMac2 first. The iMac2's display arm is a terrific innovation and it solves the worst problem with the typical AIO (adjusting the display required moving the whole machine).
Let's see, I have a 7500. In it I have upgraded with a Sonnet 400MHz G4 in a PCI slot, I have upgraded to an ATI Rage Pro graphics card in a PCI slot, I have upgraded to a combo Firewire/USB port in a PCI slot.
Sure, it ain't as fast as a G4 400MHz when it was new, but then again, it suits most of my needs. I upgrade because I can not afford to buy a new Apple computer every 2-4 years. I'm close, but still need to save up a couple of hundred $$ in my cash fund(Christmas/Birthdays depleted it somewhat).
I may represent a small minority of Apple users, I don't know, but I may represent what could be a lot of switchers, again I don't know.
There is a market for a good quality monitorless Mac, and I suspect it to be much larger than the market for an AIO. To gain the mindshare of consumers, Apple in the past lacked a modern OS and software. With the introduction of PPC they had very competative hardware(re: & Apple did have pizza box units), but the OS was lacking. Now they have the OS, but Motorola/IBM somewhat dropped the ball for Apple(re: I'm not blaming Motorola/IBM, their interests lay elsewhere- read embedded and Power 4). It now looks like at least IBM sees potential for Mac OS again, we'll see.
Maybe, when Apple's cpu's are again more competative with the Intel/AMD cpu's and X86 motherboards Apple will take the plunge into the middle range desktop boxes, now that they have a modern operating system and open source commitment, I can only hope so.
Long story short, my opinion is that until the cpu/motherboards are competative Apple can not afford to introduce a mid range pizza box and stays with the AIO.
<strong>
. . . Apple needs something that provides a single processor, which is headless and can have its video card replaced. . .
PCs do a rather crap job of this too but they are just generally cheaper which sort of makes up for it. But generally their efforts tend to use integrated graphics, which is just a major evil in this world. . .
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe few of us would buy a computer with on-board graphics and no AGP slot, but it does allow a lower selling price for markets like school classrooms, business offices and those at home who only do email and word processing. These are very big markets, and people are dumping Macs for PCs in these markets today.
An advantage of on-board graphics to Apple would be the inability to easily upgrade to higher performance. The more Apple could restrict such a product, the less it would take sales from the higher margin Macs. And Apple does need a low end, low cost product. It is the only way to offer an all Mac solution to most organizations. Customers like small business do not tend to mix platforms. It's either all Mac or all Windows.