<strong>A pleasant surprise to see the 'new' 'power'Macs out today. Great to see the improvement to the 'power'Mac pricing... and that they took my advice for a single gigger at a lower price...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And I'm still baffled to see that the same people screaming at Apple for poor performance are content to pay about 15% less for a tower that runs about 50% slower.
But then, I suppose price is more important than value to some people. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Personally, I think Apple has learned better than to offer a truly compelling low end machine. Now they're adopting the more traditional marketing approach of offering a machine that's almost there for an attractive price so that they can talk the customer into a higher-end purchase. It's less rational and more cynical, but sadly effective.
At least they made the higher end models (especially the midrange model) more attractive. And the monitors are suddenly priced to move.
It's not that effective, expect PM sales to tank, as they should. Nothing for current owners here, and nothing to fool new ones. It's time to change my sig back.
The only issue I can see with the 20" screen is that it still has that stupid ADC setup. The unit is now competitively priced, they should be trying to sell it to Windows users, like they sell a Windows iPod. That gets new users into the brand.
But that's never going to happen when the screen has ADC - no one's going to shell out further money to buy the necessary adaptors.
I don't understand the vitriol spewed toward ADC. I think it's great and if you don't have the right connector, several companies make adapters and almost all G4's I have seen (except for the early G4 models) have ADC. Even 3rd party Mac video cards include it.
<strong>So can you use the 23" Cinema Display with a PC? If so, what sort of adapter (and where to get it) do I need? What video cards would support it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know what cards support the 23" resolution, I think anything fairly "modern", ie in the last three years or so. You need an adaptor which includes a power supply (the Apple LCDs take power from the video output on the computer - there are some cards available to do this too, but I've no idea which).
There are a couple of adaptors available (I think), one for certain is Dr Bott's DVIator:
<strong>I don't understand the vitriol spewed toward ADC. I think it's great and if you don't have the right connector, several companies make adapters and almost all G4's I have seen (except for the early G4 models) have ADC. Even 3rd party Mac video cards include it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No vitriol, it's just a really stupid idea that limits sales. Yes there are adaptors, but they cost around $150.00 - which is something between 20% and 7.5% on top of the price of the monitor.
As far as support goes, Apple can't even provide support for this standard on its own hardware - iBooks and 12" PowerBooks need adaptors, and i think iMacs do too.
What would be a much better idea would be for Apple to make it an *option*. ie put USB ports on the monitors anyway, and have an input for an external power supply, which you could either choose to buy or not, at a reasonably price (ie $50.00).
In not doing this Apple limits both sales to existing Mac users (who don't have ADC capable machines) and to potential PC users.
No vitriol, it's just a really stupid idea that limits sales. Yes there are adaptors, but they cost around $150.00 - which is something between 20% and 7.5% on top of the price of the monitor.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The price is $99.
[quote]Originally posted by Clive:
<strong>
As far as support goes, Apple can't even provide support for this standard on its own hardware - iBooks and 12" PowerBooks need adaptors, and i think iMacs do too.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why is it bad that low end models don't support DVI? And since the iBook and iMac only supports mirroring, you can't get a larger screen anyway.
[quote]Originally posted by Clive:
<strong>
?and have an input for an external power supply, which you could either choose to buy or not, at a reasonably price (ie $50.00).</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's what they are doing with the $99 adapter (you can call it a power supply if you want to )
Why is it bad that low end models don't support DVI? And since the iBook and iMac only supports mirroring, you can't get a larger screen anyway.
That's what they are doing with the $99 adapter (you can call it a power supply if you want to )</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm probably remarkably stupid, but why don't you click on the link to the DVIator I previously provided, and see the price provided at the Dr Bott web site?
Some other source?
The cause of my confusion could well be that you are talking about a DVI adaptor, where as I'm talking about a DVI to ADC adapator, required for all Apple LCDs in the current range, to work with non-ADC video cards (ie 12" PowerBooks and iBooks, any PC and lots of non-current Macs, as well as anyone wanting to run dual displays).
It's not bad that they don't support DVI it's bad that the screens require an ADC card or an expensive adapator/power supply.
It's irrelevant that some models only support mirroring, they all support a larger external monitor anyway, rather than spanning (check the specs your self).
ADC cards provide power to the display, therefore you need another power supply in the adaptor in order to power the display if you don't have an ADC capable card.
I don't see why this should not be called a "power supply". I'm told that the power supply used is actually an Apple supplied Cube unit.
<strong>I'm probably remarkably stupid, but why don't you click on the link to the DVIator I previously provided, and see the price provided at the Dr Bott web site?
Some other source?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Try Apple Store and take a look on Apple's own DVI to ADC adapter
[quote]Originally posted by Clive:
<strong>The cause of my confusion could well be that you are talking about a DVI adaptor, where as I'm talking about a DVI to ADC adapator, required for all Apple LCDs in the current range, to work with non-ADC video cards (ie 12" PowerBooks and iBooks, any PC and lots of non-current Macs, as well as anyone wanting to run dual displays).</strong><hr></blockquote>
The iBook, 12" PowerBook, eMac and iMac have VGA out - not DVI. You can't use a DVI to ADC adapter on those models.
[quote]Originally posted by Clive:
[QB]It's irrelevant that some models only support mirroring, they all support a larger external monitor anyway, rather than spanning (check the specs your self).[QB]<hr></blockquote>
Without using firmware hacks, iBooks, eMacs and iMacs only supports the same resolution on the external display as they have on the built in display.
I don't understand the position that because the 23" can't run on winodws without an adapter that it's some how flawed? As a mac user who has the 22" and will be looking to upgrade to the 23" I could care less that it doesn't work on a pc without an adapter. How does that distract from it's specs, price and appearance? It's a fantastic monitor. I don't remember people whining that the iPod sucked because it wouldn't work with windows. I only remember the whine about not porting it to windows.
The LCDs rock and thier pricing now is simply awesome. Even tho i paid $2500 for my cinema display <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>I don't understand the position that because the 23" can't run on winodws without an adapter that it's some how flawed?...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're deliberately missing the point - it won't run on anything that isn't ADC compatible, including a lot of Macs, without an adaptor.
Why deliberately restrict your market, thus increasing the cost to service the few users you have? I thought Apple had gotten out of that "proprietory" methodology to give us all cheaper and better devices.
You should want Apple to sell as much product to as many people as possible, while still maintaining quality - the ADC isn't a quality issue, it's just a stupid idea from start to finish.
At the end of the day plenty of current Apple hardware cannot use an ADC setup, without *some kind* of adaptor. That adaptor necessarily includes a power supply.
I remember when ADC was launched, Apple reps saying "we're not going to make an adaptor" - yeah right.
Whatever the cost today, I don't think that I'd buy an Apple LCD because of the ADC and the lack of height/angle adjustment etc - as was stated throughout this thread.
<strong>JLL: you're just a troll.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm a troll for showing you a $99 adapter instead of a $150 adapter?
I'm a troll for telling you that iBooks, 12" PowerBooks, iMac and eMacs have VGA out and not DVI out as you said?
I'm a troll for stating that there isn't much point it connecting 1280 x 1024, 1680 x 1050 or 1920 x 1200 displays to computers that don't support anything higher than 1024 x768?
Actually, the "You can call it a power supply if you want" comment got me to thinking -- maybe it's just a cost-cutting move. I have one of the original DVI Cinema Displays (which I paid $4000 for, btw. , and it has a not-insubstantial external power supply. Powerbook power adapters are in the $100 range, and strike me as very similar to the power supply an LCD would require. By using ADC to leverage the computer's power supply, not to mention saving some cables and connectors, Apple can cut costs pretty considerably.
Seems pretty fair. I bet that if the displays were DVI with the power supply and all the extra connection paraphenalia, they'd be almost $100 more expensive. ADC allows these kickass display prices we see now.
So there.
It does kind of suck that the Powerbooks don't have an ADC connector, but I don't fault them -- the power requirements are more than you should expect from a laptop system, even when it's plugged in.
<strong>Actually, the "You can call it a power supply if you want" comment got me to thinking -- maybe it's just a cost-cutting move. I have one of the original DVI Cinema Displays (which I paid $4000 for, btw. , and it has a not-insubstantial external power supply. Powerbook power adapters are in the $100 range, and strike me as very similar to the power supply an LCD would require. By using ADC to leverage the computer's power supply, not to mention saving some cables and connectors, Apple can cut costs pretty considerably.
Seems pretty fair. I bet that if the displays were DVI with the power supply and all the extra connection paraphenalia, they'd be almost $100 more expensive. ADC allows these kickass display prices we see now.
So there.
It does kind of suck that the Powerbooks don't have an ADC connector, but I don't fault them -- the power requirements are more than you should expect from a laptop system, even when it's plugged in.
Alex</strong><hr></blockquote>
Formac LCD screens that include ADC are cheaper than ones that have a regular DVI. This may be the reason.
Comments
<strong>A pleasant surprise to see the 'new' 'power'Macs out today. Great to see the improvement to the 'power'Mac pricing... and that they took my advice for a single gigger at a lower price...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And I'm still baffled to see that the same people screaming at Apple for poor performance are content to pay about 15% less for a tower that runs about 50% slower.
But then, I suppose price is more important than value to some people. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Personally, I think Apple has learned better than to offer a truly compelling low end machine. Now they're adopting the more traditional marketing approach of offering a machine that's almost there for an attractive price so that they can talk the customer into a higher-end purchase. It's less rational and more cynical, but sadly effective.
At least they made the higher end models (especially the midrange model) more attractive. And the monitors are suddenly priced to move.
[ 01-28-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
But that's never going to happen when the screen has ADC - no one's going to shell out further money to buy the necessary adaptors.
<strong>So can you use the 23" Cinema Display with a PC? If so, what sort of adapter (and where to get it) do I need? What video cards would support it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know what cards support the 23" resolution, I think anything fairly "modern", ie in the last three years or so. You need an adaptor which includes a power supply (the Apple LCDs take power from the video output on the computer - there are some cards available to do this too, but I've no idea which).
There are a couple of adaptors available (I think), one for certain is Dr Bott's DVIator:
<a href="http://www.drbott.com/prod/db.lasso?code=0111-DVAD"; target="_blank">http://www.drbott.com/prod/db.lasso?code=0111-DVAD</a>;
if you don't have DVI out then you also need something to go from VGA to DVI.
<strong>I don't understand the vitriol spewed toward ADC. I think it's great and if you don't have the right connector, several companies make adapters and almost all G4's I have seen (except for the early G4 models) have ADC. Even 3rd party Mac video cards include it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No vitriol, it's just a really stupid idea that limits sales. Yes there are adaptors, but they cost around $150.00 - which is something between 20% and 7.5% on top of the price of the monitor.
As far as support goes, Apple can't even provide support for this standard on its own hardware - iBooks and 12" PowerBooks need adaptors, and i think iMacs do too.
What would be a much better idea would be for Apple to make it an *option*. ie put USB ports on the monitors anyway, and have an input for an external power supply, which you could either choose to buy or not, at a reasonably price (ie $50.00).
In not doing this Apple limits both sales to existing Mac users (who don't have ADC capable machines) and to potential PC users.
<strong>
No vitriol, it's just a really stupid idea that limits sales. Yes there are adaptors, but they cost around $150.00 - which is something between 20% and 7.5% on top of the price of the monitor.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The price is $99.
[quote]Originally posted by Clive:
<strong>
As far as support goes, Apple can't even provide support for this standard on its own hardware - iBooks and 12" PowerBooks need adaptors, and i think iMacs do too.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why is it bad that low end models don't support DVI? And since the iBook and iMac only supports mirroring, you can't get a larger screen anyway.
[quote]Originally posted by Clive:
<strong>
?and have an input for an external power supply, which you could either choose to buy or not, at a reasonably price (ie $50.00).</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's what they are doing with the $99 adapter (you can call it a power supply if you want to
[ 01-29-2003: Message edited by: JLL ]</p>
<strong>The price is $99.
Why is it bad that low end models don't support DVI? And since the iBook and iMac only supports mirroring, you can't get a larger screen anyway.
That's what they are doing with the $99 adapter (you can call it a power supply if you want to
I'm probably remarkably stupid, but why don't you click on the link to the DVIator I previously provided, and see the price provided at the Dr Bott web site?
Some other source?
The cause of my confusion could well be that you are talking about a DVI adaptor, where as I'm talking about a DVI to ADC adapator, required for all Apple LCDs in the current range, to work with non-ADC video cards (ie 12" PowerBooks and iBooks, any PC and lots of non-current Macs, as well as anyone wanting to run dual displays).
It's not bad that they don't support DVI it's bad that the screens require an ADC card or an expensive adapator/power supply.
It's irrelevant that some models only support mirroring, they all support a larger external monitor anyway, rather than spanning (check the specs your self).
ADC cards provide power to the display, therefore you need another power supply in the adaptor in order to power the display if you don't have an ADC capable card.
I don't see why this should not be called a "power supply". I'm told that the power supply used is actually an Apple supplied Cube unit.
<strong>I'm probably remarkably stupid, but why don't you click on the link to the DVIator I previously provided, and see the price provided at the Dr Bott web site?
Some other source?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Try Apple Store and take a look on Apple's own DVI to ADC adapter
[quote]Originally posted by Clive:
<strong>The cause of my confusion could well be that you are talking about a DVI adaptor, where as I'm talking about a DVI to ADC adapator, required for all Apple LCDs in the current range, to work with non-ADC video cards (ie 12" PowerBooks and iBooks, any PC and lots of non-current Macs, as well as anyone wanting to run dual displays).</strong><hr></blockquote>
The iBook, 12" PowerBook, eMac and iMac have VGA out - not DVI. You can't use a DVI to ADC adapter on those models.
[quote]Originally posted by Clive:
[QB]It's irrelevant that some models only support mirroring, they all support a larger external monitor anyway, rather than spanning (check the specs your self).[QB]<hr></blockquote>
Without using firmware hacks, iBooks, eMacs and iMacs only supports the same resolution on the external display as they have on the built in display.
The LCDs rock and thier pricing now is simply awesome. Even tho i paid $2500 for my cinema display <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>I don't understand the position that because the 23" can't run on winodws without an adapter that it's some how flawed?...</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're deliberately missing the point - it won't run on anything that isn't ADC compatible, including a lot of Macs, without an adaptor.
Why deliberately restrict your market, thus increasing the cost to service the few users you have? I thought Apple had gotten out of that "proprietory" methodology to give us all cheaper and better devices.
You should want Apple to sell as much product to as many people as possible, while still maintaining quality - the ADC isn't a quality issue, it's just a stupid idea from start to finish.
At the end of the day plenty of current Apple hardware cannot use an ADC setup, without *some kind* of adaptor. That adaptor necessarily includes a power supply.
I remember when ADC was launched, Apple reps saying "we're not going to make an adaptor" - yeah right.
Whatever the cost today, I don't think that I'd buy an Apple LCD because of the ADC and the lack of height/angle adjustment etc - as was stated throughout this thread.
<strong>JLL: you're just a troll.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm a troll for showing you a $99 adapter instead of a $150 adapter?
I'm a troll for telling you that iBooks, 12" PowerBooks, iMac and eMacs have VGA out and not DVI out as you said?
I'm a troll for stating that there isn't much point it connecting 1280 x 1024, 1680 x 1050 or 1920 x 1200 displays to computers that don't support anything higher than 1024 x768?
Seems pretty fair. I bet that if the displays were DVI with the power supply and all the extra connection paraphenalia, they'd be almost $100 more expensive. ADC allows these kickass display prices we see now.
So there.
It does kind of suck that the Powerbooks don't have an ADC connector, but I don't fault them -- the power requirements are more than you should expect from a laptop system, even when it's plugged in.
Alex
I'll have to stop correcting people who make errors in their posts, and post relevant facts to refute them... wouldn't want to be called a troll.
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
[ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
<strong>Wow, when did this happen? I mean trolls now correct mistakes made by other posters, and clearly lay out facts? Did I miss a meeting?
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
[ 01-31-2003: Message edited by: murbot ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
you miss macluv
<strong>Actually, the "You can call it a power supply if you want" comment got me to thinking -- maybe it's just a cost-cutting move. I have one of the original DVI Cinema Displays (which I paid $4000 for, btw.
Seems pretty fair. I bet that if the displays were DVI with the power supply and all the extra connection paraphenalia, they'd be almost $100 more expensive. ADC allows these kickass display prices we see now.
So there.
It does kind of suck that the Powerbooks don't have an ADC connector, but I don't fault them -- the power requirements are more than you should expect from a laptop system, even when it's plugged in.
Alex</strong><hr></blockquote>
Formac LCD screens that include ADC are cheaper than ones that have a regular DVI. This may be the reason.