To all who are saying this wouldn't be a problem because it won't have a zoom lens, remember that cell phone cameras also don't typically have zoom lenses, and they are banned in many businesses.
Of course, this is a moot point if Apple provides an option to leave out the camera. In that case, this is a great move. Let's just wait and see, since we can't really know what's going to happen from here.
Google Furby and national security and you'll get an idea on what they think about microphones. Where security matters they strip you of everything. Ok I can recount some things, I could draw or write it down but nowhere near the accuracy or speed a microphone or camera allows.
National security agencies aren't the only places going to these extremes either anymore. Intellectual property theft is becoming a very big deal and very big business.
Ironically I've seen a very strict business then send employees home to work with millions in unencrypted IP. If you're going to do security do it across the board
So, as EYE see it there are 3 main arguments against a built in iSight lappy;
1) Security restrictions,
1a) Can't give presentation (essentially related to (1)),
2) Poor optics shouldn't be used on a "professional" lappy,
2a) Poor optics WRT external camera (essentially related to (2)),
3) WE (i. e. Emo Kids) don't want one.
Basically, YOU don't like it, and YOU try to rationalize why it's a bad idea. Each of YOUR rationalizations have quite easily been SHOT DOWN in previous posts (except perhaps for YOUR presentation argument (YOUR presentation isn't portable? YOUR presentation HAS to be given only on a Mac with Mac exclusive SW? YOU aren't sensitive to YOUR client's needs? YOU don't want to compete for 96% of available marketshare? Maybe YOU want to collect welfare?)).
BTW, when's Apple giving the next PE Exam for this "PRO" lappy?
IMHO, as DL would say, "Who gives a rat's ass?"
So MY Emo Kid appeal to Apple is, please, Please, PLEASE put a really, Really, REALLY crappy iSight into the PB lappy!
Then they should have put the camera in the bottom of the iMac case. That would give a great chin view. It would make everyone look like that cartoon mountie Dudley Do-Right. There's a reason why they put it in the top.
I'm not saying it's impossible, just that to do this in a very thin lid would be very expensive, or not very good. That's a tough choice.
Hellooo!?! You're supposed to be intelligent? I didn't write that they should put the camera at the hinge. I wrote that the hinge already represents a departure from the uniformly thin lid you claim Apple absolutely must have. If they could include one thick section at the bottom, why can't they include another at the top? How could a camera at the hinge "overhang the front edge of the lower section" as I wrote?
Google Furby and national security and you'll get an idea on what they think about microphones. Where security matters they strip you of everything. Ok I can recount some things, I could draw or write it down but nowhere near the accuracy or speed a microphone or camera allows.
In which case, you're already screwed anyway. Since all laptops from Apple (and most from other companies) include a microphone, you won't be allowed to bring it in in the first place, so a built-in camera makes not one bit of difference in a top secret, hush-hush, eyes only environment. Camera or no camera, the PB's not getting in. So why not include it?
Hellooo!?! You're supposed to be intelligent? I didn't write that they should put the camera at the hinge. I wrote that the hinge already represents a departure from the uniformly thin lid you claim Apple absolutely must have. If they could include one thick section at the bottom, why can't they include another at the top? How could a camera at the hinge "overhang the front edge of the lower section" as I wrote?
So much for Mel "I am never wrong" Gross.
Smart guy. It's been said numerous times that Apple wants to make these things thinner. From Apple. That leaves no where else to put any thickness in the lids BUT the bottom, where the strength might still be needed.
I suppose you don't think that you are right? If not, then why are you posting?
You don't have to be a wiseass. Most people aren't agreeing with you.
The security issue is bogus, guys. I've seen digital cameras in pens that are really tiny. I doubt any security officer would notice them.
Sure, some places may not allow laptops with cameras in. So what? Apple will offer laptops without cameras too, just as the Treo is available with and without a camera.
The funny thing is, few companies are more concerned about security than Apple Computer - and here they are going to make these things!
Most agencies have a very simple answer, they strip you of anything with a camera. When I've walked on to certain sites I've just handed in my phone and credit cards (giant magnetic field can wipe them). I don't think you appreciate just how massive a loss they could suffer by one photo in some of these instances. Being lazy is to say, oh well they're in everything now so we'll just allow it. It won't happen. If you're in a lab where they are working on something secret it is simple to turn a laptop around, or get access, and you can pass documents in front of a static camera. Anywhere that is seriously security conscious won't allow cameras inside certain zones.
Okay, but I would also assume if a place had massive magnets and all of that sensitive material, they could afford a PowerMac w/o iSight and maybe have a software fire wall that wouldn't let jpegs or pdf's leave the system to the outside.
I personally don't think iSights are going to be built in to everything, but in the iMac the benefits far outweigh the possible loss of business to those companies. Besides what CEO is more paranoid than Jobs and he'll have to build Macs for all of the Apple office workers!!!
In which case, you're already screwed anyway. Since all laptops from Apple (and most from other companies) include a microphone, you won't be allowed to bring it in in the first place, so a built-in camera makes not one bit of difference in a top secret, hush-hush, eyes only environment. Camera or no camera, the PB's not getting in. So why not include it?
I'm just generally opposed to the increasing integration of cameras into everything. More and more I am asked to dump my phone simply because it has a camera built in, that I wouldn't use anyway. I see the reasons behind putting them in to computers for consumers, although again is it really not just adding cost for little value to a lot of consumers? Everything does not need a camera, especially not an iPod.
If Apple made OS X's sound preferences lockable this would help.
Quote:
Originally posted by cubist
The security issue is bogus, guys. I've seen digital cameras in pens that are really tiny. I doubt any security officer would notice them.
This comes down to the argument of well people will develop other better ways to subvert security so why should we bother at all with the basics? They bother because it stops the idiots that would try otherwise and it doesn't make it easy for them. If a professional has really set out to steal your secrets then he will if he gets access to them but why make it easy?
I'd actually be interested to know what security is like on Apple's campus.
Smart guy. It's been said numerous times that Apple wants to make these things thinner. From Apple. That leaves no where else to put any thickness in the lids BUT the bottom, where the strength might still be needed.
Im pretty sure Steve wont make a SteveNote where he has to talk to a person's neck.
The lid wont mind a small bump on the top im sure.
Im pretty sure Steve wont make a SteveNote where he has to talk to a person's neck.
The lid wont mind a small bump on the top im sure.
I doubt if the lid would mind anything. Look, I'm not really against it myself.
It just doesn't seem as though Apple's designs are going in the direction that would allow this. I don't know why some people can get so twisted about it.
It's been said numerous times that Apple wants to make these things thinner. From Apple. That leaves no where else to put any thickness in the lids BUT the bottom, where the strength might still be needed.
Look at the RAZR phone. The microphone end of it is the full thickness of the phone. You're saying Apple couldn't do something similar at the edge of the lid?
Look at the RAZR phone. The microphone end of it is the full thickness of the phone. You're saying Apple couldn't do something similar at the edge of the lid?
No. I'm not saying they can't.
I'm saying that Apple is interested in presenting the highest quality images and video. We know that. Would you agree? It wouldn't be to their benefit if it came out poorly, and the reviews said that the quality stunk.
The problem for Apple here is to try to find a way to fit a very tiny system in the edge of a lid that is most likely going to get thinner in the next model. Also, it's been commented upon by those same analysts that Apple's designs for the screen come to the edge of the lid much more so than anyone else's laptops do, and that it seems to be deliberate. It's true. We can see that from looking at them. They do that with their monitors as well. They are obsessed with thin. Look at what they did to the iMac. To make it LOOK thinner, they destroyed all of that lovely user friendly accessibility.
Look at how narrow the latch is., and then look at Sony's design. Very different.
If Apple wants to change that design, then all bets are off. They might do anything!. But I just don't think that they will.
If they can squeeze something into that space, and remember that the screen ducks behind the bezel around it, it's either going to be expensive, or not very good. Don't forget that camera phones are really bad. The Sony cameras that are very thin are also expensive compared to thicker ones.
So what will Apple do?
Appleinsider said that the ones that just came out would have cameras as well. They didn't.
I think that some think that because they built them into the iMac - good move, by the way, that they will build them into everything.
One of the Mac sites was even saying that they would be in the new PM's. Remember?
When I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think that would be a good idea, I got stoned. Like now.
But this is just a bunch of opinions. No one should get upset about them.
What if the keyboard & trackpad opened away from the screen, and the rest of the computer? Then the "lid" could be as thin as would be needed to support the screen & computer, and incorporate a keyboard. Picture a thinner/smaller iMac with a keyboard hinged at the bottom, closing over the screen.
When I look at an iSight camera, I'd be surprised if the camera in the iMac is as good a product. Even more so, I can't imagine the one in the screen, or hypothetical portable computer/screen, would be either. At least the additional .5" would give them some room. Even a PB with it's current size would have almost no room in the screen.
Please excuse me if the possibility of this concept has already been discussed.
Everybody agrees that decent optics cannot exist in a super-thin housing.
Everybody agrees that Apple doesn't want to use bad optics.
This leaves two ways to go:
- Protrusion on the lid, made as small as possible while trying to preserve decent optics quality. If you look at the megapixel cameraphones, this really doesn't need to be very big. Apple can fit it on the lid easily.
- Detachable iSight. It could have a slot on the chassis for transport, and a combined power/Firewire port on the top for use. No wires, under five seconds to prepare for use or transport.
I don't think that an iSight in the PowerBook would need that much space, it should fit without a bump. Just look at the pictures of the iSight in the new iMac.
I don't think that an iSight in the PowerBook would need that much space, it should fit without a bump. Just look at the pictures of the iSight in the new iMac.
Comments
Of course, this is a moot point if Apple provides an option to leave out the camera. In that case, this is a great move. Let's just wait and see, since we can't really know what's going to happen from here.
Originally posted by belzebuth
come on, and what about the microphone???
Google Furby and national security and you'll get an idea on what they think about microphones. Where security matters they strip you of everything. Ok I can recount some things, I could draw or write it down but nowhere near the accuracy or speed a microphone or camera allows.
National security agencies aren't the only places going to these extremes either anymore. Intellectual property theft is becoming a very big deal and very big business.
Ironically I've seen a very strict business then send employees home to work with millions in unencrypted IP. If you're going to do security do it across the board
First, the obligatory "Apple are you listening?"
So, as EYE see it there are 3 main arguments against a built in iSight lappy;
1) Security restrictions,
1a) Can't give presentation (essentially related to (1)),
2) Poor optics shouldn't be used on a "professional" lappy,
2a) Poor optics WRT external camera (essentially related to (2)),
3) WE (i. e. Emo Kids) don't want one.
Basically, YOU don't like it, and YOU try to rationalize why it's a bad idea. Each of YOUR rationalizations have quite easily been SHOT DOWN in previous posts (except perhaps for YOUR presentation argument (YOUR presentation isn't portable? YOUR presentation HAS to be given only on a Mac with Mac exclusive SW? YOU aren't sensitive to YOUR client's needs? YOU don't want to compete for 96% of available marketshare? Maybe YOU want to collect welfare?)).
BTW, when's Apple giving the next PE Exam for this "PRO" lappy?
IMHO, as DL would say, "Who gives a rat's ass?"
So MY Emo Kid appeal to Apple is, please, Please, PLEASE put a really, Really, REALLY crappy iSight into the PB lappy!
Boy, EYE sure hope Apple was listening!
Originally posted by melgross
Then they should have put the camera in the bottom of the iMac case. That would give a great chin view. It would make everyone look like that cartoon mountie Dudley Do-Right. There's a reason why they put it in the top.
I'm not saying it's impossible, just that to do this in a very thin lid would be very expensive, or not very good. That's a tough choice.
Hellooo!?! You're supposed to be intelligent? I didn't write that they should put the camera at the hinge. I wrote that the hinge already represents a departure from the uniformly thin lid you claim Apple absolutely must have. If they could include one thick section at the bottom, why can't they include another at the top? How could a camera at the hinge "overhang the front edge of the lower section" as I wrote?
So much for Mel "I am never wrong" Gross.
Originally posted by Telomar
Google Furby and national security and you'll get an idea on what they think about microphones. Where security matters they strip you of everything. Ok I can recount some things, I could draw or write it down but nowhere near the accuracy or speed a microphone or camera allows.
In which case, you're already screwed anyway. Since all laptops from Apple (and most from other companies) include a microphone, you won't be allowed to bring it in in the first place, so a built-in camera makes not one bit of difference in a top secret, hush-hush, eyes only environment. Camera or no camera, the PB's not getting in. So why not include it?
Originally posted by Kolchak
Hellooo!?! You're supposed to be intelligent? I didn't write that they should put the camera at the hinge. I wrote that the hinge already represents a departure from the uniformly thin lid you claim Apple absolutely must have. If they could include one thick section at the bottom, why can't they include another at the top? How could a camera at the hinge "overhang the front edge of the lower section" as I wrote?
So much for Mel "I am never wrong" Gross.
Smart guy. It's been said numerous times that Apple wants to make these things thinner. From Apple. That leaves no where else to put any thickness in the lids BUT the bottom, where the strength might still be needed.
I suppose you don't think that you are right? If not, then why are you posting?
You don't have to be a wiseass. Most people aren't agreeing with you.
Sure, some places may not allow laptops with cameras in. So what? Apple will offer laptops without cameras too, just as the Treo is available with and without a camera.
The funny thing is, few companies are more concerned about security than Apple Computer - and here they are going to make these things!
Originally posted by Telomar
Most agencies have a very simple answer, they strip you of anything with a camera. When I've walked on to certain sites I've just handed in my phone and credit cards (giant magnetic field can wipe them). I don't think you appreciate just how massive a loss they could suffer by one photo in some of these instances. Being lazy is to say, oh well they're in everything now so we'll just allow it. It won't happen. If you're in a lab where they are working on something secret it is simple to turn a laptop around, or get access, and you can pass documents in front of a static camera. Anywhere that is seriously security conscious won't allow cameras inside certain zones.
Okay, but I would also assume if a place had massive magnets and all of that sensitive material, they could afford a PowerMac w/o iSight and maybe have a software fire wall that wouldn't let jpegs or pdf's leave the system to the outside.
I personally don't think iSights are going to be built in to everything, but in the iMac the benefits far outweigh the possible loss of business to those companies. Besides what CEO is more paranoid than Jobs and he'll have to build Macs for all of the Apple office workers!!!
Apple is no stranger to being banned in government offices.
Originally posted by Kolchak
In which case, you're already screwed anyway. Since all laptops from Apple (and most from other companies) include a microphone, you won't be allowed to bring it in in the first place, so a built-in camera makes not one bit of difference in a top secret, hush-hush, eyes only environment. Camera or no camera, the PB's not getting in. So why not include it?
I'm just generally opposed to the increasing integration of cameras into everything. More and more I am asked to dump my phone simply because it has a camera built in, that I wouldn't use anyway. I see the reasons behind putting them in to computers for consumers, although again is it really not just adding cost for little value to a lot of consumers? Everything does not need a camera, especially not an iPod.
If Apple made OS X's sound preferences lockable this would help.
Originally posted by cubist
The security issue is bogus, guys. I've seen digital cameras in pens that are really tiny. I doubt any security officer would notice them.
This comes down to the argument of well people will develop other better ways to subvert security so why should we bother at all with the basics? They bother because it stops the idiots that would try otherwise and it doesn't make it easy for them. If a professional has really set out to steal your secrets then he will if he gets access to them but why make it easy?
I'd actually be interested to know what security is like on Apple's campus.
Originally posted by melgross
Smart guy. It's been said numerous times that Apple wants to make these things thinner. From Apple. That leaves no where else to put any thickness in the lids BUT the bottom, where the strength might still be needed.
Im pretty sure Steve wont make a SteveNote where he has to talk to a person's neck.
The lid wont mind a small bump on the top im sure.
Originally posted by T'hain Esh Kelch
Im pretty sure Steve wont make a SteveNote where he has to talk to a person's neck.
The lid wont mind a small bump on the top im sure.
I doubt if the lid would mind anything.
It just doesn't seem as though Apple's designs are going in the direction that would allow this. I don't know why some people can get so twisted about it.
Originally posted by melgross
It's been said numerous times that Apple wants to make these things thinner. From Apple. That leaves no where else to put any thickness in the lids BUT the bottom, where the strength might still be needed.
Look at the RAZR phone. The microphone end of it is the full thickness of the phone. You're saying Apple couldn't do something similar at the edge of the lid?
Originally posted by Kolchak
Look at the RAZR phone. The microphone end of it is the full thickness of the phone. You're saying Apple couldn't do something similar at the edge of the lid?
No. I'm not saying they can't.
I'm saying that Apple is interested in presenting the highest quality images and video. We know that. Would you agree? It wouldn't be to their benefit if it came out poorly, and the reviews said that the quality stunk.
The problem for Apple here is to try to find a way to fit a very tiny system in the edge of a lid that is most likely going to get thinner in the next model. Also, it's been commented upon by those same analysts that Apple's designs for the screen come to the edge of the lid much more so than anyone else's laptops do, and that it seems to be deliberate. It's true. We can see that from looking at them. They do that with their monitors as well. They are obsessed with thin. Look at what they did to the iMac. To make it LOOK thinner, they destroyed all of that lovely user friendly accessibility.
Look at how narrow the latch is., and then look at Sony's design. Very different.
If Apple wants to change that design, then all bets are off. They might do anything!. But I just don't think that they will.
If they can squeeze something into that space, and remember that the screen ducks behind the bezel around it, it's either going to be expensive, or not very good. Don't forget that camera phones are really bad. The Sony cameras that are very thin are also expensive compared to thicker ones.
So what will Apple do?
Appleinsider said that the ones that just came out would have cameras as well. They didn't.
I think that some think that because they built them into the iMac - good move, by the way, that they will build them into everything.
One of the Mac sites was even saying that they would be in the new PM's. Remember?
When I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think that would be a good idea, I got stoned. Like now.
But this is just a bunch of opinions. No one should get upset about them.
Originally posted by melgross
When I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think that would be a good idea, I got stoned. Like now.
Drugs are never a solution.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Drugs are never a solution.
I agree. You should stop using them.
When I look at an iSight camera, I'd be surprised if the camera in the iMac is as good a product. Even more so, I can't imagine the one in the screen, or hypothetical portable computer/screen, would be either. At least the additional .5" would give them some room. Even a PB with it's current size would have almost no room in the screen.
Please excuse me if the possibility of this concept has already been discussed.
Everybody agrees that Apple doesn't want to use bad optics.
This leaves two ways to go:
- Protrusion on the lid, made as small as possible while trying to preserve decent optics quality. If you look at the megapixel cameraphones, this really doesn't need to be very big. Apple can fit it on the lid easily.
- Detachable iSight. It could have a slot on the chassis for transport, and a combined power/Firewire port on the top for use. No wires, under five seconds to prepare for use or transport.
I don't think that an iSight in the PowerBook would need that much space, it should fit without a bump. Just look at the pictures of the iSight in the new iMac.
iMac iSight picture
Originally posted by bka77
Hi,
I don't think that an iSight in the PowerBook would need that much space, it should fit without a bump. Just look at the pictures of the iSight in the new iMac.
iMac iSight picture
And how thick is that module? A half inch? five-eights? More?