AGree with THT, disagree with Ted and everyone else who thinks they are going to release new technologies at WWDC in 5 weeks.
Apple would completely KILL their new updated Powermac sales if the a new technology was released. The only people that would buy are the one the ones that needed the machine RIGHT NOW.
Everyone thinks there is some magic to programming for dual core chips and apple will do a big event on it. Sorry, That was the case when the dual 400 g4's came out. There isn't any difference in coding style (except for the OS 9 -> OS X transition). My point is, the developers already know it. And if they don't they can go grab "UNIX Systems Programming 1 and 2" for piping / multi-threading / SMT etc etc. The same code can be used from Dual Processor to Dual Core. The ones that REALLY need the power, would have an Apple Developer Associates account and get free tech support any ways. So NO they are not going to release new technologies at WWDC.
This is a very disappointing year so far. I waited and waited for 2 things. Powerbook updates and Powermac updates. Both were the most minor updates I've ever seen from apple. This is good and bad. The good, this usually signifies the end of a product's life cycle. The bad, sales go down as more people wait, and the ones that need a machine at that instance get screwed.
Now I have to make a very difficult dicision. Do I sell my 3.6ghz p4 (oc'd to 4.0ghz WITH PCI-Express) for a laptop and get a dual 2.3g5. Or do I break down and get a 1.67ghz powerbook with 128mb vram and keep my PC. I think if I do the later I'm going to be on my pc MORE.
This is really a shame, I don't blame apple 100% either. I'm sure they have something juicy on the table for the next update. So it wouldn't have made sense to update these motherboards with PCI-Express for this 1 update cycle... unless they could have made the motherboards completely compatible with the next updates.
Its simply a shame, I have to figure out what I'm going to do cause not having a mac is killing me!
I disagree, If they preview dual core at WWDC and release in Sept. then there will be huge press over this event. Now, if you want a powermac you can buy one that is faster than what had been out. Right now it still looks like apple is producing faster units albeit only 200mhz faster.
Some of those who were waiting will buy and it will give apple a chance to clear inventory of whatever. On the other hand, apple could release dual core at WWDC and keep the lineup that isn't dual core the same.
If they preview it, then Apple is willing to give up sales of this upcoming Power Mac revision. There would be a considerable sales drop. I don't think that is very good business at all.
Originally posted by Mark- Card Carrying FanaticRealist
It's incredibly unlikely that these systems will be any kind of quantum leap, however I'm now of the opinion that Apple will preview the so-called xStation at WWDC, making it available to developers within four weeks prior to more general availability for October 2005. . .
Good call. I've been thinking we may get an Xstation introduced at WWDC. It would be a quad G5, dual 970MP processors. (I mentioned it in another thread.) If this turns out to be true, it gives us hope that the upcoming "speed bump" may be a better upgrade than most of us have been expecting.
Earlier, someone made a very valid point. Why put much engineering into a temporary upgrade that will be replaced within a few months? However, if the dual core chips are going into an Xstation, this next Power Mac upgrade may be around for quite a while, selling along side the more expensive Xstation. In that case, a new motherboard would be reasonable. If so, what can we hope for?
I think PCI Express and air cooling for the 970FX CPUs are a possibility. Eventually the Power Macs may get a single 970MP rather than two 970FX chips, but that could happen anytime down the road, whenever the time is right for Apple and IBM.
So my take is this: If we see a really nice upgrade soon, than hopes are high for an Xstation at WWDC. If the upgrade is very Oh Hum, then we can expect the dual core Power Macs by September, and maybe or maybe not an Xstation.
I rather think they are waiting for cards in their key markets. I have no knowledge of hollywood and audio PCI cards but how many have actually switched over to PCI-e?
I have no doubt they're watching the market and if they haven't upgraded I expect they have a pretty decent reason beyond being cheap. PCI-e does actually simplify board design and give them more freedom.
Everything is being switched over to now. If there is a Mac only board, they can't switch until Apple has the machines in place.
Viseo cards are already out. The highest end cards, not just the game cards such as the 6800 and the 800, are moving over to Express.
While these cards don't have a big performance gap over the AGP cards as yet, Express allows for a much greater improvement than AGP, which has reached it's end of life. 16 pipes vs. 8.
Express also has up to 4 times the throughput of the PCI 2.1 now being used.
There uis also marketing.
You can read what is being said here. On a Mac board. Imagine what is being said on PC boards. How can Apple hope to capture more PC users, esp. at the high end, if they are behind AND more expensive? It ain't gonna happen.
After all is said and done, I'd be ecstatic if they just added an IMC to the 970, reduced power demands with low-k dialectrics and implemented SDOI, or introduced a G4 with Rapid I/O, oh wait, never mind, my imagination got the best of me.
I fear I won't be able to aford a dual core chip even when they ship and dual duals will be way out of my range. Actually, for the price range, the dual G5's at 2.7Ghz will still be competative, maybe not the fastest, but still hanging in the ballpark, and in some niche areas still will be faster than the competition.
I'm typically inclined to doom and gloom, but not in this instance. Here's why:
- This update is purely a parts bin swap, nothing more. Apple just fills the CPU bins with slightly faster CPUs, changes the bus multiplier ratio, and then swaps out the Superdrive bins. That's it. This update took only slightly more effort on Apple's part than restocking the bins with the same old parts.
- No muthaboard changes now suggests that Apple has something cooking in their labs that will blow us all away. Why invest resources into the old 970fx when the new 970mp Powermacs are just around the corner?
- For the 970mp macs, expect a total makeover; new tower design, new muthaboard, everything.
Apple could have held out another month or two with the old towers, so this suggests to me that the dual core powermacs will arrive in 3-6 months. This update may also serve to move out existing parts for the fx Powermacs, all the old cases and muthaboards need to be moved out to avoid serious losses, which Apple will surely incur since they barely sell any towers to begin with.
So Apple wont be the first with dual core, and that sucks. But they will only be "fashionably late" to the party and when the dual core powermacs arrive, they will totally rock!
After all is said and done, I'd be ecstatic if they just added an IMC to the 970, reduced power demands with low-k dialectrics and implemented SDOI, or introduced a G4 with Rapid I/O, oh wait, never mind, my imagination got the best of me.
I fear I won't be able to aford a dual core chip even when they ship and dual duals will be way out of my range. Actually, for the price range, the dual G5's at 2.7Ghz will still be competative, maybe not the fastest, but still hanging in the ballpark, and in some niche areas still will be faster than the competition.
After all is said and done, the 2.5's are competitive with the Opterons and Xenons. Ahead in some areas, and behind in others.
The 2.7's should make that comparison even better.
After all, the x86 line isn't getting any faster itself. The duals are significantly slower per cpu, and there isn't much software out there as yet to take advantage of it. In many cases where there is an advantage, it is somewhere around 30%, only a very few programs are getting double. some are slightly slower.
A dual 2.7 will more than hold it's own against a single dual core x86, at this time, and we won't see dual duals anywhere except at the very high end for a while.
I'm typically inclined to doom and gloom, but not in this instance. Here's why:
- This update is purely a parts bin swap, nothing more. Apple just fills the CPU bins with slightly faster CPUs, changes the bus multiplier ratio, and then swaps out the Superdrive bins. That's it. This update took only slightly more effort on Apple's part than restocking the bins with the same old parts.
- No muthaboard changes now suggests that Apple has something cooking in their labs that will blow us all away. Why invest resources into the old 970fx when the new 970mp Powermacs are just around the corner?
- For the 970mp macs, expect a total makeover; new tower design, new muthaboard, everything.
I couldn't agree more. This update is purely a parts bin swap.
Apple could very easily be feverishly working on the real next-gen powermacs and still release updates to the current line. I think it makes business sense to release whatever they can right now, and then to release the next-gen box when it's ready. Purposefully using slower CPUs than available doesn't make sense when it's merely a parts bin swap. (Granted, this isn't 100% correct, but it is as close as you can get in system building.)
Apple's release schedule isn't governed by the spec-whores who complain when a faster computer is released.
Do you believe that the 2.7 GHz processors were ready some time now and sitting in an Apple closet? It is clear that the G5 has problems to scale up, like any other comparable CPU in the industry. I would go a little farther saying that it is perhaps EOL.
Quote:
2. The prices should have been lowered (according to amazon they are the same)
I just hope that Amazon was wrong. If the prices remain intact for the expected specifications, it would be really shame for Apple.
Do you believe that the 2.7 GHz processors were ready some time now and sitting in an Apple closet? It is clear that the G5 has problems to scale up, like any other comparable CPU in the industry. I would go a little farther saying that it is perhaps EOL.
the radeon 9800 has been out forever
hell the x800 has been out for a pretty damn long time now
and yet we are messing with the 9600 series in a $3000 machine?
Do you believe that the 2.7 GHz processors were ready some time now and sitting in an Apple closet? It is clear that the G5 has problems to scale up, like any other comparable CPU in the industry. I would go a little farther saying that it is perhaps EOL.
I would be hoping that we would be seeing the GX chips by now. Every time I read about them it seems as though they are doing so well. That they don't have the heat problems the FX's have. If so, where are they.
Yeah, the Fx SHOULD be EOL'd by now. Why isn't it? (rhetorical question)
Maybe these are the GX chips without the water cooling. That, at least, would be something.
hell the x800 has been out for a pretty damn long time now
and yet we are messing with the 9600 series in a $3000 machine?
fuck this shit
Yup, I can't understand why they dropped the 9800 from the upgrade list. At first I thought they were putting it inside their new machines. But I guess not. Too bad.
The 800 or the 6800 would be too expensive to include at this time though.
hell the x800 has been out for a pretty damn long time now
and yet we are messing with the 9600 series in a $3000 machine?
All this is nice and good, but what about the CPU? Apple is not known to do incremental component updates, without raising a little at least the CPU clock (so much about the "MHz myth").
Comments
Originally posted by PB
I dont' see nothing more than the obvious. What are you counting on?
I'm expecting the announcement of either an all new dual core pro series XStation/XServe
or
the answer to " the mother of all thermal challenges "
6 weeks Arghhhhhhh!
Apple would completely KILL their new updated Powermac sales if the a new technology was released. The only people that would buy are the one the ones that needed the machine RIGHT NOW.
Everyone thinks there is some magic to programming for dual core chips and apple will do a big event on it. Sorry, That was the case when the dual 400 g4's came out. There isn't any difference in coding style (except for the OS 9 -> OS X transition). My point is, the developers already know it. And if they don't they can go grab "UNIX Systems Programming 1 and 2" for piping / multi-threading / SMT etc etc. The same code can be used from Dual Processor to Dual Core. The ones that REALLY need the power, would have an Apple Developer Associates account and get free tech support any ways. So NO they are not going to release new technologies at WWDC.
This is a very disappointing year so far. I waited and waited for 2 things. Powerbook updates and Powermac updates. Both were the most minor updates I've ever seen from apple. This is good and bad. The good, this usually signifies the end of a product's life cycle. The bad, sales go down as more people wait, and the ones that need a machine at that instance get screwed.
Now I have to make a very difficult dicision. Do I sell my 3.6ghz p4 (oc'd to 4.0ghz WITH PCI-Express) for a laptop and get a dual 2.3g5. Or do I break down and get a 1.67ghz powerbook with 128mb vram and keep my PC. I think if I do the later I'm going to be on my pc MORE.
This is really a shame, I don't blame apple 100% either. I'm sure they have something juicy on the table for the next update. So it wouldn't have made sense to update these motherboards with PCI-Express for this 1 update cycle... unless they could have made the motherboards completely compatible with the next updates.
Its simply a shame, I have to figure out what I'm going to do cause not having a mac is killing me!
Originally posted by TednDi
I disagree, If they preview dual core at WWDC and release in Sept. then there will be huge press over this event. Now, if you want a powermac you can buy one that is faster than what had been out. Right now it still looks like apple is producing faster units albeit only 200mhz faster.
Some of those who were waiting will buy and it will give apple a chance to clear inventory of whatever. On the other hand, apple could release dual core at WWDC and keep the lineup that isn't dual core the same.
If they preview it, then Apple is willing to give up sales of this upcoming Power Mac revision. There would be a considerable sales drop. I don't think that is very good business at all.
Originally posted by Mark- Card Carrying FanaticRealist
It's incredibly unlikely that these systems will be any kind of quantum leap, however I'm now of the opinion that Apple will preview the so-called xStation at WWDC, making it available to developers within four weeks prior to more general availability for October 2005. . .
Good call. I've been thinking we may get an Xstation introduced at WWDC. It would be a quad G5, dual 970MP processors. (I mentioned it in another thread.) If this turns out to be true, it gives us hope that the upcoming "speed bump" may be a better upgrade than most of us have been expecting.
Earlier, someone made a very valid point. Why put much engineering into a temporary upgrade that will be replaced within a few months? However, if the dual core chips are going into an Xstation, this next Power Mac upgrade may be around for quite a while, selling along side the more expensive Xstation. In that case, a new motherboard would be reasonable. If so, what can we hope for?
I think PCI Express and air cooling for the 970FX CPUs are a possibility. Eventually the Power Macs may get a single 970MP rather than two 970FX chips, but that could happen anytime down the road, whenever the time is right for Apple and IBM.
So my take is this: If we see a really nice upgrade soon, than hopes are high for an Xstation at WWDC. If the upgrade is very Oh Hum, then we can expect the dual core Power Macs by September, and maybe or maybe not an Xstation.
Originally posted by Telomar
I rather think they are waiting for cards in their key markets. I have no knowledge of hollywood and audio PCI cards but how many have actually switched over to PCI-e?
I have no doubt they're watching the market and if they haven't upgraded I expect they have a pretty decent reason beyond being cheap. PCI-e does actually simplify board design and give them more freedom.
Everything is being switched over to now. If there is a Mac only board, they can't switch until Apple has the machines in place.
Viseo cards are already out. The highest end cards, not just the game cards such as the 6800 and the 800, are moving over to Express.
While these cards don't have a big performance gap over the AGP cards as yet, Express allows for a much greater improvement than AGP, which has reached it's end of life. 16 pipes vs. 8.
Express also has up to 4 times the throughput of the PCI 2.1 now being used.
There uis also marketing.
You can read what is being said here. On a Mac board. Imagine what is being said on PC boards. How can Apple hope to capture more PC users, esp. at the high end, if they are behind AND more expensive? It ain't gonna happen.
I fear I won't be able to aford a dual core chip even when they ship and dual duals will be way out of my range. Actually, for the price range, the dual G5's at 2.7Ghz will still be competative, maybe not the fastest, but still hanging in the ballpark, and in some niche areas still will be faster than the competition.
- This update is purely a parts bin swap, nothing more. Apple just fills the CPU bins with slightly faster CPUs, changes the bus multiplier ratio, and then swaps out the Superdrive bins. That's it. This update took only slightly more effort on Apple's part than restocking the bins with the same old parts.
- No muthaboard changes now suggests that Apple has something cooking in their labs that will blow us all away. Why invest resources into the old 970fx when the new 970mp Powermacs are just around the corner?
- For the 970mp macs, expect a total makeover; new tower design, new muthaboard, everything.
Apple could have held out another month or two with the old towers, so this suggests to me that the dual core powermacs will arrive in 3-6 months. This update may also serve to move out existing parts for the fx Powermacs, all the old cases and muthaboards need to be moved out to avoid serious losses, which Apple will surely incur since they barely sell any towers to begin with.
So Apple wont be the first with dual core, and that sucks. But they will only be "fashionably late" to the party and when the dual core powermacs arrive, they will totally rock!
Originally posted by rickag
After all is said and done, I'd be ecstatic if they just added an IMC to the 970, reduced power demands with low-k dialectrics and implemented SDOI, or introduced a G4 with Rapid I/O, oh wait, never mind, my imagination got the best of me.
I fear I won't be able to aford a dual core chip even when they ship and dual duals will be way out of my range. Actually, for the price range, the dual G5's at 2.7Ghz will still be competative, maybe not the fastest, but still hanging in the ballpark, and in some niche areas still will be faster than the competition.
After all is said and done, the 2.5's are competitive with the Opterons and Xenons. Ahead in some areas, and behind in others.
The 2.7's should make that comparison even better.
After all, the x86 line isn't getting any faster itself. The duals are significantly slower per cpu, and there isn't much software out there as yet to take advantage of it. In many cases where there is an advantage, it is somewhere around 30%, only a very few programs are getting double. some are slightly slower.
A dual 2.7 will more than hold it's own against a single dual core x86, at this time, and we won't see dual duals anywhere except at the very high end for a while.
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
I'm typically inclined to doom and gloom, but not in this instance. Here's why:
- This update is purely a parts bin swap, nothing more. Apple just fills the CPU bins with slightly faster CPUs, changes the bus multiplier ratio, and then swaps out the Superdrive bins. That's it. This update took only slightly more effort on Apple's part than restocking the bins with the same old parts.
- No muthaboard changes now suggests that Apple has something cooking in their labs that will blow us all away. Why invest resources into the old 970fx when the new 970mp Powermacs are just around the corner?
- For the 970mp macs, expect a total makeover; new tower design, new muthaboard, everything.
I couldn't agree more. This update is purely a parts bin swap.
Apple could very easily be feverishly working on the real next-gen powermacs and still release updates to the current line. I think it makes business sense to release whatever they can right now, and then to release the next-gen box when it's ready. Purposefully using slower CPUs than available doesn't make sense when it's merely a parts bin swap. (Granted, this isn't 100% correct, but it is as close as you can get in system building.)
Apple's release schedule isn't governed by the spec-whores who complain when a faster computer is released.
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
- For the 970mp macs, expect a total makeover; new tower design, new muthaboard, everything.
Well, an internal revision at least. Look at how long they kept rearranging the innards in old Yosemite.
Originally posted by BrunoBruin
Well, an internal revision at least. Look at how long they kept rearranging the innards in old Yosemite.
The only thing I'd like to see different on a new case is at least two external bays, and four internal.
1. they should have done it sooner.
2. The prices should have been lowered (according to amazon they are the same)
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
How about a black anondized aluminum tower with dark red highlights? :P
Well, maybe without the highlights. I don't want it to look like one of those ugly PC game mods.
Originally posted by emig647
1. they should have done it sooner.
Do you believe that the 2.7 GHz processors were ready some time now and sitting in an Apple closet? It is clear that the G5 has problems to scale up, like any other comparable CPU in the industry. I would go a little farther saying that it is perhaps EOL.
2. The prices should have been lowered (according to amazon they are the same)
I just hope that Amazon was wrong. If the prices remain intact for the expected specifications, it would be really shame for Apple.
Originally posted by emig647
My gripes for this update just being a parts swap is:
1. they should have done it sooner.
2. The prices should have been lowered (according to amazon they are the same)
3. the parts suck
Originally posted by PB
Do you believe that the 2.7 GHz processors were ready some time now and sitting in an Apple closet? It is clear that the G5 has problems to scale up, like any other comparable CPU in the industry. I would go a little farther saying that it is perhaps EOL.
the radeon 9800 has been out forever
hell the x800 has been out for a pretty damn long time now
and yet we are messing with the 9600 series in a $3000 machine?
fuck this shit
Originally posted by PB
Do you believe that the 2.7 GHz processors were ready some time now and sitting in an Apple closet? It is clear that the G5 has problems to scale up, like any other comparable CPU in the industry. I would go a little farther saying that it is perhaps EOL.
I would be hoping that we would be seeing the GX chips by now. Every time I read about them it seems as though they are doing so well. That they don't have the heat problems the FX's have. If so, where are they.
Yeah, the Fx SHOULD be EOL'd by now. Why isn't it? (rhetorical question)
Maybe these are the GX chips without the water cooling. That, at least, would be something.
Originally posted by nathan22t
the radeon 9800 has been out forever
hell the x800 has been out for a pretty damn long time now
and yet we are messing with the 9600 series in a $3000 machine?
fuck this shit
Yup, I can't understand why they dropped the 9800 from the upgrade list. At first I thought they were putting it inside their new machines. But I guess not. Too bad.
The 800 or the 6800 would be too expensive to include at this time though.
Originally posted by nathan22t
the radeon 9800 has been out forever
hell the x800 has been out for a pretty damn long time now
and yet we are messing with the 9600 series in a $3000 machine?
All this is nice and good, but what about the CPU? Apple is not known to do incremental component updates, without raising a little at least the CPU clock (so much about the "MHz myth").