Powermac 1 yr Updates ?

johnrp · January 24, 2005 4:08AM

I know i will probably be shouted at for asking the same old question but in a different way but here goes anyway.

Powermacs were last updated 06/04 which (looking at past update times) makes them due for an update very soon.

BUT the xserve went a full year between updates.

Does any one know when the dual 2.5 began shipping (in real numbers) after the 06/04 I know there was a delay.

I only ask as I am very close to ordering one but don't want to if they are updated next month.. but than again if they are updated but it take 3 months for me to get the new one I may as well get a 2.5 now.

Ohh and do you guys think it will just be a speed bump or a more serious update. I personally think it will be just a speed bump to 2.85 or similar, but with all the talk of dual core etc I am unsure.

Guess I should just bite the bullet as the dual 2.5 will be around the top spot speed wise for the foreseeable future anyway I guess.

any comments/help would be much appreciated.

j.

onlooker · January 24, 2005 5:17AM

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/

nathan22t · January 24, 2005 5:46AM

Quote:

Originally posted by onlooker

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/

whats this?

supporting the enemy? our rival?

BAH. Buyers Guide be DAMNED

johnrp · January 24, 2005 5:53AM

That link is the reason why I am asking this question.. I was all for buying the G5 last night and then I was mailed that link by a friend.

That is why i am having a little doubt (always bad having buyers remorse BEFORE you buy the product). I guess it is just vanity more than anything I want the fastest Powermac on the market for as long as possible.

I'm upgrading from a Dual 450 G4 so anything will be blistering in comparison.

Do you think that the powermacs will be updated before or with the release of Tiger ? (64bit is the real reason to leave the G4).

j.

pb · January 24, 2005 6:06AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnrp

Do you think that the powermacs will be updated before or with the release of Tiger ? (64bit is the real reason to leave the G4).

Since S. Jobs just repeated the "first half of 2005" time frame for Tiger release, I believe that Tiger will not be available before June, perhaps in WWDC. And given the recent track of updates in Power Macs and XServe (once a year), I would be surprised if the new Power Macs come before WWDC. This is not Apple's choice, it is just the CPU development that has entered a general slowdown (compared to what happened some years ago).

quamb · January 24, 2005 6:45AM

some say it may be a minor upgrade in the next few weeks - as it has happened before. others say in march. and the majority say this june (which is pretty bad form considering the pm's are supposed to be apples cutting edge pro-line).

all in all - it sucks - as am sure the day I can't wait any longer and pay up, they'll be announced an hour later.

davidm · January 24, 2005 9:40AM

johnrp, I was in the same boat as you and I just bit the bullet. I got a 2.5 rationalizing that even with a speed bump the 2.5 would likely be the middle of the road machine at about $500 less than what it costs today.

So I figure that every day I am more productive with a faster machine is that much more I can justify paying the $500 premium. And if the PM isn't updated for several weeks I'll feel even better.

But I was totally convinced as quamb is that the minute I bought, the new machines would be anmnounced. The only speck of good news there is that the Apple Store will give you proce protection for 14 days.

Happy shopping!

johnrp · January 24, 2005 4:41PM

It's in the basket waiting for the big click.....

maybe I will just call it a mac 21 Bday present

j.

maccrazy · January 24, 2005 5:13PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnrp

I know i will probably be shouted at for asking the same old question but in a different way but here goes anyway.

Powermacs were last updated 06/04 which (looking at past update times) makes them due for an update very soon.

BUT the xserve went a full year between updates.

Does any one know when the dual 2.5 began shipping (in real numbers) after the 06/04 I know there was a delay.

I only ask as I am very close to ordering one but don't want to if they are updated next month.. but than again if they are updated but it take 3 months for me to get the new one I may as well get a 2.5 now.

Ohh and do you guys think it will just be a speed bump or a more serious update. I personally think it will be just a speed bump to 2.85 or similar, but with all the talk of dual core etc I am unsure.

Guess I should just bite the bullet as the dual 2.5 will be around the top spot speed wise for the foreseeable future anyway I guess.

any comments/help would be much appreciated.

j.

As has been said before I think Jobs wants to hit the 3.0GHz target he set himself. When they are ready so will the new PowerMac G5s.

onlooker · January 24, 2005 8:53PM

As a PowerMac user, ex-buyer I would rather see them wait until they have an updated, and new motherboard design with a different version of the G5, or G6 processor before upgrading the PowerMac. An incremental update will only make the people that buy this minimal incremented update upset when the new one comes out. It should be six month updates, but if you can't make it. Go for the gusto, and kick some PC ass. Now if All you get in June is PCI-E, and faster processors I would laugh. If they wait that long they should have more than that up their sleeves.

dumpster_d · January 25, 2005 12:39AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnrp

Powermacs were last updated 06/04 which (looking at past update times) makes them due for an update very soon.

Does any one know when the dual 2.5 began shipping (in real numbers) after the 06/04 I know there was a delay.

I only ask as I am very close to ordering one but don't want to if they are updated next month.. but than again if they are updated but it take 3 months for me to get the new one I may as well get a 2.5 now.

Man, I'm in the same boat. I've been putting off my next purchase (my 10th Mac, and it'll be my first ever *new* mac purchase) for three months now.

My problem is: I'm in a desperate need for horsepower, so I want that 2x2.5--but can't afford more than 2.5k$ on this purchase.

Very sad I was to see no minor update at or immediately after MWSF--something to put the 2.5 at the 2.0 price-point.

Even now, though, it's still cheaper than the dual Opteron system that is my other consideration.

. . but waiting until MWDC?

This G4/533 will be the end of me by then!

pb · January 25, 2005 1:55AM

Quote:

Originally posted by onlooker

Now if All you get in June is PCI-E, and faster processors I would laugh.

Seriously now, do you really expect something more? Apart of course the necessary touches in feature details. I would be surprised if they even hit the 3 GHz mark.

Quote:

If they wait that long they should have more than that up their sleeves.

Like what? We all know that IBM is very silent lately. For me this means that they are hard at work for the next generation processor. Which should be announced in this fall's Microprocessor Forum. And available in new Power Macs somewhere next year (most probably WWDC 2006).

onlooker · January 25, 2005 3:38AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PB

Seriously now, do you really expect something more? Apart of course the necessary touches in feature details. I would be surprised if they even hit the 3 GHz mark.

Actually no. I don't expect them to do anything more. It seems pretty Apple to me.

zapchud · January 25, 2005 4:38AM

It truly sucks if they're going to settle for one year product cycles, like they have with the G5 so far.

I expect the new models (whenever they come) will feature PCIe, faster processors, hopefully with an updated bus topology (IMC!) and bigger L2 cache, faster default graphics card, more hard-drive space by default and finally 512 MB RAM in all models.

What I hope for is additional hard-drive slots, slightly altered case design (internals and exterior), and a less steep processor speed curve in the line-up. Also, a more reasonable low-end PowerMac would probably be much appreciated in the market, although I'm not going to buy one.

david_oc · January 25, 2005 5:17AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zapchud

It truly sucks if they're going to settle for one year product cycles, like they have with the G5 so far.

At least if they settled for a cycle, people could make decisions to buy in January instead of endlessly waiting for next Tuesday

maccrazy · January 25, 2005 5:36AM

Quote:

Originally posted by david_oc

At least if they settled for a cycle, people could make decisions to buy in January instead of endlessly waiting for next Tuesday

I know that feeling only too well

zapchud · January 25, 2005 7:37AM

Quote:

Originally posted by david_oc

At least if they settled for a cycle, people could make decisions to buy in January instead of endlessly waiting for next Tuesday

I agree about that though. :-)

onlooker · January 25, 2005 9:57AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zapchud

It truly sucks if they're going to settle for one year product cycles, like they have with the G5 so far.

I expect the new models (whenever they come) will feature PCIe, faster processors, hopefully with an updated bus topology (IMC!) and bigger L2 cache, faster default graphics card, more hard-drive space by default and finally 512 MB RAM in all models.

What I hope for is additional hard-drive slots, slightly altered case design (internals and exterior), and a less steep processor speed curve in the line-up. Also, a more reasonable low-end PowerMac would probably be much appreciated in the market, although I'm not going to buy one.

That's what I'm talking about. Not just the same old stuff that some people were unhappy with when they changed from G4 to G5.

I'd still like either a second motherboard design with SLI, or just have 2 PCI-E slots and let the user decide if they want to use it.

If they were to do the latter it could accomplish a lot. By that I mean these lower end graphics cards always seem to be outdated before they get off the assembly lines. If they had a second slot, and you could order them from Apple ( or anywhere) at a reasonable price vs. the same card on the PC side they would probably sell quite a few. (call it a hunch) This doubles your GPU, and memory. But in doing so they could help Nvidia clear out some of their old stock of GPU's which paves the way for more sales from Apple, and could go a long way into discussing the availability a Pro 3D Card option on the Mac. (which would make me happy)

What I have learned recently is that Nvidia supplies Apple the source code for the driver that supports the particular card. When I had assumed that they were using only Apple's own OpenGL implementation to drive their cards.

The following article says otherwise straight from the Main Man at Nvidia. It may also clear up any other misconceptions if anyone else has any as I did.

Quote:

Q & A with Nvidia on the Mac

Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL Graphics card

Posted: 7/20/2004

Link to Original Article

Shortly after Apple announced the Mac Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL card for the PowerMac G5s (which is required to drive the 30in Cinema Display), I sent a series of questions to a contact at Nvidia on the card. Yesterday I received the reply from Ujesh Desai, Nvidia's General Manager of Desktop GPUs. Although some questions didn't get as complete an answer as I hoped (often due to the fact Apple controls OEM Mac Nvidia products), I appreciate his taking the time to reply. How does the NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL card for the Mac differ from the PC version (i.e. Does the PC version have dual link DVI?)

The GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL card was designed specifically for the Mac to provide two dual-link outputs to support Apple's displays.

Does the Apple version of the GeForce 6800 Ultra GPU run at the same core/memory clock as the PC version?

The Apple cards run at 400/550, just like the GeForce 6800 Ultra GPU on the PC.

(Note: Some vendor's 6800 cards are clocked higher than the standard/reference design.)

The GeForce 6800 Ultra for the PC has two Molex power connectors - does the Mac version source all the power from the G5's AGP pro slot? (or does it have a aux power connector?)

There is an on-board power connector on the graphics card and the motherboard to provide power, so there is no need for an external power connector from the power supply.

(although the only Mac 6800 photos I've seen are tiny, it appears there's a stub connector on the card that (I suspect) uses the ADC (28V or 24V usually) DC power connector on the motherboard that's normally used for ADC display power to provide additional power (regulated down) for the 6800 card. That eliminates the need for Aux. (Molex) P.S. connector(s) like the PC/standard 6800 card versions have.)

Does the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL have a low-noise fan?

Yes, the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL runs very quiet.

Will there ever be a control panel with 3D/GL/FSAA controls for the NVIDIA cards on the Mac platform? (ATI's retail Radeon cards (and OEM models with the 3rd party patch) have a '3D/GL overrides' feature - which is seen as a big plus by many end users.)

Apple provides all the drivers for NVIDIA-based add-in cards. We supply them with the source code and they provide the final driver.

Regarding the previous question - if there's no chance of an Apple supplied NVIDIA card control panel (for advanced features/FSAA, etc.) - if a 3rd party wanted to do this, can NVIDIA provide some assistance?

Apple is our customer, so if this is something that they requested, then we would support it.

There's been talk of previous NVIDIA cards taking a bigger than expected performance hit from using some types of shaders (on the Mac) - is this a concern with the GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL?

GeForce 6 Series GPUs have the most advanced shading engines on the market. Compared to previous generation parts, the vertex and pixel shader engines on GeForce 6 Series GPUs have been completely redesigned from the ground-up. Pixel Shader performance is 4 to 8 times faster. Vertex shader performance is twice as fast. Performance numbers have been outstanding.

Will there updated/new drivers for the GeForce 6800 Ultra?

Yes. Apple provides all the drivers for NVIDIA-based add-in cards. We supply them with the source code and they provide the final driver. Apple will control the release schedules for drivers that provide even more performance, features and image quality enhancements.

Do you have any idea how performance compares on the Mac between the GeForce 6800 Ultra and the ATI 9800 Pro/XT card?

GeForce 6800 Ultra represents the largest leap forward in graphics performance in our company's history. As expected, they are much faster than previous generation products from ATI. We will let the benchmarks speak for themselves. (Note: There's no Mac 6800 performance reviews currently as it's not set to ship until late August. (I should have one for tests then.) Nvidia's 6800 reviews page lists many PC site reviews of various models of the 6800 - but most compare performance to the ATI 9800/XT model, not the faster/more advanced X800 series. One review that does have some (PC) 6800 Ultra vs ATI X800 (XT/Platinum models) tests is this article at Anandtech, which in the limited tests run there shows similar performance in Halo and Aquamark. However a more recent article on Doom3 benchmarks (run by ID) show the 6800 cards (Ultra and GT models) delivering higher framerates (esp. in AGP form factor at higher res) than the X800 Platinum edition and X800 Pro. Of course there's no Mac ATI X800 series cards announced yet, although I'd bet they're in the works. (Update - the ATI drivers in 10.3.5 have a reference to the X800 Pro.) The Doom3 benchmarks seemed to have really boosted demand for 6800 cards due to the better OpenGL performance in that game (despite the fact the X800 cards often did better in DirectX games). I wonder if the recent Half-Life 2 engine stress tests showing the X800 series as better performers will turn the tables a bit. (Of course for Mac OS X, OpenGL is used for 3D apps/games and Quartz Extreme.))

Platforms/drivers aside - how does the GeForce 6800 Ultra compare in design/features to the ATI X800 series?

ATI has spun an old architecture and have done a very good job of squeezing the last bit of untapped performance from it and the drivers. GeForce 6 is a new architecture and we will have a lot more headroom than they will. We always give significant performance increases after we have leveled out the stability of the new architecture. GeForce 6 should continue that trend. Other key differences include:

We support shader model 3, they do not.

We support 64-bit floating point blending and filtering, they don't.

We are the first chip with an onboard video processor

(Note: Some previous ATI cards like their AIW models have shipped with the "Rage Theater" video encoder/decoder chip on the card. It was first intro'd in 1998, and revised I'm sure since then. Of course the current generation of GPUs have more advanced features.)

This is an old question, but do you think there will ever be a retail Mac NVIDIA card? (i.e. Is the Apple contract an exclusive on the ROM code, etc. - or is there just no interest in PC graphics card mfrs to do a Mac product?)

We sell GPUs, we do not sell add-in cards. Apple has offered stand alone cards for sale on the Apple store in the past. We plan on continuing to offer products for the Mac platform through Apple.

(I was trying get an answer if the Apple contract was an exclusive, or if the reason there are no Mac retail Nvidia cards is that none of the (many) companies that have sold PC Nvidia GPU based cards have any interest in selling a Mac retail product. (i.e. - Has any company approached Nvidia about licensing the mac ROM, etc.) Although Apple has from time to time sold OEM Mac Nvidia cards separately, the selection has been sparse and prices typically high. PC 6800 Ultra cards are currently priced similar to the Mac 6800 Ultra however, but the Mac model only works/fits in a PowerMac G5. And with lots of retail competition, PC versions typically drop in price over time.)

Normally DVI (DVI-I) port cards have analog pins in the connector so that a DVI->VGA adapter can be used. Can a DVI to VGA adapter be used with the Mac 6800 Ultra DDL DVI ports? (Apple's currently limited info on the card does not mention this capability)

There is no technical reason why a DVI to VGA adapter would not work on this board.

I've wrote contacts at ATI for their comments on future Mac graphics card models such as an X800 based card and replies to any comments above, which I'll add to this page when received.

Related Links:

First Doom3 Benchmarks (includes 6800 vs ATI X800 performance)

Apple store page for the Mac Nvidia 6800 Ultra DDL card

Nvidia's 6800 series product page

ATI's X800 product page(although their Mac products page lists the 9800 Pro/Special Edition as the highest end model to date.)

Nvidia's listing of 6800 series card reviews (most include tests vs ATI 9800XT)

For previous tests of Mac graphics cards (Mac 9800 Pro retail, OEM 9800, GF4 Ti, etc.), see the graphics card section of theVideo topics page.

maccrazy · January 25, 2005 10:03AM

Wow, cool info, well done Onlooker

johnrp · January 25, 2005 2:46PM

Well It's done.

Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5

512MB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 2x256MB

250GB Serial ATA

NVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT DDL 256MB, 2xDVI

Going to Crucial for the RAM, any suggestions on how much.

2GB extra (4x512) I was thinking.

j.

onlooker · January 25, 2005 3:18PM

I would just choose any ram in matched pairs I could find at the best price.

I would look to OWC (Other World Computing) It might save you a few pennies.

Powermac 1 yr Updates ?

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