I'm not concerned about iWorks market share, it really has no meaning since it won't be available in a Windows version.
For me iWork is a work in progress to eventually replace AppleWorks and will take care of a lot of user needs when finalized.
There is definitely a need for a spreadsheet in a traditional format. There is also a need for a version of Filemaker Jr. to take care of the database needs and I see both of these being added when they are ready.
Regardless of the level of development iWorks reaches it isn't going to take over the lead from Office as long as business require Office for some functions - it will just add different functions for users, many of them more attractive than Office.
When you remember that iWork has only been available for just over a year, with a bit longer for Keynote, and compare that to the years of development behind Office it appears that Apple is doing pretty well.
iWork is NOT a competitor to Office. Unfortunately, many people right here in these threads have been saying that it is. So when some question that and ask who is saying that, it's easy to read back into previous threads and find many who are.
Having said that, it can also be said that perhaps 20% of Mac users are using it rather than Office. That might be true, but those people don't need the features that Office has.
It's one thing to say that Pages is just as good as Word for what they do, and so they don't need Office. That Office, therefore, is no better than Pages. That is surely true.
But it's another thing to say that iWork can substitute for Office for those who DO need the features of Office.
In that sense, iWork does not become useful.
It's true that Office doesn't have a drawing, or painting module. That's because it wasn't designed primarily for schools and the home, as Appleworks was.
It's too bad that Office for the Mac doesn't have Access as well, as does the PC version. But, Filemaker is so popular here, that it likely didn't make sense for them to add it.
If you do need an office suite that doesn't cost too much. and that includes Excel, then you can always buy the Office Student/Teacher edition. That is close to being identical to the much more expensive Office suite. I've seen it selling for as little as $110, for the Mac, though a more usual price is about $135.
But it doesn't have a spreadsheet, painting program, drawing program, or database.
I think you can remove the drawing program from your list because Pages looks like a combination of the word processor and drawing program. I can think of a few reasons why iWork did not get new applications and they are:
1) Apple is concentrating on getting their current applications compiled into universal binaries.
2) MWSF2006 was about unveiling the Intel powered Macs and iLife. Specifically, how iLife, .mac, iTMS (podcasts), and iPods can not only function separately, but when combined, provide a person with a personal digital ecosystem they can use to express/share their life (interests, opinions, etc.) seamlessly.
3) Apple does have a spreadsheet app ready, but because of #2 there wasn't enough time to properly demonstrate it and how Keynote and Pages seamlessly integrates with it. For this reason the spreadsheet will be unveiled at WWDC2006.
I think you can remove the drawing program from your list because Pages looks like a combination of the word processor and drawing program. I can think of a few reasons why iWork did not get new applications and they are:
1) Apple is concentrating on getting their current applications compiled into universal binaries.
2) MWSF2006 was about unveiling the Intel powered Macs and iLife. Specifically, how iLife, .mac, iTMS (podcasts), and iPods can not only function separately, but when combined, provide a person with a personal digital ecosystem they can use to express/share their life (interests, opinions, etc.) seamlessly.
3) Apple does have a spreadsheet app ready, but because of #2 there wasn't enough time to properly demonstrate it and how Keynote and Pages seamlessly integrates with it. For this reason the spreadsheet will be unveiled at WWDC2006.
I can only partly agree here. Apple is concentrating in getting U Binaries out the door. But, they have a lot of money. They could always hire a few dozen more programmers, if they really want to.
We have Pages here at home as well. It does not serve as a drawing program at all. Far too primitive for that.
iWork wasn't introduced at MWSF2006, it's been around for quite a while now. You're talking about iWork 2.
They had plenty of time to come up with major upgrades to iLife 6, even adding an entire new program, so I don't agree with that.
Unless you work for Apple, you don't know about any spreadsheet that Apple might or might not have ready, or when they might introduce it, other than making same guesses we all have been making. We all know that they own Filemaker. I've said from the very beginning, when iWork first came out, that Apple should have included a simpler version with the "suite". With some mods, it could also be used as a simple database as well.
iWorks IS a competitor to MS Works for 80-90% of Mac users.
No, it isn't. Appleworks was, or still is.
I'll make a bet that most Mac users don't even know about MS Works. A product doesn't compete against something, if the customers don't know that the something else exists.
Of course, MS Works doesn't exist for the Mac, so, even there, it isn't a competitor. And as iWork doesn't exist for the PC, it can't, in the slightest way, be a competitor for it there either.
Appleworks was THE cross platform competitor to MS Works. And was always considered to be the much better product.
You can consider iWork, or Appleworks, to be a competitor to Office Student/Teacher.
MS Works is still being made!? I haven't heard of that since like, the 90s. In middle school.
And melgross, I don't know if you know but MS Works did exist for the Mac. Like waaay back I know. Just thought it was an interesting note. I think I came across it on my dad's wicked old Mac IIsi one time. Like back when there was Office 4 or something.
Keynote is harder to use than PowerPoint in a few ways. Like, why doesn't the text get smaller when I type? I thought it would be easier to use. It actually has a kind of retarded interface so far as I've been exploring with it. Pages templates look REALLY nice and so do Keynote presentations though. I mean I don't even know what is is, something with OpenGL or something? They both just LOOK so much...crisper, or something.
MS Works is still being made!? I haven't heard of that since like, the 90s. In middle school.
And melgross, I don't know if you know but MS Works did exist for the Mac. Like waaay back I know. Just thought it was an interesting note. I think I came across it on my dad's wicked old Mac IIsi one time. Like back when there was Office 4 or something.
Keynote is harder to use than PowerPoint in a few ways. Like, why doesn't the text get smaller when I type? I thought it would be easier to use. It actually has a kind of retarded interface so far as I've been exploring with it. Pages templates look REALLY nice and so do Keynote presentations though. I mean I don't even know what is is, something with OpenGL or something? They both just LOOK so much...crisper, or something.
MS Works is not only still being produced, but they have two versions, including Works 2006, for $99.
Yes, they did make it for the Mac, many moons ago. It lost out to Appleworks on the Mac. though, and hasn't been seen for ages, so, that doesn't really count.
I can only partly agree here. Apple is concentrating in getting U Binaries out the door. But, they have a lot of money. They could always hire a few dozen more programmers, if they really want to.
Maybe it takes longer than you think. Remember, the first rumors of Pages showed up in 2003, and the product didn't launch until 2005. Also, word has it iWeb was originally going to be called Webpages and be part of iWork, so the Spreadsheet might have been a bit on the back burner as the web program was meant to be this year's addition to iWork.
Quote:
iWork wasn't introduced at MWSF2006, it's been around for quite a while now. You're talking about iWork 2.
iWork is a year old. Prior to that, Keynote 1.x was two years old.
I'll make a bet that most Mac users don't even know about MS Works. A product doesn't compete against something, if the customers don't know that the something else exists.
I meant MS Office. MS Works hasn't been around for ages. I had it. It was crap.
Maybe it takes longer than you think. Remember, the first rumors of Pages showed up in 2003, and the product didn't launch until 2005. Also, word has it iWeb was originally going to be called Webpages and be part of iWork, so the Spreadsheet might have been a bit on the back burner as the web program was meant to be this year's addition to iWork.
iWork is a year old. Prior to that, Keynote 1.x was two years old. [/B]
I know when it came out, I bought it them. As I say, it was around long enough.
Apple has had Filemaker for how long now? They could have come out with a spreadsheet for iWork 05 if they wanted to. The fact that they haven't, could simply mean that they haven't wanted to, not that they couldn't.
What does owning FileMaker have to do with producing a spreadsheet application? Databases and spreadsheets are different types of software. Also, the iWork package is all Cocoa programs, and FileMaker is still Carbon.
When Apple adds a spreadsheet to iWork, and there's nothing indicating that they won't, and there are rumors that they will -- the exact same sort of rumors that spilled out 18 months before Pages premiered -- that spreadsheet will be a ground-up piece of software, just like Keynote and Pages.
What does owning FileMaker have to do with producing a spreadsheet application? Databases and spreadsheets are different types of software. Also, the iWork package is all Cocoa programs, and FileMaker is still Carbon.
When Apple adds a spreadsheet to iWork, and there's nothing indicating that they won't, and there are rumors that they will -- the exact same sort of rumors that spilled out 18 months before Pages premiered -- that spreadsheet will be a ground-up piece of software, just like Keynote and Pages.
If you think about the basic concept of a spreadsheet and a database, you will realise that they have more in common than they don't. Both apps can have columns and cells, both can catagorize relationships between points of data, etc. Actually, over the years, either has been used for simpler purposes. It's only when more complex database types were developed (relationial, object oriented, etc.) that they diverged to what we see today.
Transforming one into the other is easier than you think.
When Apple adds a spreadsheet to iWork, and there's nothing indicating that they won't, and there are rumors that they will -- the exact same sort of rumors that spilled out 18 months before Pages premiered -- that spreadsheet will be a ground-up piece of software, just like Keynote and Pages.
I hope so too. Filemaker wouldn't be a good place to start from for either a spreadsheet or a database program today. It's one crufty piece of software. Crufty in concept, crufty in implementation. I'd rather use Access than have to use Filemaker.
If you think about the basic concept of a spreadsheet and a database, you will realise that they have more in common than they don't. Both apps can have columns and cells, both can catagorize relationships between points of data, etc. Actually, over the years, either has been used for simpler purposes. It's only when more complex database types were developed (relationial, object oriented, etc.) that they diverged to what we see today.
Transforming one into the other is easier than you think.
I beg to differ. If all you're doing is using a spreadsheet to store lists and simple calculations then yes, the difference is small. However, spreadsheet programs have much richer mathematical modelling functions than SQL has and databases have much richer relationship functions than you can do in a spreadsheet.
You're confusing the front end with the engine underneath.
Comments
For me iWork is a work in progress to eventually replace AppleWorks and will take care of a lot of user needs when finalized.
There is definitely a need for a spreadsheet in a traditional format. There is also a need for a version of Filemaker Jr. to take care of the database needs and I see both of these being added when they are ready.
Regardless of the level of development iWorks reaches it isn't going to take over the lead from Office as long as business require Office for some functions - it will just add different functions for users, many of them more attractive than Office.
When you remember that iWork has only been available for just over a year, with a bit longer for Keynote, and compare that to the years of development behind Office it appears that Apple is doing pretty well.
Having said that, it can also be said that perhaps 20% of Mac users are using it rather than Office. That might be true, but those people don't need the features that Office has.
It's one thing to say that Pages is just as good as Word for what they do, and so they don't need Office. That Office, therefore, is no better than Pages. That is surely true.
But it's another thing to say that iWork can substitute for Office for those who DO need the features of Office.
In that sense, iWork does not become useful.
It's true that Office doesn't have a drawing, or painting module. That's because it wasn't designed primarily for schools and the home, as Appleworks was.
It's too bad that Office for the Mac doesn't have Access as well, as does the PC version. But, Filemaker is so popular here, that it likely didn't make sense for them to add it.
If you do need an office suite that doesn't cost too much. and that includes Excel, then you can always buy the Office Student/Teacher edition. That is close to being identical to the much more expensive Office suite. I've seen it selling for as little as $110, for the Mac, though a more usual price is about $135.
Originally posted by zunx
Does iWork open or import MacWrite Pro documents? Would be great for us (not requiring MacLink Plus Deluxe, which does not convert properly).
I suspect not but if you've got one handy I can check.
Originally posted by melgross
But it doesn't have a spreadsheet, painting program, drawing program, or database.
I think you can remove the drawing program from your list because Pages looks like a combination of the word processor and drawing program. I can think of a few reasons why iWork did not get new applications and they are:
1) Apple is concentrating on getting their current applications compiled into universal binaries.
2) MWSF2006 was about unveiling the Intel powered Macs and iLife. Specifically, how iLife, .mac, iTMS (podcasts), and iPods can not only function separately, but when combined, provide a person with a personal digital ecosystem they can use to express/share their life (interests, opinions, etc.) seamlessly.
3) Apple does have a spreadsheet app ready, but because of #2 there wasn't enough time to properly demonstrate it and how Keynote and Pages seamlessly integrates with it. For this reason the spreadsheet will be unveiled at WWDC2006.
Originally posted by troberts
I think you can remove the drawing program from your list because Pages looks like a combination of the word processor and drawing program. I can think of a few reasons why iWork did not get new applications and they are:
1) Apple is concentrating on getting their current applications compiled into universal binaries.
2) MWSF2006 was about unveiling the Intel powered Macs and iLife. Specifically, how iLife, .mac, iTMS (podcasts), and iPods can not only function separately, but when combined, provide a person with a personal digital ecosystem they can use to express/share their life (interests, opinions, etc.) seamlessly.
3) Apple does have a spreadsheet app ready, but because of #2 there wasn't enough time to properly demonstrate it and how Keynote and Pages seamlessly integrates with it. For this reason the spreadsheet will be unveiled at WWDC2006.
I can only partly agree here. Apple is concentrating in getting U Binaries out the door. But, they have a lot of money. They could always hire a few dozen more programmers, if they really want to.
We have Pages here at home as well. It does not serve as a drawing program at all. Far too primitive for that.
iWork wasn't introduced at MWSF2006, it's been around for quite a while now. You're talking about iWork 2.
They had plenty of time to come up with major upgrades to iLife 6, even adding an entire new program, so I don't agree with that.
Unless you work for Apple, you don't know about any spreadsheet that Apple might or might not have ready, or when they might introduce it, other than making same guesses we all have been making. We all know that they own Filemaker. I've said from the very beginning, when iWork first came out, that Apple should have included a simpler version with the "suite". With some mods, it could also be used as a simple database as well.
But we don't know what Apple has in mind.
Originally posted by vinney57
iWorks IS a competitor to MS Works for 80-90% of Mac users.
No, it isn't. Appleworks was, or still is.
I'll make a bet that most Mac users don't even know about MS Works. A product doesn't compete against something, if the customers don't know that the something else exists.
Of course, MS Works doesn't exist for the Mac, so, even there, it isn't a competitor. And as iWork doesn't exist for the PC, it can't, in the slightest way, be a competitor for it there either.
Appleworks was THE cross platform competitor to MS Works. And was always considered to be the much better product.
You can consider iWork, or Appleworks, to be a competitor to Office Student/Teacher.
Originally posted by melgross
I'll make a bet that most Mac users don't even know about MS Works.
I bloody well know about it. I've a client that sends me their menus in MS Works format. Mac Word doesn't even support all MS Works documents.
I have to use Office 2000 on Windows and a downloaded convertor before saving it to a Word document and then loading it into Pages. ;-)
Originally posted by aegisdesign
I bloody well know about it. I've a client that sends me their menus in MS Works format. Mac Word doesn't even support all MS Works documents.
I have to use Office 2000 on Windows and a downloaded convertor before saving it to a Word document and then loading it into Pages. ;-)
Well, I don't consider you to be one of the "most users".
You know the users I mean.
I've never been fond of MS Works either.
And melgross, I don't know if you know but MS Works did exist for the Mac. Like waaay back I know. Just thought it was an interesting note. I think I came across it on my dad's wicked old Mac IIsi one time. Like back when there was Office 4 or something.
Keynote is harder to use than PowerPoint in a few ways. Like, why doesn't the text get smaller when I type? I thought it would be easier to use. It actually has a kind of retarded interface so far as I've been exploring with it. Pages templates look REALLY nice and so do Keynote presentations though. I mean I don't even know what is is, something with OpenGL or something? They both just LOOK so much...crisper, or something.
Originally posted by Aquatic
MS Works is still being made!? I haven't heard of that since like, the 90s. In middle school.
And melgross, I don't know if you know but MS Works did exist for the Mac. Like waaay back I know. Just thought it was an interesting note. I think I came across it on my dad's wicked old Mac IIsi one time. Like back when there was Office 4 or something.
Keynote is harder to use than PowerPoint in a few ways. Like, why doesn't the text get smaller when I type? I thought it would be easier to use. It actually has a kind of retarded interface so far as I've been exploring with it. Pages templates look REALLY nice and so do Keynote presentations though. I mean I don't even know what is is, something with OpenGL or something? They both just LOOK so much...crisper, or something.
MS Works is not only still being produced, but they have two versions, including Works 2006, for $99.
http://www.microsoft.com/products/works/products.aspx
Yes, they did make it for the Mac, many moons ago. It lost out to Appleworks on the Mac. though, and hasn't been seen for ages, so, that doesn't really count.
Originally posted by melgross
I can only partly agree here. Apple is concentrating in getting U Binaries out the door. But, they have a lot of money. They could always hire a few dozen more programmers, if they really want to.
Maybe it takes longer than you think. Remember, the first rumors of Pages showed up in 2003, and the product didn't launch until 2005. Also, word has it iWeb was originally going to be called Webpages and be part of iWork, so the Spreadsheet might have been a bit on the back burner as the web program was meant to be this year's addition to iWork.
iWork wasn't introduced at MWSF2006, it's been around for quite a while now. You're talking about iWork 2.
iWork is a year old. Prior to that, Keynote 1.x was two years old.
Originally posted by Aquatic
Keynote is harder to use than PowerPoint in a few ways. Like, why doesn't the text get smaller when I type?
Perhaps its encouraging good behavior. You shouldn't be putting a lot of text on a presentation slide.
Originally posted by melgross
No, it isn't. Appleworks was, or still is.
I'll make a bet that most Mac users don't even know about MS Works. A product doesn't compete against something, if the customers don't know that the something else exists.
I meant MS Office. MS Works hasn't been around for ages. I had it. It was crap.
Originally posted by Fireball1244
Maybe it takes longer than you think. Remember, the first rumors of Pages showed up in 2003, and the product didn't launch until 2005. Also, word has it iWeb was originally going to be called Webpages and be part of iWork, so the Spreadsheet might have been a bit on the back burner as the web program was meant to be this year's addition to iWork.
iWork is a year old. Prior to that, Keynote 1.x was two years old. [/B]
I know when it came out, I bought it them. As I say, it was around long enough.
Apple has had Filemaker for how long now? They could have come out with a spreadsheet for iWork 05 if they wanted to. The fact that they haven't, could simply mean that they haven't wanted to, not that they couldn't.
When Apple adds a spreadsheet to iWork, and there's nothing indicating that they won't, and there are rumors that they will -- the exact same sort of rumors that spilled out 18 months before Pages premiered -- that spreadsheet will be a ground-up piece of software, just like Keynote and Pages.
Originally posted by Fireball1244
What does owning FileMaker have to do with producing a spreadsheet application? Databases and spreadsheets are different types of software. Also, the iWork package is all Cocoa programs, and FileMaker is still Carbon.
When Apple adds a spreadsheet to iWork, and there's nothing indicating that they won't, and there are rumors that they will -- the exact same sort of rumors that spilled out 18 months before Pages premiered -- that spreadsheet will be a ground-up piece of software, just like Keynote and Pages.
If you think about the basic concept of a spreadsheet and a database, you will realise that they have more in common than they don't. Both apps can have columns and cells, both can catagorize relationships between points of data, etc. Actually, over the years, either has been used for simpler purposes. It's only when more complex database types were developed (relationial, object oriented, etc.) that they diverged to what we see today.
Transforming one into the other is easier than you think.
Originally posted by Fireball1244
When Apple adds a spreadsheet to iWork, and there's nothing indicating that they won't, and there are rumors that they will -- the exact same sort of rumors that spilled out 18 months before Pages premiered -- that spreadsheet will be a ground-up piece of software, just like Keynote and Pages.
I hope so too. Filemaker wouldn't be a good place to start from for either a spreadsheet or a database program today. It's one crufty piece of software. Crufty in concept, crufty in implementation. I'd rather use Access than have to use Filemaker.
Originally posted by melgross
If you think about the basic concept of a spreadsheet and a database, you will realise that they have more in common than they don't. Both apps can have columns and cells, both can catagorize relationships between points of data, etc. Actually, over the years, either has been used for simpler purposes. It's only when more complex database types were developed (relationial, object oriented, etc.) that they diverged to what we see today.
Transforming one into the other is easier than you think.
I beg to differ. If all you're doing is using a spreadsheet to store lists and simple calculations then yes, the difference is small. However, spreadsheet programs have much richer mathematical modelling functions than SQL has and databases have much richer relationship functions than you can do in a spreadsheet.
You're confusing the front end with the engine underneath.