Keep in mind the tests they ran do NOT take advantage of SLI or dual gpu, so those benches are bunk no matter how you slice it. Its like comparing a stock 6600gt to a stock 6800ultra (overclocking considered). This is like having a dual processor system in windows, no true multithreading / multitasking between processors. The 2nd processor just sits there waiting to be used... just like in this case, the 2nd gpu just sits there in Unreal Tourn and other games not being used. Maximum PC is the ones that tested the card in this months issue (if you care to pick it up and look). They DID use applications to compare SLI and the dual core cards. And YES the dual core 6600gt was faster than the 6800ultra SLI. You can't believe every bench you see, and while I have great respect for tomshardware, this test does not prove anything about the dual core / SLI.
And this proves my point... Apple not moving to PCI-Express ASAP does not bare a big difference, yes there is a 533mhz vs (what is pci-e, 1066mhz?) (agp8x vs pci-e 16x).
Long story short apple not moving to pci-express 16x doesn't have any BIG performance issues until applications take advantage of the bi-directional communication of which makes pci-e so much better. A year from now, i'll bite. I'm sure major apps will take advantage of it. As it is now nothing really does take advantage of it.
\\\\What makes you think that?
If it's not using SLI or Dual GPU why is the single 6600GT slower than the SLI 6600GT?
Hard OCP tested this card too. At the beginning of the test they rebooted, and loaded the SLI once the second GPU was detected as instructed (I think Toms hardware did too), and their test definitely had both GPU's running. Their results were the same if not worse for the card.
I KNOW this because the graphics libraries do NOT take advantage of 2nd cards.
Just because the SLI was SLIGHTLY faster doesn't mean it was because of the SLI, it could have been many different things, from GPU clock speed, to memory core clock. I would bet money that unreal 2004 and farcry do NOT take advantage of SLI and dual core gpus.
Unreal obviously doesn't, it's old, and FarCry only utilizes it in some things, but not all. Full optimization isn't present, but look at the ones that do. Half life 2, Doom 3, Need for speed. This card still isn't smoking a single 6800 Ultra, or a 6800GT. They didn't even need to try it against either in SLI. Think about it. Look at the stats of that card, and the practicality of what your saying. It's not going to outperform those cards. Not the way you seem to think it should.
Get a copy of maximum PC and look at the article... they ahve benches that make sense. I am basically a messenger boy for what I read in a respected magazine that is up on new hardware.
Dual core is better than SLI, its like compare dual cpu cards to dual core cpus... the dual cpu's are going to be faster (please don't make me get into this one, I know you know that).
Get a copy of maximum PC and look at the article... they ahve benches that make sense. I am basically a messenger boy for what I read in a respected magazine that is up on new hardware.
Dual core is better than SLI, its like compare dual cpu cards to dual core cpus... the dual cpu's are going to be faster (please don't make me get into this one, I know you know that).
I don't need a copy of Max_PC. I trust Hard_OCP, and Toms Hardware more. They have both earned it, and are not willing to give up the kind of respect they have both earned over the years while others have been bought by advertisers. Patrick Norton used to use these guys benches on his show back when I watched.
Anyway.. Lets get back to the thread. I'm tired of this.
Any idea on when the new PM's will actually be out? I need one, but won;t buy a dual 2.0 when a new feature set will make the upcoming release more appealing. Time frames anyone?
Hurry up with the PowerMac updates! I want a Dual 3.0Ghz machine NOW!!! Pro Tools LE v6.7 is eating my 533 Mhz G4 alive... i'm not gonna drop $3000 on a 2.5Ghz model that's been out for 7 months or more...
That will be very sad. Almost a 2 years wait to still fall short of Steve Jobs promise of 3ghz. I really hope you are wrong.
If that's end up being the case, I hope the prices will fall at least $500 across the board to compensate such failure. 250gig HD, 1gig RAM, Dual layer 16x superdrive and video card to drive the 30" display must be standard in this situation to give Apple some leverage with the professional community.
If not, i only can say that Apple has forgotten their most loyal segment in order to please the Ipod generation.
My feeling is that if Steve is planning to announce the PowerMac at WWDC is going to be a MAJOR upgrade. Steve loves the wow factor. Seriously, for him to go up to the stage and introduce a silly upgrade to 2.8, is not going to happen. It's embarrassing for him.
I think the PowerMac is going to possibly get a quiet revamp like the PowerBook line did recently. Small speed increase(2.8), lower prices and more HD, RAM and faster superdrives among other things. It makes sense and that would give more time to Apple to introduce something much better in the future(Paris?).
That would leave the Powerbook G5 coming to WWDC and give Steve what he wants. Wow factor!
I just don't see the powerbook g5 being updated at WWDC, Way too short of a time span for the current powerbooks... unless they ship in september.
As far as the speed goes on the powermac processors, all chip manufacturers ran into problems, AMD, Intel, IBM... that is not apple's fault. No one can see into the future... this is why cpu upgrade plans are called "road maps"... they are the plan. Plans don't always pan out.
Even if 3ghz is the upgrade speed I still don't see Jobs announcing the powermacs at wwdc. It would still be a minor upgrade even if they did add Hypertransport2, PC4200 DDR2, PCI-Express, new case. If all of this came in the new powermac it still wouldn't be significant enough for the developers. You MUST remember this IS a Developer show, not a consumer show. Announcing at other shows would be much better publicity. The products at WWDC must intrigue developers... the g5 was introduced there because it introduced 64bit programming to the mac.
Just my opinion. I think we're at least a year away from a MAJOR upgrade... which will be dual core.
My feeling is that if Steve is planning to announce the PowerMac at WWDC is going to be a MAJOR upgrade. Steve loves the wow factor. Seriously, for him to go up to the stage and introduce a silly upgrade to 2.8, is not going to happen. It's embarrassing for him.
I agree it would be a Major upgrade at WWDC if they decide to announce it there (which is why I hope it is WWDC), but processor speed may not necessarily be the WOW'ing factor. All the other tweaks would be sufficient especially if the 3GHz processor never even appears.
Also, if they wait that long it could also be a dual core CPU that they use which would be a huge WOW, but I'm not making any predictions, just thinking aloud.
If you scope out Macrumors buying guide page it shows the Powermac updates all the way back to January 2002. It also shows the span of time between updates.
The current lack of update far exceeds the previous update history. While I'm sure someone here that has a photographic memory can point out longer refresh cycles, one can at least appreciate that the Power Mac in the last three years hasn't taken this long for an update.
If Jonathan Ive has had this long to work on these new Power Mac's they had better be incredible in order to maintain his reputation. He has done so well and created amazing computers, but I feel entirely underwhelmed by the apparent lack of focus on the Power Mac and a complete lack of "power". I just hope he's spent as much time with the Power Mac as he's been spending on all the latest hardware, e.g. iMac, Mac Mini, iPod Shuffle, etc, but I doubt it. It would have been in our hands by now if that were the case.
I just can't see myself getting excited about a dual 2.0 or a dual 2.5 in the current configuration, certainly not at those prices. I just look down at my 1.25 GHz Powerbook and think, well I guess I'll live with this until a PM is released that is worth all the money of the upgrade and of course, all the BTO options I'd throw on top further jacking up the cost. I'll not have a bare-bones PM like they sell. Since my conversion to Macs I have owned one G3, this G4, and I'll own one Dual G5 Power Mac. As a result, I want it to be a G5 that I'm not disappointed with down the road. Having played around with the current PM's, I'm not convinced that they could be my one G5 upgrade.
Actually the last update cycle took 11 months. The machines were announced (the original g5) the first week of july (at wwdc) and updated last year (rev b g5) the first week of june... almost exactly 11 months. Them adding a dual 1.8 to the line up 4 months into the announcement doesn't make it a refresh.
Coming from someone who's owend a dual g5 (dual 2.0), I think that a machine like that would be MORE than sufficient for at least 3-4 years if you're getting along on a powerbook 1.25. They are excellent machines.
One thing people don't realize is benchmarks don't mark the real world. You should actually use one in a real world environment for a few hours. It will do more than anything you want it to. It has amazing power. Onlooker and others can bitch about numbers, hell I can too... numbers always look good on paper. BUT numbers don't represent real life situations most of the time... example: 2.5ghz ppc 970fx vs 3.0ghz p4... p4 sounds faster yet the 2.5ghz is faster, from floating point calcs to rendering programs (like cinema) to photoshop (real world programs).
Either way, you've waited this long... I'd at least wait until the next rev, you only have a few more months.
But you've scared me. I sold my g5 to get a powerbook... if that 1.25 isn't fast enough for you should I not get a powerbook?
Emig647, I complain about my powerbook because, according to all the others that deem themselves mac gurus, I expect "too much" from a powerbook. To me, they should not put the word "power" in the name if it can't be the definition of the word. The 1.25 GHz PB is good, and while I want to take an axe to it everytime the video goes choppy on me (it can't even display the iTunes visualizer full screen without being so choppy that I want to slam my fist down onto the thing), it does handle surfing the internet well and handles iLife relatively well, though don't get me started about the performance of iMovie on my PB. Others may forgive Apple for the piece of crap videocard they have in the PB, but I most assuredly do not. Also, don't expect to have a hard drive that can perform to reasonable expectations for the word "power" either. Mine is slow and underwhelming. I hold an Apple computer to higher standards than I hold a piece of crap Dell. I expect more. And while everyone complains about the thickness a PB would be if they actually made one to stand up to the "power" name, I'd rather own a thicker PB, than wish to God that I had a better Mac than this underachieving 1.25GHz PB. I love Mac's, but small is worthless to me if it can't perform.
Now, in regard to Power Mac's. I have played for hours on end with a friends dual 2.0 with 4GB ram. It's very smooth and not a bad computer. The problem I have is the price for all of the technologies that will soon be obsolete because they are going to new video aside from AGP (everyone else has) and loads of other things one can read about in these forums that are new technologies that will depress the hell out of someone that buys a dual 2.0. I've already filled up an external 200GB FireWire drive with video, so I want some bigger hard drives to choose from, and the videocard choices are depressing, but none so depressing as the pathetic card they have in this 1.25 GHz PB. Forget what numbers say, I could care less about number crunchers. What I do care about is actual performance, and I swear that my next computer will NEVER have a choppy screen regardless of situation, or it's doing a gravity check out my window.
Yah I had a 9600xt in my powermac. It was a great card and never really had performance issues. The default card was NVIdia 5200 ultra (which I would never buy)... so I upgraded. Looking back I wish I had a 9800xt or 6800gt.. or 9800pro (289.00).
As far as other technologies, I don't see a lot going into the next rev. I don't expect anything big until next year, especially things coming off of this board. But like I said, you should wait.
What graphics card is in your powerbook? How much ram? I was going to get one of the new 1.5ghz with 5400rpm drive, 512ram and the 9700ati. I figured the 9700 would be sufficient... but there may not be a big difference between yours and the 9700?
Comments
Originally posted by emig647
Keep in mind the tests they ran do NOT take advantage of SLI or dual gpu, so those benches are bunk no matter how you slice it. Its like comparing a stock 6600gt to a stock 6800ultra (overclocking considered). This is like having a dual processor system in windows, no true multithreading / multitasking between processors. The 2nd processor just sits there waiting to be used... just like in this case, the 2nd gpu just sits there in Unreal Tourn and other games not being used. Maximum PC is the ones that tested the card in this months issue (if you care to pick it up and look). They DID use applications to compare SLI and the dual core cards. And YES the dual core 6600gt was faster than the 6800ultra SLI. You can't believe every bench you see, and while I have great respect for tomshardware, this test does not prove anything about the dual core / SLI.
And this proves my point... Apple not moving to PCI-Express ASAP does not bare a big difference, yes there is a 533mhz vs (what is pci-e, 1066mhz?) (agp8x vs pci-e 16x).
Long story short apple not moving to pci-express 16x doesn't have any BIG performance issues until applications take advantage of the bi-directional communication of which makes pci-e so much better. A year from now, i'll bite. I'm sure major apps will take advantage of it. As it is now nothing really does take advantage of it.
\\\\What makes you think that?
If it's not using SLI or Dual GPU why is the single 6600GT slower than the SLI 6600GT?
Hard OCP tested this card too. At the beginning of the test they rebooted, and loaded the SLI once the second GPU was detected as instructed (I think Toms hardware did too), and their test definitely had both GPU's running. Their results were the same if not worse for the card.
Doom3
FarCry
Half Life 2
Throughout these tests a single 6800GT matched, but usually outperformed this all in one SLI card. A single 6800 Ultra consistently bested it.
Just because the SLI was SLIGHTLY faster doesn't mean it was because of the SLI, it could have been many different things, from GPU clock speed, to memory core clock. I would bet money that unreal 2004 and farcry do NOT take advantage of SLI and dual core gpus.
Get a copy of maximum PC and look at the article... they ahve benches that make sense. I am basically a messenger boy for what I read in a respected magazine that is up on new hardware.
Dual core is better than SLI, its like compare dual cpu cards to dual core cpus... the dual cpu's are going to be faster (please don't make me get into this one, I know you know that).
Originally posted by emig647
Again,
Get a copy of maximum PC and look at the article... they ahve benches that make sense. I am basically a messenger boy for what I read in a respected magazine that is up on new hardware.
Dual core is better than SLI, its like compare dual cpu cards to dual core cpus... the dual cpu's are going to be faster (please don't make me get into this one, I know you know that).
I don't need a copy of Max_PC. I trust Hard_OCP, and Toms Hardware more. They have both earned it, and are not willing to give up the kind of respect they have both earned over the years while others have been bought by advertisers. Patrick Norton used to use these guys benches on his show back when I watched.
Anyway.. Lets get back to the thread. I'm tired of this.
Originally posted by onlooker
Hard OCP tested this card too.
Testing every card at a different resolution/adjustment doesn't make their comparison very reliable.
And btw SLI = PCI-E 8x for each card.
dual 2.3, dual 2.5, dual 2.8
Originally posted by emig647
I think end april -> end of may.
dual 2.3, dual 2.5, dual 2.8
WWDC is in June and if they announce them there they will most likely ship in the July and August time frame.
And yes that is one hell of a long wait.
Originally posted by emig647
I think end april -> end of may.
dual 2.3, dual 2.5, dual 2.8
That will be very sad. Almost a 2 years wait to still fall short of Steve Jobs promise of 3ghz. I really hope you are wrong.
If that's end up being the case, I hope the prices will fall at least $500 across the board to compensate such failure. 250gig HD, 1gig RAM, Dual layer 16x superdrive and video card to drive the 30" display must be standard in this situation to give Apple some leverage with the professional community.
If not, i only can say that Apple has forgotten their most loyal segment in order to please the Ipod generation.
Originally posted by Brendon
WWDC is in June and if they announce them there they will most likely ship in the July and August time frame.
And yes that is one hell of a long wait.
I'm thinking WWDC too.
Originally posted by onlooker
I'm thinking WWDC too.
My feeling is that if Steve is planning to announce the PowerMac at WWDC is going to be a MAJOR upgrade. Steve loves the wow factor. Seriously, for him to go up to the stage and introduce a silly upgrade to 2.8, is not going to happen. It's embarrassing for him.
I think the PowerMac is going to possibly get a quiet revamp like the PowerBook line did recently. Small speed increase(2.8), lower prices and more HD, RAM and faster superdrives among other things. It makes sense and that would give more time to Apple to introduce something much better in the future(Paris?).
That would leave the Powerbook G5 coming to WWDC and give Steve what he wants. Wow factor!
As far as the speed goes on the powermac processors, all chip manufacturers ran into problems, AMD, Intel, IBM... that is not apple's fault. No one can see into the future... this is why cpu upgrade plans are called "road maps"... they are the plan. Plans don't always pan out.
Even if 3ghz is the upgrade speed I still don't see Jobs announcing the powermacs at wwdc. It would still be a minor upgrade even if they did add Hypertransport2, PC4200 DDR2, PCI-Express, new case. If all of this came in the new powermac it still wouldn't be significant enough for the developers. You MUST remember this IS a Developer show, not a consumer show. Announcing at other shows would be much better publicity. The products at WWDC must intrigue developers... the g5 was introduced there because it introduced 64bit programming to the mac.
Just my opinion. I think we're at least a year away from a MAJOR upgrade... which will be dual core.
Originally posted by gugy
My feeling is that if Steve is planning to announce the PowerMac at WWDC is going to be a MAJOR upgrade. Steve loves the wow factor. Seriously, for him to go up to the stage and introduce a silly upgrade to 2.8, is not going to happen. It's embarrassing for him.
I agree it would be a Major upgrade at WWDC if they decide to announce it there (which is why I hope it is WWDC), but processor speed may not necessarily be the WOW'ing factor. All the other tweaks would be sufficient especially if the 3GHz processor never even appears.
Also, if they wait that long it could also be a dual core CPU that they use which would be a huge WOW, but I'm not making any predictions, just thinking aloud.
MacRumors Buyers Guide
The current lack of update far exceeds the previous update history. While I'm sure someone here that has a photographic memory can point out longer refresh cycles, one can at least appreciate that the Power Mac in the last three years hasn't taken this long for an update.
If Jonathan Ive has had this long to work on these new Power Mac's they had better be incredible in order to maintain his reputation. He has done so well and created amazing computers, but I feel entirely underwhelmed by the apparent lack of focus on the Power Mac and a complete lack of "power". I just hope he's spent as much time with the Power Mac as he's been spending on all the latest hardware, e.g. iMac, Mac Mini, iPod Shuffle, etc, but I doubt it. It would have been in our hands by now if that were the case.
I just can't see myself getting excited about a dual 2.0 or a dual 2.5 in the current configuration, certainly not at those prices. I just look down at my 1.25 GHz Powerbook and think, well I guess I'll live with this until a PM is released that is worth all the money of the upgrade and of course, all the BTO options I'd throw on top further jacking up the cost. I'll not have a bare-bones PM like they sell. Since my conversion to Macs I have owned one G3, this G4, and I'll own one Dual G5 Power Mac. As a result, I want it to be a G5 that I'm not disappointed with down the road. Having played around with the current PM's, I'm not convinced that they could be my one G5 upgrade.
Coming from someone who's owend a dual g5 (dual 2.0), I think that a machine like that would be MORE than sufficient for at least 3-4 years if you're getting along on a powerbook 1.25. They are excellent machines.
One thing people don't realize is benchmarks don't mark the real world. You should actually use one in a real world environment for a few hours. It will do more than anything you want it to. It has amazing power. Onlooker and others can bitch about numbers, hell I can too... numbers always look good on paper. BUT numbers don't represent real life situations most of the time... example: 2.5ghz ppc 970fx vs 3.0ghz p4... p4 sounds faster yet the 2.5ghz is faster, from floating point calcs to rendering programs (like cinema) to photoshop (real world programs).
Either way, you've waited this long... I'd at least wait until the next rev, you only have a few more months.
But you've scared me. I sold my g5 to get a powerbook... if that 1.25 isn't fast enough for you should I not get a powerbook?
Now, in regard to Power Mac's. I have played for hours on end with a friends dual 2.0 with 4GB ram. It's very smooth and not a bad computer. The problem I have is the price for all of the technologies that will soon be obsolete because they are going to new video aside from AGP (everyone else has) and loads of other things one can read about in these forums that are new technologies that will depress the hell out of someone that buys a dual 2.0. I've already filled up an external 200GB FireWire drive with video, so I want some bigger hard drives to choose from, and the videocard choices are depressing, but none so depressing as the pathetic card they have in this 1.25 GHz PB. Forget what numbers say, I could care less about number crunchers. What I do care about is actual performance, and I swear that my next computer will NEVER have a choppy screen regardless of situation, or it's doing a gravity check out my window.
As far as other technologies, I don't see a lot going into the next rev. I don't expect anything big until next year, especially things coming off of this board. But like I said, you should wait.
What graphics card is in your powerbook? How much ram? I was going to get one of the new 1.5ghz with 5400rpm drive, 512ram and the 9700ati. I figured the 9700 would be sufficient... but there may not be a big difference between yours and the 9700?