When will OS X use KiB, MiB, GiB??

Posted:
in macOS edited January 2014
Hi,

I was just wondering when/if Apple would update the nomenclature for file sizes through-out the OS? Currently, the Finder (Get Info, List view,etc) reports file sizes as KB, MB, GB, etc. However, this can be confusing to users who assume 1 GB = 10 Billion Byes, instead of 1 GB = 1 073 741 824 Bytes. For example, making this distinction will allow users to understand why when they buy a 60 GB (gigabyte) iPod that iTunes reports it as 55.8 GB (correctly 55.8 GiB - gibibyte). This would help prevent new users from assuming GB (binary) == GB (decimal). The IEC made this change standard back in December 1998, yet neither Windows, Mac, or Linux uses Kib, MiB, or GiB to this day. Why?
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 53
    telomartelomar Posts: 1,804member
    Although I'd love to see it happen and think the prefixes are logical and it'd make life easier I am also aware I am an engineer and therefore not chronically idiotic like the vast majority of the world. Seriously most people are stupid and would have trouble telling you what the prefixes kilo and mega mean, despite having definitely learnt it in high school. They are easily confused by even the most basic things.



    It's just too hard, people don't want to think about it. They prefer their bubbles where they can complain about everything despite not knowing anything about it. As a result why spend the time fixing it when you're an OS writer.



    Meanwhile that was particularly harsh even for me
  • Reply 2 of 53
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Why? 50 years of inertia.



    Why don't all CS faculty use it? 50 years of inertia.



    Why doesn't the US use the metric system. It was the law once upon a time. Inertia, so they repealed the law.



    It would surprise me greatly if this tide of human inertia could be turned. You need to rewrite every textbook, nearly every web reference and every piece of software ever written that references bytes.
  • Reply 3 of 53
    Quote:

    Originally posted by mactropolis

    Hi,

    I was just wondering when/if Apple would update the nomenclature for file sizes through-out the OS? Currently, the Finder (Get Info, List view,etc) reports file sizes as KB, MB, GB, etc. However, this can be confusing to users who assume 1 GB = 10 Billion Byes, instead of 1 GB = 1 073 741 824 Bytes. For example, making this distinction will allow users to understand why when they buy a 60 GB (gigabyte) iPod that iTunes reports it as 55.8 GB (correctly 55.8 GiB - gibibyte). This would help prevent new users from assuming GB (binary) == GB (decimal). The IEC made this change standard back in December 1998, yet neither Windows, Mac, or Linux uses Kib, MiB, or GiB to this day. Why?




    for most average users this is a non-issue. when people are low on space or are wondering how big a file is, they can find out with enough accuracy to adjust appropriately.
  • Reply 4 of 53
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Until they start freaking out that their iPod doesn't have the advertised space available, or that they 'lost' space on their hard drive.



    We have a new thread about it darned near weekly these days. \



    I'd *LOVE* to see the Finder move to ki/Mi/Gi ASAFP, to at least illustrate the difference. Users wouldn't have to be able to convert, just know that MB is a wee bit less than a MiB, a GB is a bit less than a GiB, etc. That way when they see that their 40GB iPod shows as 36.4GiB in the Finder (pulling the # outta my rear here), they don't throw a hissy fit, but just go "Oh yeah, that's going to be a little less, that looks reasonable."



    User interface surprises are a no-no.
  • Reply 5 of 53
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Until they start freaking out that their iPod doesn't have the advertised space available, or that they 'lost' space on their hard drive.



    We have a new thread about it darned near weekly these days. \



    I'd *LOVE* to see the Finder move to ki/Mi/Gi ASAFP, to at least illustrate the difference. Users wouldn't have to be able to convert, just know that MB is a wee bit less than a MiB, a GB is a bit less than a GiB, etc. That way when they see that their 40GB iPod shows as 36.4GiB in the Finder (pulling the # outta my rear here), they don't throw a hissy fit, but just go "Oh yeah, that's going to be a little less, that looks reasonable."



    User interface surprises are a no-no.




    Exactly.



    Newbies are the ones who can benefit from this the most, not confusing GB (binary) with GB (decimal). In tech support, I get asked all the time from people who buy harddrives why they get less than their realize once their plug the drives into their boxes. Isn't the simplier solution to update the OS to report GiB instead of GB?
  • Reply 6 of 53
    Because that's the actual size. Screw the users. If they're too stupid to figure it out, who cares? It is binary data and so should be measured with a binary measure. Heck, it's the drive manufactures who should switch to GB, not the other way around. RAM is measured in GB, so should HD space.
  • Reply 7 of 53
    telomartelomar Posts: 1,804member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Thinine

    Because that's the actual size. Screw the users. If they're too stupid to figure it out, who cares? It is binary data and so should be measured with a binary measure. Heck, it's the drive manufactures who should switch to GB, not the other way around. RAM is measured in GB, so should HD space.



    RAM has a dependency on transistors and as a result binary, HDs don't. Same as bandwidth so most large bandwidth companies and HD manufacturers stuck with proper prefix usage.

    Quote:

    Originally posted by Hiro

    Why doesn't the US use the metric system. It was the law once upon a time. Inertia, so they repealed the law.



    I thought there were also complaints of cost from retailers. To do it now would be nigh on impossible in certain areas.
  • Reply 8 of 53
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Thinine

    Screw the users. If they're too stupid to figure it out, who cares?



    I have to say that I agree with Thinine. Most people I know will believe anything I tell them about their computer. Sometimes its fun to mess with people's heads.
  • Reply 9 of 53
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Telomar

    I thought there were also complaints of cost from retailers. To do it now would be nigh on impossible in certain areas.



    That's the inertia for you. Impossible? No. That's just as ludicrous as the Indiana farmers saying the extra hour of daylight savings time was going to ruin the wheat crop and confuse their livestock.
  • Reply 10 of 53
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Actually, the drive manufacturers were sued en masse a few years ago on exactly this point - and the result was, they measure in GB.



    Thinine, I hate to be an ass, but your post is illustrative of *exactly* the kind of ignorance I'm talking about. GB is decimal. Period. End of story. Anyone who uses GB/gigabyte to label a base-2 2^30-measured item is being as stupid as reporting a foot as 12cm. *It's the wrong metric.*



    Everyone on the planet *EXCEPT* makers of RAM and writers of OSs uses GB correctly. They're just wrong, that's all there is to it.



    Inertia is what kept the Church burning astronomers at the stake for daring to say the Earth was round. We can do better than that.
  • Reply 11 of 53
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Inertia is what kept the Church burning astronomers at the stake for daring to say the Earth was round. We can do better than that.



    "Intertia" is what keeps the church going today.
  • Reply 12 of 53
    telomartelomar Posts: 1,804member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Hiro

    That's the inertia for you. Impossible? No. That's just as ludicrous as the Indiana farmers saying the extra hour of daylight savings time was going to ruin the wheat crop and confuse their livestock.



    Try switching every street sign and dealing with mph cars speedos in a day. That's more what makes metric impossible to implement now. They could spend the next 20 years releasing combined speedos but that'd just confuse people. I'm generally of the opinion that people are too stupid to live in most instances. The sad part is they usually prove you right.

    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Inertia is what kept the Church burning astronomers at the stake for daring to say the Earth was round. We can do better than that.



    We can't still do that?? *runs away to quickly put out the fire*
  • Reply 13 of 53
    keotkeot Posts: 116member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Telomar

    Try switching every street sign and dealing with mph cars speedos in a day. That's more what makes metric impossible to implement now. They could spend the next 20 years releasing combined speedos but that'd just confuse people. I'm generally of the opinion that people are too stupid to live in most instances. The sad part is they usually prove you right.

    We can't still do that?? *runs away to quickly put out the fire*




    Here in England we buy our petrol in litres, measure the economy of our engines in miles per gallon, and have road-signs displaying distances in miles with speed-limits in miles per hour.

    Our speedos have both metric and imperial units on them, something you need when travelling across Europe.



    It isn't that confusing.



    I know my height in feet and inches but not centimetres, yet I know my weight in both kilograms and stones.

    I buy a 500ml bottle of coke and eat a 35g packet of crisps (potato chips). I think in metric for most things, and imperial for others. I don't convert between the two, I use what is the norm.



    * * *



    I've got used to people messing around with units, but I wish my operating system used them correctly. Changing it should be simple, seeing as the French use octets (ko, Mo, Go) instead of bytes (kiB, MiB, GiB). I presume OS X supports both, so why can't another be added?
  • Reply 14 of 53
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Telomar

    Try switching every street sign and dealing with mph cars speedos in a day. That's more what makes metric impossible to implement now. They could spend the next 20 years releasing combined speedos but that'd just confuse people. I'm generally of the opinion that people are too stupid to live in most instances. The sad part is they usually prove you right.

    We can't still do that?? *runs away to quickly put out the fire*




    Since the mid-70's every instrument cluster speedo shipped on a US delivered car has been dual scale. So much for the mass confusion factor there, it's nonexistent. Switching the signs is just $$, which is just inertia. No showstoppers here, just folks that don't want to be bothered with it.
  • Reply 15 of 53
    danosaurdanosaur Posts: 258member
    In Canada we used to use imperial and then switched over to metric. It took a few years of having the road signs display two speeds: miles and kilometers.
  • Reply 16 of 53
    smirclesmircle Posts: 1,035member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Telomar

    Try switching every street sign and dealing with mph cars speedos in a day. That's more what makes metric impossible to implement now.



    I dunno, Sweden switched from left- to right-handside driving in 1967 (link). This is a much more serious challenge than switching to the metric system, imho.
  • Reply 17 of 53
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Absolutely. Switching to metric is more a case of convincing lazy folks.



    Switching to GiB, MiB, etc, isn't any different. It's just lazy inertia and ignorance that keeps it going for no good reason.
  • Reply 18 of 53
    Exactly Kickaha.



    All of the vendors are too afraid to be the first to switch to what is the correct measurement. For once, I would like Microsoft and Apple to come together and announce that by Vista/Leapard, each OS will use Kib, MiB, Gib, once and for-all replacing the old system. The KDE's and GNOME's will tag along. I hate having to explain to a person, especially to an un-willing person, that a "Gigabyte" is not necessarily always a "Gigabyte". In a few years people will be buying 500 and 600 GB harddrives and wondering "OMG why do I only get 465 GB/558 GB (respectively)?!?! Where did that 35/42 GB go?!?" Today, the decimal vs. binary difference is somewhat insignificant. What about when our harddrives are double or tripple what we buy today??
  • Reply 19 of 53
    telomartelomar Posts: 1,804member
    Ok it could be done. Sloth it is. I wish one company would make the effort though.
  • Reply 20 of 53
    hirohiro Posts: 2,663member
    Here's the rub against it's only pure laziness. As soon as one company changes course, the class action suits begin: "You have been fraudulently advertising for __ years...". Apple is fighting one of those right now over iBook HD sizes, first case of that type I have heard of. But as soon as one vendor changes publicly they open themselves and everyone else up. It's just a lot easier to ignore it and flow with the inertia instead of fighting it.
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