Updated Apple Power Mac G5 systems en route to company stores

1457910

Comments

  • Reply 121 of 185
    dave jdave j Posts: 84member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by dfiler





    You must not be aware of the type of user who uses their computer as a money making tool. If a new G5 gets more video editing done each work day, then buying one now allows you to make more money now.




    Am intimately familiar with the consumer you speak of as I am onesuch. However, there's tools and then there's tools. A money-making shop can give a flip about Macs vs PC's and given the choice of a bin swap upgrade or a dual core with some muscle will choose the muscle - and value - every time.



    I repeat, there is no value here.
  • Reply 122 of 185
    telomartelomar Posts: 1,804member
    I'm not sure you really know what you're on about when you talk about value. The Dual 2GHz will be at least $500 cheaper, both the middle and top configuration will be faster and across the board there are small improvements to the other accessories. Better superdrives, hard drives, graphics cards.



    If you need a new Powermac I certainly wouldn't be complaining to have improved configurations and they certainly offer benefits over a lot of computers. If you bought the last round it doesn't offer much but then if you bought in the past year it is unlikely you would be upgrading those computers. I know very few companies that offer anything better than computer upgrades every 18 months to workers and most tend to operate on a 3 year cycle and these certainly are better than what was available back then.



    People seem to always look at things in comparison to what was there last but the reality is nobody buys one generation then upgrades it unless they have money to waste or a desire to have the fastest for their own ego.



    There is plenty to complain about in this update but they do offer value over what there was and they do offer value over what a lot of people currently use.



    As an aside dual core was never going to happen this early in the year. You need to have enough production to supply a market.
  • Reply 123 of 185
    dave jdave j Posts: 84member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Telomar

    I'm not sure you really know what you're on about when you talk about value. The Dual 2GHz will be at least $500 cheaper



    Which would be fine if this were fine wine or something. It's not; it's tech and $500 cheaper for a two year old mobo with sucky GPU's and NO express is not value. It's a machine that the buyer will be forced to upgrade in a year to maintain any kind of parity. Penny wise and dollar foolish. Not interested.
  • Reply 124 of 185
    fahlmanfahlman Posts: 737member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Dave J

    Which would be fine if this were fine wine or something. It's not; it's tech and $500 cheaper for a two year old mobo with sucky GPU's and NO express is not value. It's a machine that the buyer will be forced to upgrade in a year to maintain any kind of parity. Penny wise and dollar foolish. Not interested.



    I don't want to tell you that you're wrong, but I you're wrong. 20 months ago, less than 2 years, the Dual 2.0 sold for $2,999. If, as Amazon let slip, the Dual 2.0 ships tomorrow for $1,999 it will have seen two price reductions of $500 each time for a total of $1,000. That's a 33% price reduction in 20 months. Not too bad.



    Edit: See this press release for original release date and pricing.
  • Reply 125 of 185
    telomartelomar Posts: 1,804member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Dave J

    Which would be fine if this were fine wine or something. It's not; it's tech and $500 cheaper for a two year old mobo with sucky GPU's and NO express is not value. It's a machine that the buyer will be forced to upgrade in a year to maintain any kind of parity. Penny wise and dollar foolish. Not interested.



    If you buy a workstation right now it is unlikely it will use PCI-e for anything outside the graphics card. PCI-X is still basically the standard in workstations. A few have 1 PCI-e slot but PCI or PCI-X still is the predominant feature.



    The GPU options are dreadful, I will say that. There needs to be a better in between option. The question of AGP or PCI-e for the card is somewhat irrelevant though given the current market for GPUs on the mac after market. About the only people who do tend to upgrade those, even on the PC side, are more towards the enthusiast side of things, which is a small market by the way.



    Have you ever actually bought for a business or gone shopping for workstations? The Powermacs compare quite well. You might criticise Apple for not catering to the enthusiast market, and certainly if you are an enthusiast or tinkerer there isn't much there but these machines are fine if you are in the marketplace for a new workstation and frankly I'd rather the dual 2.7 to a single dual core.



    I think you overestimate how large a market actually goes for the biggest and the fastest. The new powermacs would easily see someone through 3 years, possibly more given the slow down in performance increases, at which time no doubt there will be something else on the market to upgrade to.
  • Reply 126 of 185
    LMAO!

    ---



    Anyone know the shortest time between Powermac updates? Are there any other examples of Apple putting out stop-gap machines while they toil over the next insanely great thing?
  • Reply 127 of 185
    LMAO!

    ---



    Anyone know the shortest time between Powermac updates? Are there any other examples of Apple putting out stop-gap machines while they toil over the next insanely great thing?
  • Reply 128 of 185
    dave jdave j Posts: 84member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by fahlman

    I don't want to tell you that you're wrong, but I you're wrong. 20 months ago, less than 2 years, the Dual 2.0 sold for $2,999. If, as Amazon let slip, the Dual 2.0 ships tomorrow for $1,999 it will have seen two price reductions of $1,000.



    Edit: See this press release for original release date and pricing.




    I was quoting Telomar. Who are you saying is wrong here?



    Not that it matters. Old tech is still old and cheap old tech is only slightly better. But, in the words of the insipid Nexium commercial, "better is better".
  • Reply 129 of 185
    dave jdave j Posts: 84member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Telomar

    If you buy a workstation right now it is unlikely it will use PCI-e for anything outside the graphics card.



    Blackmagic's MultiBridge. PCIe only. Now shipping. A 4 pipe. (More pipes to follow, I'm sure )



    Apple's machines aren't the easiest to upgrade. When you plunk down your 3-4 K you gotta dance with it for several years. A little future proofing is very helpful here.

    And absent from these updates.
  • Reply 130 of 185
    fahlmanfahlman Posts: 737member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Dave J

    I was quoting Telomar. Who are you saying is wrong here?



    Not that it matters. Old tech is still old and cheap old tech is only slightly better. But, in the words of the insipid Nexium commercial, "better is better".




    You are stating that a Dual 2.0 is two year old technology at only a $500 discount. This statement is incorrect. It is, 1) 20 month old technology, 4 months or a whole quarter short of two years, and 2) it's a $1,000 price reduction, not $500.



    Edited for politeness.
  • Reply 131 of 185
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,354member
    I have to agree with Dave J here.



    Apple has had 2 freakin' years to upgrade this hardware. This is exactly why Mac users get pissed and grumpy. A year ago we were told about how the G5 had "legs" and would be at 3Ghz. Ok so they didn't hit that target but missing the boat on PCI-Express is just flat out wrong.



    I'm afraid the next Powermac refresh is going to have to be amazing. Just having 3Ghz isn't going to cut it, we need some tech that puts us back on track.



    I like the Powermacs and the Xserve but the problem is that it's 2005 and not 2004. Apple is great at sprinting to a lead and then fading over the rest of the race.



    Let's face it the Mac lineup is a jumbled mess. The iMac doesn't offer enough expansion at its price level and the Powermac doesn't offer enough expansion at its price level.



    Theres a time coming where Apple will need to eschew the hole "cute" thing and just get down to basics. Sometimes I want a work of art...sometimes I want a workhorse. Apple can you be both?
  • Reply 132 of 185
    fahlmanfahlman Posts: 737member
    Unless my math is wrong, I am from Indiana, if the Dual 2.7 GHz Power Mac is released tomorrow we will have seen a 35% increase in processor speed in 20 months. Is this so bad?
  • Reply 133 of 185
    Quote:

    Originally posted by fahlman

    Unless my math is wrong, I am from Indiana, if the Dual 2.7 GHz Power Mac is released tomorrow we will have seen a 35% increase in processor speed in 20 months. Is this so bad?



    Yes, because your reckoning doesn't account for the competitions doubling of their number of CPU cores. Apple could have dropped the high end Powermac to 2.2 GHz and I think most people would have been happy if it were a 2.2 GHz twin dual core PPC 970mp Powermac.
  • Reply 134 of 185
    snoopysnoopy Posts: 1,901member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg

    Yes, because your reckoning doesn't account for the competitions doubling of their number of CPU cores. Apple could have dropped the high end Powermac to 2.2 GHz and I think most people would have been happy if it were a 2.2 GHz twin dual core PPC 970mp Powermac.





    Are they really selling quads, with two dual core chips? I went briefly to the Dell website and looked at the 380 workstation. An option does provides an Intel dual core processor, for $750 more than the standard single core Pentium 4. So this Dell has two cores, like the Power Macs have had for years. Are the Windows boxes just now catching up in cores? Or do they actually sell workstations with four cores? I know nothing about the competition.
  • Reply 135 of 185
    gamblorgamblor Posts: 446member
    Quote:

    Blackmagic's MultiBridge. PCIe only. Now shipping. A 4 pipe.



    OK, and what motherboards can it be plugged into? Most of the motherboards I see only have 1x slots in addition to the single (or dual, if it's an SLI machine) 16x slot.



    Oh-- and congratulations on finding the first PCIe card, other than graphics cards, that I've seen. (Perhaps the second, I think I saw a PCIe SATA card at Newegg...)



    The simple fact is, the vast majority of expansion cards are either PCI or PCI-X. There simply isn't much of an uproar (except for you guys) over this, because we're simply not missing out on much.



    [...]



    Quote:

    I like the Powermacs and the Xserve but the problem is that it's 2005 and not 2004. Apple is great at sprinting to a lead and then fading over the rest of the race.



    And yet, there is still a dearth of PCIe cards. It's really a non-issue at this point... I know it'd be nice to have for future expansion, but if you were Apple, who would you rather piss off: People who may expand their machines possibly sometime in the future, or people with a need that has to be fulfilled NOW. Go with PCIe, you satisfy the former, stay with PCI-X, you satisfy the latter. PCIe is cool, but other than for a handful of cards, it's a future standard. PCI-X is a solution that is here, now, today.



    I would LOVE it if Apple switched to PCIe, but I can understand why they'd go one more revision without it. The industry support just isn't there yet to justify it.



    [...]



    Quote:

    Yes, because your reckoning doesn't account for the competitions doubling of their number of CPU cores.



    JD, have you actually priced a dual core machine with an Intel or AMD chip? I have, and the pricing is pathetic. The Dell dual core Intel has a $1000 premium over a dual processor machine. That's ridiculous-- and what do you get for it? Bragging rights? The dual Xeon has TWICE the L2 cache of the dual core chip... I seriously doubt you'll get a performance increase that justifies the price difference. As for AMD, the dual core Opteron chip alone has a $600 premium... Unless you're going balls-to-the-wall with a top end Opteron system with dual dual core chips (which the chips alone will set you back $2800), dual core on the other side of the fence is a non-issue at this point. Both Intel & AMD are milking the early adopters for all they're worth...
  • Reply 136 of 185
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,285member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by TednDi

    Ok, here is how I see it.



    Steve said in jan 03 "3ghz by summer" He didn't deliver last year at wwdc.



    The powerbooks are at 2.7 (nearly 3)



    What if at WWDC he says something like " hey last year I promised you 3ghz powermacs sorry I didn't deliver but this year I have twin 3ghz dual core powermacs!"



    also twin 2.7 dual core

    and twin 2.5 dual core



    shipping in Sept!



    yes he will hurt sales on powermacs in the short run but will get huge marketing leverage and pent up demand for the fall season.



    Hey, it's a better theory than the Video Ipod at WWDC. He has got to produce something better than an Ipod and itms talk with a Tiger adoption schpiel!




    Steve wouldn't have said 3 GHz if IBM hadn't told him ok.



    Stop blaming Apple for IBM's problems.
  • Reply 137 of 185
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,285member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Gamblor

    OK, and what motherboards can it be plugged into? Most of the motherboards I see only have 1x slots in addition to the single (or dual, if it's an SLI machine) 16x slot.



    Oh-- and congratulations on finding the first PCIe card, other than graphics cards, that I've seen. (Perhaps the second, I think I saw a PCIe SATA card at Newegg...)



    The simple fact is, the vast majority of expansion cards are either PCI or PCI-X. There simply isn't much of an uproar (except for you guys) over this, because we're simply not missing out on much.



    [...]







    And yet, there is still a dearth of PCIe cards. It's really a non-issue at this point... I know it'd be nice to have for future expansion, but if you were Apple, who would you rather piss off: People who may expand their machines possibly sometime in the future, or people with a need that has to be fulfilled NOW. Go with PCIe, you satisfy the former, stay with PCI-X, you satisfy the latter. PCIe is cool, but other than for a handful of cards, it's a future standard. PCI-X is a solution that is here, now, today.



    I would LOVE it if Apple switched to PCIe, but I can understand why they'd go one more revision without it. The industry support just isn't there yet to justify it.



    [...]







    JD, have you actually priced a dual core machine with an Intel or AMD chip? I have, and the pricing is pathetic. The Dell dual core Intel has a $1000 premium over a dual processor machine. That's ridiculous-- and what do you get for it? Bragging rights? The dual Xeon has TWICE the L2 cache of the dual core chip... I seriously doubt you'll get a performance increase that justifies the price difference. As for AMD, the dual core Opteron chip alone has a $600 premium... Unless you're going balls-to-the-wall with a top end Opteron system with dual dual core chips (which the chips alone will set you back $2800), dual core on the other side of the fence is a non-issue.




    Express is NOT a non-issue. I can guarantee that quite a few companies are working on Express cards. The PC industry will be almost all on Express by January. That's THEIR goal, not mine. If you think that the board companies are going to wait, then you should rethink your ideas.



    I do agree about the cpu pricing.
  • Reply 138 of 185
    gamblorgamblor Posts: 446member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by melgross

    Express is NOT a non-issue. I can guarantee that quite a few companies are working on Express cards. The PC industry will be almost all on Express by January. That's THEIR goal, not mine. If you think that the board companies are going to wait, then you should rethink your ideas.



    I do agree about the cpu pricing.




    Hmmm... It's FREAKIN' APRIL. Apple has EIGHT MONTHS before January to come out with a PCIe chipset. Just for the sake of argument, let's say they don't have something for an entire year. Will it be the end of the world for them? I highly doubt it-- they'll only be four months beyond your January line in the sand.



    Besides, "PC industry will almost all on Express by January"? I highly doubt that. How long were ISA cards around after PCI came out? A hell of a lot longer than it's been since PCIe was introduced, that's for sure. Never underestimate the intertia of electrical engineers. Unless many of the card makers see their sales drop off to nothing, they're not going to budge from their current PCI/PCI-X solutions. Sure, PCIe WILL come-- but it's not the solution that's here now. Honestly, I don't think the industry is going to move anywhere near that fast.
  • Reply 139 of 185
    gene cleangene clean Posts: 3,481member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by melgross





    Stop blaming Apple for IBM's problems.






    IBM is Apple's CPU supplier, therefore IBM's problems, become Apple's problems.



    Apple chose IBM as a partner, therefore they both share the same problem. IBM may be the only one responsible for the technical side of the problem, but Apple, and by that I mean Steve Jobs primarily, are the ones that are responsible for the marketing side of the problem: 3 Ghz was spoken with a true conviction by SJ, it was not a false marketing plot.



    Because IBM failed to deliver, does not mean that Apple didn't believe that IBM would deliver.



    In any case, 3 Ghz is a long gone, nowadays forgotten thing. If IBM can deliver dual-core, then it will be just a bad memory.
  • Reply 140 of 185
    arty50arty50 Posts: 201member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Gamblor

    Besides, "PC industry will almost all on Express by January"? I highly doubt that. How long were ISA cards around after PCI came out? A hell of a lot longer than it's been since PCIe was introduced, that's for sure. Never underestimate the intertia of electrical engineers. Unless many of the card makers see their sales drop off to nothing, they're not going to budge from their current PCI/PCI-X solutions. Sure, PCIe WILL come-- but it's not the solution that's here now. Honestly, I don't think the industry is going to move anywhere near that fast.



    Nobody's saying PCIe should replace PCI/PCI-X yet. However, PCIe is already here in a big way as a replacement for AGP. Almost every single new video card is being produced in a PCIe version. The jump from PCI to AGP was quick and the jump from AGP to PCIe appears to be happening rather quickly also. Apple better get with the program.



    Allow me to point out the obvious. Why do PowerMacs have removable video cards? So users can upgrade them in the future. So it doesn't exactly make sense to buy a brand spanking new $2-3000 computer which comes with a video card interface that is rapidly becoming obsolete. It's not becoming obsolete because it's necessarily inferior. It's becoming obsolete because the demand for PCIe graphics cards is growing rapidly and PCIe chipsets are cheaper than AGP chipsets anyway; so both mobo and graphics chipset manufacturers are moving to PCIe in a big way.



    Let me put it another way. What will my graphics card choices be like in 2 years? The way things are shaping up, there will be a ton of PCIe options and very few AGP options.



    Frankly I could care less about a processor speed bump. If they came out with a top of the line Dual 2.5 with PCIe, I would buy it.
Sign In or Register to comment.