I think it depends on Intels roadmap.. And on the fact that Apple cant afford to send out pro-machines filled with Intel mistakes. let the normal users take the plunge first and remove all flaws, and then send out machines for the pros that actually work 100%.
I think it depends on Intels roadmap.. And on the fact that Apple cant afford to send out pro-machines filled with Intel mistakes. let the normal users take the plunge first and remove all flaws, and then send out machines for the pros that actually work 100%.
You could argue the exact opposite.
Since they don´t sell so many PMs as iBooks they would not risk as much with a faulty 1st gen. And PM buyers (people who are not new to the platform) know that they can burn themselves with first gen of any typee Apple hardware.
Not that I believe the PM to change first, just playing the devils advocate here.
This is pure speculation on my part, but I think we will see most of Apple's line transitioned to Intel chip in short succession. Love it or leave it, Intel is the future of the Mac. Apple has nothing to gain by creating a protracted transition to the new architecture. Assuming the components are available from Intel and SW devs are on track, I think Apple will switch the entire line by fall '06.
The caveat to this assumption is the timing SW development and the existance of apps. Pros NEED to use stable apps that perform as advertised (LOL, in a perfect world), so Apple will need to schedule the HW release around the debut of major SW labels. There will probably be some level of 'critical mass,' where a high enough percentage of apps are ported to support the pro-line launch.
This is pure speculation on my part, but I think we will see most of Apple's line transitioned to Intel chip in short succession. Love it or leave it, Intel is the future of the Mac. Apple has nothing to gain by creating a protracted transition to the new architecture. Assuming the components are available from Intel and SW devs are on track, I think Apple will switch the entire line by fall '06.
The caveat to this assumption is the timing SW development and the existance of apps. Pros NEED to use stable apps that perform as advertised (LOL, in a perfect world), so Apple will need to schedule the HW release around the debut of major SW labels. There will probably be some level of 'critical mass,' where a high enough percentage of apps are ported to support the pro-line launch.
I quite agree with you, I believe that only the new CPUs availability will decide which line switch first, as far as we know, Yonah will be fully available around feb-march 2006, that means PowerBooks (dual core), iBooks and mini (single core) first, then Apple may have to wait until Conroe is available to switch PowerMacs and iMacs (fall 2006?), I have no idea for the Xserves. This doesn't prevent Apple to continue to ship some PPC versions of those computers until the most of the 3rd parties software has been updated to Intel... But yes we may be seeing most of the lines switched before the end of 2006 (PB=march, mini=may, iBook=july, PM=sept, iMac=nov).
This is pure speculation on my part, but I think we will see most of Apple's line transitioned to Intel chip in short succession.
I can follow your argument, but it is contrary to what Steve Jobs himself said at the WWDC.
His slides said that Apple intends to be shipping Intel systems by June next year.
Which in itself is a vague enough statement to open the door to hot speculation whether that means introduction of the very first Intel Macs in June or whether Apple will release them much sooner, perhaps as early as January 2006.
His slides also said that the transition will be over by the end of 2007.
Which again could be interpreted as a worst case scenario with Apple hoping to be finished sooner, if all goes well.
It is very likely that Apple itself hopes to be done with the transition rather sooner than later, and hence the given dates could be considered a worst case scenarios.
Especially in light of Jobs' misguided early 3GHz claim, I'm certain that any further statements about future events are very conservative estimates.
But Jobs also hinted at new Intel technologies. Reportedly the reason why Apple switched is not the current Intel roadmap but stuff Intel has in the labs, things not announced yet. It could very well be that Jobs is waiting for these technologies to be put into some of the new Mac products, which could well mean that it will be end of 2007 when these are ready.
And lastly, Jobs himself at the end of his keynote said that what the Mac really is about is the OS, not the hardware. Therefore any Intel transition will depend on the progress OS X and all the iApps make on Intel. Watch their progress and you get a good idea when the first Intel Macs will appear.
Okay, we are now meant to believe Yonah will save the world etc etc it's clock-for-clock 2x the speed of a G4 etc etc (deja vu 970?).
So it goes in the Mac Mini first, according to CNET. At, say, 1.6GHz. Suddenly the Mini is faster than a PowerMac or PowerBook?
Makes no sense.
I reckon iMac & Powerbook, then iBook & Mini. PowerMac last.
Sure it does, you can't use that fast Mini on the subway can you? If Apple wants to get it's foot into the HT crowd, it needs to get the mini up and running with better connectivity and graphics card and power.
Sure it does, you can't use that fast Mini on the subway can you? If Apple wants to get it's foot into the HT crowd, it needs to get the mini up and running with better connectivity and graphics card and power.
If they wanted to do that, they just would have, no?
I think it depends on Intels roadmap.. And on the fact that Apple cant afford to send out pro-machines filled with Intel mistakes. let the normal users take the plunge first and remove all flaws, and then send out machines for the pros that actually work 100%.
If anything, it will be because Intel's performance won't surpass the 970MP until 2007. Intel produces really comprehensive reference designs that allow any integrator to make their own board pretty mindlessly. And I'll let you know that the EE's I know at Intel are of a higher caliber than the ones I know at Apple. (This is more to say that the people I know at Intel are exceptional. Apple has a pretty solid team itself) I'm not worried about Apple's ability to integrate Intel devices quickly and without incident.
From a software point of view, allot of pro software uses altivec and porting over the altivec instructions to intel's vector engine is what I've been told will be the most difficult part of the transition. Any app that doesn't use altivec is an easy port otherwise it'll take time. Further, there's the issue of the RAW power of the power PC. Overall for a pro it's a better chip. OVERALL. It's not the fastest at every task but when it comes to the intense stuff it's a better chip. My own experience tells me that but there's also plenty of documentation to support that. Hence apple's MHZ don't matter bit. I know what Job's said but I'm not so sure that the powermac will ever see intel chips. I am probably wrong but with so many other buyers for the next gen PPC (sony, microsoft, nintendo) why wouldn't apple use it except for consistency. No the transition effects the pros and pro software the most. It'll be the consumer machines and laptops first. Anyone who has ever worked on the latest gen powerbooks will tell you there are few PC makers out there with anything that can touch them in terms of performance. Especially true when you consider that a BTO model with a 256 MB video card is now available and 7200 RPM hard drives are readily available. A 1.67 GHZ G4 is not such a bad machine that it prevents pros from doing anything they want and the perfoamnce gains of a 2.? GHZ intel chip are negligable. I just got done cutting a doc in the field (HDDVCAM) with an intel based dell that had some very impressive specs and it performed like a champ but it still couldn't do allot of things my PBK could do smoother or better. Just my two cents I was completely wrong about the whole switch to begin with and it does make some sense for apple to align themselves better with the rest of the industry but the pro machines are a real nitch MKT keeping the Power macs PPC is actually an option since they really already make so few of them in comparison to the rest of their line. They are speciallity machines and have always been priced and treated as such by apple. No they can't rock the boat too heavy on the pro machines. PBK's might get the new chips because the G5 just isn't ready for the mobile realm but it won't happen until the software people with $4,000 powerbooks use is ready and from what I can tell those apps will be the last to switch.
I think the PowerBook would be the best place for Apple to first utilize the Pentium-M type derivative. There would be a huge PowerBook selling that year. I don't even need to say why.
I think the PowerBook would be the best place for Apple to first utilize the Pentium-M type derivative. There would be a huge PowerBook selling that year. I don't even need to say why.
could be...might also convince some iBook buyers to get one if they're sufficiently impatient...then upgrade iBooks 6 months later.
From a software point of view, allot of pro software uses altivec and porting over the altivec instructions to intel's vector engine is what I've been told will be the most difficult part of the transition. Any app that doesn't use altivec is an easy port otherwise it'll take time.
...
No the transition effects the pros and pro software the most. It'll be the consumer machines and laptops first.
Those are the very reason why the mac mini would be the ideal machine to do the switch to Intel first. Most people purchasing mac mini don't use them for professionnal work, so they don't have specific software requirement. They only need OS X with all its goodies and maybe Microsoft Office and that's all. Apple could easily launch an Intel mac mini, which would give them time to look for unplanned issues and at the same time would give software developers a reason to hurry up the porting of their software.
Those are the very reason why the mac mini would be the ideal machine to do the switch to Intel first. Most people purchasing mac mini don't use them for professionnal work, so they don't have specific software requirement. They only need OS X with all its goodies and maybe Microsoft Office and that's all. Apple could easily launch an Intel mac mini, which would give them time to look for unplanned issues and at the same time would give software developers a reason to hurry up the porting of their software.
To add to this a lot (not all) of people are looking for an entry level machine, but have not purchased a computer in awhile, if at all. Having the Intel branding, not matter how much some people revile it, will be a selling point to these people.
Also in relation to a G5 PB, I would have to say it makes no sense to release one. If it works it makes the transition to Intel harder in the future, if it fails due to Rev A issues then it wrecks the image. All I can see for G4 is processor speed bumps. Apple has enough $$ in the bank to take a slump in sales for awhile, and if Intel is as good as some people are making out, then the transition could be very notable and help to dispel some of the discontent.
From a software point of view, allot of pro software uses altivec and porting over the altivec instructions to intel's vector engine is what I've been told will be the most difficult part of the transition.
A lot of pro software exist on both platforms so they already have the Intel optimizations.
Furthermore if you have coded your apps using Apple's recommendation, they are coded against the Accelerate framework, where the developers don't have to do anything other than making a Universal Binary.
From a software point of view, allot of pro software uses altivec and porting over the altivec instructions to intel's vector engine is what I've been told will be the most difficult part of the transition. Any app that doesn't use altivec is an easy port otherwise it'll take time. Further, there's the issue of the RAW power of the power PC. Overall for a pro it's a better chip. OVERALL. It's not the fastest at every task but when it comes to the intense stuff it's a better chip. My own experience tells me that but there's also plenty of documentation to support that. Hence apple's MHZ don't matter bit. I know what Job's said but I'm not so sure that the powermac will ever see intel chips. I am probably wrong but with so many other buyers for the next gen PPC (sony, microsoft, nintendo) why wouldn't apple use it except for consistency. No the transition effects the pros and pro software the most. It'll be the consumer machines and laptops first. Anyone who has ever worked on the latest gen powerbooks will tell you there are few PC makers out there with anything that can touch them in terms of performance. Especially true when you consider that a BTO model with a 256 MB video card is now available and 7200 RPM hard drives are readily available. A 1.67 GHZ G4 is not such a bad machine that it prevents pros from doing anything they want and the perfoamnce gains of a 2.? GHZ intel chip are negligable. I just got done cutting a doc in the field (HDDVCAM) with an intel based dell that had some very impressive specs and it performed like a champ but it still couldn't do allot of things my PBK could do smoother or better. Just my two cents I was completely wrong about the whole switch to begin with and it does make some sense for apple to align themselves better with the rest of the industry but the pro machines are a real nitch MKT keeping the Power macs PPC is actually an option since they really already make so few of them in comparison to the rest of their line. They are speciallity machines and have always been priced and treated as such by apple. No they can't rock the boat too heavy on the pro machines. PBK's might get the new chips because the G5 just isn't ready for the mobile realm but it won't happen until the software people with $4,000 powerbooks use is ready and from what I can tell those apps will be the last to switch.
Agree with you, just grow much boring on many years programming for the very old X86 architecture, and more interesting on PPC clean and pure RISC architecture, and love to program on it. They are going to stop the line. Hopefully can tell when will be the last PPC iMAC, i will keep on buying this wonderful machine.
Comments
Originally posted by Glamingo
So will the macmini probably be the first one to upgraded since its the cheapest?
I think it will be the portables, since they need the faster processors (unless Apple releases G5 'Books).
Originally posted by T'hain Esh Kelch
I think it depends on Intels roadmap.. And on the fact that Apple cant afford to send out pro-machines filled with Intel mistakes. let the normal users take the plunge first and remove all flaws, and then send out machines for the pros that actually work 100%.
You could argue the exact opposite.
Since they don´t sell so many PMs as iBooks they would not risk as much with a faulty 1st gen. And PM buyers (people who are not new to the platform) know that they can burn themselves with first gen of any typee Apple hardware.
Not that I believe the PM to change first, just playing the devils advocate here.
So it goes in the Mac Mini first, according to CNET. At, say, 1.6GHz. Suddenly the Mini is faster than a PowerMac or PowerBook?
Makes no sense.
I reckon iMac & Powerbook, then iBook & Mini. PowerMac last.
The caveat to this assumption is the timing SW development and the existance of apps. Pros NEED to use stable apps that perform as advertised (LOL, in a perfect world), so Apple will need to schedule the HW release around the debut of major SW labels. There will probably be some level of 'critical mass,' where a high enough percentage of apps are ported to support the pro-line launch.
Originally posted by Keda
This is pure speculation on my part, but I think we will see most of Apple's line transitioned to Intel chip in short succession. Love it or leave it, Intel is the future of the Mac. Apple has nothing to gain by creating a protracted transition to the new architecture. Assuming the components are available from Intel and SW devs are on track, I think Apple will switch the entire line by fall '06.
The caveat to this assumption is the timing SW development and the existance of apps. Pros NEED to use stable apps that perform as advertised (LOL, in a perfect world), so Apple will need to schedule the HW release around the debut of major SW labels. There will probably be some level of 'critical mass,' where a high enough percentage of apps are ported to support the pro-line launch.
I quite agree with you, I believe that only the new CPUs availability will decide which line switch first, as far as we know, Yonah will be fully available around feb-march 2006, that means PowerBooks (dual core), iBooks and mini (single core) first, then Apple may have to wait until Conroe is available to switch PowerMacs and iMacs (fall 2006?), I have no idea for the Xserves. This doesn't prevent Apple to continue to ship some PPC versions of those computers until the most of the 3rd parties software has been updated to Intel... But yes we may be seeing most of the lines switched before the end of 2006 (PB=march, mini=may, iBook=july, PM=sept, iMac=nov).
Originally posted by Keda
This is pure speculation on my part, but I think we will see most of Apple's line transitioned to Intel chip in short succession.
I can follow your argument, but it is contrary to what Steve Jobs himself said at the WWDC.
His slides said that Apple intends to be shipping Intel systems by June next year.
Which in itself is a vague enough statement to open the door to hot speculation whether that means introduction of the very first Intel Macs in June or whether Apple will release them much sooner, perhaps as early as January 2006.
His slides also said that the transition will be over by the end of 2007.
Which again could be interpreted as a worst case scenario with Apple hoping to be finished sooner, if all goes well.
It is very likely that Apple itself hopes to be done with the transition rather sooner than later, and hence the given dates could be considered a worst case scenarios.
Especially in light of Jobs' misguided early 3GHz claim, I'm certain that any further statements about future events are very conservative estimates.
But Jobs also hinted at new Intel technologies. Reportedly the reason why Apple switched is not the current Intel roadmap but stuff Intel has in the labs, things not announced yet. It could very well be that Jobs is waiting for these technologies to be put into some of the new Mac products, which could well mean that it will be end of 2007 when these are ready.
And lastly, Jobs himself at the end of his keynote said that what the Mac really is about is the OS, not the hardware. Therefore any Intel transition will depend on the progress OS X and all the iApps make on Intel. Watch their progress and you get a good idea when the first Intel Macs will appear.
Originally posted by Blackcat
Okay, we are now meant to believe Yonah will save the world etc etc it's clock-for-clock 2x the speed of a G4 etc etc (deja vu 970?).
So it goes in the Mac Mini first, according to CNET. At, say, 1.6GHz. Suddenly the Mini is faster than a PowerMac or PowerBook?
Makes no sense.
I reckon iMac & Powerbook, then iBook & Mini. PowerMac last.
Sure it does, you can't use that fast Mini on the subway can you? If Apple wants to get it's foot into the HT crowd, it needs to get the mini up and running with better connectivity and graphics card and power.
Originally posted by KidRed
Sure it does, you can't use that fast Mini on the subway can you? If Apple wants to get it's foot into the HT crowd, it needs to get the mini up and running with better connectivity and graphics card and power.
If they wanted to do that, they just would have, no?
Originally posted by T'hain Esh Kelch
I think it depends on Intels roadmap.. And on the fact that Apple cant afford to send out pro-machines filled with Intel mistakes. let the normal users take the plunge first and remove all flaws, and then send out machines for the pros that actually work 100%.
If anything, it will be because Intel's performance won't surpass the 970MP until 2007. Intel produces really comprehensive reference designs that allow any integrator to make their own board pretty mindlessly. And I'll let you know that the EE's I know at Intel are of a higher caliber than the ones I know at Apple. (This is more to say that the people I know at Intel are exceptional. Apple has a pretty solid team itself) I'm not worried about Apple's ability to integrate Intel devices quickly and without incident.
Originally posted by onlooker
I think the PowerBook would be the best place for Apple to first utilize the Pentium-M type derivative. There would be a huge PowerBook selling that year. I don't even need to say why.
could be...might also convince some iBook buyers to get one if they're sufficiently impatient...then upgrade iBooks 6 months later.
hope not, but it does sound feasible.
Originally posted by spliff monkey
From a software point of view, allot of pro software uses altivec and porting over the altivec instructions to intel's vector engine is what I've been told will be the most difficult part of the transition. Any app that doesn't use altivec is an easy port otherwise it'll take time.
...
No the transition effects the pros and pro software the most. It'll be the consumer machines and laptops first.
Those are the very reason why the mac mini would be the ideal machine to do the switch to Intel first. Most people purchasing mac mini don't use them for professionnal work, so they don't have specific software requirement. They only need OS X with all its goodies and maybe Microsoft Office and that's all. Apple could easily launch an Intel mac mini, which would give them time to look for unplanned issues and at the same time would give software developers a reason to hurry up the porting of their software.
Originally posted by Boukman
Those are the very reason why the mac mini would be the ideal machine to do the switch to Intel first. Most people purchasing mac mini don't use them for professionnal work, so they don't have specific software requirement. They only need OS X with all its goodies and maybe Microsoft Office and that's all. Apple could easily launch an Intel mac mini, which would give them time to look for unplanned issues and at the same time would give software developers a reason to hurry up the porting of their software.
To add to this a lot (not all) of people are looking for an entry level machine, but have not purchased a computer in awhile, if at all. Having the Intel branding, not matter how much some people revile it, will be a selling point to these people.
Also in relation to a G5 PB, I would have to say it makes no sense to release one. If it works it makes the transition to Intel harder in the future, if it fails due to Rev A issues then it wrecks the image. All I can see for G4 is processor speed bumps. Apple has enough $$ in the bank to take a slump in sales for awhile, and if Intel is as good as some people are making out, then the transition could be very notable and help to dispel some of the discontent.
Originally posted by spliff monkey
From a software point of view, allot of pro software uses altivec and porting over the altivec instructions to intel's vector engine is what I've been told will be the most difficult part of the transition.
A lot of pro software exist on both platforms so they already have the Intel optimizations.
Furthermore if you have coded your apps using Apple's recommendation, they are coded against the Accelerate framework, where the developers don't have to do anything other than making a Universal Binary.
Originally posted by spliff monkey
From a software point of view, allot of pro software uses altivec and porting over the altivec instructions to intel's vector engine is what I've been told will be the most difficult part of the transition. Any app that doesn't use altivec is an easy port otherwise it'll take time. Further, there's the issue of the RAW power of the power PC. Overall for a pro it's a better chip. OVERALL. It's not the fastest at every task but when it comes to the intense stuff it's a better chip. My own experience tells me that but there's also plenty of documentation to support that. Hence apple's MHZ don't matter bit. I know what Job's said but I'm not so sure that the powermac will ever see intel chips. I am probably wrong but with so many other buyers for the next gen PPC (sony, microsoft, nintendo) why wouldn't apple use it except for consistency. No the transition effects the pros and pro software the most. It'll be the consumer machines and laptops first. Anyone who has ever worked on the latest gen powerbooks will tell you there are few PC makers out there with anything that can touch them in terms of performance. Especially true when you consider that a BTO model with a 256 MB video card is now available and 7200 RPM hard drives are readily available. A 1.67 GHZ G4 is not such a bad machine that it prevents pros from doing anything they want and the perfoamnce gains of a 2.? GHZ intel chip are negligable. I just got done cutting a doc in the field (HDDVCAM) with an intel based dell that had some very impressive specs and it performed like a champ but it still couldn't do allot of things my PBK could do smoother or better. Just my two cents I was completely wrong about the whole switch to begin with and it does make some sense for apple to align themselves better with the rest of the industry but the pro machines are a real nitch MKT keeping the Power macs PPC is actually an option since they really already make so few of them in comparison to the rest of their line. They are speciallity machines and have always been priced and treated as such by apple. No they can't rock the boat too heavy on the pro machines. PBK's might get the new chips because the G5 just isn't ready for the mobile realm but it won't happen until the software people with $4,000 powerbooks use is ready and from what I can tell those apps will be the last to switch.
Agree with you, just grow much boring on many years programming for the very old X86 architecture, and more interesting on PPC clean and pure RISC architecture, and love to program on it. They are going to stop the line. Hopefully can tell when will be the last PPC iMAC, i will keep on buying this wonderful machine.