I'm not worrying about Quicktime vs WMP, or MPEG-4 vs WMV, or any of those other issues that people are bringing up.
You should, if you give half a care about who owns your media content. If WMV wins out, you will pay MS/MPAA/RIAA for every single playback, viewing, etc, and only on *their* approved equipment. If MPEG-4 wins out, it's an open field, and you'll retain your rights to fair use.
You should care very very much.
Quote:
All I'm saying is that Apple should make Quicktime work as well as VLC. And I'm just wondering why they don't.
They've done better - they've produced a framework where *ANYONE* can add a plugin for *ANYTHING*. If you want a particular codec in QT vs. VLC, then write it. Better yet, contact the developers that do the codec library, and ask them for a QT wrapper for it. It's not rocket science, and I've written a QT plugin myself.
If no one's writing a plugin for it, then there obviously can't be much of a desire for it, can there?
Apple's not going to do it, because it would just mean watering down their MPEG-4 push, and that, more than anything else, is the needed focus.
You should, if you give half a care about who owns your media content. If WMV wins out, you will pay MS/MPAA/RIAA for every single playback, viewing, etc, and only on *their* approved equipment. If MPEG-4 wins out, it's an open field, and you'll retain your rights to fair use.
You should care very very much.
That's like saying iTunes ruined free music. It didn't.
That's like saying iTunes ruined free music. It didn't.
*slaps forehead*
AAC = part of MPEG-4. Open standard.
WMA = Closed.
You've got your argument backwards.
Look, if you want to play back files in legacy formats, then you need to either use VLC (which I do for some things), convince the developers maintaining support for those formats to provide a QT plugin (which I've done), or write one yourself (which I've done).
QuickTime provides a best-of-breed framework, but it's up to the developers/users of the various formats to enhance it to work with the codec du jour. Apple will continue to concentrate on the open standards that have the best opportunity for ensuring that MS doesn't own the media world. I applaud that, and will continue to support them *NOT* trying to support every little codec out there. If *you* want it, they've provided the means for *you* to do so.
So get to it.
FWIW, you're not unique in this, I've had this exact same discussion with proponents of Ogg Vorbis, complaining that QT/iTunes doesn't play back their codec of choice. Of course, *they* have even less of an excuse, being OSS fans, and having been handed all the tools to make the plugin themselves.
And guess what? An Ogg Vorbis plugin now exists, it works well, and it lets *any* QT app use it. Success all around.
And a Quicktime monopoly is no better or worse than a WMV monopoly.
I guess the thing is, you can easily download whatever codec you want for WMP or for VLC. They even have codec "packages" that contain everything you could ever want...but for some reason it doesn't work with Quicktime. I mean, I've installed everything I can find, but Quicktime crashes, or there is no sound, or it's out of sync, or SOMETHING goes wrong, and I just end up opening the file in VLC and it works perfectly.
That's like saying it's Apple's fault that <insert your favorite Windows-only software application/PC game here> only runs on Windows. Put blame where blame is due. MS's WiMP doesn't ship with all kinds of crazy codecs installed. You yourself said that you had to download them from third-party software developers, or sites that create packages of third-party codecs together. When you refer to 'they' it's not Microsoft. Microsoft does not package or even endorse third-party codecs. They want you to use their own codecs.
You cannot fault Apple for faulty third-party software either. Both Apple and Microsoft provide a framework for third-party developers to hook into Quicktime and Windows Media Player through creation of codecs. Many of the video players for Windows just hook themselves into this framework and play videos using codecs created for Windows Media Player. I've even seen a couple of ones for OS X that use Quicktime. The difference between these and VLC is that VLC compiles all of the codec support directly into the application. They directly link against the codec libraries rather than just linking against a codec framework. If you have any beefs with Apple's Quicktime framework, then you should state them. Otherwise, it's just buggy third-party software that is causing Quicktime to crash. Even at that, some of the codecs you are trying to use might have been developed for a previous version of Quicktime and are no longer compatible with the current version of Quicktime.
You're no sound problem isn't even a video problem. If you have the video codec, but not that audio codec, then you will have video without audio. I've seen some really old videos (created with DivX3.11alpha way back when) that used Windows Media Audio as the audio codec rather than MP3 (the norm). You really can't blame Apple for not supporting some wacky combination of codecs that was never really meant to be, but was hacked together in some basement as a proof-of-concept. What about the craze around Windows Media Video 9 where people were creating AVIs that had WMV3 (the actual fourcc for WMV9) video in them? Windows Media Player doesn't support it. You can't really blame Apple for that either. It's not Apple's fault in those cases where someone hacks together a way to make something crazy work in Windows Media Player.
Quote:
Standards are good, but it should be POSSIBLE to use Quicktime for whatever you want.
It is possible. You just have to write the Quicktime pluging for it. You're basically complaining that someone else hasn't gotten off their ass and made something that you want to see. If you really want/need it that badly you could always hire a software developer to create it for you.
Quote:
Likewise, it's great that the Video iPod is pushing the Quicktime standard, but I don't see any problem with allowing for a simple codec download to play DivX, or XviD, or ANY file format on Video iPod.
It's not that simple. The video decoding is not done by software like it is on your Mac. The video decoding is done through a hardware chip (manufactured by a company that was bought by Broadcom). If the hardware chip doesn't support that, all you can do is wait until the next revision to see if that chip supports it. A/V decoding isn't some trivial task accomplished with a couple of ASM commands. It can be very processor intensive. Just look at the requirements for decoding of H.264 encoded HD content. Off-loading the task to a chip helps. Especially when the chip is optimized for a particular task. The problem is that it's hardware not software. You can't download a new chip and double-click to solder it into your video iPod.
Quote:
Isn't a UNIVERSAL video player better than a player that plays only the standard, even if the stardard happens to be the best?
Yes.
Quote:
Anyways, I just think the OPTION should be there.
Of course, the option is there: just use VLC.
It just seems that Apple is forcing people NOT to use Quicktime.
Stedwick
Apple isn't forcing anyone to do anything. Apple is providing Quicktime with functionality comparable to what Microsoft provides with Windows. MS provides WiMP with WMV support, MPEG1, AVI, MP3 and a couple of other things. Quicktime supports H.264, Sorenson, MOV, AVI, MP3, AAC and a handful of other things. I don't see how there should be any reason to complain about Apple, but point to Microsoft as being better. The only reason they have better support is becaue they have a larger usebase of people willing to create software (and use it). That's it.
Comments
Originally posted by stedwick
It's not that complicated:
VLC works
Quicktime doesn't
I'm not worrying about Quicktime vs WMP, or MPEG-4 vs WMV, or any of those other issues that people are bringing up.
You should, if you give half a care about who owns your media content. If WMV wins out, you will pay MS/MPAA/RIAA for every single playback, viewing, etc, and only on *their* approved equipment. If MPEG-4 wins out, it's an open field, and you'll retain your rights to fair use.
You should care very very much.
All I'm saying is that Apple should make Quicktime work as well as VLC. And I'm just wondering why they don't.
They've done better - they've produced a framework where *ANYONE* can add a plugin for *ANYTHING*. If you want a particular codec in QT vs. VLC, then write it. Better yet, contact the developers that do the codec library, and ask them for a QT wrapper for it. It's not rocket science, and I've written a QT plugin myself.
If no one's writing a plugin for it, then there obviously can't be much of a desire for it, can there?
Apple's not going to do it, because it would just mean watering down their MPEG-4 push, and that, more than anything else, is the needed focus.
Originally posted by Kickaha
You should, if you give half a care about who owns your media content. If WMV wins out, you will pay MS/MPAA/RIAA for every single playback, viewing, etc, and only on *their* approved equipment. If MPEG-4 wins out, it's an open field, and you'll retain your rights to fair use.
You should care very very much.
That's like saying iTunes ruined free music. It didn't.
Stedwick
Originally posted by stedwick
That's like saying iTunes ruined free music. It didn't.
*slaps forehead*
AAC = part of MPEG-4. Open standard.
WMA = Closed.
You've got your argument backwards.
Look, if you want to play back files in legacy formats, then you need to either use VLC (which I do for some things), convince the developers maintaining support for those formats to provide a QT plugin (which I've done), or write one yourself (which I've done).
QuickTime provides a best-of-breed framework, but it's up to the developers/users of the various formats to enhance it to work with the codec du jour. Apple will continue to concentrate on the open standards that have the best opportunity for ensuring that MS doesn't own the media world. I applaud that, and will continue to support them *NOT* trying to support every little codec out there. If *you* want it, they've provided the means for *you* to do so.
So get to it.
FWIW, you're not unique in this, I've had this exact same discussion with proponents of Ogg Vorbis, complaining that QT/iTunes doesn't play back their codec of choice. Of course, *they* have even less of an excuse, being OSS fans, and having been handed all the tools to make the plugin themselves.
And guess what? An Ogg Vorbis plugin now exists, it works well, and it lets *any* QT app use it. Success all around.
Originally posted by stedwick
But Windows Media Player plays everything...
And a Quicktime monopoly is no better or worse than a WMV monopoly.
I guess the thing is, you can easily download whatever codec you want for WMP or for VLC. They even have codec "packages" that contain everything you could ever want...but for some reason it doesn't work with Quicktime. I mean, I've installed everything I can find, but Quicktime crashes, or there is no sound, or it's out of sync, or SOMETHING goes wrong, and I just end up opening the file in VLC and it works perfectly.
That's like saying it's Apple's fault that <insert your favorite Windows-only software application/PC game here> only runs on Windows. Put blame where blame is due. MS's WiMP doesn't ship with all kinds of crazy codecs installed. You yourself said that you had to download them from third-party software developers, or sites that create packages of third-party codecs together. When you refer to 'they' it's not Microsoft. Microsoft does not package or even endorse third-party codecs. They want you to use their own codecs.
You cannot fault Apple for faulty third-party software either. Both Apple and Microsoft provide a framework for third-party developers to hook into Quicktime and Windows Media Player through creation of codecs. Many of the video players for Windows just hook themselves into this framework and play videos using codecs created for Windows Media Player. I've even seen a couple of ones for OS X that use Quicktime. The difference between these and VLC is that VLC compiles all of the codec support directly into the application. They directly link against the codec libraries rather than just linking against a codec framework. If you have any beefs with Apple's Quicktime framework, then you should state them. Otherwise, it's just buggy third-party software that is causing Quicktime to crash. Even at that, some of the codecs you are trying to use might have been developed for a previous version of Quicktime and are no longer compatible with the current version of Quicktime.
You're no sound problem isn't even a video problem. If you have the video codec, but not that audio codec, then you will have video without audio. I've seen some really old videos (created with DivX3.11alpha way back when) that used Windows Media Audio as the audio codec rather than MP3 (the norm). You really can't blame Apple for not supporting some wacky combination of codecs that was never really meant to be, but was hacked together in some basement as a proof-of-concept. What about the craze around Windows Media Video 9 where people were creating AVIs that had WMV3 (the actual fourcc for WMV9) video in them? Windows Media Player doesn't support it. You can't really blame Apple for that either. It's not Apple's fault in those cases where someone hacks together a way to make something crazy work in Windows Media Player.
Standards are good, but it should be POSSIBLE to use Quicktime for whatever you want.
It is possible. You just have to write the Quicktime pluging for it. You're basically complaining that someone else hasn't gotten off their ass and made something that you want to see. If you really want/need it that badly you could always hire a software developer to create it for you.
Likewise, it's great that the Video iPod is pushing the Quicktime standard, but I don't see any problem with allowing for a simple codec download to play DivX, or XviD, or ANY file format on Video iPod.
It's not that simple. The video decoding is not done by software like it is on your Mac. The video decoding is done through a hardware chip (manufactured by a company that was bought by Broadcom). If the hardware chip doesn't support that, all you can do is wait until the next revision to see if that chip supports it. A/V decoding isn't some trivial task accomplished with a couple of ASM commands. It can be very processor intensive. Just look at the requirements for decoding of H.264 encoded HD content. Off-loading the task to a chip helps. Especially when the chip is optimized for a particular task. The problem is that it's hardware not software. You can't download a new chip and double-click to solder it into your video iPod.
Isn't a UNIVERSAL video player better than a player that plays only the standard, even if the stardard happens to be the best?
Yes.
Anyways, I just think the OPTION should be there.
Of course, the option is there: just use VLC.
It just seems that Apple is forcing people NOT to use Quicktime.
Stedwick
Apple isn't forcing anyone to do anything. Apple is providing Quicktime with functionality comparable to what Microsoft provides with Windows. MS provides WiMP with WMV support, MPEG1, AVI, MP3 and a couple of other things. Quicktime supports H.264, Sorenson, MOV, AVI, MP3, AAC and a handful of other things. I don't see how there should be any reason to complain about Apple, but point to Microsoft as being better. The only reason they have better support is becaue they have a larger usebase of people willing to create software (and use it). That's it.