Picasa is so much better than iPhoto

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  • Reply 61 of 150
    Quote:

    Originally posted by kim kap sol

    I've come to that conclusion since Picasa can't seem to do RAW and only understands one color profile. This is pretty bad, IMO.



    Picasa is a consumer app, and a free one at that. Professionals use RAW, consumers use cheap digital cameras that shoot in JPEG.



    And the color profile is bogus: that relates to instant messaging photos with Hello, another Google program directly from Picasa, not Picasa itself. Whoever said that Picasa understands just one color profile was talking out of his ass.
  • Reply 62 of 150
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Gene Clean

    Picasa is a consumer app, and a free one at that. Professionals use RAW, consumers use cheap digital cameras that shoot in JPEG.



    And the color profile is bogus: that relates to instant messaging photos with Hello, another Google program directly from Picasa, not Picasa itself. Whoever said that Picasa understands just one color profile was talking out of his ass.




    I'm a consumer and I use RAW. Uh oh!
  • Reply 63 of 150
    Quote:

    Originally posted by kim kap sol

    I'm a consumer and I use RAW. Uh oh!



    (Un)fortunately for you, Picasa does support RAW.



    Uh oh!
  • Reply 64 of 150
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pyr3

    *snip snip*



    Ok, I'm not going to respond to all of that, but it all comes down to this.



    Your main complaint is the presence of one omniscient library.



    This is because you want your pictures sorted by work/personal/web/etc. This is incredibly easy to do, right now, in iPhoto. You can
    • on importing, always drag into the designated Album, or

    • more flexibly, you can create smart albums and tag your pictures

    This gives you all the organization you want, very simply and easily. Of course, there's still a big library. Ignore it. Again, something really easy to do.



    I'm not complaining about your system because it's easy to use it stupidly. I'm calling it out because it adds bloat, adds no functional value, and is only useful for those with extreme obsessive compulsive disorder.



    You're right that iPhoto needs to allow options for password-protecting certain pictures, but your solution doesn't directly address this.
  • Reply 65 of 150
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Gene Clean

    (Un)fortunately for you, Picasa does support RAW.



    Uh oh!




    But, but, I thought this was a consumer app!



    Thanks...I guess there's been much misinformation in this thread. I'll give the latest version a try.



    Do remember though, Gene, that Picasa is enjoying a steady stream of upgrades while iPhoto only gets an update a year. You're comparing a version that's been out since October with a version that's been out since January. This is fine, I suppose but you can't expect a company that has as many apps as Apple to upgrade at the same speed the Picasa team upgrades its app. Come January 2006, I'm sure iPhoto will do everything Picasa does and more.
  • Reply 66 of 150
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Alright, I'm not getting the complaints about lack of backing up from *WITHIN* iPhoto. Sorry, I just don't get that... do you expect to be able to back up your files from within Word?



    What I see happening is people trying to back up by dragging their folder to another hard drive, or an optical disk, and successfully backing them up.



    But then folks are talking about how when they restore, they end up with many copies of the images, at different editing stages... I don't see how that's possible, unless you're dragging the backed up folder onto iPhoto. That triggers an import of whatever is in the folder, and since iPhoto does indeed store multiple copies, you get multiple copies.



    Hint: don't reimport the entire library, just quit iPhoto and restore the files in place by replacing ~/Pictures/iPhoto Library/. Assuming that you're working with the same iPhoto version, it should do exactly as you would expect, including retaining metadata.



    Import != restore.



    If what you're wanting to do instead is archive the *last* version of each edited photo, such that you have one copy of each, and can reimport them later, then that's something different than simply backing up. Look to Export in the File menu to do that. You do lose metadata, which bites, but wait... doesn't iPhoto have the ability to export the metadata tabs for selected files? I could swear I've used that in the past.



    And here we see the problem with having 'back up' inside iPhoto - some people want to archive all intermediate steps, a true backing up of the workflow and a snapshot of the disk space, while others want to just keep final versions around. The former is most easily doable with the Finder, while the latter needs some work.



    Perhaps if there were some consensus on what y'all mean by 'backing up'...
  • Reply 67 of 150
    Quote:

    Originally posted by kim kap sol

    [B]But, but, I thought this was a consumer app!



    Of course it's a consumer level app. First of all, it costs $0. Show me a pro app that costs $0 (developed by a company, responsible to its shareholders) and I'll cede this point to you.



    Adobe Photoshop Elements is a consumer app too, and it too, has support for RAW. But only as an afterthought, or a somewhat 'power-user' feature. It's not its main feature. As it shouldn't be.



    Quote:

    Thanks...I guess there's been much misinformation in this thread. I'll give the latest version a try.



    Well if people keep judging things they've never used (not directed at you) with things like "I have a PC friend.. he told me 29834 years ago he saw a green tint on a photo he had in Picasa.. so yeah, Picasa.. doesn't support more than one color profile" - of course there's going to be a lot of misinformation.



    Though I can add one more thing where Picasa excels and iPhoto is a dog: speed. Picasa is a fast beast even with 20,000 photos whereas iPhoto, chokes, so to speak.



    Give it a try though - it's pretty good no matter what people say.
  • Reply 68 of 150
    pyr3pyr3 Posts: 946member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    Alright, I'm not getting the complaints about lack of backing up from *WITHIN* iPhoto. Sorry, I just don't get that... do you expect to be able to back up your files from within Word?



    Horrible example. Word isn't an interface for you to view/organize all of your word processing documents. Word is just an editor. iPhoto is supposed to be a way for you to store/organize/touch up your photos. iPhoto is supposed to be an interface to your photos and you shouldn't worry about the stuff in the iPhoto library folder. iPhoto stores all of your photos in a folder that is organized in a way that's not supposed to be 'user readable' so to speak. The entire purpose of iPhoto is to keep your photos in a place and have an interface to them so that users don't have to worry about the back-end of things.



    Yea, power users can just drag the folder to back it up, but how about less savvy users? Having a backup inside of iPhoto will provide a common interface for people to use. Hell, they could make it all AppleScriptable so that rather than using the built-in backup in iPhoto you can do all kinds of crazy stuff with the backup interface.



    But the other problem arises when the iPhoto library directory is larger than a DVD or CD. What if it's larger than 700MB and the user only has a CD burner? What if it's larger than 4489MB and the user only has a single-layer DVD burner?



    Picasa has a backup feature. Not only that, it keeps track of what photos have already been burned to a backup disc. So you could create multiple-disc backups. This to me is a useful feature. Even if the meta-data isn't saved at least you have the files backed up somewhere in case of a hard drive failure, laptop theft, etc. I think that the multiple -disc backup is the most solid feature that a built-in iPhoto backup util would have going for it. Another solid feature would be the ability to sync the iPhoto library with another location, perhaps an external drive / network share.



    Quote:

    If what you're wanting to do instead is archive the *last* version of each edited photo, such that you have one copy of each, and can reimport them later, then that's something different than simply backing up. Look to Export in the File menu to do that. You do lose metadata, which bites, but wait... doesn't iPhoto have the ability to export the metadata tabs for selected files? I could swear I've used that in the past.



    And here we see the problem with having 'back up' inside iPhoto - some people want to archive all intermediate steps, a true backing up of the workflow and a snapshot of the disk space, while others want to just keep final versions around. The former is most easily doable with the Finder, while the latter needs some work.



    Perhaps if there were some consensus on what y'all mean by 'backing up'...




    There need not be a consensus. There could be a backup feature that allows the user to select the type of backup that they want.



    "Full backup"

    "Backup of Final Revisions"

    etc
  • Reply 69 of 150
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by pyr3 Horrible example. Word isn't an interface for you to view/organize all of your word processing documents. Word is just an editor. iPhoto is supposed to be a way for you to store/organize/touch up your photos. iPhoto is supposed to be an interface to your photos and you shouldn't worry about the stuff in the iPhoto library folder. iPhoto stores all of your photos in a folder that is organized in a way that's not supposed to be 'user readable' so to speak. The entire purpose of iPhoto is to keep your photos in a place and have an interface to them so that users don't have to worry about the back-end of things.



    Agreed, but if you're *only* doing an en masse back up, you *DON'T* care where files are stored, do you? When you're backing up your mail, for example, you don't care about which mail message is stored where, you just want all your mail backed up. I don't see a Backup feature *inside* Mail, nor would I expect to.



    I think this way leads to the Kitchen Sink Mentality... and Windows UI design.



    This is what I meant by lack of solid definitions for what people meant by backing up... to me, and to most people, backing up is a mirroring of the current state of *everything*.



    What I hear most people saying is "I want to move certain pictures aside for a while, but pull them back in later with preserved metadata". The term most often used for that is Archiving.



    Quote:

    Yea, power users can just drag the folder to back it up, but how about less savvy users? Having a backup inside of iPhoto will provide a common interface for people to use. Hell, they could make it all AppleScriptable so that rather than using the built-in backup in iPhoto you can do all kinds of crazy stuff with the backup interface.



    Again, clashing terminology. There's no reason to have a Backup feature in iPhoto, one in iTunes, one in iMovie, one in iDVD... when you can have a dedicated tool that only needs to know only a little bit about the file structure of each app. Think plugins into a backup tool.



    Archiving is another issue, and one that I agree needs to be addressed, and *has* to be done from within iPhoto.



    Quote:

    But the other problem arises when the iPhoto library directory is larger than a DVD or CD. What if it's larger than 700MB and the user only has a CD burner? What if it's larger than 4489MB and the user only has a single-layer DVD burner?



    Again, a backup tool will have that capability built-in. No need to reinvent the wheel when existing solutions are out there.



    Quote:

    Picasa has a backup feature. Not only that, it keeps track of what photos have already been burned to a backup disc. So you could create multiple-disc backups. This to me is a useful feature.



    Ah, see, that's archiving. And it *is* a useful feature.



    Quote:

    Even if the meta-data isn't saved at least you have the files backed up somewhere in case of a hard drive failure, laptop theft, etc.



    Er, if you're not concerned about metadata, here's an iPhoto route to the same thing, more or less:



    Select pictures.

    Export pictures to disc.

    Tag pictures as exported.



    Not as smooth, definitely, but I think it provides the backbone for the same functionality. Perhaps a quick Applescript over the top?



    Quote:

    I think that the multiple -disc backup is the most solid feature that a built-in iPhoto backup util would have going for it. Another solid feature would be the ability to sync the iPhoto library with another location, perhaps an external drive / network share.



    Expect to see that in iLife '06, with the current push for syncing through .Mac. Also expect to see it remain a .Mac only feature, darn it.



    Quote:

    There need not be a consensus. There could be a backup feature that allows the user to select the type of backup that they want.



    "Full backup"

    "Backup of Final Revisions"

    etc



    Aaaaaaaand that would be consensus of terminology of what backing up means in various contexts. I wasn't saying "THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE TYPE OF BACKUP" but that in *THIS* thread, people were using the term for *many* styles of backing up, and that there needed to be a consensus on what the hell people meant by the various styles, and a better lexicon of phrasing. So we could discuss the actual issues instead of arguing about what 'backing up' meant.



    How about we agree on the following:



    Backing up: en masse, all files, all revisions, perfect snapshot of the entire archive, all edit chains, etc. Restoring from a back-up involves wholesale replacing of the current iPhoto library. All metadata preserved.



    Archiving: Specific photos, would be 'forgotten' from current library, you want to be able to re-*integrate* them into the existing library as needed. Metadata preserved, edit-chain optional.



    Exporting: Specific photos, just makes a copy of the current state of edits, does not alter current library, all metadata lost.



    Then the discussion can be focussed on the need for, and requirements of, Archiving, since Exporting is currently handled inside iPhoto, and Backups are best handled by a dedicated tool outside the organization framework.



    Good enough?
  • Reply 70 of 150
    Archiving means creating a compressed archive in case you want to transfer those images in bulk to somebody or somewhere.



    That's in no way similar to back-up. And Picasa doesn't follow Windows UI at all - as does no Google application.
  • Reply 71 of 150
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Archiving is used for that, but if you think about it, it's the same situation... (and archiving using tar, for instance, involves no compression in the default case).



    You're removing an item (photo or file, makes no difference) from the organizational tool at hand (iPhoto, Finder or shell), putting it somewhere safe (another volume or compression file) so that you can retrieve it later intact.



    Which is why it's used for both situations. It's all about what context you're in. It has an old and established definition going back far pre-computers. Paper filings were frequently archived by businesses when they were no longer needed for fast access. Old filing cabinets would be hauled off to a warehouse for archiving. It's a removal from the current collection, put into a safe place for later retrieval only when needed.



    And you're right, it's *NOT* backing up, which was my entire point. 'Back up' was being used in an erroneous and confusing way.



    I never said Picasa uses the Windows UI, only that tossing every possible idea into an app leads to the same mess that Windows apps tend to have: featureitis. Most Linux apps have the same problem, and some Mac apps do too, but we tend to have cleaner apps in general. In any case, dumping a thousand small tasks into one app is a bad idea. Google has created an Archiving system within Picasa, and I'm advocating for the same thing in iPhoto.



    Backing up is best left to a backup tool, because internals of the application aren't necessary to perform it.



    Archiving is best done within the tool, since it requires knowing more information about how the internals of the app work.



    I just wanted to get the terminology straight.
  • Reply 72 of 150
    Quote:

    Originally posted by kim kap sol

    But, but, I thought this was a consumer app!



    Thanks...I guess there's been much misinformation in this thread. I'll give the latest version a try.



    Do remember though, Gene, that Picasa is enjoying a steady stream of upgrades while iPhoto only gets an update a year. You're comparing a version that's been out since October with a version that's been out since January. This is fine, I suppose but you can't expect a company that has as many apps as Apple to upgrade at the same speed the Picasa team upgrades its app. Come January 2006, I'm sure iPhoto will do everything Picasa does and more.




    Kim,



    I have tried to ignore your obvious emotional attachment to iPhoto to see if you would make any observations that were not Apple-centric (it's OK I understand). The fact of the matter is if iPhoto is only updated every year or so thats a check in the negative catagory for iPhoto.



    If we're making comparisons between the two Apps lets try and forget about the fact that Apple didnt create it as unfortunate as this might be. I am looking at the overall user experience that I had with the two applications and trying to point out the pros and cons. So far as I can tell there isnt anything that iPhoto does that Picasa cannot. Additionally Picasa (like many in this thread have verified) seems to have a much easier interface for all intents and purposes.



    Can someone in this place tell me with some degree of certainty how you back-up iPhoto's library to share it with other machines (PC's included)?
  • Reply 73 of 150
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kickaha

    I never said Picasa uses the Windows UI, only that tossing every possible idea into an app leads to the same mess that Windows apps tend to have: featureitis. Most Linux apps have the same problem, and some Mac apps do too, but we tend to have cleaner apps in general. In any case, dumping a thousand small tasks into one app is a bad idea. Google has created an Archiving system within Picasa, and I'm advocating for the same thing in iPhoto.

    I just wanted to get the terminology straight. [/B]



    I'd just like to address the "featureitis" comment because if this were the case with Picasa (and I think I know where you're coming from) then this would make Picasa function on a slow bulky level. In fact it's still amazing to me how fast Picasa runs with a ton of photos. in terms of speed there is no comparison what so ever between the two applications. Apple take notes on this one.
  • Reply 74 of 150
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Playmaker

    I'd just like to address the "featureitis" comment because if this were the case with Picasa (and I think I know where you're coming from) then this would make Picasa function on a slow bulky level. In fact it's still amazing to me how fast Picasa runs with a ton of photos. in terms of speed there is no comparison what so ever between the two applications. Apple take notes on this one.



    No, feature bloat doesn't have to impact speed at all, but it makes the interface difficult to navigate, and worse, it makes the code much more fragile and less able to be nimbly adapted. :/



    iPhoto is no speed demon, and I don't find it hard to believe that Picasa is snappier.
  • Reply 75 of 150
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Playmaker

    Can someone in this place tell me with some degree of certainty how you back-up iPhoto's library to share it with other machines (PC's included)?



    Export it.
  • Reply 76 of 150
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Playmaker

    Kim,



    I have tried to ignore your obvious emotional attachment to iPhoto to see if you would make any observations that were not Apple-centric (it's OK I understand). The fact of the matter is if iPhoto is only updated every year or so thats a check in the negative catagory for iPhoto.




    It's not so much that I have an emotional attachment to iPhoto than the fact that I hadn't tried Picasa in a year. I'm actually surprised how fast it progressed because Picasa surely wasn't the way it is today this time last year. I tried to come to conclusion based on what was said in this thread but there was so much misinformation that the real info only came out after my, admittedly, blunt comments.



    I suppose it will be fair game to compare iPhoto 2006 to whatever Picasa has out in January or risk being labeled a Picasa-lover? And if it's anything like Aperture, Picasa will have a lot of catching up to do.
  • Reply 77 of 150
    Kickaha,



    I'm one who posted my issues with restoring a backup. At the moment I'm nervous about trying to get iPhoto back to where I think it should be, and I'd be grateful for your advice before I screw it up any more.



    Quick recap: 3 months ago I copied the entire iPhoto folder to an external harddrive as a backup. Main HD failed, replaced. I was sure I copied the folder back, but ended up with multiple photo copies, and whilst iPhoto had the list of albums I'd created over the last few years, no photos were actually in them. I'm sure I copied the folder back (rather than dragged the folder over the iPhoto icon), otherwise how would iPhoto know about my albums?



    Since then I've added new pictures to iPhoto, and created a new copy of the iPhoto folder on the external drive.



    So I'm in the situation of having iPhoto with around 4000 pictures, of which about half are duplicates.



    To get it clean do you recommend:



    remove the current iPhoto folder.

    copy the 3 month old untouched iPhoto backup folder back to the 'live' directory.

    copy from the recent iPhoto folder copy only the subfolders that were created since the 3 month old one, into the live iphoto folder.



    Will it cause a problem to iPhoto since I won't be copying over the non photo files held at the top level of iPhoto?



    Thanks for any comments.



    David



    PS I understand what you mean about keeping a backup program separate from an archiving routine. I would suggest, though, that something like iPhoto where the source is totally personal (i.e. in iTunes in theory the source should only be CDs you own and online purchases and so a data loss should be replaceable) a backup routine is fundamental to the application. But whether it is as a general program that all iLife apps access, or built in, is moot.
  • Reply 78 of 150
    There are rumors on the net that Google has bought startup company Riya

    If Riya's promise holds true, this would really, really improve the usability of meta-data in consumer-picture software.
  • Reply 79 of 150
    Haven't tried out picasa, so not gonna comment on that, but I think some of you guys are still stuck in windows way of thinking, that filename and folder are the only info to index files. When I first started using mac this was the biggest revelation for me. That there were a program for indexing music, a program for indexing pictures and so on, specified programs that understand the special needs of certain types of files. I wasn't limited any longer to creating directories to index my stuff, I don't have to manually move stuff from directory to directory to keep my archive in order. Just make simple rules (Smart folders/playlists) and things are automatically kept in order. OSX kindly hides all the underlying structures and and let's me work with metadata. That said I really hope Apple changes iPhoto to meta data editing in future.

    Second thing is securing, if there is something I don't want to share with world it's in my FileVault protected home directory. Idea for password protected folders is sort of backwards thinking, you shouldn't be securing things that you don't want to share but sharing only the things you want. This is some thing Apple needs to sort out in future, how to wisely share things with others based on some simple rules, like share these pictures based on this rule to all users on this computer/all computers in LAN and so on. Apple hasn't yet figured out all the possibilities of metadata ideology, but at least they are one giant step ahead of Windows on this.
  • Reply 80 of 150
    Quote:

    Originally posted by dutch pear

    There are rumors on the net that Google has bought startup company Riya

    If Riya's promise holds true, this would really, really improve the usability of meta-data in consumer-picture software.




    Interesting technology...I'm sure that eventually there will be some complex algorithms that will automatically tag metadata onto a photo by analyzing it's content. I guess Riya can figure out *who* is on the photo (although I'd like to see the robustness of this...ie what happens when someone makes a silly face, or the picture is a little fuzzy, or the face is half covered, etc.)
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