aegisdesign: About the speed issue. Look at what mike12309 wrote:
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when you factor in the fact that people are buying crappy computers (aka dells) running windows, which they want to replace in about a year out of either desire (its slow)
Either mike meant that Dell computers are slow compared to Apple PPC (I hope you don´t mean that ) or compared to previous Dells and since we as mac users didn´t have the same problem we didn´t have to upgrade as often. I was simply just playing along with that last assumption.
For the two other points. I don´t really buy into the "we are intellectual superiour" stuff. Yes new users can screw up things, but equally on both sides.
And yes I supported Windows (and mac) users as well. My experience: WIndows users do what you tell them to. They don´t expect anything to be intuitive so give them a recipe and they will follow it to the letter. Mac users know they have a more intuitive machine and suddenly they just "feel" they get it and screw things up. Thats just my experience...
aegisdesign: About the speed issue. Look at what mike12309 wrote:
Either mike meant that Dell computers are slow compared to Apple PPC (I hope you don´t mean that ) or compared to previous Dells and since we as mac users didn´t have the same problem we didn´t have to upgrade as often. I was simply just playing along with that last assumption.
For the two other points. I don´t really buy into the "we are intellectual superiour" stuff. Yes new users can screw up things, but equally on both sides.
And yes I supported Windows (and mac) users as well. My experience: WIndows users do what you tell them to. They don´t expect anything to be intuitive so give them a recipe and they will follow it to the letter. Mac users know they have a more intuitive machine and suddenly they just "feel" they get it and screw things up. Thats just my experience...
1. i was referring to the cheap dells compared to anything else. i have a custom built gaming PC (Athlon 4400, 2GB Ram etc) its going to last more than a year. A P4 Celeron with 256 Ram and a Cavier drive isnt lasting more than 2 years, and nobody would want it after a year -- or at all.
Furthermore yes they do what they tell them -- thats if they have someone to tell them. Ive helped many people in my various tech jobs and otherwise, the thing i always find are entire families that just dont know about the preventative measures they should be taking. Even the more tech savvy individuals i find dont know about firefox, or about good firewall software or about adaware etc. If they do, great... but its rare. I agree most people do what they are told, but i also think their arnt enough truly knowledgeable people telling them. Further if they arnt reminded, they forget and frankly dont update or run anti-spyware.
Novice users have no idea why there computer has got slower than it was when they bought it or why it's slow in the first place when the salesman said it had a 2.8Ghz processor with Intel HT technology, whatever that is. I've even heard it described as making your computer twice as fast!
Your experience differs from mine. I find Windows users fiddle with everything, install stuff without thinking and rarely update their software. Then again I know Mac users who still run Virex on OS9 like they think a 5 year old virus data file has any value.
But, the difference is, novice Windows users who don't look after their computers have a lot to lose - it's too easy to infect their computers and they've a much more fragile OS with updates and drivers coming from everywhere. It's no wonder their barely adequate 256MB Celerons with integrated graphics get slower and slower in the space of a year. And why they're so impressed when a 512MB Celeron a year later seems more snappy.
Intel knows this, that's why they changed their naming scheme from reflecting how fast the CPU was, which hasn't really changed in the last 3 years, to being some arcane numbering scheme that nobody has any chance to work out. Is a Pentium 535 better than a Celeron 640? (ok I made those up, but I've no idea how their numbering scheme works now)
1. i was referring to the cheap dells compared to anything else. i have a custom built gaming PC (Athlon 4400, 2GB Ram etc) its going to last more than a year. A P4 Celeron with 256 Ram and a Cavier drive isnt lasting more than 2 years, and nobody would want it after a year -- or at all.
So according to that logic people would only buy one Dell. Then I don´t understand your original point about the same people buying more Dells because of speed issues. You are not making sense.
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Originally posted by mike12309
Furthermore yes they do what they tell them -- thats if they have someone to tell them. Ive helped many people in my various tech jobs and otherwise, the thing i always find are entire families that just dont know about the preventative measures they should be taking. Even the more tech savvy individuals i find dont know about firefox, or about good firewall software or about adaware etc. If they do, great... but its rare. I agree most people do what they are told, but i also think their arnt enough truly knowledgeable people telling them.
Exactly what Apple users are doing as well.
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Originally posted by mike12309
Further if they arnt reminded, they forget and frankly dont update or run anti-spyware.
Are you going to tell me that Dell owners, who go and buy a new Dell because their old Dell got infected by vira is going to be a significant portion of their customers.
BULL...Apple and Dell serve 2 differant markets, like Ford and Lexus.
...
By the way: Apple has a much smaller share of the PC market if you look at...humm...i dunno, real, meaningfull numbers, like...hmmmmm....unit sales!
DELL'S business is SERIOUSLY fucked. They have no retail presence, and only about 10-15% of their overall sales go to consumers. Apple will be competing more with HP.
Furthermore, Dell has trapped itself into a comodoty product - the cheap PC. Their margins are just going to keep falling, growth in the business p.c. market is expected to be 5-6% over the next few years. Load their customer support and reliability problems on top of that and it isn't a pretty picture for them. Intel needs a company that will innovate and use it's latest technology - that's Apple.
So according to that logic people would only buy one Dell. Then I don´t understand your original point about the same people buying more Dells because of speed issues. You are not making sense.
Buy one dell. The computer [Insert previously mentioned typical Dell problems]. The user is confused/frustrated/forced between bringing to a professional or the idea of getting a "blazing fast new" computer. User either A) Buys new machine brings somewhere to be cleaned C) Gets repaired D) Coutinues using and constantly gripes their computer sucks.
Those who choose option A make my comments make sense.
Typical response i heard to a hard drive failure with a dell and my sales pitch on repair or buying a mac: "Thats okay i was just going to go get a new dell" or "thats okay i already ordered a new computer from dell"
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Are you going to tell me that Dell owners, who go and buy a new Dell because their old Dell got infected by vira is going to be a significant portion of their customers.
Depends on the user and depends on the level of infection.
I can tell you what i know, and that is that users DO. its more common when they have "minor" hardware failure (like a Harddrive or a CD-ROM) for them to see the computer as simple "broken", rather than seeing it as needing a new part X.
As far as customers with fucked up dells going back to dell -- yeah im as confused as you by this. What can i say, consumers are pretty dense when it comes to technology. VHS beat Beta. Windows beat MAC OS, Amiga Etc... People are comfortable with Windows -- and people are confortable with dell. That and dell still has a reputation for Quality, though thats fading fast. Most of all though, they are cheap. people love to go with the cheaper solution.
By the way: Apple has a much smaller share of the PC market if you look at...humm...i dunno, real, meaningfull numbers, like...hmmmmm....unit sales!
Meaningful numbers for whom?
What matters in stock valuation is percieved value, be it some sort of gastric instinct or the best estimation as to the future of the company in terms of how much money it will get them. Dell is definitely the top PC name by unit sales, but there is no guarantee that they will remain so, though I don't think Apple is necessarily poised to take their place. Dell's market is cutthroat with very narrow margins, with diminishing quality of support where Apple seems to have managed to avoid that.
Like I said before, I thought the coomercial was awesome. I see nothing wrong with it, yes they are bashing PC makers but thats what big corparations do. All the time I get bashed by Microsoft guys for using a mac. This commercial is an opertunity for us to shine and bash on the microsoft guys.
I'm not aware of one microsoft ad that ever bashed Apple. Are you aware of one?. Microsoft doesn't waste time with ads bashing the competition, they come out with a product and persuade/intimidate the marketplace into supporting. I've watched many Dell ads and they never bash apple and yet somehow, they are doing ok. Like one poster said, apple can make a case for it's superior operating system without bashing the competition. it sounds childish.
I'm not aware of one microsoft ad that ever bashed Apple. Are you aware of one?. Microsoft doesn't waste time with ads bashing the competition, they come out with a product and persuade/intimidate the marketplace into supporting. I've watched many Dell ads and they never bash apple and yet somehow, they are doing ok. Like one poster said, apple can make a case for it's superior operating system without bashing the competition. it sounds childish.
um no, microsoft never bother because apple isnt a threat. Microsoft are a monopoly. There was never any competition. no competition = no one to bash. Furthermore by saying Apple in a commcerial not only would microsoft give them free ad time but it would make them out to be an alternative to microsoft and as a threat. Many people arnt even aware (as stupid as this sounds) that Apple makes computers. I cant tell you how many times ive heard people in an Apple store say, "hey is this different from windows" or "when did apple start making computers?".
As far as dell, who is dell gonna bash? HP? they use all the same parts as HP -- what do they bash them on? Dell is a parts assembler... who uses the same parts as HP, not much to bash them on there. Theya arnt going to bash apple because once again, apple is not a threat. Ive seen linux manufacturors bash windows before... in fact about all they do in preformance comparisons. But linux isnt mainstream enough for commercials (besides who would run them etc...)
I believe if you have a superior product you should make it known, however a more tasteful commercial could be made in my opinion. This one is kindda insulting to PC users, me included... my custom PC does a lot of non-dull stuff. It would be nice to actually showoff the advantages and then say "intel inside, but the rest is only found in a Mac" or "Intel processor + Apple inspiration.", "not your typical beiege box." -- or something.
Novice users have no idea why there computer has got slower than it was when they bought it or why it's slow in the first place when the salesman said it had a 2.8Ghz processor with Intel HT technology, whatever that is. I've even heard it described as making your computer twice as fast!
At Macworld I overhead some people discussing Hyper Threading and wondering if that was the "dual" nature of the Core Duo processors. I set them straight.
I'm generally surprised at how popular HT is though. I don't see it as much of an advantage but rather a hack to help OSes/Apps that are poorly threaded or have poor thread management. Granted, if someone can show me some cases where HT really improves performance I might think differently.
um no, microsoft never bother because apple isnt a threat. Microsoft are a monopoly. There was never any competition. no competition = no one to bash. Furthermore by saying Apple in a commcerial not only would microsoft give them free ad time but it would make them out to be an alternative to microsoft and as a threat. Many people arnt even aware (as stupid as this sounds) that Apple makes computers. I cant tell you how many times ive heard people in an Apple store say, "hey is this different from windows" or "when did apple start making computers?".
As far as dell, who is dell gonna bash? HP? they use all the same parts as HP -- what do they bash them on? Dell is a parts assembler... who uses the same parts as HP, not much to bash them on there. Theya arnt going to bash apple because once again, apple is not a threat. Ive seen linux manufacturors bash windows before... in fact about all they do in preformance comparisons. But linux isnt mainstream enough for commercials (besides who would run them etc...)
I believe if you have a superior product you should make it known, however a more tasteful commercial could be made in my opinion. This one is kindda insulting to PC users, me included... my custom PC does a lot of non-dull stuff. It would be nice to actually showoff the advantages and then say "intel inside, but the rest is only found in a Mac" or "Intel processor + Apple inspiration.", "not your typical beiege box." -- or something.
A couple of counterpoints.
1. Microsoft was not always a monopoly. I didn't ask if you saw microsoft bash apple yesterday or even last year. I asked if you ever saw them bash a competitor!!! (reading is fundamental).
2. So Dell, HP, IBM (before they sold to levono) all make crappy computers?.. According to this forum, dells puts crappy parts into it's machine so all these computer manufactures must make crappy computers.. wow.. so the company that sells apple their hard drive must have only apple as a customer cause all other computer makers that dell could possibly compare themselves to use the same crappy parts. I have to check but i am sure that the parts found in apple computers are found in Windows based computers from Dell, HP, etc.
3. Apple isn't a threat to dell?.. that must be news to the apple faithfull who continually predict the demise of Dell (just as often as they predict the demise of microsoft).
apparently (and you must not have gotten the memo), dell, i mean, dull has crappy computers and a crappy business plan and they know that apple will crush them. Perhaps the apple faithfull know that apple is dell competitor but Dell, a guy who built a billion dollar business (i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say none of us is head of a multi-billion dollar computer company and also none of us started from scratch to build said company) somehow has lost his acute business acumen and suddenly does not recognize his competitors?. Yeah, that sounds likely.
About the only thing i agree with you is that the apple ad could have been more tastefull.
I would like to remind all the apple faitfull that like to gleefully point out how crappy dell is and how high quality apple is.. one word. Betamax.
At Macworld I overhead some people discussing Hyper Threading and wondering if that was the "dual" nature of the Core Duo processors. I set them straight.
I'm generally surprised at how popular HT is though. I don't see it as much of an advantage but rather a hack to help OSes/Apps that are poorly threaded or have poor thread management. Granted, if someone can show me some cases where HT really improves performance I might think differently.
And it only helps apps that can use multi-procs, like Photoshop or Cad, dual cores arre better...Thus gamers and many pros have gone to AMD...cheaper dual core goodness and better speed.
Two real cores beats a better multitasking algorithem on one core by the laws of physics.
1. Microsoft was not always a monopoly. I didn't ask if you saw microsoft bash apple yesterday or even last year. I asked if you ever saw them bash a competitor!!! (reading is fundamental).
Does driving companies out of business count as bashing? by the time microsoft was big enough and had enough money to run commercials, they were a monopoly. I dont think when they were competeing with commodore they could afford it.
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2. So Dell, HP, IBM (before they sold to levono) all make crappy computers?.. According to this forum, dells puts crappy parts into it's machine so all these computer manufactures must make crappy computers.. wow.. so the company that sells apple their hard drive must have only apple as a customer cause all other computer makers that dell could possibly compare themselves to use the same crappy parts. I have to check but i am sure that the parts found in apple computers are found in Windows based computers from Dell, HP, etc.
Yes, all hardware you buy from Dell, Hp etc for $600 is junk. In order to get a decent product, you have to pay for it. If you do pay for it, the product is decent (regardless of brand). its called "consumer level" because its crap. Apple chooses to stay out of consumer level computers on many fronts. Typically going high end consumer, prosumer, enthusiast and professional. A high end dell, an aleinware or a custom built machine are fine... however typically (90%) of the computers i see made by dell are the sub-$1000 sub-bar junk. Therefore, i refer to dell as a shitty parts assembler. Im the least apple bias person here, so id back off from the generalization (types this from his athlon 4400).
An example of my point:
Dell contracts for Used and Refurb WD Cavier as their staple HDD on a majority of their machines. The cavier is not only used and refurb but even new would only have a 1yr manufacturor warranty.
Apple buys a lot of Seagate, Hitachi and a few other drives. Average manufacutor warranty: 3 and 5 years.
An arguement to say that dell doesnt cut costs by buying cheaper parts is an uneducated one.
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3. Apple isn't a threat to dell?.. that must be news to the apple faithfull who continually predict the demise of Dell (just as often as they predict the demise of microsoft).
apparently (and you must not have gotten the memo), dell, i mean, dull has crappy computers and a crappy business plan and they know that apple will crush them. Perhaps the apple faithfull know that apple is dell competitor but Dell, a guy who built a billion dollar business (i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say none of us is head of a multi-billion dollar computer company and also none of us started from scratch to build said company) somehow has lost his acute business acumen and suddenly does not recognize his competitors?. Yeah, that sounds likely.
I stopped reading the rant. ill say this:
Apple = 3-5% market share
HP = about 25%
Dell = 60%
(US Approx.)
Apple is a threat only in that they will innovate and there market share is more devoted. The average person doesnt really care if they have a dell or another brand, they just want a computer. Dell realizes as people switch to Apple, they rarely switch back-- so i can see where they might be worried about permanent market lose. With this said, by bashing apple, you would only draw more attention to Apple. If i was dell i would try to maginalize Apple as much as possible. Furthermore they are after different markets -- Apple doesnt have a competeing laptop to Dell's $600 one. Dell doesnt really make their money in high end except for business contracts, so why pick a fight with apple which competes for a different market segment?
Besides why piss off your customers who like apple because of the ipod.
Their business is as of the walmart of personal computers, and Apple will probably never take that away.
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About the only thing i agree with you is that the apple ad could have been more tastefull.
I would like to remind all the apple faitfull that like to gleefully point out how crappy dell is and how high quality apple is.. one word. Betamax.
I like dissenting opinions, mainly because this site is awfully bias (not that i mind)-- but your rants are VERY annoying.
ill give you one line in response:
You get what you pay for.
Pay for a $500 computer. Get $500 worth of computer. Its not about dell or anything. If i wanted to say apple was better, id point to the software. Hardware is mostly the same. The thing is dell sells a whole lot of $500 boxes. and Apple sells a whole lot of $1500 boxes.
Does driving companies out of business count as bashing? by the time microsoft was big enough and had enough money to run commercials, they were a monopoly. I dont think when they were competeing with commodore they could afford it.
Yes, all hardware you buy from Dell, Hp etc for $600 is junk. In order to get a decent product, you have to pay for it. If you do pay for it, the product is decent (regardless of brand). its called "consumer level" because its crap. Apple chooses to stay out of consumer level computers on many fronts. Typically going high end consumer, prosumer, enthusiast and professional. A high end dell, an aleinware or a custom built machine are fine... however typically (90%) of the computers i see made by dell are the sub-$1000 sub-bar junk. Therefore, i refer to dell as a shitty parts assembler. Im the least apple bias person here, so id back off from the generalization (types this from his athlon 4400).
An example of my point:
Dell contracts for Used and Refurb WD Cavier as their staple HDD on a majority of their machines. The cavier is not only used and refurb but even new would only have a 1yr manufacturor warranty.
Apple buys a lot of Seagate, Hitachi and a few other drives. Average manufacutor warranty: 3 and 5 years.
An arguement to say that dell doesnt cut costs by buying cheaper parts is an uneducated one.
You continue to miss the point. Was i comparing a $600 dell with a $1500 apple. No and why would i?. That wouldn't make sense now would it?. But this generalization that all dell computers are crappy computers is overly simplistic,no?. Dell do sell some crappy computers and also some good computers.. why apple faithfull continue to compare the $600 dell with the $1500 apple is beyond me.
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I stopped reading the rant. ill say this:
Apple = 3-5% market share
HP = about 25%
Dell = 60%
(US Approx.)
Apple is a threat only in that they will innovate and there market share is more devoted. The average person doesnt really care if they have a dell or another brand, they just want a computer. Dell realizes as people switch to Apple, they rarely switch back-- so i can see where they might be worried about permanent market lose. With this said, by bashing apple, you would only draw more attention to Apple. If i was dell i would try to maginalize Apple as much as possible. Furthermore they are after different markets -- Apple doesnt have a competeing laptop to Dell's $600 one. Dell doesnt really make their money in high end except for business contracts, so why pick a fight with apple which competes for a different market segment?
Besides why piss off your customers who like apple because of the ipod.
Their business is as of the walmart of personal computers, and Apple will probably never take that away.
[/B]
Interesting, yet apple considers window boxes their competition. I do believe that apple is trying for the same consumer as dell. Dell is more successfull at getting that consumer but make no mistake, they are in the same market.
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I like dissenting opinions, mainly because this site is awfully bias (not that i mind)-- but your rants are VERY annoying.
[/B]
Your rants are even more annonying. I happen to own apple computers. I haven't bought a windows computer in a long time, i even own apple stock. I point this out to demonstrate that i believe in Apple but i haven't drank the coolaid. It's blind devotees like you who are extremely annonying. If apple was doing everything right, they, not microsoft, would dominate the market. If anyone cared that an intel chip is more exciting in a apple box than a windows box, i could understand but 99% consumers doesn't give a rats ass.. all the ad does is come across as a kind of schoolyard "my computer can beat up your computer" taunt.
Who cares!!!.. the ad should concentrate on stating why a mac is a better buy than a windows machine. That is what people want to know.
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ill give you one line in response:
You get what you pay for.
Pay for a $500 computer. Get $500 worth of computer. Its not about dell or anything. If i wanted to say apple was better, id point to the software. Hardware is mostly the same. The thing is dell sells a whole lot of $500 boxes. and Apple sells a whole lot of $1500 boxes. [/B]
Again, you with this $600 computer. What is with this obsession??. Who, other than you is comparing a $600 dell with a $1500 apple?.. where did i make this comparision?. Would it surprise you that many people who want to spend a lot of money on a computer (upwards 1000) still prefer a windows machine?. What's your theory for this?
You continue to miss the point. Was i comparing a $600 dell with a $1500 apple. No and why would i?. That wouldn't make sense now would it?. But this generalization that all dell computers are crappy computers is overly simplistic,no?. Dell do sell some crappy computers and also some good computers.. why apple faithfull continue to compare the $600 dell with the $1500 apple is beyond me.
Interesting, yet apple considers window boxes their competition. I do believe that apple is trying for the same consumer as dell. Dell is more successfull at getting that consumer but make no mistake, they are in the same market.
Your rants are even more annonying. I happen to own apple computers. I haven't bought a windows computer in a long time, i even own apple stock. I point this out to demonstrate that i believe in Apple but i haven't drank the coolaid. It's blind devotees like you who are extremely annonying. If apple was doing everything right, they, not microsoft, would dominate the market. If anyone cared that an intel chip is more exciting in a apple box than a windows box, i could understand but 99% consumers doesn't give a rats ass.. all the ad does is come across as a kind of schoolyard "my computer can beat up your computer" taunt.
Who cares!!!.. the ad should concentrate on stating why a mac is a better buy than a windows machine. That is what people want to know.
Again, you with this $600 computer. What is with this obsession??. Who, other than you is comparing a $600 dell with a $1500 apple?.. where did i make this comparision?. Would it surprise you that many people who want to spend a lot of money on a computer (upwards 1000) still prefer a windows machine?. What's your theory for this?
most dell computers in existance are the cheap 600 dollar ones. Its rare that i see one over 1000. When i do i usually say "oh this is a good machine, when i refer to dell being crappy i mean the cheap stuff, this is nice." Those situations are few and far between for me. All companies make high end and professional level stuff that rocks. However when i talk about Packard Bell in the 90's sucking im not referring to the 1% of high end professional stuff they make. When i talk about Ford im not talking about the jaguars they make. Common sense dude.
blind devotees? LOL. haha, no i just know good stuff when i see it and i hate admining a bunch of cheapass stuff that keeps failing. I like apple because the average user doesnt get into much trouble (note: i just came from downstairs fixing 2 family friends computers loaded with spyware and toolbars). Im hardly a devotee, im a PC guy, i have a windows PC and i love it, because i can handle windows problems (they still annoy me though). I just appreciate quality when i see it.
I agree about the ad. i dont like it. I like intel even less. youve stated your point 3 times on tangent. please reply with more comments about it though.
Comments
when you factor in the fact that people are buying crappy computers (aka dells) running windows, which they want to replace in about a year out of either desire (its slow)
Either mike meant that Dell computers are slow compared to Apple PPC (I hope you don´t mean that
For the two other points. I don´t really buy into the "we are intellectual superiour" stuff. Yes new users can screw up things, but equally on both sides.
And yes I supported Windows (and mac) users as well. My experience: WIndows users do what you tell them to. They don´t expect anything to be intuitive so give them a recipe and they will follow it to the letter. Mac users know they have a more intuitive machine and suddenly they just "feel" they get it and screw things up. Thats just my experience...
Originally posted by Anders
aegisdesign: About the speed issue. Look at what mike12309 wrote:
Either mike meant that Dell computers are slow compared to Apple PPC (I hope you don´t mean that
For the two other points. I don´t really buy into the "we are intellectual superiour" stuff. Yes new users can screw up things, but equally on both sides.
And yes I supported Windows (and mac) users as well. My experience: WIndows users do what you tell them to. They don´t expect anything to be intuitive so give them a recipe and they will follow it to the letter. Mac users know they have a more intuitive machine and suddenly they just "feel" they get it and screw things up. Thats just my experience...
1. i was referring to the cheap dells compared to anything else. i have a custom built gaming PC (Athlon 4400, 2GB Ram etc) its going to last more than a year. A P4 Celeron with 256 Ram and a Cavier drive isnt lasting more than 2 years, and nobody would want it after a year -- or at all.
Furthermore yes they do what they tell them -- thats if they have someone to tell them. Ive helped many people in my various tech jobs and otherwise, the thing i always find are entire families that just dont know about the preventative measures they should be taking. Even the more tech savvy individuals i find dont know about firefox, or about good firewall software or about adaware etc. If they do, great... but its rare. I agree most people do what they are told, but i also think their arnt enough truly knowledgeable people telling them. Further if they arnt reminded, they forget and frankly dont update or run anti-spyware.
Originally posted by Anders
Sorry. I just don´t read messages that start "Are you mental". We once had a user named CHEEETAH with whom I made that mistake
Are you mental?
ill try to add that into all my messages from now on.
Your experience differs from mine. I find Windows users fiddle with everything, install stuff without thinking and rarely update their software. Then again I know Mac users who still run Virex on OS9 like they think a 5 year old virus data file has any value.
But, the difference is, novice Windows users who don't look after their computers have a lot to lose - it's too easy to infect their computers and they've a much more fragile OS with updates and drivers coming from everywhere. It's no wonder their barely adequate 256MB Celerons with integrated graphics get slower and slower in the space of a year. And why they're so impressed when a 512MB Celeron a year later seems more snappy.
Intel knows this, that's why they changed their naming scheme from reflecting how fast the CPU was, which hasn't really changed in the last 3 years, to being some arcane numbering scheme that nobody has any chance to work out. Is a Pentium 535 better than a Celeron 640? (ok I made those up, but I've no idea how their numbering scheme works now)
Originally posted by mike12309
1. i was referring to the cheap dells compared to anything else. i have a custom built gaming PC (Athlon 4400, 2GB Ram etc) its going to last more than a year. A P4 Celeron with 256 Ram and a Cavier drive isnt lasting more than 2 years, and nobody would want it after a year -- or at all.
So according to that logic people would only buy one Dell. Then I don´t understand your original point about the same people buying more Dells because of speed issues. You are not making sense.
Originally posted by mike12309
Furthermore yes they do what they tell them -- thats if they have someone to tell them. Ive helped many people in my various tech jobs and otherwise, the thing i always find are entire families that just dont know about the preventative measures they should be taking. Even the more tech savvy individuals i find dont know about firefox, or about good firewall software or about adaware etc. If they do, great... but its rare. I agree most people do what they are told, but i also think their arnt enough truly knowledgeable people telling them.
Exactly what Apple users are doing as well.
Originally posted by mike12309
Further if they arnt reminded, they forget and frankly dont update or run anti-spyware.
Are you going to tell me that Dell owners, who go and buy a new Dell because their old Dell got infected by vira is going to be a significant portion of their customers.
Originally posted by mike12309
Are you mental?
ill try to add that into all my messages from now on.
Then you would quickly have problems with point 4 in this
Originally posted by a_greer
BULL...Apple and Dell serve 2 differant markets, like Ford and Lexus.
...
By the way: Apple has a much smaller share of the PC market if you look at...humm...i dunno, real, meaningfull numbers, like...hmmmmm....unit sales!
DELL'S business is SERIOUSLY fucked. They have no retail presence, and only about 10-15% of their overall sales go to consumers. Apple will be competing more with HP.
Furthermore, Dell has trapped itself into a comodoty product - the cheap PC. Their margins are just going to keep falling, growth in the business p.c. market is expected to be 5-6% over the next few years. Load their customer support and reliability problems on top of that and it isn't a pretty picture for them. Intel needs a company that will innovate and use it's latest technology - that's Apple.
Originally posted by Anders
So according to that logic people would only buy one Dell. Then I don´t understand your original point about the same people buying more Dells because of speed issues. You are not making sense.
Buy one dell. The computer [Insert previously mentioned typical Dell problems]. The user is confused/frustrated/forced between bringing to a professional or the idea of getting a "blazing fast new" computer. User either A) Buys new machine
Those who choose option A make my comments make sense.
Typical response i heard to a hard drive failure with a dell and my sales pitch on repair or buying a mac: "Thats okay i was just going to go get a new dell" or "thats okay i already ordered a new computer from dell"
Quote:
Are you going to tell me that Dell owners, who go and buy a new Dell because their old Dell got infected by vira is going to be a significant portion of their customers.
Depends on the user and depends on the level of infection.
I can tell you what i know, and that is that users DO. its more common when they have "minor" hardware failure (like a Harddrive or a CD-ROM) for them to see the computer as simple "broken", rather than seeing it as needing a new part X.
As far as customers with fucked up dells going back to dell -- yeah im as confused as you by this. What can i say, consumers are pretty dense when it comes to technology. VHS beat Beta. Windows beat MAC OS, Amiga Etc... People are comfortable with Windows -- and people are confortable with dell. That and dell still has a reputation for Quality, though thats fading fast. Most of all though, they are cheap. people love to go with the cheaper solution.
Originally posted by a_greer
By the way: Apple has a much smaller share of the PC market if you look at...humm...i dunno, real, meaningfull numbers, like...hmmmmm....unit sales!
Meaningful numbers for whom?
What matters in stock valuation is percieved value, be it some sort of gastric instinct or the best estimation as to the future of the company in terms of how much money it will get them. Dell is definitely the top PC name by unit sales, but there is no guarantee that they will remain so, though I don't think Apple is necessarily poised to take their place. Dell's market is cutthroat with very narrow margins, with diminishing quality of support where Apple seems to have managed to avoid that.
Originally posted by appleman76
Like I said before, I thought the coomercial was awesome. I see nothing wrong with it, yes they are bashing PC makers but thats what big corparations do. All the time I get bashed by Microsoft guys for using a mac. This commercial is an opertunity for us to shine and bash on the microsoft guys.
I'm not aware of one microsoft ad that ever bashed Apple. Are you aware of one?. Microsoft doesn't waste time with ads bashing the competition, they come out with a product and persuade/intimidate the marketplace into supporting. I've watched many Dell ads and they never bash apple and yet somehow, they are doing ok. Like one poster said, apple can make a case for it's superior operating system without bashing the competition. it sounds childish.
Originally posted by wnurse
I'm not aware of one microsoft ad that ever bashed Apple. Are you aware of one?. Microsoft doesn't waste time with ads bashing the competition, they come out with a product and persuade/intimidate the marketplace into supporting. I've watched many Dell ads and they never bash apple and yet somehow, they are doing ok. Like one poster said, apple can make a case for it's superior operating system without bashing the competition. it sounds childish.
um no, microsoft never bother because apple isnt a threat. Microsoft are a monopoly. There was never any competition. no competition = no one to bash. Furthermore by saying Apple in a commcerial not only would microsoft give them free ad time but it would make them out to be an alternative to microsoft and as a threat. Many people arnt even aware (as stupid as this sounds) that Apple makes computers. I cant tell you how many times ive heard people in an Apple store say, "hey is this different from windows" or "when did apple start making computers?".
As far as dell, who is dell gonna bash? HP? they use all the same parts as HP -- what do they bash them on? Dell is a parts assembler... who uses the same parts as HP, not much to bash them on there. Theya arnt going to bash apple because once again, apple is not a threat. Ive seen linux manufacturors bash windows before... in fact about all they do in preformance comparisons. But linux isnt mainstream enough for commercials (besides who would run them etc...)
I believe if you have a superior product you should make it known, however a more tasteful commercial could be made in my opinion. This one is kindda insulting to PC users, me included... my custom PC does a lot of non-dull stuff. It would be nice to actually showoff the advantages and then say "intel inside, but the rest is only found in a Mac" or "Intel processor + Apple inspiration.", "not your typical beiege box." -- or something.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
Novice users have no idea why there computer has got slower than it was when they bought it or why it's slow in the first place when the salesman said it had a 2.8Ghz processor with Intel HT technology, whatever that is. I've even heard it described as making your computer twice as fast!
At Macworld I overhead some people discussing Hyper Threading and wondering if that was the "dual" nature of the Core Duo processors. I set them straight.
I'm generally surprised at how popular HT is though. I don't see it as much of an advantage but rather a hack to help OSes/Apps that are poorly threaded or have poor thread management. Granted, if someone can show me some cases where HT really improves performance I might think differently.
Originally posted by mike12309
um no, microsoft never bother because apple isnt a threat. Microsoft are a monopoly. There was never any competition. no competition = no one to bash. Furthermore by saying Apple in a commcerial not only would microsoft give them free ad time but it would make them out to be an alternative to microsoft and as a threat. Many people arnt even aware (as stupid as this sounds) that Apple makes computers. I cant tell you how many times ive heard people in an Apple store say, "hey is this different from windows" or "when did apple start making computers?".
As far as dell, who is dell gonna bash? HP? they use all the same parts as HP -- what do they bash them on? Dell is a parts assembler... who uses the same parts as HP, not much to bash them on there. Theya arnt going to bash apple because once again, apple is not a threat. Ive seen linux manufacturors bash windows before... in fact about all they do in preformance comparisons. But linux isnt mainstream enough for commercials (besides who would run them etc...)
I believe if you have a superior product you should make it known, however a more tasteful commercial could be made in my opinion. This one is kindda insulting to PC users, me included... my custom PC does a lot of non-dull stuff. It would be nice to actually showoff the advantages and then say "intel inside, but the rest is only found in a Mac" or "Intel processor + Apple inspiration.", "not your typical beiege box." -- or something.
A couple of counterpoints.
1. Microsoft was not always a monopoly. I didn't ask if you saw microsoft bash apple yesterday or even last year. I asked if you ever saw them bash a competitor!!! (reading is fundamental).
2. So Dell, HP, IBM (before they sold to levono) all make crappy computers?.. According to this forum, dells puts crappy parts into it's machine so all these computer manufactures must make crappy computers.. wow.. so the company that sells apple their hard drive must have only apple as a customer cause all other computer makers that dell could possibly compare themselves to use the same crappy parts. I have to check but i am sure that the parts found in apple computers are found in Windows based computers from Dell, HP, etc.
3. Apple isn't a threat to dell?.. that must be news to the apple faithfull who continually predict the demise of Dell (just as often as they predict the demise of microsoft).
apparently (and you must not have gotten the memo), dell, i mean, dull has crappy computers and a crappy business plan and they know that apple will crush them. Perhaps the apple faithfull know that apple is dell competitor but Dell, a guy who built a billion dollar business (i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say none of us is head of a multi-billion dollar computer company and also none of us started from scratch to build said company) somehow has lost his acute business acumen and suddenly does not recognize his competitors?. Yeah, that sounds likely.
About the only thing i agree with you is that the apple ad could have been more tastefull.
I would like to remind all the apple faitfull that like to gleefully point out how crappy dell is and how high quality apple is.. one word. Betamax.
Originally posted by Xool
At Macworld I overhead some people discussing Hyper Threading and wondering if that was the "dual" nature of the Core Duo processors. I set them straight.
I'm generally surprised at how popular HT is though. I don't see it as much of an advantage but rather a hack to help OSes/Apps that are poorly threaded or have poor thread management. Granted, if someone can show me some cases where HT really improves performance I might think differently.
And it only helps apps that can use multi-procs, like Photoshop or Cad, dual cores arre better...Thus gamers and many pros have gone to AMD...cheaper dual core goodness and better speed.
Two real cores beats a better multitasking algorithem on one core by the laws of physics.
Originally posted by wnurse
A couple of counterpoints.
1. Microsoft was not always a monopoly. I didn't ask if you saw microsoft bash apple yesterday or even last year. I asked if you ever saw them bash a competitor!!! (reading is fundamental).
Does driving companies out of business count as bashing? by the time microsoft was big enough and had enough money to run commercials, they were a monopoly. I dont think when they were competeing with commodore they could afford it.
2. So Dell, HP, IBM (before they sold to levono) all make crappy computers?.. According to this forum, dells puts crappy parts into it's machine so all these computer manufactures must make crappy computers.. wow.. so the company that sells apple their hard drive must have only apple as a customer cause all other computer makers that dell could possibly compare themselves to use the same crappy parts. I have to check but i am sure that the parts found in apple computers are found in Windows based computers from Dell, HP, etc.
Yes, all hardware you buy from Dell, Hp etc for $600 is junk. In order to get a decent product, you have to pay for it. If you do pay for it, the product is decent (regardless of brand). its called "consumer level" because its crap. Apple chooses to stay out of consumer level computers on many fronts. Typically going high end consumer, prosumer, enthusiast and professional. A high end dell, an aleinware or a custom built machine are fine... however typically (90%) of the computers i see made by dell are the sub-$1000 sub-bar junk. Therefore, i refer to dell as a shitty parts assembler. Im the least apple bias person here, so id back off from the generalization (types this from his athlon 4400).
An example of my point:
Dell contracts for Used and Refurb WD Cavier as their staple HDD on a majority of their machines. The cavier is not only used and refurb but even new would only have a 1yr manufacturor warranty.
Apple buys a lot of Seagate, Hitachi and a few other drives. Average manufacutor warranty: 3 and 5 years.
An arguement to say that dell doesnt cut costs by buying cheaper parts is an uneducated one.
3. Apple isn't a threat to dell?.. that must be news to the apple faithfull who continually predict the demise of Dell (just as often as they predict the demise of microsoft).
apparently (and you must not have gotten the memo), dell, i mean, dull has crappy computers and a crappy business plan and they know that apple will crush them. Perhaps the apple faithfull know that apple is dell competitor but Dell, a guy who built a billion dollar business (i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say none of us is head of a multi-billion dollar computer company and also none of us started from scratch to build said company) somehow has lost his acute business acumen and suddenly does not recognize his competitors?. Yeah, that sounds likely.
I stopped reading the rant. ill say this:
Apple = 3-5% market share
HP = about 25%
Dell = 60%
(US Approx.)
Apple is a threat only in that they will innovate and there market share is more devoted. The average person doesnt really care if they have a dell or another brand, they just want a computer. Dell realizes as people switch to Apple, they rarely switch back-- so i can see where they might be worried about permanent market lose. With this said, by bashing apple, you would only draw more attention to Apple. If i was dell i would try to maginalize Apple as much as possible. Furthermore they are after different markets -- Apple doesnt have a competeing laptop to Dell's $600 one. Dell doesnt really make their money in high end except for business contracts, so why pick a fight with apple which competes for a different market segment?
Besides why piss off your customers who like apple because of the ipod.
Their business is as of the walmart of personal computers, and Apple will probably never take that away.
About the only thing i agree with you is that the apple ad could have been more tastefull.
I would like to remind all the apple faitfull that like to gleefully point out how crappy dell is and how high quality apple is.. one word. Betamax.
I like dissenting opinions, mainly because this site is awfully bias (not that i mind)-- but your rants are VERY annoying.
ill give you one line in response:
You get what you pay for.
Pay for a $500 computer. Get $500 worth of computer. Its not about dell or anything. If i wanted to say apple was better, id point to the software. Hardware is mostly the same. The thing is dell sells a whole lot of $500 boxes. and Apple sells a whole lot of $1500 boxes.
Originally posted by mike12309
Does driving companies out of business count as bashing? by the time microsoft was big enough and had enough money to run commercials, they were a monopoly. I dont think when they were competeing with commodore they could afford it.
Yes, all hardware you buy from Dell, Hp etc for $600 is junk. In order to get a decent product, you have to pay for it. If you do pay for it, the product is decent (regardless of brand). its called "consumer level" because its crap. Apple chooses to stay out of consumer level computers on many fronts. Typically going high end consumer, prosumer, enthusiast and professional. A high end dell, an aleinware or a custom built machine are fine... however typically (90%) of the computers i see made by dell are the sub-$1000 sub-bar junk. Therefore, i refer to dell as a shitty parts assembler. Im the least apple bias person here, so id back off from the generalization (types this from his athlon 4400).
An example of my point:
Dell contracts for Used and Refurb WD Cavier as their staple HDD on a majority of their machines. The cavier is not only used and refurb but even new would only have a 1yr manufacturor warranty.
Apple buys a lot of Seagate, Hitachi and a few other drives. Average manufacutor warranty: 3 and 5 years.
An arguement to say that dell doesnt cut costs by buying cheaper parts is an uneducated one.
You continue to miss the point. Was i comparing a $600 dell with a $1500 apple. No and why would i?. That wouldn't make sense now would it?. But this generalization that all dell computers are crappy computers is overly simplistic,no?. Dell do sell some crappy computers and also some good computers.. why apple faithfull continue to compare the $600 dell with the $1500 apple is beyond me.
I stopped reading the rant. ill say this:
Apple = 3-5% market share
HP = about 25%
Dell = 60%
(US Approx.)
Apple is a threat only in that they will innovate and there market share is more devoted. The average person doesnt really care if they have a dell or another brand, they just want a computer. Dell realizes as people switch to Apple, they rarely switch back-- so i can see where they might be worried about permanent market lose. With this said, by bashing apple, you would only draw more attention to Apple. If i was dell i would try to maginalize Apple as much as possible. Furthermore they are after different markets -- Apple doesnt have a competeing laptop to Dell's $600 one. Dell doesnt really make their money in high end except for business contracts, so why pick a fight with apple which competes for a different market segment?
Besides why piss off your customers who like apple because of the ipod.
Their business is as of the walmart of personal computers, and Apple will probably never take that away.
[/B]
Interesting, yet apple considers window boxes their competition. I do believe that apple is trying for the same consumer as dell. Dell is more successfull at getting that consumer but make no mistake, they are in the same market.
I like dissenting opinions, mainly because this site is awfully bias (not that i mind)-- but your rants are VERY annoying.
[/B]
Your rants are even more annonying. I happen to own apple computers. I haven't bought a windows computer in a long time, i even own apple stock. I point this out to demonstrate that i believe in Apple but i haven't drank the coolaid. It's blind devotees like you who are extremely annonying. If apple was doing everything right, they, not microsoft, would dominate the market. If anyone cared that an intel chip is more exciting in a apple box than a windows box, i could understand but 99% consumers doesn't give a rats ass.. all the ad does is come across as a kind of schoolyard "my computer can beat up your computer" taunt.
Who cares!!!.. the ad should concentrate on stating why a mac is a better buy than a windows machine. That is what people want to know.
ill give you one line in response:
You get what you pay for.
Pay for a $500 computer. Get $500 worth of computer. Its not about dell or anything. If i wanted to say apple was better, id point to the software. Hardware is mostly the same. The thing is dell sells a whole lot of $500 boxes. and Apple sells a whole lot of $1500 boxes. [/B]
Again, you with this $600 computer. What is with this obsession??. Who, other than you is comparing a $600 dell with a $1500 apple?.. where did i make this comparision?. Would it surprise you that many people who want to spend a lot of money on a computer (upwards 1000) still prefer a windows machine?. What's your theory for this?
Originally posted by wnurse
You continue to miss the point. Was i comparing a $600 dell with a $1500 apple. No and why would i?. That wouldn't make sense now would it?. But this generalization that all dell computers are crappy computers is overly simplistic,no?. Dell do sell some crappy computers and also some good computers.. why apple faithfull continue to compare the $600 dell with the $1500 apple is beyond me.
Interesting, yet apple considers window boxes their competition. I do believe that apple is trying for the same consumer as dell. Dell is more successfull at getting that consumer but make no mistake, they are in the same market.
Your rants are even more annonying. I happen to own apple computers. I haven't bought a windows computer in a long time, i even own apple stock. I point this out to demonstrate that i believe in Apple but i haven't drank the coolaid. It's blind devotees like you who are extremely annonying. If apple was doing everything right, they, not microsoft, would dominate the market. If anyone cared that an intel chip is more exciting in a apple box than a windows box, i could understand but 99% consumers doesn't give a rats ass.. all the ad does is come across as a kind of schoolyard "my computer can beat up your computer" taunt.
Who cares!!!.. the ad should concentrate on stating why a mac is a better buy than a windows machine. That is what people want to know.
Again, you with this $600 computer. What is with this obsession??. Who, other than you is comparing a $600 dell with a $1500 apple?.. where did i make this comparision?. Would it surprise you that many people who want to spend a lot of money on a computer (upwards 1000) still prefer a windows machine?. What's your theory for this?
most dell computers in existance are the cheap 600 dollar ones. Its rare that i see one over 1000. When i do i usually say "oh this is a good machine, when i refer to dell being crappy i mean the cheap stuff, this is nice." Those situations are few and far between for me. All companies make high end and professional level stuff that rocks. However when i talk about Packard Bell in the 90's sucking im not referring to the 1% of high end professional stuff they make. When i talk about Ford im not talking about the jaguars they make. Common sense dude.
blind devotees? LOL. haha, no i just know good stuff when i see it and i hate admining a bunch of cheapass stuff that keeps failing. I like apple because the average user doesnt get into much trouble (note: i just came from downstairs fixing 2 family friends computers loaded with spyware and toolbars). Im hardly a devotee, im a PC guy, i have a windows PC and i love it, because i can handle windows problems (they still annoy me though). I just appreciate quality when i see it.
I agree about the ad. i dont like it. I like intel even less. youve stated your point 3 times on tangent. please reply with more comments about it though.
We are moving ever so far from the subject.
If the discussion is meaaningful to anyone, start a new thread.