DaveGee is right: At the show, he showed how you could do it, then (after saying something like we don't have the time to watch this happen, etc.) took out a disk that he had already burned, and showed how that would work.
i think an apple-driven encoder/decoder chip would come out on the high-end side of things, hence i kind of agree with we might have to see this year or next year's NAB to see what they pull
for the lower end (eg. existing G4 machines and iMac line) it is possible that someone in the Elgato-like arena, possibly Elgato or Plextor themselves, will offer a external usb/firewire h.264 encoder/decoder box which will offer you some real nice hardware number crunching to handle all your h.264 stuff.
i am a little surprised that ati and nvidia haven't jumped in on this... i could be wrong but i could swear in current hardware mpeg-2 decoding is at least somewhat helped along by the GPU
maybe if ati and nvidia get their minds of 3D for just a fraction of a second and think about 2D, specifically, h.264
but i think i'm the minority that cares much more about optimising a GPU to drive decode/encode of 1080p in real-time than "5 zillion trillion polygons with trilinear anisotropic filtering with multiple-vertext radiosity raytraced super-enhanced sub-pixel antialiasing" actually maybe i'm secretly craving an Alienware PC gaming machine... i haven't CounterStrike'd at the ol' internet cafe in a while....
i think an apple-driven encoder/decoder chip would come out on the high-end side of things, hence i kind of agree with we might have to see this year or next year's NAB to see what they pull
for the lower end (eg. existing G4 machines and iMac line) it is possible that someone in the Elgato-like arena, possibly Elgato or Plextor themselves, will offer a external usb/firewire h.264 encoder/decoder box which will offer you some real nice hardware number crunching to handle all your h.264 stuff.
i am a little surprised that ati and nvidia haven't jumped in on this... i could be wrong but i could swear in current hardware mpeg-2 decoding is at least somewhat helped along by the GPU
maybe if ati and nvidia get their minds of 3D for just a fraction of a second and think about 2D, specifically, h.264
but i think i'm the minority that cares much more about optimising a GPU to drive decode/encode of 1080p in real-time than "5 zillion trillion polygons with trilinear anisotropic filtering with multiple-vertext radiosity raytraced super-enhanced sub-pixel antialiasing" actually maybe i'm secretly craving an Alienware PC gaming machine... i haven't CounterStrike'd at the ol' internet cafe in a while....
Well, video codec performance is becoming increasingly mainstream given the popularity of BitTorrent. You know it's catching on when your mom asks if she can copy TiVo programs to her PC (last week).
h264 is desperately slow. A 2-pass DVD rip on a 1.5GHz PB will take you roughly 24 hours. Playback takes some guts as well, but nothing that modern hardware can't handle. Wouldn't dare hand it to a G3, though. And, yes, the results are amazing - half the file size for comparable quality to DivX, etc. Computational needs aside, it's easy to see why Apple is so excited about h264.
Modern GPUs should be able to take on some codec encoding functions, but you need to get the data back, so you really need PCI-E. ATI/Nvidea don't need to jump on the bandwagon since they've provided generalized support for decode for the OS to glom onto. So, I imagine Apple already has the GPU carrying some of the load in Tiger via Core Image/Video and MS will soon have it in Longhorn in a decade or two.
The capture guys (ElGato, etc.) will almost certainly do encode in their box at some point but realtime 720x480 h264 encoding hardware isn't exactly widely available or cheap. Apple is relatively ahead of the game here. The key being that they need to claim as much real-estate as they can before the market hunts them down.
Well, video codec performance is becoming increasingly mainstream given the popularity of BitTorrent. You know it's catching on when your mom asks if she can copy TiVo programs to her PC (last week)......
......
hell yeah. let's just say where i am living the satellite operator's a bit slow on
Alias (my dad: "where's the latest season 4 episode" ??)
Bold and Beautiful (my mom: "umm.. i just wanna see the latest one from the US so i know what's going to happen")
Quote:
Originally posted by johnsonwax
.... Apple is relatively ahead of the game here. The key being that they need to claim as much real-estate as they can before the market hunts them down. .....
yeah agreed... the interesting point is that its ahead on h.264 not to sell encode/decode chipsets but its core product lines.
sadly i suspect that in 1-2 years everyone and his dog will be making encode/decode h.264 chipsets, and most people on the bandwagon would have forgotten that apple started it all. but the time is ripe for this. like the guy that made BitTorrent said, the studios have no clue, no clue whatsoever what is going on. once early adopters get into h.264, bitTorrent is really going to explode... the movie studios and tv producers will then be left scratching their heads on.... hmm why didn't we come up with legal downloadable video content earlier? oh yeah 'coz they were waiting for microsoft media center and longho'
TI announced some new DSPs last year that were supposed to offer 4X the processing ability of the previous generation of chips at 1/2 the cost. I do not know any of the details about them, but it would seem that somebody needs to come out with a PCI (X) card that can process things in "real time" rather than sucking up all of the CPU cycles 'forever' to encode things.
P.S. There seems to be a 2 GB limitation on file size that will play in QT 6 and in burning ISO/UDF discs that can be read by various and sundry DVD players. There are some players which currently claim to be able to play MPEG4 files which can not (their initials are Philips Electronics) which screws up trying to hardware encode things as smaller files with devices such as EyeTV.
looks like Apple at NAB is going hardcore into high-def video software area with Final Cut Studio Hi-Def...
as we suspected, their gonna push HD and h.264 for two immediate objectives:
1. increase software sales
2. boost interest in somewhat ailing PowerMac G5 line
the PowerMac G5 is their encoder chip
PS. you can network your G5s for a encoding/render farm!! damn, apple is smart. while other tech companies stumble to come up with an encoding solution, apple is gonna drive selling both software and the PowerMac g5 hardware, but aiming at the pro video line... (pro graphic design line has seemed to have fallen off a bit to windows pc line, that's why i think they're pushing the video angle hardcore)
" Distributed encoding tools included in DVD Studio Pro 4 tap the power of networked Macintosh® computers to dramatically reduce encoding time for high definition projects"
looks like Apple at NAB is going hardcore into high-def video software area with Final Cut Studio Hi-Def...
as we suspected, their gonna push HD and h.264 for two immediate objectives:
1. increase software sales
2. boost interest in somewhat ailing PowerMac G5 line
the PowerMac G5 is their encoder chip
PS. you can network your G5s for a encoding/render farm!! damn, apple is smart. while other tech companies stumble to come up with an encoding solution, apple is gonna drive selling both software and the PowerMac g5 hardware, but aiming at the pro video line... (pro graphic design line has seemed to have fallen off a bit to windows pc line, that's why i think they're pushing the video angle hardcore)
" Distributed encoding tools included in DVD Studio Pro 4 tap the power of networked Macintosh® computers to dramatically reduce encoding time for high definition projects"
Maybe so. We'll see.
G5s still do not seem to be a cost effective means of encoding files.
nah my gut instinct is apple will give it as thinksecret suggests a few weeks for the NAB dust to settle and sink in. then either
1. bring out new G5s along the lines of thinksecret specs to fuel powermac g5 and apple video-software and tiger sales (synergy!!?!!)
2. bring out some big guns at WWDC in june
1. is more likely as a nice rounding off of new apple video-software and tiger launch....
i do imagine that they want to capitalise on tiger software hype and lock in some hardware sales with that, so some updates end of april on powermac g5, maybe imac g5, maybe eMac...
edit: it's POLL TIME?? !!111!!?? oh no, i'm starting to use 111s in my !!!!s
yeah, i know, its not for consumers, its for broadcasters
So is it possible that Apple could include a special chip that would not break the bank and would offer support for the Cores as well as H.264 encoding, be it Raycer derived or other? Would that maybe be a cell chip? And I do not want to get into the argument about Cell verses a General processor like PPC9xx. Is a PCI-e video card enough? H.264 taking 24+ hrs to encode with 2 pass is crazy long. How will Apple speed this up? If Apple announces new PowerMacs in June and ships them in July, which would be normal, then Apple may be able to include a cell chip for encoding. If apple had dual cores and cell then the encoding time may be somewhere around 4 to 2 hrs which would be great, and would help sales of PowerMacs for encoding of H.264. Thoughts?
So is it possible that Apple could include a special chip that would not break the bank and would offer support for the Cores as well as H.264 encoding, be it Raycer derived or other? Would that maybe be a cell chip? And I do not want to get into the argument about Cell verses a General processor like PPC9xx. Is a PCI-e video card enough? H.264 taking 24+ hrs to encode with 2 pass is crazy long. How will Apple speed this up? If Apple announces new PowerMacs in June and ships them in July, which would be normal, then Apple may be able to include a cell chip for encoding. If apple had dual cores and cell then the encoding time may be somewhere around 4 to 2 hrs which would be great, and would help sales of PowerMacs for encoding of H.264. Thoughts?
IMHO this is 1 of 2 things holding back Apple from a full-blown H.264 platform for consumers including downloadable video-on-demand... no. 2 is putting the finishing touches to Tiger.
no. 1 holding back Apple from offering this consumer H.264 is decoding... you want to keep encoding to the pros, and you want them to buy PowerMac G5s... dual core, etc, yes, that will help encoding times... on the decoding side, my guess is for pure-decode in hardware, you don't have to go hardcore with another cell chip or anything, either some GPU-level extra chipset or some sort of hardware 'module' dedicated to h.264/mpeg4 is all you would need.
consumers are clamouring but one reason why Apple has been successfully profitable for several years now is that they don't rush to market unless they really know what they're doing and they've made a decent guess how it affects their bottom line.
they will wait and see how powermac g5 and tiger and some updated hardware flows through this year, before considering rolling out h.264 chipsets(?) of some sort and video-on-demand, if ever....
H.264 is just a variation on MPEG4. There are existing chipsets that support (real time) encoding of analog signals to MPEG4 for the Mac (and DivX for WinTel boxes) as well as the ubiquitous analog to digital MPEG2 encoders.
General purpose processors are not only not needed for such operations, but are undesirable because they are inefficient, both in terms of cost and time involved.
I can see no good reason that a DSP can not be used to produce a consumer price point device to encode H.264 from a variety of sources. (It seems that the cable companies are committed to outputting programming as either analog or degraded digital content as a part of their 'deal with the devil'.
Software encoding is just terrible when one considers the amount of time and resources required to accomplish the desired result.
Software encoding is just terrible when one considers the amount of time and resources required to accomplish the desired result.
exactly. this is why the industry for the most part will not encourage real-time encoding of h.264... they want to keep the consumers on the decoding, viewing side, and keep the pros on the production side.
keeping consumers more on the decoding, viewing only side will keep them from ripping/sharing/etc/etc - you know, the mentality of the content providers...
exactly. this is why the industry for the most part will not encourage real-time encoding of h.264... they want to keep the consumers on the decoding, viewing side, and keep the pros on the production side.
keeping consumers more on the decoding, viewing only side will keep them from ripping/sharing/etc/etc - you know, the mentality of the content providers...
I think it to be simpler than that. Existing encoding devices can probably be H.264 enabled with a firmware update (where possible) or by manufacturing a device with new firmware. The power of DSPs continues to rise on a performance versus price comparison.
I think it to be simpler than that. Existing encoding devices can probably be H.264 enabled with a firmware update (where possible) or by manufacturing a device with new firmware. The power of DSPs continues to rise on a performance versus price comparison.
yeah the ol' firmware-crippling-technique
but you are right, this could be a better approach for a lot of DSPs... rather than worry about making and supporting two separate product streams (decode only/ decode+encode), just work on your main product stream and then cripple to decode only on the consumer side via firmware.
Comments
Hope Springs Eternal,
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
for the lower end (eg. existing G4 machines and iMac line) it is possible that someone in the Elgato-like arena, possibly Elgato or Plextor themselves, will offer a external usb/firewire h.264 encoder/decoder box which will offer you some real nice hardware number crunching to handle all your h.264 stuff.
i am a little surprised that ati and nvidia haven't jumped in on this... i could be wrong but i could swear in current hardware mpeg-2 decoding is at least somewhat helped along by the GPU
maybe if ati and nvidia get their minds of 3D for just a fraction of a second
but i think i'm the minority that cares much more about optimising a GPU to drive decode/encode of 1080p in real-time than "5 zillion trillion polygons with trilinear anisotropic filtering with multiple-vertext radiosity raytraced super-enhanced sub-pixel antialiasing"
Originally posted by sunilraman
i think an apple-driven encoder/decoder chip would come out on the high-end side of things, hence i kind of agree with we might have to see this year or next year's NAB to see what they pull
for the lower end (eg. existing G4 machines and iMac line) it is possible that someone in the Elgato-like arena, possibly Elgato or Plextor themselves, will offer a external usb/firewire h.264 encoder/decoder box which will offer you some real nice hardware number crunching to handle all your h.264 stuff.
i am a little surprised that ati and nvidia haven't jumped in on this... i could be wrong but i could swear in current hardware mpeg-2 decoding is at least somewhat helped along by the GPU
maybe if ati and nvidia get their minds of 3D for just a fraction of a second
but i think i'm the minority that cares much more about optimising a GPU to drive decode/encode of 1080p in real-time than "5 zillion trillion polygons with trilinear anisotropic filtering with multiple-vertext radiosity raytraced super-enhanced sub-pixel antialiasing"
Well, video codec performance is becoming increasingly mainstream given the popularity of BitTorrent. You know it's catching on when your mom asks if she can copy TiVo programs to her PC (last week).
h264 is desperately slow. A 2-pass DVD rip on a 1.5GHz PB will take you roughly 24 hours. Playback takes some guts as well, but nothing that modern hardware can't handle. Wouldn't dare hand it to a G3, though. And, yes, the results are amazing - half the file size for comparable quality to DivX, etc. Computational needs aside, it's easy to see why Apple is so excited about h264.
Modern GPUs should be able to take on some codec encoding functions, but you need to get the data back, so you really need PCI-E. ATI/Nvidea don't need to jump on the bandwagon since they've provided generalized support for decode for the OS to glom onto. So, I imagine Apple already has the GPU carrying some of the load in Tiger via Core Image/Video and MS will soon have it in Longhorn in a decade or two.
The capture guys (ElGato, etc.) will almost certainly do encode in their box at some point but realtime 720x480 h264 encoding hardware isn't exactly widely available or cheap. Apple is relatively ahead of the game here. The key being that they need to claim as much real-estate as they can before the market hunts them down.
Originally posted by johnsonwax
Well, video codec performance is becoming increasingly mainstream given the popularity of BitTorrent. You know it's catching on when your mom asks if she can copy TiVo programs to her PC (last week)......
......
hell yeah. let's just say where i am living the satellite operator's a bit slow on
Alias (my dad: "where's the latest season 4 episode" ??)
Bold and Beautiful (my mom: "umm.. i just wanna see the latest one from the US so i know what's going to happen")
Originally posted by johnsonwax
.... Apple is relatively ahead of the game here. The key being that they need to claim as much real-estate as they can before the market hunts them down. .....
yeah agreed... the interesting point is that its ahead on h.264 not to sell encode/decode chipsets but its core product lines.
sadly i suspect that in 1-2 years everyone and his dog will be making encode/decode h.264 chipsets, and most people on the bandwagon would have forgotten that apple started it all. but the time is ripe for this. like the guy that made BitTorrent said, the studios have no clue, no clue whatsoever what is going on. once early adopters get into h.264, bitTorrent is really going to explode... the movie studios and tv producers will then be left scratching their heads on.... hmm why didn't we come up with legal downloadable video content earlier? oh yeah 'coz they were waiting for microsoft media center and longho'
H.264 hardware isn't a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Apple's ahead of the curve. Again.
P.S. There seems to be a 2 GB limitation on file size that will play in QT 6 and in burning ISO/UDF discs that can be read by various and sundry DVD players. There are some players which currently claim to be able to play MPEG4 files which can not (their initials are Philips Electronics) which screws up trying to hardware encode things as smaller files with devices such as EyeTV.
as we suspected, their gonna push HD and h.264 for two immediate objectives:
1. increase software sales
2. boost interest in somewhat ailing PowerMac G5 line
the PowerMac G5 is their encoder chip
PS. you can network your G5s for a encoding/render farm!! damn, apple is smart. while other tech companies stumble to come up with an encoding solution, apple is gonna drive selling both software and the PowerMac g5 hardware, but aiming at the pro video line... (pro graphic design line has seemed to have fallen off a bit to windows pc line, that's why i think they're pushing the video angle hardcore)
" Distributed encoding tools included in DVD Studio Pro 4 tap the power of networked Macintosh® computers to dramatically reduce encoding time for high definition projects"
Originally posted by sunilraman
looks like Apple at NAB is going hardcore into high-def video software area with Final Cut Studio Hi-Def...
as we suspected, their gonna push HD and h.264 for two immediate objectives:
1. increase software sales
2. boost interest in somewhat ailing PowerMac G5 line
the PowerMac G5 is their encoder chip
PS. you can network your G5s for a encoding/render farm!! damn, apple is smart. while other tech companies stumble to come up with an encoding solution, apple is gonna drive selling both software and the PowerMac g5 hardware, but aiming at the pro video line... (pro graphic design line has seemed to have fallen off a bit to windows pc line, that's why i think they're pushing the video angle hardcore)
" Distributed encoding tools included in DVD Studio Pro 4 tap the power of networked Macintosh® computers to dramatically reduce encoding time for high definition projects"
Maybe so. We'll see.
G5s still do not seem to be a cost effective means of encoding files.
Originally posted by RBR
Maybe so. We'll see.
G5s still do not seem to be a cost effective means of encoding files.
valid point... they need to get some g5s moving this quarter though, the next major announcement on g5s is probably WWDC.... hence their strategy
i can't even afford a Mac mini at this stage, luckily my iBook has 1.5 years full applecare left on it
Originally posted by RBR
...
G5s still do not seem to be a cost effective means of encoding files.
umm i think this real-time full-HD avc encoder costs as much as a g5
http://www.modulusvideo.com/main.php...801daf64c3999a
yeah, i know, its not for consumers, its for broadcasters
Originally posted by nathan22t
G5's tomorrow
nah my gut instinct is apple will give it as thinksecret suggests a few weeks for the NAB dust to settle and sink in. then either
1. bring out new G5s along the lines of thinksecret specs to fuel powermac g5 and apple video-software and tiger sales (synergy!!?!!)
2. bring out some big guns at WWDC in june
1. is more likely as a nice rounding off of new apple video-software and tiger launch....
i do imagine that they want to capitalise on tiger software hype and lock in some hardware sales with that, so some updates end of april on powermac g5, maybe imac g5, maybe eMac...
edit: it's POLL TIME?? !!111!!?? oh no, i'm starting to use 111s in my !!!!s
Originally posted by sunilraman
umm i think this real-time full-HD avc encoder costs as much as a g5
http://www.modulusvideo.com/main.php...801daf64c3999a
yeah, i know, its not for consumers, its for broadcasters
So is it possible that Apple could include a special chip that would not break the bank and would offer support for the Cores as well as H.264 encoding, be it Raycer derived or other? Would that maybe be a cell chip? And I do not want to get into the argument about Cell verses a General processor like PPC9xx. Is a PCI-e video card enough? H.264 taking 24+ hrs to encode with 2 pass is crazy long. How will Apple speed this up? If Apple announces new PowerMacs in June and ships them in July, which would be normal, then Apple may be able to include a cell chip for encoding. If apple had dual cores and cell then the encoding time may be somewhere around 4 to 2 hrs which would be great, and would help sales of PowerMacs for encoding of H.264. Thoughts?
Originally posted by Brendon
So is it possible that Apple could include a special chip that would not break the bank and would offer support for the Cores as well as H.264 encoding, be it Raycer derived or other? Would that maybe be a cell chip? And I do not want to get into the argument about Cell verses a General processor like PPC9xx. Is a PCI-e video card enough? H.264 taking 24+ hrs to encode with 2 pass is crazy long. How will Apple speed this up? If Apple announces new PowerMacs in June and ships them in July, which would be normal, then Apple may be able to include a cell chip for encoding. If apple had dual cores and cell then the encoding time may be somewhere around 4 to 2 hrs which would be great, and would help sales of PowerMacs for encoding of H.264. Thoughts?
IMHO this is 1 of 2 things holding back Apple from a full-blown H.264 platform for consumers including downloadable video-on-demand... no. 2 is putting the finishing touches to Tiger.
no. 1 holding back Apple from offering this consumer H.264 is decoding... you want to keep encoding to the pros, and you want them to buy PowerMac G5s... dual core, etc, yes, that will help encoding times... on the decoding side, my guess is for pure-decode in hardware, you don't have to go hardcore with another cell chip or anything, either some GPU-level extra chipset or some sort of hardware 'module' dedicated to h.264/mpeg4 is all you would need.
consumers are clamouring but one reason why Apple has been successfully profitable for several years now is that they don't rush to market unless they really know what they're doing and they've made a decent guess how it affects their bottom line.
they will wait and see how powermac g5 and tiger and some updated hardware flows through this year, before considering rolling out h.264 chipsets(?) of some sort and video-on-demand, if ever....
I agree that encoding will remain in software.
Originally posted by wmf
I agree that encoding will remain in software.
Why?
H.264 is just a variation on MPEG4. There are existing chipsets that support (real time) encoding of analog signals to MPEG4 for the Mac (and DivX for WinTel boxes) as well as the ubiquitous analog to digital MPEG2 encoders.
General purpose processors are not only not needed for such operations, but are undesirable because they are inefficient, both in terms of cost and time involved.
I can see no good reason that a DSP can not be used to produce a consumer price point device to encode H.264 from a variety of sources. (It seems that the cable companies are committed to outputting programming as either analog or degraded digital content as a part of their 'deal with the devil'.
Software encoding is just terrible when one considers the amount of time and resources required to accomplish the desired result.
Originally posted by RBR
Why?
......
Software encoding is just terrible when one considers the amount of time and resources required to accomplish the desired result.
exactly. this is why the industry for the most part will not encourage real-time encoding of h.264... they want to keep the consumers on the decoding, viewing side, and keep the pros on the production side.
keeping consumers more on the decoding, viewing only side will keep them from ripping/sharing/etc/etc - you know, the mentality of the content providers...
Originally posted by sunilraman
exactly. this is why the industry for the most part will not encourage real-time encoding of h.264... they want to keep the consumers on the decoding, viewing side, and keep the pros on the production side.
keeping consumers more on the decoding, viewing only side will keep them from ripping/sharing/etc/etc - you know, the mentality of the content providers...
I think it to be simpler than that. Existing encoding devices can probably be H.264 enabled with a firmware update (where possible) or by manufacturing a device with new firmware. The power of DSPs continues to rise on a performance versus price comparison.
Originally posted by RBR
I think it to be simpler than that. Existing encoding devices can probably be H.264 enabled with a firmware update (where possible) or by manufacturing a device with new firmware. The power of DSPs continues to rise on a performance versus price comparison.
yeah the ol' firmware-crippling-technique
but you are right, this could be a better approach for a lot of DSPs... rather than worry about making and supporting two separate product streams (decode only/ decode+encode), just work on your main product stream and then cripple to decode only on the consumer side via firmware.