Even though I don't see this move happening I don't think VirtualPC would push developers to switch. Mac OS X is based on UNIX and that alone will keep many developers even if Apple do go over to x86.
I do hope that some form of VirtualPC will be available on the new machines still as I do have the odd 'Windows only' software that I need to run every once in a while. And as I run them 'on the road' with my PowerBook I'd hate to lug around a cheap Win laptop too.
But if that VirtualPC Windows application will indeed run at 80-90% the speed of a native OS X application then this will cause problems for developers justifying a Mac port. For what some extra 10-20% speed? How many people are likely to upgrade their hardware instead to get that extra speed - rather than buying a Mac version of the software?
I do agree that there will always be developers who prefer developing with XTools and on the Mac platform. As much as I agree that there are still Amiga and BeOS developers out there. But the Mac developers will dwindle in numbers.
On a side note:
I do see parallels with the Apple Stores. Think about it. Apple had a bunch of really good Mac resellers, which due to the Mac's dark days dwindled. And Apple at one point felt that they needed to open their own stores.
What if exactly that is happening on the software front now? Apple realising that Mac development is dwindling. And they will now start a full-frontal assault to change that.
Apple will switch to Intel and allow users to use the odd Windows-only application (games?), all the while Apple increases its own software development department to fill in the holes. All the while small Mac developers either have great products that sell or go bust like most Mac resellers.
If the 'new' Mac users are happy with their Macintel experience consisting of mainly Apple apps (from iWork to Final Cut Pro) all the way to the odd Windows software (games) then Apple should be happy as well.
Mac developers on the other hand won't be happy. Much like the Mac resellers aren't happy about the Apple Stores.
I do hope that some form of VirtualPC will be available on the new machines still as I do have the odd 'Windows only' software that I need to run every once in a while. And as I run them 'on the road' with my PowerBook I'd hate to lug around a cheap Win laptop too.
But if that VirtualPC Windows application will indeed run at 80-90% the speed of a native OS X application then this will cause problems for developers justifying a Mac port. For what some extra 10-20% speed? How many people are likely to upgrade their hardware instead to get that extra speed - rather than buying a Mac version of the software?
I do agree that there will always be developers who prefer developing with XTools and on the Mac platform. As much as I agree that there are still Amiga and BeOS developers out there. But the Mac developers will dwindle in numbers.
On a side note:
I do see parallels with the Apple Stores. Think about it. Apple had a bunch of really good Mac resellers, which due to the Mac's dark days dwindled. And Apple at one point felt that they needed to open their own stores.
What if exactly that is happening on the software front now? Apple realising that Mac development is dwindling. And they will now start a full-frontal assault to change that.
Apple will switch to Intel and allow users to use the odd Windows-only application (games?), all the while Apple increases its own software development department to fill in the holes. All the while small Mac developers either have great products that sell or go bust like most Mac resellers.
If the 'new' Mac users are happy with their Macintel experience consisting of mainly Apple apps (from iWork to Final Cut Pro) all the way to the odd Windows software (games) then Apple should be happy as well.
Mac developers on the other hand won't be happy. Much like the Mac resellers aren't happy about the Apple Stores.
Get over this VPC thing !!!
This last article that we have been referencing in this thread said the reason SJ is switching now is because Transitive tech will finally do such a good job of translating apps it can do it on the fly without any performance hit.
Thus, we move to Intel without any penalty.
I can remember Transitive technology being used back when we switched from 040 to RISK, but they always call it a startup and pretend that it is all brand new.
So, if rumors are true, it's only 1.5 hours until I give up my 25 year relationship with Apple.
Hopefully not. I got my Mac a month ago. It would be pretty depressing if I spent all this money and they go to the x86 architecture. If they go to Intel for another PowerPC chip then that would be cool as long as those of us who have the current G5 can still run software of the future for the new chip.
I'm still pretty disappointed at the thought of OS X on Intel. If the 970 mp rumors had become true, Apple would owned the totally dominate desktop PC system in the galaxy. Four cores with gargantuan busses and good intercore communications would have flat out owned anything from AMD or Intel.
Now if we really get Intel Macs, then Mac hardware is just the same - not faster, not slower. It all turns into a software optimization contest, and we know who's behind on that.
It looks like IBM got their PPC ducks in a row with the console business and then told Apple to go fuck themselves.
by the way, won't this effectively drive the knife into the heart of the upgrade makers like sonnet et al.? well, okay, maybe not sonnet, since they've diversified themselves into pci cards and ipod accessories, too, but i have to think gigadesigns and powerlogix won't survive this, as every mac currently shipping with have an inescapable upgrade limit (yeah, they always kinda did, but you could always fool yourself into thinking they could always eek out a few more mhz with the same chip over and over... not any more)
by the way, won't this effectively drive the knife into the heart of the upgrade makers like sonnet et al.? well, okay, maybe not sonnet, since they've diversified themselves into pci cards and ipod accessories, too, but i have to think gigadesigns and powerlogix won't survive this, as every mac currently shipping with have an inescapable upgrade limit (yeah, they always kinda did, but you could always fool yourself into thinking they could always eek out a few more mhz with the same chip over and over... not any more)
There used to be a whole bunch of upgrade makes with totally different names from today, back before the Apple CLONE WARS !!!
An upgrade builder had the FIRST multiprocessor MACchine on any platform.
DEATH TO THE UPGRADE MAKERS its happened so many times before !!!
by the way, won't this effectively drive the knife into the heart of the upgrade makers like sonnet et al.? well, okay, maybe not sonnet, since they've diversified themselves into pci cards and ipod accessories, too, but i have to think gigadesigns and powerlogix won't survive this, as every mac currently shipping with have an inescapable upgrade limit (yeah, they always kinda did, but you could always fool yourself into thinking they could always eek out a few more mhz with the same chip over and over... not any more)
It may be the opposite.
I was holding out until an Express Mac came out. I was hoping that it would have come out by now, but whenever it did I was going to wait for the model 6 months later (I never buy into a major HW shift right out the box).
So, I hoped we would see one here in June, and so in Jan I would pick one up.
I have four machines at home, all G4's, and I'm upgrading them to the limit. These are all good machines and have a lot of life in them, if they are upgraded.
Now though, the question is what will happen. Will Apple come out with an Express unit? And if they do, what will it have in it? Are the GX line of chips which includes the MP dead? Or dying?
Should I spend $4,000 on a new machine in the next 6 months or so if it won't be viable 18 to 24 months down the line?
These are tough questions. But we can't just stand aside with our current machines and let their performance continue to slide vs. the newer machines coming out.
I'm talking to Powerlogix now about upgrading two Digital Audio machines in the next week or so. It just depends on which dual board will give the best performance, a 7457 vs a 7447a.
If people are going to be confused as to what to do, and want to hold off buying a new machine because of it, the best thing to do would be to get upgrades to their current ones. That will be much cheaper now, and will give them breathing room until Apple sorts it all out.
If at some point, they decide that Apple has messed things up, and they decide to switch (I know, horrible thought), then they won't have bought an entire machine which might not retain much value.
A wholesale switch to Intel x86-family processors still doesn't make sense to me, especially as this alleged move would be a year away and Intel have been - on balance - no better at delivering 90nm technology than IBM or Freescale.
If anything is going to happen, I still believe that far from it being a wholesale switch it will be a licensing of a reference mobo design and a "limited localisation" version of OS X running under Intel that will be licensed to a handful of carefully chosen hardware manufacturers that have regional dominance in China, India and other important developing markets.
Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I'm not worried about performance. And I am not worried about OS X applications not running on the new chips.
The new Intel based machines will be perfect for Mac-only developers, no doubt about it. Transitive or Apple will provide a compatibility layer so that 'legacy' applications will work seamlessly, just as OS 9 apps do now.
What I am worried about is losing most developers who currently develop cross-platform: Windows and Mac. The cost for doing this is higher than just developing for one platform. If faced with the new fact that Windows applications suddenly run almost as fast as native Mac applications, what would you do if you were such a cross-platform developer?
You are very likely dumping your Mac development team.
And that would mean the loss of Mac specific variants of mainstream applications, which would be a pity.
Originally posted by Mark- Card Carrying FanaticRealist
A wholesale switch to Intel x86-family processors still doesn't make sense to me, especially as this alleged move would be a year away and Intel have been - on balance - no better at delivering 90nm technology than IBM or Freescale.
Agreed. I can't think of a compelling reason for the switch.
Comments
Originally posted by MacCrazy
Even though I don't see this move happening I don't think VirtualPC would push developers to switch. Mac OS X is based on UNIX and that alone will keep many developers even if Apple do go over to x86.
I do hope that some form of VirtualPC will be available on the new machines still as I do have the odd 'Windows only' software that I need to run every once in a while. And as I run them 'on the road' with my PowerBook I'd hate to lug around a cheap Win laptop too.
But if that VirtualPC Windows application will indeed run at 80-90% the speed of a native OS X application then this will cause problems for developers justifying a Mac port. For what some extra 10-20% speed? How many people are likely to upgrade their hardware instead to get that extra speed - rather than buying a Mac version of the software?
I do agree that there will always be developers who prefer developing with XTools and on the Mac platform. As much as I agree that there are still Amiga and BeOS developers out there. But the Mac developers will dwindle in numbers.
On a side note:
I do see parallels with the Apple Stores. Think about it. Apple had a bunch of really good Mac resellers, which due to the Mac's dark days dwindled. And Apple at one point felt that they needed to open their own stores.
What if exactly that is happening on the software front now? Apple realising that Mac development is dwindling. And they will now start a full-frontal assault to change that.
Apple will switch to Intel and allow users to use the odd Windows-only application (games?), all the while Apple increases its own software development department to fill in the holes. All the while small Mac developers either have great products that sell or go bust like most Mac resellers.
If the 'new' Mac users are happy with their Macintel experience consisting of mainly Apple apps (from iWork to Final Cut Pro) all the way to the odd Windows software (games) then Apple should be happy as well.
Mac developers on the other hand won't be happy. Much like the Mac resellers aren't happy about the Apple Stores.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Kelly...ain-2688.shtml
SJ can't YOU see what this Intel inside Macs is DOING TO US !!!
Originally posted by MacCrazy
didn't we do this for MWSF as well? OK I'll do 1 hour and the final WWDC NOW then?!
yeah... you lucky bastard
i fucked up my ini-meenie-mini-moe calculations
Originally posted by melgross
I never thought it was that high.
shit i think it's like 0.001% coherence right now
Originally posted by sunilraman
yeah... you lucky bastard
i fucked up my ini-meenie-mini-moe calculations
sorry - you can do it if you want to - so who's going to be on the AppleInsider AIM chat?
Originally posted by hobBIT
I do hope that some form of VirtualPC will be available on the new machines still as I do have the odd 'Windows only' software that I need to run every once in a while. And as I run them 'on the road' with my PowerBook I'd hate to lug around a cheap Win laptop too.
But if that VirtualPC Windows application will indeed run at 80-90% the speed of a native OS X application then this will cause problems for developers justifying a Mac port. For what some extra 10-20% speed? How many people are likely to upgrade their hardware instead to get that extra speed - rather than buying a Mac version of the software?
I do agree that there will always be developers who prefer developing with XTools and on the Mac platform. As much as I agree that there are still Amiga and BeOS developers out there. But the Mac developers will dwindle in numbers.
On a side note:
I do see parallels with the Apple Stores. Think about it. Apple had a bunch of really good Mac resellers, which due to the Mac's dark days dwindled. And Apple at one point felt that they needed to open their own stores.
What if exactly that is happening on the software front now? Apple realising that Mac development is dwindling. And they will now start a full-frontal assault to change that.
Apple will switch to Intel and allow users to use the odd Windows-only application (games?), all the while Apple increases its own software development department to fill in the holes. All the while small Mac developers either have great products that sell or go bust like most Mac resellers.
If the 'new' Mac users are happy with their Macintel experience consisting of mainly Apple apps (from iWork to Final Cut Pro) all the way to the odd Windows software (games) then Apple should be happy as well.
Mac developers on the other hand won't be happy. Much like the Mac resellers aren't happy about the Apple Stores.
Get over this VPC thing !!!
This last article that we have been referencing in this thread said the reason SJ is switching now is because Transitive tech will finally do such a good job of translating apps it can do it on the fly without any performance hit.
Thus, we move to Intel without any penalty.
I can remember Transitive technology being used back when we switched from 040 to RISK, but they always call it a startup and pretend that it is all brand new.
Originally posted by MacCrazy
sorry - you can do it if you want to - so who's going to be on the AppleInsider AIM chat?
nah it's cool mate.. you better handle the primetime countdown bits... my xanax is starting to kick in...... woooo ooo ooooo
1.5 HOURS TO GO
Originally posted by sunilraman
nah it's cool mate.. you better handle the primetime countdown bits... my xanax is starting to kick in...... woooo ooo ooooo
1.5 HOURS TO GO
So, if rumors are true, it's only 1.5 hours until I give up my 25 year relationship with Apple.
Originally posted by D.J. Adequate
So, if rumors are true, it's only 1.5 hours until I give up my 25 year relationship with Apple.
Hopefully not. I got my Mac a month ago. It would be pretty depressing if I spent all this money and they go to the x86 architecture. If they go to Intel for another PowerPC chip then that would be cool as long as those of us who have the current G5 can still run software of the future for the new chip.
Originally posted by D.J. Adequate
So, if rumors are true, it's only 1.5 hours until I give up my 25 year relationship with Apple.
Ouch, that makes my 9 month apple relationship feel a lot less wothless.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
i am building intel mac plastics right now.
Now if we really get Intel Macs, then Mac hardware is just the same - not faster, not slower. It all turns into a software optimization contest, and we know who's behind on that.
It looks like IBM got their PPC ducks in a row with the console business and then told Apple to go fuck themselves.
Originally posted by rok
by the way, won't this effectively drive the knife into the heart of the upgrade makers like sonnet et al.? well, okay, maybe not sonnet, since they've diversified themselves into pci cards and ipod accessories, too, but i have to think gigadesigns and powerlogix won't survive this, as every mac currently shipping with have an inescapable upgrade limit (yeah, they always kinda did, but you could always fool yourself into thinking they could always eek out a few more mhz with the same chip over and over... not any more)
There used to be a whole bunch of upgrade makes with totally different names from today, back before the Apple CLONE WARS !!!
An upgrade builder had the FIRST multiprocessor MACchine on any platform.
DEATH TO THE UPGRADE MAKERS its happened so many times before !!!
1 HOUR TO GO !!!!!
Originally posted by rok
by the way, won't this effectively drive the knife into the heart of the upgrade makers like sonnet et al.? well, okay, maybe not sonnet, since they've diversified themselves into pci cards and ipod accessories, too, but i have to think gigadesigns and powerlogix won't survive this, as every mac currently shipping with have an inescapable upgrade limit (yeah, they always kinda did, but you could always fool yourself into thinking they could always eek out a few more mhz with the same chip over and over... not any more)
It may be the opposite.
I was holding out until an Express Mac came out. I was hoping that it would have come out by now, but whenever it did I was going to wait for the model 6 months later (I never buy into a major HW shift right out the box).
So, I hoped we would see one here in June, and so in Jan I would pick one up.
I have four machines at home, all G4's, and I'm upgrading them to the limit. These are all good machines and have a lot of life in them, if they are upgraded.
Now though, the question is what will happen. Will Apple come out with an Express unit? And if they do, what will it have in it? Are the GX line of chips which includes the MP dead? Or dying?
Should I spend $4,000 on a new machine in the next 6 months or so if it won't be viable 18 to 24 months down the line?
These are tough questions. But we can't just stand aside with our current machines and let their performance continue to slide vs. the newer machines coming out.
I'm talking to Powerlogix now about upgrading two Digital Audio machines in the next week or so. It just depends on which dual board will give the best performance, a 7457 vs a 7447a.
If people are going to be confused as to what to do, and want to hold off buying a new machine because of it, the best thing to do would be to get upgrades to their current ones. That will be much cheaper now, and will give them breathing room until Apple sorts it all out.
If at some point, they decide that Apple has messed things up, and they decide to switch (I know, horrible thought), then they won't have bought an entire machine which might not retain much value.
If anything is going to happen, I still believe that far from it being a wholesale switch it will be a licensing of a reference mobo design and a "limited localisation" version of OS X running under Intel that will be licensed to a handful of carefully chosen hardware manufacturers that have regional dominance in China, India and other important developing markets.
Originally posted by MACchine
Get over this VPC thing
Sorry, if I wasn't clear. I'm not worried about performance. And I am not worried about OS X applications not running on the new chips.
The new Intel based machines will be perfect for Mac-only developers, no doubt about it. Transitive or Apple will provide a compatibility layer so that 'legacy' applications will work seamlessly, just as OS 9 apps do now.
What I am worried about is losing most developers who currently develop cross-platform: Windows and Mac. The cost for doing this is higher than just developing for one platform. If faced with the new fact that Windows applications suddenly run almost as fast as native Mac applications, what would you do if you were such a cross-platform developer?
You are very likely dumping your Mac development team.
And that would mean the loss of Mac specific variants of mainstream applications, which would be a pity.
Originally posted by sunilraman
macCrazy you biatch....
1 HOUR TO GO !!!!!
sorry five minutes late
Originally posted by Mark- Card Carrying FanaticRealist
A wholesale switch to Intel x86-family processors still doesn't make sense to me, especially as this alleged move would be a year away and Intel have been - on balance - no better at delivering 90nm technology than IBM or Freescale.
Agreed. I can't think of a compelling reason for the switch.