Ok thanks, actually I checked on it this morning and nothing really had happened. I decided it was too cool in the closet I had it in (which I has originally put it in because I thought it'd be warmer).
I stuck it in my basement which is 68º?my yeast's optimal temperature is 70º?75º. I definitely saw a froth form within a couple hours and as time went on it has built up significantly and the airlock has started to bubble like it should be.
I'm a little disappointed, my brother's beer was down in the basement the whole time, so he got a night's head start on me I believe I am going to get one of those sticky thermometers that go on the side of the carboy, he has one on each of his and it seems to be an excellent way to monitor temperature.
Thanks to everyone for all the help, I'll be sure to give an update when I'm done how it went...and if I get violently ill after drinking it or anything
In the past I've purchased brewery overruns but I stopped doing that when I started entering competitions which usually require no markings on the crowns or bottles. These days I keg most of my beverages but when I bottle I use the plain crowns and small removable Avery labels on the tops so I can quickly remove them before sending them off to a competition.
However, if you're interested in custom crowns I believe most companies that print packaging for the brewing industry also do the crowns. Here's one for example.
I've never purchased from them but I had bookmarked them some time ago when I was considering doing something similar.
Since you're not doing huge batches you may want to label the bottles to show up your brother. When I give gifts of homemade beverages I usually label a few presentation bottles. With a little artistic ability and an inkjet printer you can get some nice results. I use Epson coated paper for high DPI printing and apply them with a regular glue stick. They are remarkably water resistant and look very nice.
A note on the therm strips. Keep in mind that the temperature in the center of the carboy is going to be a few degrees warmer than at the outside. Fermentation is exothermic so don't worry if the strip reads a few degrees below the optimum for your yeast.
Since you're not doing huge batches you may want to label the bottles to show up your brother. When I give gifts of homemade beverages I usually label a few presentation bottles. With a little artistic ability and an inkjet printer you can get some nice results. I use Epson coated paper for high DPI printing and apply them with a regular glue stick. They are remarkably water resistant and look very nice.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind about the therm strips.
I emailed atlatlabels and asked for a price quote, but I can't say that website looks very professional. I am still waiting for a reply, hopefully tomorrow I'll get one.
I think I will make my own labels too, I like designing things...heh.
I have to say my thing is started making a sulfer-ish smell which is a little worrisome. That a normal thing or is my cider going to taste like eggs?
Also when I syphon out the cider and want to add the corn sugar, do I mix that in or just pour it in. I mean, I've read to be careful not to disturb it too much or it'll start reacting more, or is that basically just talking about my first carboy?
Also do you normally do double fermentation like people do with beer a lot? Does that increase it's flavor?
The sulfur smell is completely normal. Not to worry. It will fade and disappear.
Dissolve the corn sugar in a small amount of boiling water, gently pour it in and mix gently. Ideally you add the solution to your bottling bucket and rack the cider on top. This way it mixes as rack.
Using multiple fermenters doesn't increase the flavor in cider or beer it's done to aid clearing and get the beverage off the spent yeast to reduce autolysis which can produce off flavors. While it's not strictly required I do do it for both cider and beer.
Thanks for the help, I don't think I'm going to do a double stage fermentation with this first batch, although I'll consider it for the future.
I got a reply from the atlaslabels and apparently for a three color crown it would be a minimum of 400,000 caps ordered...which I can't even begin to speculate the price.
However for a single color crown (that is a crown with a single color printed on it?I believe using a colored crown and putting a color on top of that would be best) it is $260 for 500. This isn't bad and I'll probably eventually do it but I doubt I'll do it until next summer at least.
He did point me to 4th & Vine for labels though...he didn't give me a quote on them, so I assume they are ridiculously expensive for an average person to have created.
Thanks for all the help, I just have to wait...and I'm pretty sure I know how to do everything now I've even ordered some things to experiment with other batches. Things for oak flavoring and some grape tannin. Maybe I'll get some Bocksin which is supposed to help stop that hydrogen sulfide smell. I just need some more money so when I can get several small carboys and do more smaller batches so I can experiment more.
One last question...probably not, but sorry for all the questions \
As an example, the oak things are supposed to be in contact for 2-3 months. Is it ok to leave the cider in the secondary fermenter for that long....or even longer? It's my understanding that as long as there isn't air in the containers, nothing bad will really happen even for extended periods of time. Well the autolysis but there shouldn't be much yeast in the secondary fermenter right?
Also did you learn all this from trial and error, or can you recommend a good book?see told you it wasn't the last question.
For anyone still following this thread, there is a?I think interesting write up as to why beer is so popular today in place of cider. I was amazed at how popular cider once was.
lol... Yeah, I don't think I would be ordering custom crowns then either. For just a colored crown you should check around at homebrew shops near you. I've been to several that sell colored crowns for a few dollars a pound. Usually not an item they have all the time though. Having anything printed is usually pretty expensive but could be worth it if you make the same thing over and over again. That's the concept that kept me from having labels and coasters made in the past.
About aging, yes, as long as there is no oxygen (or light or temperature swings) you can leave the cider in the carboy for months or even years. The flavor will continue to change and develop.
I've been kegging cider for years now and it's essentially the same concept. I fill a keg with cider, purge the air in the headspace with CO2 and set it aside for the following year. I don't add preservatives and it's perfectly drinkable three years later.
Books... hmmm... There really aren't any what I would call great books on cider. "Cider" is a fairly good book. It however spends most of it's time on apple related topics that are more interesting to know rather than all that useful to the average person. I also have a couple of small books about traditional cider making in the UK that I can't think of the names of off hand. The problem with them is they focus on older methods and assume you have acres of trees. Although I have a grinder and press it really doesn't require a book on the subject. When it comes down to it cider is a very simple beverage to make.
That link you provided is very interesting. At one time I had a long email conversation with a person on the subject of cider history. Looking at the material on that site I can imagine it might have been one of his students.
Ok, so I know it's not done, but I took a hydrometer reading and tasted it. It wasn't very good...at all. It was pretty bland and had no apple flavor really. Also didn't have the best aftertaste. My brother and I agreed, but my mom thought it was HORRIBLE and described it as liquid throw up...and revised it then to a bile aftertaste.
So?
1) Is the flavor going to get better? How do you mess up adding yeast and apple cider? I had a bottle of real apple cider last night, and drank it all it was delicious and tasted almost good on it's way up (don't mix a bottle of hard apple cider any pills)
2) My main concern is that it doesn't taste good right now, but I'd really like to have some hard apple cider that...well tastes like apple cider and not like apple wine. Is there a way to preserve the original flavor/sugars from changing and have alcohol added? I know with beer there are enzymes that can prevent sugars from being turned into alcohol, I was thinking if I could do that with the cider and then just add sugar afterwards to ferment it would keep the flavor and still be alcoholic.
3) I have a different type of yeast so maybe I'll try another batch if this ends up not being good, but from the pre taste, I'm pretty disappointed and may have to move into my luck with wine.
1. Cider does improve with age but I'm a little concerned that your mother would describe the flavor as "throw up" and "bile" like. That is not a typical flavor profile one would expect from a recently fermented cider unless there was a bacterial infection.
2. There is no way of preserving the original flavor and just increasing alcohol content except by taking the juice and adding a shot of vodka to it. It's just like wine in the respect that the final product is only reminiscent of the original fruit.
When making beer, you control the levels of fermentable sugars by controlling the temperature of the mash. With cider nearly all of the sugars are fermentable. There are several methods for creating a sweeter cider.
A) Slow fermentation with frequent racking. This is a very old technique for creating a sweeter cider. What you do is ferment cool (high 50's to mid 60's) so the yeast is working slowly. You then rack frequently, whenever a layer of yeast settles out. This can work but not always and is usually not worth the effort in my opinion.
Add more fermentables than the yeast can handle. The idea is alcohol is toxic to yeast and eventually the environment will become too toxic for the yeast to survive. This is slightly different than just adding white sugar. If you just add white sugar you'll boost the alcohol content but you'll also end up reducing the body and apple characteristics of the cider. However, you can add apple juice concentrate and ferment until the yeast poop out. Then dilute to the alcohol content you want. In practice this doesn't work out too well because cider yeast tolerates alcohol fairly well.
C) Ferment completely, stabilize, and re-sweeten. This is what I do when I want a sweet cider and what some commercial companies do in a slightly modified process. Basically you let the fermentation go to complete dryness. You mentioned using a hydrometer so it would be at or very near 1.000. You then stabilize with a combination of metabisulfate and sorbate and sweeten with apple juice or apple juice concentrate.
D) Turn it into cider jack. This is illegal in the US because it is a form of distillation (fractional crystallization) but... What you do is freeze the cider in a large mouth container and after a layer of ice forms, remove the ice. This removes the water and concentrates the flavors and alcohol.
3. The yeast probably isn't the issue here. The yeast would be the last thing I changed. I would make sure that you've sanitized everything and switch juice brands. Sanitization would be the number one cause of off flavors. Not all apple juices make a great tasting cider. For example. I would stay away from a juice that is 100% Gravenstein. Those tend to make a cider that tastes mealy. In fact I would stay away from most juices that claim to be 100% of any particular variety of apple. There's no way I can think of to really describe it but with practice you can taste different apple juices and pick out the flavors that will come through in the final cider.
As a final note I would say not to be too quick to dump a cider that you initially think is bad. I would top it off and set it aside in a cool, dark location and give it a few months. If it still doesn't taste agreeable or begins to show other signs of infection I would then dump it.
[B]1. Cider does improve with age but I'm a little concerned that your mother would describe the flavor as "throw up" and "bile" like. That is not a typical flavor profile one would expect from a recently fermented cider unless there was a bacterial infection.
Thanks, like I said, my brother and I didn't think it tasted like that and she revised her opinion...maybe she just felt bad though . We thought it was just kinda bland, though he did say he thought the after taste was off. My brother just described it as tasting a bit sweet but finishing very dry.
Quote:
C) Ferment completely, stabilize, and re-sweeten. This is what I do when I want a sweet cider and what some commercial companies do in a slightly modified process. Basically you let the fermentation go to complete dryness. You mentioned using a hydrometer so it would be at or very near 1.000. You then stabilize with a combination of metabisulfate and sorbate and sweeten with apple juice or apple juice concentrate.
I thought about this, but since juice/concentrate spoils won't it still spoil, even if diluted? Also how would you make sparkling cider with this method? What kind of juice do I do with this, something that has preservatives or not?
Quote:
3. The yeast probably isn't the issue here. The yeast would be the last thing I changed. I would make sure that you've sanitized everything and switch juice brands. Sanitization would be the number one cause of off flavors. Not all apple juices make a great tasting cider. For example. I would stay away from a juice that is 100% Gravenstein. Those tend to make a cider that tastes mealy. In fact I would stay away from most juices that claim to be 100% of any particular variety of apple. There's no way I can think of to really describe it but with practice you can taste different apple juices and pick out the flavors that will come through in the final cider.
I'm not sure I can find a different type of cider around here, unless I make my own.
Quote:
As a final note I would say not to be too quick to dump a cider that you initially think is bad. I would top it off and set it aside in a cool, dark location and give it a few months. If it still doesn't taste agreeable or begins to show other signs of infection I would then dump it.
I thought about this, but since juice/concentrate spoils won't it still spoil, even if diluted? Also how would you make sparkling cider with this method? What kind of juice do I do with this, something that has preservatives or not? What other signs of infection? Mold?
lol... my junk mail filter started tagging appleinsider notifications as possible spam. Funny.
To answer your questions... No, it shouldn't spoil because metabisulfite, sorbate, alcohol, and the lowered ph all act to preserve the cider. After, if you wanted sparkling cider you would have to force carbonate. To sweeten I would use concentrate rather than juice but it doesn't matter if you use juice that has preservatives or not. Another option I didn't mention is to serve the cider with fresh juice. Simply pour some juice in a glass and top up with cider. I've known some people to do that but I don't particularly like it that way.
Other signs of infection... off colors/odors/flavors, floating masses (after fermentation), films, ropiness/oiliness/thickening, gushing. The most common would be the off odor/flavor. Usually this would be a vinegar flavor and aroma. With this infection the cider is being turned to vinegar by bacteria. It's not something that will hurt you and oddly enough turns the whole batch into something people pay a lot of money for in the health food stores, apple cider vinegar. However, since that isn't your goal it's not something to encourage.
The second most common would be films and ropiness. Films are molds that grow out on the surface, usually white and powdery and ropiness is caused by a bacteria that turns the cider into a gelatinous mess. In all cases of infection the best course of action is to dump the cider, wash everything, and sanitize. When I say everything I mean in addition to all your equipment you'll end up cleaning a lot more of your house than you really wanted. If you're making cider in the kitchen you'll want to disinfect all surfaces, floors, counters, cabinets, sinks, etc. Not a bad idea even if you never have a problem.
Comments
I stuck it in my basement which is 68º?my yeast's optimal temperature is 70º?75º. I definitely saw a froth form within a couple hours and as time went on it has built up significantly and the airlock has started to bubble like it should be.
I'm a little disappointed, my brother's beer was down in the basement the whole time, so he got a night's head start on me
Thanks to everyone for all the help, I'll be sure to give an update when I'm done how it went...and if I get violently ill after drinking it or anything
However, if you're interested in custom crowns I believe most companies that print packaging for the brewing industry also do the crowns. Here's one for example.
http://atlaslabels.com/
I've never purchased from them but I had bookmarked them some time ago when I was considering doing something similar.
Since you're not doing huge batches you may want to label the bottles to show up your brother. When I give gifts of homemade beverages I usually label a few presentation bottles. With a little artistic ability and an inkjet printer you can get some nice results. I use Epson coated paper for high DPI printing and apply them with a regular glue stick. They are remarkably water resistant and look very nice.
A note on the therm strips. Keep in mind that the temperature in the center of the carboy is going to be a few degrees warmer than at the outside. Fermentation is exothermic so don't worry if the strip reads a few degrees below the optimum for your yeast.
Originally posted by Hauntmaster
Since you're not doing huge batches you may want to label the bottles to show up your brother. When I give gifts of homemade beverages I usually label a few presentation bottles. With a little artistic ability and an inkjet printer you can get some nice results. I use Epson coated paper for high DPI printing and apply them with a regular glue stick. They are remarkably water resistant and look very nice.
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind about the therm strips.
I emailed atlatlabels and asked for a price quote, but I can't say that website looks very professional. I am still waiting for a reply, hopefully tomorrow I'll get one.
I think I will make my own labels too, I like designing things...heh.
I have to say my thing is started making a sulfer-ish smell which is a little worrisome. That a normal thing or is my cider going to taste like eggs?
Also when I syphon out the cider and want to add the corn sugar, do I mix that in or just pour it in. I mean, I've read to be careful not to disturb it too much or it'll start reacting more, or is that basically just talking about my first carboy?
Also do you normally do double fermentation like people do with beer a lot? Does that increase it's flavor?
Dissolve the corn sugar in a small amount of boiling water, gently pour it in and mix gently. Ideally you add the solution to your bottling bucket and rack the cider on top. This way it mixes as rack.
Using multiple fermenters doesn't increase the flavor in cider or beer it's done to aid clearing and get the beverage off the spent yeast to reduce autolysis which can produce off flavors. While it's not strictly required I do do it for both cider and beer.
I got a reply from the atlaslabels and apparently for a three color crown it would be a minimum of 400,000 caps ordered...which I can't even begin to speculate the price.
However for a single color crown (that is a crown with a single color printed on it?I believe using a colored crown and putting a color on top of that would be best) it is $260 for 500. This isn't bad and I'll probably eventually do it but I doubt I'll do it until next summer at least.
He did point me to 4th & Vine for labels though...he didn't give me a quote on them, so I assume they are ridiculously expensive for an average person to have created.
Thanks for all the help, I just have to wait...and I'm pretty sure I know how to do everything now
One last question...probably not, but sorry for all the questions
As an example, the oak things are supposed to be in contact for 2-3 months. Is it ok to leave the cider in the secondary fermenter for that long....or even longer? It's my understanding that as long as there isn't air in the containers, nothing bad will really happen even for extended periods of time. Well the autolysis but there shouldn't be much yeast in the secondary fermenter right?
Also did you learn all this from trial and error, or can you recommend a good book?see told you it wasn't the last question.
For anyone still following this thread, there is a?I think interesting write up as to why beer is so popular today in place of cider. I was amazed at how popular cider once was.
About aging, yes, as long as there is no oxygen (or light or temperature swings) you can leave the cider in the carboy for months or even years. The flavor will continue to change and develop.
I've been kegging cider for years now and it's essentially the same concept. I fill a keg with cider, purge the air in the headspace with CO2 and set it aside for the following year. I don't add preservatives and it's perfectly drinkable three years later.
Books... hmmm... There really aren't any what I would call great books on cider. "Cider" is a fairly good book. It however spends most of it's time on apple related topics that are more interesting to know rather than all that useful to the average person. I also have a couple of small books about traditional cider making in the UK that I can't think of the names of off hand. The problem with them is they focus on older methods and assume you have acres of trees. Although I have a grinder and press it really doesn't require a book on the subject. When it comes down to it cider is a very simple beverage to make.
I looked up the cider book for you...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...l/-/1580175201
That link you provided is very interesting. At one time I had a long email conversation with a person on the subject of cider history. Looking at the material on that site I can imagine it might have been one of his students.
So?
1) Is the flavor going to get better? How do you mess up adding yeast and apple cider? I had a bottle of real apple cider last night, and drank it all it was delicious and tasted almost good on it's way up
2) My main concern is that it doesn't taste good right now, but I'd really like to have some hard apple cider that...well tastes like apple cider and not like apple wine. Is there a way to preserve the original flavor/sugars from changing and have alcohol added? I know with beer there are enzymes that can prevent sugars from being turned into alcohol, I was thinking if I could do that with the cider and then just add sugar afterwards to ferment it would keep the flavor and still be alcoholic.
3) I have a different type of yeast so maybe I'll try another batch if this ends up not being good, but from the pre taste, I'm pretty disappointed and may have to move into my luck with wine.
2. There is no way of preserving the original flavor and just increasing alcohol content except by taking the juice and adding a shot of vodka to it. It's just like wine in the respect that the final product is only reminiscent of the original fruit.
When making beer, you control the levels of fermentable sugars by controlling the temperature of the mash. With cider nearly all of the sugars are fermentable. There are several methods for creating a sweeter cider.
A) Slow fermentation with frequent racking. This is a very old technique for creating a sweeter cider. What you do is ferment cool (high 50's to mid 60's) so the yeast is working slowly. You then rack frequently, whenever a layer of yeast settles out. This can work but not always and is usually not worth the effort in my opinion.
C) Ferment completely, stabilize, and re-sweeten. This is what I do when I want a sweet cider and what some commercial companies do in a slightly modified process. Basically you let the fermentation go to complete dryness. You mentioned using a hydrometer so it would be at or very near 1.000. You then stabilize with a combination of metabisulfate and sorbate and sweeten with apple juice or apple juice concentrate.
D) Turn it into cider jack. This is illegal in the US because it is a form of distillation (fractional crystallization) but... What you do is freeze the cider in a large mouth container and after a layer of ice forms, remove the ice. This removes the water and concentrates the flavors and alcohol.
3. The yeast probably isn't the issue here. The yeast would be the last thing I changed. I would make sure that you've sanitized everything and switch juice brands. Sanitization would be the number one cause of off flavors. Not all apple juices make a great tasting cider. For example. I would stay away from a juice that is 100% Gravenstein. Those tend to make a cider that tastes mealy. In fact I would stay away from most juices that claim to be 100% of any particular variety of apple. There's no way I can think of to really describe it but with practice you can taste different apple juices and pick out the flavors that will come through in the final cider.
As a final note I would say not to be too quick to dump a cider that you initially think is bad. I would top it off and set it aside in a cool, dark location and give it a few months. If it still doesn't taste agreeable or begins to show other signs of infection I would then dump it.
Originally posted by Hauntmaster
[B]1. Cider does improve with age but I'm a little concerned that your mother would describe the flavor as "throw up" and "bile" like. That is not a typical flavor profile one would expect from a recently fermented cider unless there was a bacterial infection.
Thanks, like I said, my brother and I didn't think it tasted like that and she revised her opinion...maybe she just felt bad though
C) Ferment completely, stabilize, and re-sweeten. This is what I do when I want a sweet cider and what some commercial companies do in a slightly modified process. Basically you let the fermentation go to complete dryness. You mentioned using a hydrometer so it would be at or very near 1.000. You then stabilize with a combination of metabisulfate and sorbate and sweeten with apple juice or apple juice concentrate.
I thought about this, but since juice/concentrate spoils won't it still spoil, even if diluted? Also how would you make sparkling cider with this method? What kind of juice do I do with this, something that has preservatives or not?
3. The yeast probably isn't the issue here. The yeast would be the last thing I changed. I would make sure that you've sanitized everything and switch juice brands. Sanitization would be the number one cause of off flavors. Not all apple juices make a great tasting cider. For example. I would stay away from a juice that is 100% Gravenstein. Those tend to make a cider that tastes mealy. In fact I would stay away from most juices that claim to be 100% of any particular variety of apple. There's no way I can think of to really describe it but with practice you can taste different apple juices and pick out the flavors that will come through in the final cider.
I'm not sure I can find a different type of cider around here, unless I make my own.
As a final note I would say not to be too quick to dump a cider that you initially think is bad. I would top it off and set it aside in a cool, dark location and give it a few months. If it still doesn't taste agreeable or begins to show other signs of infection I would then dump it.
What other signs of infection? Mold?
Originally posted by ast3r3x
I thought about this, but since juice/concentrate spoils won't it still spoil, even if diluted? Also how would you make sparkling cider with this method? What kind of juice do I do with this, something that has preservatives or not? What other signs of infection? Mold?
lol... my junk mail filter started tagging appleinsider notifications as possible spam. Funny.
To answer your questions... No, it shouldn't spoil because metabisulfite, sorbate, alcohol, and the lowered ph all act to preserve the cider. After, if you wanted sparkling cider you would have to force carbonate. To sweeten I would use concentrate rather than juice but it doesn't matter if you use juice that has preservatives or not. Another option I didn't mention is to serve the cider with fresh juice. Simply pour some juice in a glass and top up with cider. I've known some people to do that but I don't particularly like it that way.
Other signs of infection... off colors/odors/flavors, floating masses (after fermentation), films, ropiness/oiliness/thickening, gushing. The most common would be the off odor/flavor. Usually this would be a vinegar flavor and aroma. With this infection the cider is being turned to vinegar by bacteria. It's not something that will hurt you and oddly enough turns the whole batch into something people pay a lot of money for in the health food stores, apple cider vinegar. However, since that isn't your goal it's not something to encourage.
The second most common would be films and ropiness. Films are molds that grow out on the surface, usually white and powdery and ropiness is caused by a bacteria that turns the cider into a gelatinous mess. In all cases of infection the best course of action is to dump the cider, wash everything, and sanitize. When I say everything I mean in addition to all your equipment you'll end up cleaning a lot more of your house than you really wanted. If you're making cider in the kitchen you'll want to disinfect all surfaces, floors, counters, cabinets, sinks, etc. Not a bad idea even if you never have a problem.