what i miss in this discussion about reusing the screen of the imac II for another (newer) mac is the fact that the mac isn't ageing as fast as a pc does... some of my friends running osx on almost 5 years old wallstreets (yes the one with 233Mhz) and use these machines as their main computer for work. (okay, others running os8.6 because they are afraid of changes) you can always sell it for good money. a 5 years old pc is obsolete (and but ugly, no one wants to spend money on something like that)
i think if you buy a imac now it will stand the tides of time for a long time.
give the summer/autum rev. of the imac a 20" screen and a hell of a videocard (call it special edition and charge a little extra) and it will at least on my damn table.
The whole 20" iMac fantay is completely unbased and ridiculous. Why would anyone use a 20" screen? For Photoshop and Finalcut. Who would use an iMac for pro video and heavy image editing? Nobody. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
<strong>The whole 20" iMac fantay is completely unbased and ridiculous. Why would anyone use a 20" screen? For Photoshop and Finalcut. Who would use an iMac for pro video and heavy image editing? Nobody. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
unbased yes, rediculous no. i don't know what you are doing with your mac, or what you think other people do with it. but video editing and photoshopping are not the main uses of a larger screen than 17". graphic design, dtp and web design are other large real estate users and because these people loves the american "bigger is better" mentality but don't need its firepower in such extreem quantities a 20.1" imac would be perfect. the compact footprint of a imac and the screensize of the 20.1" cinemadisplay makes sense for this group of users that don't need much more than a 1Ghz (okay, faster is better but that's another discussion) and 1gb of memory. the price should be cheaper than a powermac with 20.1" but may exceed the 17" imac with $ 400,00 (especially with a nicer videocard).
will it parasite on powermac sales: yes (what powermac sales?) will it attract extra sales: yes (everybody in the graphic industry, especially the small businesses are waiting and still working on their G4 yikes and G3 bw with a 20" screen (indeed) because the economy is in a slump. so a sold mac is a mac sold) i know a lot of people who would buy (well okay; at least three) and don't want or need a tower.
If Apple were to introduce a 20 inch iMac, the base would have to be much bigger, to balance the hulking weight of the 20" LCD. If they did, they would need something to put in the base (other than lead <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> ) to balance the display. Dual processors/expandability? I don't think so. that would cut into the Powermac's line of work, and everyone knows that the Powermacs have the highest profit margin of any Apple machine, save maybe the xServe. Of course, I bet Uncle Steve could invent some way of convincing us that having lead in the base would boost performance. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>Larger screens basically mean that you don't need a pivoting screen anymore, especially when the imac gets a 20" screen.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It will never happen, a 20" iMac that is, ever.
All in one machines by default are classified under "disposable" computers if you ask me. I will not buy an iMac for this very reason, it's a cheap comp that is way overpriced... WAY overpriced. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> It's a disposable Mac for crying out loud. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> Compare it's display to the stand alone displays. The iMac's looks terrible. Yes, I know there is a market for it, people who don't care about such things as expandability or LCD sharpness. However, I do believe the iMac could do better if Apple treated the iMac as a disposable Mac and priced it as such.
Now, what is missing from Apple's product line is something in the $1,000.00 range, neither consumer nor pro, but a configurable Mac for the rest of us. I also believe this is what most of the potential "switchers" want to see in a Mac as well: A mini tower that is not only expandable, but upgradable, yes I mean the CPU. I want choices, I want to put in whatever graphics card I want, I want to chose what CPU speed I need, I want to pick the display I need, and if 6 months from now I want to get another display or CPU I can! I want CHOICES!! <img src="graemlins/cancer.gif" border="0" alt="[cancer]" />
<strong>That computer for the rest of us you speak of is a Dell.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you where closer I'd show you what I think of any Dell, or any PC for that matter. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> What part of "Mac" do you not understand?
<strong>You can skin Windows XP to look like OS X, you know. Many PC users lust for OS X, so they do that. The difference: they crash every 2.5 seconds. </strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>Give me one AGP slot and 1 PCI slot. Give me the ability to change out the optical drive and hard drives easily.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
---> People will tell you that the point of the iMac is an "all-rounder" and that you're not supposed to be able to do what you mention above. I however, totally agree with you, a swappable optical and harddrive is the least it should be able to do! A friend of mine uses an iBook and I was very surprised to hear that the optical is not swappable! How could you design machines like these and NOT give the user the option to hot-swap!? If I had bought the same iBook I would now be stuck with a DVD-ROM/CD-R combo drive limited to 8x burning. Although that's more than sufficient it doesn't make the unit future-proof! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Aha! That's how moderators get up to ungodly 4 thousand posts.
And another thing on this thread. The more I look at the '17 incher'...it's just a stretch 15 incher. Give or take. It's not a true 17 inch monitor. Another reason I say it's overpriced.
Yeesh. Take away the steel arm/LCD monitor and you have an unremarkable desktop.
Looks great though.
What happened to the 'iTablet' that can unhook from the iMac arm idea? Not enough wireless bandwidth?
I dunno. Why not release an iMac2 booster Cube. One that you turbo charge your iMac's graphics, cpu and bandwidth (y'know, when a year from now the overpriced and unexpandable iMac2 starts seriously chugging...)
The 17" is something Apple likes to call a Cinema display: a display that is has a lower net resolution to diagonal length ratio. They do that to save money, and have a screen that looks different. I love it, though.
And please don't have a fit and verbally assault me because I posted this, Eugene...
---> People will tell you that the point of the iMac is an "all-rounder" and that you're not supposed to be able to do what you mention above. I however, totally agree with you, a swappable optical and harddrive is the least it should be able to do! A friend of mine uses an iBook and I was very surprised to hear that the optical is not swappable! How could you design machines like these and NOT give the user the option to hot-swap!? If I had bought the same iBook I would now be stuck with a DVD-ROM/CD-R combo drive limited to 8x burning. Although that's more than sufficient it doesn't make the unit future-proof! </strong><hr></blockquote>
It is called planned obsolencese. It happens with cars, heaters, sterios, etc. Why does it happen? The manufacturers need to sell more products to stay in buisness, so they need a buying cycle for future products.
The iMac is being marketed as an appliance, I guess you could say. Computers are becoming more and more intefrated into the lifestyle, and the iMac is designed to get the job done.
Planned obsolescence is a matter of degrees. All my major appliances have given over 20 years of service, and each of my consumer electronics bits have given over 10. Next year all our cars will be 10 years old, my AMD PC is 6 years old and bits of it are nearly 10 years old. A hermetically sealed desktop at the prices Apple charges is just too restrictive. For the price it ought to include as a minimum the same ability to EASILY swap-out or add internal drives, upgrade the video card and I/O and CPU. I can buy this future proofing ability in the most basic 500USD PC tower to say nothing of more expensive units which offer this same easy expansion and about 2X more real world speed (rare altivec tasks excepted).
Apple can plan all the obsolescence it wants, but it isn't getting a desktop sale from me untill it stops treating desktop costomers with utter contempt. I deserve better, my wallet deserves better. Apple has to earn my money, they aren't, and as the long term decline suggests, they aren't earning a lot of peoples' money either.
I think you may get bored of its design if you keep seeing it in shops, but if you have one at home the OOOOOHHHHHHs !!! of your guests as they dicover it on your desk will remind you when you fell for it.
[quote] Apple can plan all the obsolescence it wants, but it isn't getting a desktop sale from me untill it stops treating desktop costomers with utter contempt. I deserve better, my wallet deserves better. Apple has to earn my money, they aren't, and as the long term decline suggests, they aren't earning a lot of peoples' money either.
<hr></blockquote>
That kinda sums up the way I feel about Apple's desktops. They're flawed. Great OS. Great design. Great integration of hardware/software. Terrific free software. But the cpu? The sacrifices made because of that design? Lack of upgradability. I wouldn't mind if the iMac had a cpu that was going to last a few years. The G4 in the iMac is two years past its sell by date. And the Geforce 4mx is not what you should offer in a top end iMac that is close to £2000!!!
In short, Matsu, I agree. That's what my wallet is saying too.
So, what do I really want to see in the iMac design? Upgradability. Maybe they should change the shape of the dome if that is the problem. Maybe a cuboidular ice cool cube pizza box which can take standard components.
What we have is a machine that is even worse than the Cube!!! At least the Cube was upgradeable!
Bring back the Cube (...cheap mini-tower price...) and drop the iMac2 to the eMac price range.
Apple can plan all the obsolescence it wants, but it isn't getting a desktop sale from me untill it stops treating desktop costomers with utter contempt. I deserve better, my wallet deserves better. Apple has to earn my money, they aren't, and as the long term decline suggests, they aren't earning a lot of peoples' money either.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I didnt say I liked, or agreed with it. Nor did I say it was a good strategy, but it did bring us cars like the Vega, Pinto, and Chevette.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
[[[my AMD PC is 6 years old and bits of it are nearly 10 years old.]]]
That's point number on. If you refer back to my earlier posts, you will see what I mean when I talk about return on investment... Look at all the $$ you spent over that time *upgrading* to get to the point where you are now. It's probably a lot more than you would spend for a completely new machine. Also consider the fact that computer "geeks" like us are slowly becoming the minority. MOST people who buy ANY computer today have more than enough power to do the things that they normally do from day to day. These people do not need *more* in the future. If they do, they simply buy a new machine because the ROI is better.
[[[A hermetically sealed desktop at the prices Apple charges is just too restrictive.]]]
*Sigh* Dude, try working on one, It's not hermetically sealed.
[[[For the price it ought to include as a minimum the same ability to EASILY swap-out or add internal drives, upgrade the video card and I/O and CPU. ]]]
Why?!?? We've been through this. I explained it. Amorph explained it... Take the foil hat off already, the aliens aren't trying to read your mind! Seriously though.. This isn't needed. The drives that come with most computers these days are MORE THAN ENOUGH for MOST people in that target market. On the other hand, If a larger drive is required, there are two routs that you or any user can take by the time you'd be actually needing a larger capacity unit; probably well past Apple's warrantee. They are:
- Open the model and swap out the drive itself and keep the nice tidy enclosure.
- Add an external FireWire drive and have the ability of swapping/adding/daisy-chaining other/more external drives and devices that allow for superior portability between different machines.
The point is, unless you collect TONS of games, MOST people don't need this vast amount of storage that YOU require. You seem to be projecting YOUR needs and desires onto the rest of the masses. I mean how many hard drives do you swap out during a 4 year period anyway? Give us a break... because you seem to be nitpicking and splitting hairs
As far as video cards... Again, MOST people never even consider this because what's available is more than adequate for their needs. By the time they even start to consider a new card (for whatever reason), it's likely that they will simply look at completely new systems anyway. Furthermore, Apple isn't aiming the iMac at the market you describe. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were a mega-gamer...
I/O and CPU... This is ridiculous. Again, I have to mention the poor ROI. Not to mention the fact that this course of action buys you very little time if any at all. Most of the people buying computers these days are the same people who are buying refrigerators, washing machines and TVs. These people aren't going to be futzing around with the unit unless it breaks or fails in some way.
[[[I can buy this future proofing ability in the most basic 500USD PC tower to say nothing of more expensive units which offer this same easy expansion and about 2X more real world speed ]]]
I got news for you ... what you are describing is NOT future-proffing at all. The return on investments over a given time interval need to be figured into the total cost of ownership. Future proof means not having a *need* to ever upgrade to something for some specific amount of time. In the case with any brand computer purchased today, people shouldn't have a need to upgrade for at least 5 to 6 years If it costs you extra on top of what you already spent then it isn't future proof... Again, it's a buzzword that's thrown around rather loosely these days.
[[[Apple can plan all the obsolescence it wants, but it isn't getting a desktop sale from me until it stops treating desktop costomers with utter contempt]]]
I'm not sure what your particular *needs* are, why don't you fill us all in, eh?
[[[Apple has to earn my money, they aren't, and as the long term decline suggests, they aren't earning a lot of peoples' money either. ]]]
I suppose you said the same about Compaq or any of the other dead PC manufacturers that are no longer with us... In the end people buy a new machine.
The more I read this thread, the more I notice how it morphed into a thread not about the iMac AIO, but rather a plea for Apple to design a dirt cheap tower. Why doesn't someone start a thread titled "A Dirt Cheap Mac Tower/Cube for Average Consumers", and' leave this one to the iMac AIO.
Comments
i think if you buy a imac now it will stand the tides of time for a long time.
give the summer/autum rev. of the imac a 20" screen and a hell of a videocard (call it special edition and charge a little extra) and it will at least on my damn table.
<strong>The whole 20" iMac fantay is completely unbased and ridiculous. Why would anyone use a 20" screen? For Photoshop and Finalcut. Who would use an iMac for pro video and heavy image editing? Nobody. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
unbased yes, rediculous no. i don't know what you are doing with your mac, or what you think other people do with it. but video editing and photoshopping are not the main uses of a larger screen than 17". graphic design, dtp and web design are other large real estate users and because these people loves the american "bigger is better" mentality but don't need its firepower in such extreem quantities a 20.1" imac would be perfect. the compact footprint of a imac and the screensize of the 20.1" cinemadisplay makes sense for this group of users that don't need much more than a 1Ghz (okay, faster is better but that's another discussion) and 1gb of memory. the price should be cheaper than a powermac with 20.1" but may exceed the 17" imac with $ 400,00 (especially with a nicer videocard).
will it parasite on powermac sales: yes (what powermac sales?) will it attract extra sales: yes (everybody in the graphic industry, especially the small businesses are waiting and still working on their G4 yikes and G3 bw with a 20" screen (indeed) because the economy is in a slump. so a sold mac is a mac sold) i know a lot of people who would buy (well okay; at least three) and don't want or need a tower.
[ 02-15-2003: Message edited by: gar ]</p>
<strong>Larger screens basically mean that you don't need a pivoting screen anymore, especially when the imac gets a 20" screen.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It will never happen, a 20" iMac that is, ever.
All in one machines by default are classified under "disposable" computers if you ask me. I will not buy an iMac for this very reason, it's a cheap comp that is way overpriced... WAY overpriced. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> It's a disposable Mac for crying out loud. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> Compare it's display to the stand alone displays. The iMac's looks terrible. Yes, I know there is a market for it, people who don't care about such things as expandability or LCD sharpness. However, I do believe the iMac could do better if Apple treated the iMac as a disposable Mac and priced it as such.
Now, what is missing from Apple's product line is something in the $1,000.00 range, neither consumer nor pro, but a configurable Mac for the rest of us. I also believe this is what most of the potential "switchers" want to see in a Mac as well: A mini tower that is not only expandable, but upgradable, yes I mean the CPU. I want choices, I want to put in whatever graphics card I want, I want to chose what CPU speed I need, I want to pick the display I need, and if 6 months from now I want to get another display or CPU I can! I want CHOICES!! <img src="graemlins/cancer.gif" border="0" alt="[cancer]" />
<strong>That computer for the rest of us you speak of is a Dell.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you where closer I'd show you what I think of any Dell, or any PC for that matter. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> What part of "Mac" do you not understand?
<strong>You can skin Windows XP to look like OS X, you know. Many PC users lust for OS X, so they do that. The difference: they crash every 2.5 seconds.
Shut up already.
<strong>Give me one AGP slot and 1 PCI slot. Give me the ability to change out the optical drive and hard drives easily.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
---> People will tell you that the point of the iMac is an "all-rounder" and that you're not supposed to be able to do what you mention above. I however, totally agree with you, a swappable optical and harddrive is the least it should be able to do! A friend of mine uses an iBook and I was very surprised to hear that the optical is not swappable! How could you design machines like these and NOT give the user the option to hot-swap!? If I had bought the same iBook I would now be stuck with a DVD-ROM/CD-R combo drive limited to 8x burning. Although that's more than sufficient it doesn't make the unit future-proof! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<hr></blockquote>
Aha! That's how moderators get up to ungodly 4 thousand posts.
And another thing on this thread. The more I look at the '17 incher'...it's just a stretch 15 incher. Give or take. It's not a true 17 inch monitor. Another reason I say it's overpriced.
Yeesh. Take away the steel arm/LCD monitor and you have an unremarkable desktop.
Looks great though.
What happened to the 'iTablet' that can unhook from the iMac arm idea? Not enough wireless bandwidth?
I dunno. Why not release an iMac2 booster Cube. One that you turbo charge your iMac's graphics, cpu and bandwidth (y'know, when a year from now the overpriced and unexpandable iMac2 starts seriously chugging...)
Lemon Bon Bon
And please don't have a fit and verbally assault me because I posted this, Eugene...
[ 02-17-2003: Message edited by: os10geek ]</p>
<strong>
---> People will tell you that the point of the iMac is an "all-rounder" and that you're not supposed to be able to do what you mention above. I however, totally agree with you, a swappable optical and harddrive is the least it should be able to do! A friend of mine uses an iBook and I was very surprised to hear that the optical is not swappable! How could you design machines like these and NOT give the user the option to hot-swap!? If I had bought the same iBook I would now be stuck with a DVD-ROM/CD-R combo drive limited to 8x burning. Although that's more than sufficient it doesn't make the unit future-proof!
It is called planned obsolencese. It happens with cars, heaters, sterios, etc. Why does it happen? The manufacturers need to sell more products to stay in buisness, so they need a buying cycle for future products.
Apple can plan all the obsolescence it wants, but it isn't getting a desktop sale from me untill it stops treating desktop costomers with utter contempt. I deserve better, my wallet deserves better. Apple has to earn my money, they aren't, and as the long term decline suggests, they aren't earning a lot of peoples' money either.
I think you may get bored of its design if you keep seeing it in shops, but if you have one at home the OOOOOHHHHHHs !!! of your guests as they dicover it on your desk will remind you when you fell for it.
<hr></blockquote>
That kinda sums up the way I feel about Apple's desktops. They're flawed. Great OS. Great design. Great integration of hardware/software. Terrific free software. But the cpu? The sacrifices made because of that design? Lack of upgradability. I wouldn't mind if the iMac had a cpu that was going to last a few years. The G4 in the iMac is two years past its sell by date. And the Geforce 4mx is not what you should offer in a top end iMac that is close to £2000!!!
In short, Matsu, I agree. That's what my wallet is saying too.
So, what do I really want to see in the iMac design? Upgradability. Maybe they should change the shape of the dome if that is the problem. Maybe a cuboidular ice cool cube pizza box which can take standard components.
What we have is a machine that is even worse than the Cube!!! At least the Cube was upgradeable!
Bring back the Cube (...cheap mini-tower price...) and drop the iMac2 to the eMac price range.
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>
Apple can plan all the obsolescence it wants, but it isn't getting a desktop sale from me untill it stops treating desktop costomers with utter contempt. I deserve better, my wallet deserves better. Apple has to earn my money, they aren't, and as the long term decline suggests, they aren't earning a lot of peoples' money either.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I didnt say I liked, or agreed with it. Nor did I say it was a good strategy, but it did bring us cars like the Vega, Pinto, and Chevette.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
That's point number on. If you refer back to my earlier posts, you will see what I mean when I talk about return on investment... Look at all the $$ you spent over that time *upgrading* to get to the point where you are now. It's probably a lot more than you would spend for a completely new machine. Also consider the fact that computer "geeks" like us are slowly becoming the minority. MOST people who buy ANY computer today have more than enough power to do the things that they normally do from day to day. These people do not need *more* in the future. If they do, they simply buy a new machine because the ROI is better.
[[[A hermetically sealed desktop at the prices Apple charges is just too restrictive.]]]
*Sigh* Dude, try working on one, It's not hermetically sealed.
[[[For the price it ought to include as a minimum the same ability to EASILY swap-out or add internal drives, upgrade the video card and I/O and CPU. ]]]
Why?!?? We've been through this. I explained it. Amorph explained it... Take the foil hat off already, the aliens aren't trying to read your mind! Seriously though.. This isn't needed. The drives that come with most computers these days are MORE THAN ENOUGH for MOST people in that target market. On the other hand, If a larger drive is required, there are two routs that you or any user can take by the time you'd be actually needing a larger capacity unit; probably well past Apple's warrantee. They are:
- Open the model and swap out the drive itself and keep the nice tidy enclosure.
- Add an external FireWire drive and have the ability of swapping/adding/daisy-chaining other/more external drives and devices that allow for superior portability between different machines.
The point is, unless you collect TONS of games, MOST people don't need this vast amount of storage that YOU require. You seem to be projecting YOUR needs and desires onto the rest of the masses. I mean how many hard drives do you swap out during a 4 year period anyway? Give us a break... because you seem to be nitpicking and splitting hairs
As far as video cards... Again, MOST people never even consider this because what's available is more than adequate for their needs. By the time they even start to consider a new card (for whatever reason), it's likely that they will simply look at completely new systems anyway. Furthermore, Apple isn't aiming the iMac at the market you describe. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were a mega-gamer...
I/O and CPU... This is ridiculous. Again, I have to mention the poor ROI. Not to mention the fact that this course of action buys you very little time if any at all. Most of the people buying computers these days are the same people who are buying refrigerators, washing machines and TVs. These people aren't going to be futzing around with the unit unless it breaks or fails in some way.
[[[I can buy this future proofing ability in the most basic 500USD PC tower to say nothing of more expensive units which offer this same easy expansion and about 2X more real world speed ]]]
I got news for you ... what you are describing is NOT future-proffing at all. The return on investments over a given time interval need to be figured into the total cost of ownership. Future proof means not having a *need* to ever upgrade to something for some specific amount of time. In the case with any brand computer purchased today, people shouldn't have a need to upgrade for at least 5 to 6 years If it costs you extra on top of what you already spent then it isn't future proof... Again, it's a buzzword that's thrown around rather loosely these days.
[[[Apple can plan all the obsolescence it wants, but it isn't getting a desktop sale from me until it stops treating desktop costomers with utter contempt]]]
I'm not sure what your particular *needs* are, why don't you fill us all in, eh?
[[[Apple has to earn my money, they aren't, and as the long term decline suggests, they aren't earning a lot of peoples' money either. ]]]
I suppose you said the same about Compaq or any of the other dead PC manufacturers that are no longer with us... In the end people buy a new machine.
The more I read this thread, the more I notice how it morphed into a thread not about the iMac AIO, but rather a plea for Apple to design a dirt cheap tower. Why doesn't someone start a thread titled "A Dirt Cheap Mac Tower/Cube for Average Consumers", and' leave this one to the iMac AIO.
--
Ed M.