FWIW - 24bit/192k is a kind of holy grail of audio, a format that can finally (with almost complete certainty) store and carry audio better than the human ear can hear ... (there's many many other factors in the audio chain that come into play of course, but finally, at least this one, storage - which has almost always the biggest buggaboo since the Edison Cylinder - has at last gone "clear" ... and thanks to this, we'll at last get to hear all the other crud that's been hiding in the audio chain ... but I digress).
Hmmmm ... I can't wait to hear the Penderecki Quartet #2 in 24/192 5.1! ...oh, hang on, this is the music industry after all, well, one can dream of course ... I really don't think the industry boffins know what they would have on their hands if people could actually take advantage of their killer home theatre systems with properly mixed, discreete multi-channel monster sound. The pent up demand is getting so great that people might actually want to spend $20 for a shiny piece of plastic again! Oh, but we're still fighting the DVD-A HD-CD wars aren't we? Geeeeeeez!
Well, their's always FireWire800 and Blue Lazer DVD ... let's hope that opportunity isn't blown. Ahhhhh, lossless data and signal communication between all home theatre devices over a single cable in a single format .... will it ever happen, or will the industry find another way to screw this one up?
Anyway ...
[quote]
<strong>It doesn't even have to be TosLink or Coax...S/PDIF connectors can be as simple as two wires...so I think Apple's Pro Speaker jack might actually be capable of the task...
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
As for throwing S/PDIF down a standard coax, you can fake it when necessary (I've done it for years), but it's not a great idea ... you're looking for 90 ohm S/PDIF/AES.EBU digial audio cable for proper safe transmission, which ain't speaker cable ...
[quote] On the hardware side of things I think a better answer is to be found in FireWire. Trying to put audio circuitry into the computer's case tends to introduce too much electronic noise, ground loops, and other weird & wild problems. Better would be to have a small external box (or a full-blown digital receiver) that plugs into the FireWire bus and is sent the audio in digital form. <hr></blockquote>
Yes. FireWire is the answer. Are there any boxes we can currently use for this purpose?
The impatient kid in me wants multi-channel digital output now. Toslink or digital-coax(rca) would be great and many mac users could then connect their computers to a real stereo/home-theater. The current stock configuration is rather pathetic in comparison to even the cheapest PC hardware and 3rd party products.
However... there is one justifiable reason for why Apple has floundered and now trails nearly all other computer manufactures. The promise of Firewire!
Firewire based audio has been a long time in coming. Yet, if apple anticipates firewire taking the audio industry by storm, then perhaps skipping an intermediate step is reasonable. Maybe they purposely took their lumps, and didn't waste the R@D on toslink, dig-coax, spif, etc. A complete redesign of the audio hardware-interface and drivers is not so cheap even if the final manufacturing cost per unit is low.
The good news is that Firewire audio is almost here (probably). Pioneer has released a receiver and disc player with firewire ports. Unfortunately, it is the only manufacturer thus far. Denon got burned by developing its own multi-channel, RIAA-approved, high-quality digital-sound format.
So I urge everyone to lay the blame at least partially on the RIAA. They have until recently, prohibited the output of better-than-CD digital sound from all DVD-A and SACD players. If they weren't so hell bent on maintaining absolute control of the digital content you purchased, electronic manufactures would have already settled on the next generation audio interconnect. El cheapo cd players and receivers from Circuit City would have firewire ports (or one of the earlier interconnect standards. Instead, you go and buy the best audio player on the planet and what do you have to do? Plug it in via 6 analog RCA cords.
If Apple was really paying attention to digital audio and consumer electronics, they probably realized that the RIAA was going to destroy our current standards. Might as well wait...
<strong>Firewire based audio has been a long time in coming. Yet, if apple anticipates firewire taking the audio industry by storm, then perhaps skipping an intermediate step is reasonable. Maybe they purposely took their lumps, and didn't waste the R@D on toslink, dig-coax, spif, etc. A complete redesign of the audio hardware-interface and drivers is not so cheap even if the final manufacturing cost per unit is low.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is true.
Also, keep in mind that just because Apple chooses to go FireWire out doesn't mean that it will be impossible to hook their audio out to whatever you want. I don't doubt that M-Audio or Griffin will step right up and offer FW-to-whatever-you-want bridges. It'll be long enough before FireWire is common in home audio that the payoff on the product development is almost guaranteed.
That way, Apple gets to have 7.1 channel out through a single, small port that millions of their customers already have (and that doesn't take up one side of an iBook), there's a big Third Party Opportunity™ to keep the Mac market alive and well, and home users can still use RCA or S/PDIF or whatever plugs into the equipment they've already invested in.
[quote]<strong>So I urge everyone to lay the blame at least partially on the RIAA.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gladly. It's certainly true that the odds that the promise of the digital revolution will be all but entirely squandered are pretty good, thanks to the fear of the entrenched content industries. They'll die anyway, blaming their customers to the bitter end. Ah well.
<strong>Mitsubishi's NetCommand is nothing more than HAVi, which uses...yup, you guessed it...Firewire.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unfortunately I've never hooked up anything via FireWire to my parents' set. All three NetCommand ports are 4-pin. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
I wonder if I can hook-up my DV camera? I'd need a 4-4 cable though...
However... there is one justifiable reason for why Apple has floundered and now trails nearly all other computer manufactures. The promise of Firewire!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So how about giving us a digital out now and dropping it after a Firewire is as pervasive as it should be? Frankly they should have put a digital out on Macs a long time ago, maybe even before PCs had them. While Apple should try and lead the pack it shouldn't be so far ahead on things which require connection to other peripherals (USB 2.0 anyone?)
<strong>So how about giving us a digital out now and dropping it after a Firewire is as pervasive as it should be?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Riiiiiiiight. And then they have to support said connector for 20 years. Let them get it right the first time... this is too strategically important to screw up by trying to offer kludges for systems that will be stomped on soon.
So how about giving us a digital out now and dropping it after a Firewire is as pervasive as it should be?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why, when they can get FireWire running, immediately giving lots of already-purchased Macs the ability to do better-than-16 bit-stereo sound, and either offer a FW-to-something-else converter themselves, or see that D-Link or Griffin does?
It wouldn't be any more cumbersome than offering a digital out, since so many external speaker systems and stereo components use analog. I'd have to use a converter to plug a Mac into my stereo regardless of whether it was S/PDIF out or FireWire out, so why not go with FireWire? It's already out there on millions of Macs. Including mine. Not that that biases my argument at all.
It wouldn't be any more cumbersome than offering a digital out, since so many external speaker systems and stereo components use analog. I'd have to use a converter to plug a Mac into my stereo regardless of whether it was S/PDIF out or FireWire out, so why not go with FireWire? It's already out there on millions of Macs. Including mine. Not that that biases my argument at all. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Guys, I know a lot of you probably already know this, but so far nobody has said it, so allow me:
S/PDIF sux, it's a late 80's relic ... it carries dual channel digital audio ... well whoopdi-fricken'-doo.
Song names? Nope:
Media Meta data (EQ, Mix type, run times, etc etc?): Nope
Gear Negotiation data?: Nope
Just a plain vanilla Stereo stream, that can be de-coded for lesser resolution discreet 5.1 at your leasure; thru any one of many incompatible 5.1 formats.
Apples' gotta do this right:
FW800, so the connectors don't fry your powerBook's Mobo by accident if you connect with the power on, and also so HDTV bandwidth isn't an issue.
Needless to say, this standard should NOT be just audio, it should be for video and audio, and the gear negotiates with each other as required, including any encryted copy protect fricken keys.
If the RIAA ever expects the good old days to come back again, they'd better offer something incredible for the money, so far, the best they can do is litigation.
I think firewire will be here soon. Sony is really using it more and more in all of there components. I would think about upgrading my ES receiver if apple and sony both used firewire. I think this would be sweet. Imagine how easy it would be to hook up a computer to your HDTV set with a firewire port from your computer to your receiver...that's it, one cable...and there would be no need for a DVD player anymore, unless you have a mega changer or something.
How cool would it be to have total control over your AV system with your computer (over the firewire cable)? Imagine if could comunicate with your receiver to change inputs (TV, radio, computer) Hell then you could perhaps use your computer as a Tivo...all with picture in picture via your blue tooth keyboard and mouse, while your computer is inside the cabinet.
I can see my money dwindling as I type. (Maybe my post has drifted off topic a bit and stupid)
I have no high demands for Apple in the Audio division... I'm an Audio Production major trying to finance a mac and the only thing i think a mac really should have right NOW is 24 bit mini jack so i can plug my expensive headphones in and warrant the expense instead of paying almost as much for a sonica that steals a USB port... 5.1 and beyond would be nice but in reality maybe only a few high end audio geeks would be able to take advantage of it at least until a few years when multichannel audio formats and standards are locked down... which apple is on its way already in doing...
<strong>I have no high demands for Apple in the Audio division... I'm an Audio Production major trying to finance a mac and the only thing i think a mac really should have right NOW is 24 bit mini jack so i can plug my expensive headphones in and warrant the expense instead of paying almost as much for a sonica that steals a USB port... 5.1 and beyond would be nice but in reality maybe only a few high end audio geeks would be able to take advantage of it at least until a few years when multichannel audio formats and standards are locked down... which apple is on its way already in doing...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ahhh, "Ye Olde 'Hi-End-Geeks' argument" ...
If that didn't go out with the infamous "640k oughta be enough for anybody", it certainly has no business haunting the discussion in this home entertainment cable spaghetti age of ours ...
Comments
<strong>
24-bit/192KHz would be nice...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
FWIW - 24bit/192k is a kind of holy grail of audio, a format that can finally (with almost complete certainty) store and carry audio better than the human ear can hear ... (there's many many other factors in the audio chain that come into play of course, but finally, at least this one, storage - which has almost always the biggest buggaboo since the Edison Cylinder - has at last gone "clear" ... and thanks to this, we'll at last get to hear all the other crud that's been hiding in the audio chain ... but I digress).
Hmmmm ... I can't wait to hear the Penderecki Quartet #2 in 24/192 5.1! ...oh, hang on, this is the music industry after all, well, one can dream of course ... I really don't think the industry boffins know what they would have on their hands if people could actually take advantage of their killer home theatre systems with properly mixed, discreete multi-channel monster sound. The pent up demand is getting so great that people might actually want to spend $20 for a shiny piece of plastic again! Oh, but we're still fighting the DVD-A HD-CD wars aren't we? Geeeeeeez!
Well, their's always FireWire800 and Blue Lazer DVD ... let's hope that opportunity isn't blown. Ahhhhh, lossless data and signal communication between all home theatre devices over a single cable in a single format .... will it ever happen, or will the industry find another way to screw this one up?
Anyway ...
[quote]
<strong>It doesn't even have to be TosLink or Coax...S/PDIF connectors can be as simple as two wires...so I think Apple's Pro Speaker jack might actually be capable of the task...
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
As for throwing S/PDIF down a standard coax, you can fake it when necessary (I've done it for years), but it's not a great idea ... you're looking for 90 ohm S/PDIF/AES.EBU digial audio cable for proper safe transmission, which ain't speaker cable ...
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: OverToasty ]</p>
Yes. FireWire is the answer. Are there any boxes we can currently use for this purpose?
However... there is one justifiable reason for why Apple has floundered and now trails nearly all other computer manufactures. The promise of Firewire!
Firewire based audio has been a long time in coming. Yet, if apple anticipates firewire taking the audio industry by storm, then perhaps skipping an intermediate step is reasonable. Maybe they purposely took their lumps, and didn't waste the R@D on toslink, dig-coax, spif, etc. A complete redesign of the audio hardware-interface and drivers is not so cheap even if the final manufacturing cost per unit is low.
The good news is that Firewire audio is almost here (probably). Pioneer has released a receiver and disc player with firewire ports. Unfortunately, it is the only manufacturer thus far. Denon got burned by developing its own multi-channel, RIAA-approved, high-quality digital-sound format.
So I urge everyone to lay the blame at least partially on the RIAA. They have until recently, prohibited the output of better-than-CD digital sound from all DVD-A and SACD players. If they weren't so hell bent on maintaining absolute control of the digital content you purchased, electronic manufactures would have already settled on the next generation audio interconnect. El cheapo cd players and receivers from Circuit City would have firewire ports (or one of the earlier interconnect standards. Instead, you go and buy the best audio player on the planet and what do you have to do? Plug it in via 6 analog RCA cords.
If Apple was really paying attention to digital audio and consumer electronics, they probably realized that the RIAA was going to destroy our current standards. Might as well wait...
<strong>Firewire based audio has been a long time in coming. Yet, if apple anticipates firewire taking the audio industry by storm, then perhaps skipping an intermediate step is reasonable. Maybe they purposely took their lumps, and didn't waste the R@D on toslink, dig-coax, spif, etc. A complete redesign of the audio hardware-interface and drivers is not so cheap even if the final manufacturing cost per unit is low.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is true.
Also, keep in mind that just because Apple chooses to go FireWire out doesn't mean that it will be impossible to hook their audio out to whatever you want. I don't doubt that M-Audio or Griffin will step right up and offer FW-to-whatever-you-want bridges. It'll be long enough before FireWire is common in home audio that the payoff on the product development is almost guaranteed.
That way, Apple gets to have 7.1 channel out through a single, small port that millions of their customers already have (and that doesn't take up one side of an iBook), there's a big Third Party Opportunity™ to keep the Mac market alive and well, and home users can still use RCA or S/PDIF or whatever plugs into the equipment they've already invested in.
[quote]<strong>So I urge everyone to lay the blame at least partially on the RIAA.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gladly.
</rant>
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
<a href="http://www.tcelectronic.com/static.asp?pid=757"; target="_blank">DICE II Firewire Audio chipset</a>
I'm pretty freakin' pissed at Yamaha right now for their lack of focus on mLAN. However they've never been good at pushing new tech to the masses.
My hope now reside with TC Electronic who also happens to be a mLAN Partner.
<strong>Mitsubishi's NetCommand is nothing more than HAVi, which uses...yup, you guessed it...Firewire.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unfortunately I've never hooked up anything via FireWire to my parents' set. All three NetCommand ports are 4-pin. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
I wonder if I can hook-up my DV camera? I'd need a 4-4 cable though...
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
<strong>
However... there is one justifiable reason for why Apple has floundered and now trails nearly all other computer manufactures. The promise of Firewire!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So how about giving us a digital out now and dropping it after a Firewire is as pervasive as it should be? Frankly they should have put a digital out on Macs a long time ago, maybe even before PCs had them. While Apple should try and lead the pack it shouldn't be so far ahead on things which require connection to other peripherals (USB 2.0 anyone?)
Now it's one of two connect systems allowed: FireWire and DVI. Since DVI only carries video, FW is seen as *THE* home system unifier.
Patience, young grasshoppers...
<strong>So how about giving us a digital out now and dropping it after a Firewire is as pervasive as it should be?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Riiiiiiiight. And then they have to support said connector for 20 years.
<strong>
So how about giving us a digital out now and dropping it after a Firewire is as pervasive as it should be?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why, when they can get FireWire running, immediately giving lots of already-purchased Macs the ability to do better-than-16 bit-stereo sound, and either offer a FW-to-something-else converter themselves, or see that D-Link or Griffin does?
It wouldn't be any more cumbersome than offering a digital out, since so many external speaker systems and stereo components use analog. I'd have to use a converter to plug a Mac into my stereo regardless of whether it was S/PDIF out or FireWire out, so why not go with FireWire? It's already out there on millions of Macs. Including mine. Not that that biases my argument at all.
<strong>
It wouldn't be any more cumbersome than offering a digital out, since so many external speaker systems and stereo components use analog. I'd have to use a converter to plug a Mac into my stereo regardless of whether it was S/PDIF out or FireWire out, so why not go with FireWire? It's already out there on millions of Macs. Including mine. Not that that biases my argument at all.
Guys, I know a lot of you probably already know this, but so far nobody has said it, so allow me:
S/PDIF sux, it's a late 80's relic ... it carries dual channel digital audio ... well whoopdi-fricken'-doo.
Song names? Nope:
Media Meta data (EQ, Mix type, run times, etc etc?): Nope
Gear Negotiation data?: Nope
Just a plain vanilla Stereo stream, that can be de-coded for lesser resolution discreet 5.1 at your leasure; thru any one of many incompatible 5.1 formats.
Apples' gotta do this right:
FW800, so the connectors don't fry your powerBook's Mobo by accident if you connect with the power on, and also so HDTV bandwidth isn't an issue.
Needless to say, this standard should NOT be just audio, it should be for video and audio, and the gear negotiates with each other as required, including any encryted copy protect fricken keys.
If the RIAA ever expects the good old days to come back again, they'd better offer something incredible for the money, so far, the best they can do is litigation.
How cool would it be to have total control over your AV system with your computer (over the firewire cable)? Imagine if could comunicate with your receiver to change inputs (TV, radio, computer) Hell then you could perhaps use your computer as a Tivo...all with picture in picture via your blue tooth keyboard and mouse, while your computer is inside the cabinet.
I can see my money dwindling as I type. (Maybe my post has drifted off topic a bit and stupid)
<strong>I have no high demands for Apple in the Audio division... I'm an Audio Production major trying to finance a mac and the only thing i think a mac really should have right NOW is 24 bit mini jack so i can plug my expensive headphones in and warrant the expense instead of paying almost as much for a sonica that steals a USB port... 5.1 and beyond would be nice but in reality maybe only a few high end audio geeks would be able to take advantage of it at least until a few years when multichannel audio formats and standards are locked down... which apple is on its way already in doing...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ahhh, "Ye Olde 'Hi-End-Geeks' argument" ...
If that didn't go out with the infamous "640k oughta be enough for anybody", it certainly has no business haunting the discussion in this home entertainment cable spaghetti age of ours ...
Unix on Mac's?!?!?!
That'll be the day ...
[Edit: fricken' spellin']
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: OverToasty ]</p>