I sincerely doubt it, but it would be an interesting study to do. Have some students take notes with a computer and others with paper, and see who retains more, takes better notes, does better in the class, etc. I know where I'd place my bets.
But I could see it for some classes and not for others. I teach a lot of statistics, and I don't see how it could possibly be efficient there, with the current state of computers. I even teach stats in a computer room, where every student sits in front of a computer using R. But every one of them turns to paper to write down the math notation and the pictures of distributions and stuff like that. It's just so much more efficient than trying to get it into a computer correctly.
It also seems to me that, in lecture halls, the people with laptops tend to screw around more often. The tool gets in the way a lot more than paper and pencil. There are other distractions aside from computers, of course. You can doodle on your notes if you don't want to pay attention. But you can't decide on a new desktop picture, flip through 10,000 songs in iTunes, surf a billion web sites, and play Unreal Tournament.
In any case, I certainly wouldn't ban computers (and I doubt hardeehar would either). I just doubt the efficiency of using them for note-taking for most classes, given the current state of technology. And in my experience, the vast majority of students agree with me.
Point taken, but I don't think that the 'I pay your salary' argument holds much water. People use it too much, and feel that they are entitled to things because they 'pay someone's salary.' (retail outlets, restaurants, government jobs, service positions, etc)
I agree with you that his stance on laptops is antiquated and misguided, but I just don't like your argument against it. Sorry.
My stance certainly isn't antiquated, any more than my stance on powerpoint presentations, computers don't make everything better. They are good tools for very specific things, and that's it.
With all due respect, if I'm contributing to your hefty salary as a professor, I don't give a sh*t if I'm wasting your time.
I always thought it was ridiculous when my professors would dock points from our grade for low attendance. Same argument. I'm paying for the class. I'll show up when and if I please.
You, as a professor, are getting paid to teach a class that I'm paying for and then do your research and studies outside of that. But hell, most professors don't even teach their own classes anymore. They get some graduate student to do it for them. Now I'm glad I'm paying your salary to not show up to class.
Higher education is screwed up and I'm glad I'm finished with it.
How far can you take this reasoning? "I pay for this, so why should I take your exams?" If attendance is part of the grade requirement, and you don't like it, you can drop the class. But I don't see why actually attending class is such an unreasonable request to make when their job is to ensure that you get something out of the class. I personally don't give a shit, and even though class attendance is the biggest predictor of grades, I'm cynical enough that I figure if they want to "pay my salary" but flunk the class, why should I care. Maybe they're rich and this is just their way of paying taxes.
Professors don't get grad students to teach, administrators do. They love it because they don't pay them squat, and states have basically defunded public higher education over the past 25 years so they can't afford to hire professors to teach when they can have a pee-on do it for nothing.
I sincerely doubt it, but it would be an interesting study to do. Have some students take notes with a computer and others with paper, and see who retains more, takes better notes, does better in the class, etc. I know where I'd place my bets.
What would that prove? Someone like me would take good notes and get an A in the class either way, but with the computer it's just far less of a PITA, more comprehensive, takes less time and ends up being more useful to me in the long run.
FWIW, from my last class this week: exactly 3598 words, not including the table of contents that mediawiki automatically generates.
Quote:
But I could see it for some classes and not for others. I teach a lot of statistics, and I don't see how it could possibly be efficient there, with the current state of computers.
Understandable, and I know very little about statistics, but you never know what students are using. I use mediawiki and wiki markup makes tables, special characters, sub/superscripts, etc very easy to create very quickly for a decent typist. If you are interested, you can look up mediawiki markup details including mediawiki's TeX-based formula markup. It's relatively easy to remember markup and when using it frequently.
Quote:
It also seems to me that, in lecture halls, the people with laptops tend to screw around more often.
I don't know where you teach, but both my wife and I went to Northwestern for our undergrads (incidentally, hers was in statistics) and, after asking her just now, she had the same experience as me: very few kids screwing around (none obviously screwing around on the computer) while the majority of kids were always competing to be top student.
Quote:
The tool gets in the way a lot more than paper and pencil.
Like I said, in my experience it's the extreme opposite.
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And in my experience, the vast majority of students agree with me.
And the reason is because they don't know how easy it can be. It seems to me that it's simply a lack of familiarity with the tools that exist. Invariably, once other students see me typing great-looking notes they figure out their own way to do it, most often using their web mail service. I've found no shortage of students interested in typing notes as soon as it occurs to them that it's possible and easy.
All that said, I try to be considerate. I don't bring a powerbook to class, I bring an ibook. If apple made a subcompact, I'd buy it immediately and start bringing that. I understand the possible noise distraction from the keys. They are not useful in all situations, like anything in math, symbolic logic, etc, that needs a proof.
However, I'm willing to bet that in coming years you will see more of your top students using them extensively.
My stance certainly isn't antiquated, any more than my stance on powerpoint presentations, computers don't make everything better. They are good tools for very specific things, and that's it.
Your view isn't in the best interest of the students. Your view is "I don't like laptops in the classroom, so obviously no one else does." You're convincing yourself that you are helping the students out, when you are really just helping out yourself. This isn't an issue of you helping out the students. It's an issue of the 'keyboard clicking' annoying you.
What if some student learns better when using the computer to type notes? You're telling them, "Tough luck." Is that really in their best interests?
I must have missed your stance on PowerPoint presentations, but I don't see how PowerPoint presentations are somehow different than prepared lecture slides (transparencies) on an overhead projector. It's just now on a computer so you can easily make changes to it (make a correction right in class and have it saved for when you use that presentation next time). My only problem with lecture slides or PowerPoint presentations is that professors tend to zip through them since they don't have to write down the material as they are talking about it. I've had a professor go through one slide with a whole paragraph of info in the time it took me to type one sentence of it. I write slower than I type, so imagine how much less information I could gather with a pen(cil) and paper.
With PowerPoint slides, at least they can post the lecture slides online so that students can download and print them off/use them. Now some professors tend to think this means that students won't come to class, but students' attendance isn't going to be affected by the lecture notes being online. That same professor that zipped through PowerPoint slides is the same one that refused to put things online because it would 'affect attendance.' If she had to write it all out on the board, then we would have had time to take the notes. But she would just zip through things that were important before anyone had the ability to record what it was, and she didn't understand why we had a problem with it.
You are right. Computers don't make everything automagically better, but you can't bury your head in the sand and say that "Ancient Egyptians took notes on papyrus scrolls, so you can make due with the same now-a-days" either. From the comments you've made here, I have a feeling that you're going end up as one of those professors that writes a book and then requires it for the class, even though it is irrelevant to the course and nothing from the book is being tested on.
I would have no problems with laptops in class with:
- no headphones
- a WiFi blocker in the room
- no games
The problem is, a large number of the students I've seen bring laptops to class are using them for everything *but* taking notes. They're not getting anything out of being there, and some of them *are* a distraction to other students. (Tapping your pencil in time to the music is a distraction. Wiggling in your chair while trying to play Unreal is a distraction.) I'd rather them not be there, if they're not there to pay attention or interact with the class, and are just a problem for others. Heck, I'd rather they just come and sleep. As long as they don't snore, no problem.
It's not the laptop per se, it's how it's used to try and get the attendance points, without actually having to even do the work of listening and paying attention. Welcome to public university.
From the comments you've made here, I have a feeling that you're going end up as one of those professors that writes a book and then requires it for the class, even though it is irrelevant to the course and nothing from the book is being tested on.
Heh.
I have to say I agree with Kickaha.
The truth of the matter is that it is my classroom and I set the rules, why is this so hard for you to understand?
Because, momentarily disregarding the specific issue of laptops in the classroom, the attitude you've expressed in multiple posts regarding your role as an instructor is, to put it bluntly, shitty, misguided and will certainly cause unnessary problems for students.
Because, momentarily disregarding the specific issue of laptops in the classroom, the attitude you've expressed in multiple posts regarding your role as an instructor is, to put it bluntly, shitty, misguided and will certainly cause unnessary problems for students.
Why is that so? There is no guarantee that you must be given information or be taught in the manner that best fits your comfort zone.
As a teacher, I get very tired of the mentality that we must come all the way to the student to put the information into their skulls. Sometimes learning means you better do it my way. There can be a method to the madness that the student, not being the teacher, does not understand yet.
There's a sweet spot in the middle somewhere... I will do my best to help students learn in the way they do best. I mix up my learning plan to include written, spoken, and visual aids. I mix up the homework to include a variety of types of assignments. It's more work for me, but hey, if I *can't*, then I don't know the material as well as I should.
From the other end, I expect the students to put some effort into it. Learning is work, no matter how much you look at it, and they can't expect to just sail through every class and get an A.
Part of that effort is simply being a good citizen and allowing their fellow students to have the best possible learning experience they can. Just as I wouldn't allow someone to have a tea party in the back of the classroom while I'm teaching, I'm not going to allow someone to do other distracting behaviours. It's not fair to the *other* students who are there to learn.
Typing isn't distracting, IMO. There are folks who are legitimately using their laptops to take notes. Them, I really don't have a problem with. The folks on IM, surfing, and playing games? They need to knock it off, or give up the seat to a student who might want in an otherwise closed class.
So what is your underlying method in not allowing a student to take notes in the way that works best for him/her?
This is an irrelevent argument because the best methods for some students are necessarily going to be disruptive. We teach children to take notes in ways that aren't disruptive for both the teacher's sake and their fellow student's sake.
My role as a professor is not to instill knowledge into my students, it is to teach them how to approach their own self-acquired knowledge to an absolute understanding. The specific information in the notes isn't as important as the process of logic that leads from one conclusion to the next -- information is catalogued, logic is developed.
But whatever, there is no evidence that note taking on computers is any more effective than note taking on paper. The only thing we can say for sure is that students who recopy their notes acquire a better understanding of the material, so my no laptops policy may actually benefit students who want their notes in digital format.
No offense, nick, but we are talking about university professors, not 4th grade, and we aren't talking about teachers needing to adapt their teaching styles to meet the needs of every student.
My role as a professor is not to instill knowledge into my students, it is to teach them how to approach their own self-acquired knowledge to an absolute understanding.
BS. You are there to teach me the topics and concepts of your field of expertise.
Disagreement is fine, but how can you agree with nick when he's not talking about anything relevant? We are talking about university professors and how they need to recognize their limitations. The fact is that there are already too many professors have inflated senses of self and purpose and little or no teaching skills.
Your phd in the sciences doesn't in any way give you the skills to "teach them how to approach their own self-acquired knowledge to an absolute understanding." That's a solid example of an academic with an inflated sense of self.
So what is your underlying method in not allowing a student to take notes in the way that works best for him/her?
Because outside of the university, you have to deal with information in whatever means it is given to you and not just in the manner with which you are most comfortable. Additionally, most of the time you have to use tools or processes that may not always line up with what you are most comfortable. It could be something as simple as using Windows instead of a Mac. It could be something like taking notes with pen instead of a laptop. The point of being educated is to be adaptable and able to process information in a multitude of ways.
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
No offense, nick, but we are talking about university professors, not 4th grade, and we aren't talking about teachers needing to adapt their teaching styles to meet the needs of every student.
None taken and thank you for disagreeing in a respectful tone.
While 4th grade and university aren't the same, the principles about educating should share some things in common. Think about what you are suggesting. You are giving the student the ability to say that they have a right to not learn unless they are allowed to take certain actions within the classroom to accomodate their learning style. I cannot demand to take notes on a laptop anymore than I could demand to listen to music during the lecture. More and more students are demanding these "accomodations" in order to learn.
My role as a professor is not to instill knowledge into my students, it is to teach them how to approach their own self-acquired knowledge to an absolute understanding.
I'm sorry, but that's BS. I hate to bring up the money issue again, but why should I pay a university thousands upon thousands of dollars in tuition, books, room, and board to be told that I have to teach myself and you'll be there to answer whatever questions I have. Give me a break! To use the police/taxes analogy, we don't pay taxes to have the police come out, sell us a taser gun, tell us to read the instruction manual, and then wait around for any questions.
Just like it's the police officer's job to protect us, it's YOUR job to instill YOUR knowledge and experience into your students. It's your job to prepare them for the career that they'll be facing when they graduate. Sure, maybe you use textbooks as assisting devices to accomplish that. Maybe you direct the students to run experiments to get those concepts down. In the end, however, you shouldn't leave the burden on the student. The burden is on you, and asking the students to teach themselves is a copout.
Every professor I had that shared your philosophy left me confused and frustrated. I felt like I didn't learn a damn bit of anything in their class. The profs from which I learned the most excelled at tying the reading material, lecture, class discussion, and other class elements together into concepts that made sense and were relevent to my career. I don't see your philosophy doing that.
Because outside of the university, you have to deal with information in whatever means it is given to you and not just in the manner with which you are most comfortable....The point of being educated is to be adaptable and able to process information in a multitude of ways.
I don't disagree, but your argument is hardly applicable to the laptop/notes argument. Let's face it: This world is growing increasingly digital. You can't hardly wipe your ass without a computer nowadays, so I would think professors would welcome notetaking on laptops since pretty much anything anyone will do at their job will be on a computer -- short of those typical manual labor jobs.
Example: A few months ago I took a bunch of notes on a steno pad and shared them with my boss. One of the first things she asked was, "why didn't you just do this on the computer?" Then you could edit cleanly and neatly." She then asked that I put it all into a Word outline. If I'd used a laptop in my classes, would I have done that in the first place? More likely, yes.
Students learn how to use pen and paper in grade school. Short of reinforcement exercises through high school, I don't see any practical reason why the concept of taking notes on pen and paper needs to be instilled in COLLEGE.
Jesus, I'd shoot my boss if they couldn't handle anything not in a bullet list. That's just a sign of lack of flexibility, adaptability, and well, intelligence.
To quote Handy... "READ A BOOK!"
I still say taking notes by hand is the way to go, then distill them, organize them, and put the polished product on the computer. When you're working to learn a concept, or hashing a new idea out, current applications, well, suck. Outline? Too limiting. Word processor? Don't make me laugh. Diagramming app? Too slow. Nothing beats pen and paper in my experience for just getting crap *DOWN*. You can massage it, see how it all fits together, and get it nice and neat later, on the computer.
Now for truly simplistic things, (like say social sciences (sorry!)) where it's A, then B, then C, and you're just regurgitating it for a grade, sure, a simple app might do the trick. But anything that requires abstract thinking, problem solving, or freeform design is going to suffer by being done on a laptop until the author *knows* the material. Hell, I use my laptop daily for distilling my notes into a digestible form... but I also have almost 500 pages of hand written notes in my lab books from just one project - those are for figuring things out, the computer is for presenting *the final product* in a nice form.
When you're learning something for the first time, you don't know what the final product is going to be, so selecting an app ahead of time just boxes you in to a particular mindset, and you lose flexibility.
So yeah, a laptop will do you fine in some situations... but man I'd be bored to death in those classes.
I've done the laptop route. Pencil and paper still trumps it for learning a complex subject in the first place, hands down. My dream would be to have a tablet for taking freeform notes, with delayed handwriting recognition... oh wait, I had that in my Newton. It just wasn't quite big enough. \
Comments
Originally posted by giant
Well, it is.
I sincerely doubt it, but it would be an interesting study to do. Have some students take notes with a computer and others with paper, and see who retains more, takes better notes, does better in the class, etc. I know where I'd place my bets.
But I could see it for some classes and not for others. I teach a lot of statistics, and I don't see how it could possibly be efficient there, with the current state of computers. I even teach stats in a computer room, where every student sits in front of a computer using R. But every one of them turns to paper to write down the math notation and the pictures of distributions and stuff like that. It's just so much more efficient than trying to get it into a computer correctly.
It also seems to me that, in lecture halls, the people with laptops tend to screw around more often. The tool gets in the way a lot more than paper and pencil. There are other distractions aside from computers, of course. You can doodle on your notes if you don't want to pay attention. But you can't decide on a new desktop picture, flip through 10,000 songs in iTunes, surf a billion web sites, and play Unreal Tournament.
In any case, I certainly wouldn't ban computers (and I doubt hardeehar would either). I just doubt the efficiency of using them for note-taking for most classes, given the current state of technology. And in my experience, the vast majority of students agree with me.
Originally posted by pyr3
Point taken, but I don't think that the 'I pay your salary' argument holds much water. People use it too much, and feel that they are entitled to things because they 'pay someone's salary.' (retail outlets, restaurants, government jobs, service positions, etc)
I agree with you that his stance on laptops is antiquated and misguided, but I just don't like your argument against it. Sorry.
My stance certainly isn't antiquated, any more than my stance on powerpoint presentations, computers don't make everything better. They are good tools for very specific things, and that's it.
Originally posted by CosmoNut
With all due respect, if I'm contributing to your hefty salary as a professor, I don't give a sh*t if I'm wasting your time.
I always thought it was ridiculous when my professors would dock points from our grade for low attendance. Same argument. I'm paying for the class. I'll show up when and if I please.
You, as a professor, are getting paid to teach a class that I'm paying for and then do your research and studies outside of that. But hell, most professors don't even teach their own classes anymore. They get some graduate student to do it for them. Now I'm glad I'm paying your salary to not show up to class.
Higher education is screwed up and I'm glad I'm finished with it.
How far can you take this reasoning? "I pay for this, so why should I take your exams?" If attendance is part of the grade requirement, and you don't like it, you can drop the class. But I don't see why actually attending class is such an unreasonable request to make when their job is to ensure that you get something out of the class. I personally don't give a shit, and even though class attendance is the biggest predictor of grades, I'm cynical enough that I figure if they want to "pay my salary" but flunk the class, why should I care. Maybe they're rich and this is just their way of paying taxes.
Professors don't get grad students to teach, administrators do. They love it because they don't pay them squat, and states have basically defunded public higher education over the past 25 years so they can't afford to hire professors to teach when they can have a pee-on do it for nothing.
Originally posted by BRussell
I sincerely doubt it, but it would be an interesting study to do. Have some students take notes with a computer and others with paper, and see who retains more, takes better notes, does better in the class, etc. I know where I'd place my bets.
What would that prove? Someone like me would take good notes and get an A in the class either way, but with the computer it's just far less of a PITA, more comprehensive, takes less time and ends up being more useful to me in the long run.
FWIW, from my last class this week: exactly 3598 words, not including the table of contents that mediawiki automatically generates.
But I could see it for some classes and not for others. I teach a lot of statistics, and I don't see how it could possibly be efficient there, with the current state of computers.
Understandable, and I know very little about statistics, but you never know what students are using. I use mediawiki and wiki markup makes tables, special characters, sub/superscripts, etc very easy to create very quickly for a decent typist. If you are interested, you can look up mediawiki markup details including mediawiki's TeX-based formula markup. It's relatively easy to remember markup and when using it frequently.
It also seems to me that, in lecture halls, the people with laptops tend to screw around more often.
I don't know where you teach, but both my wife and I went to Northwestern for our undergrads (incidentally, hers was in statistics) and, after asking her just now, she had the same experience as me: very few kids screwing around (none obviously screwing around on the computer) while the majority of kids were always competing to be top student.
The tool gets in the way a lot more than paper and pencil.
Like I said, in my experience it's the extreme opposite.
And in my experience, the vast majority of students agree with me.
And the reason is because they don't know how easy it can be. It seems to me that it's simply a lack of familiarity with the tools that exist. Invariably, once other students see me typing great-looking notes they figure out their own way to do it, most often using their web mail service. I've found no shortage of students interested in typing notes as soon as it occurs to them that it's possible and easy.
All that said, I try to be considerate. I don't bring a powerbook to class, I bring an ibook. If apple made a subcompact, I'd buy it immediately and start bringing that. I understand the possible noise distraction from the keys. They are not useful in all situations, like anything in math, symbolic logic, etc, that needs a proof.
However, I'm willing to bet that in coming years you will see more of your top students using them extensively.
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
My stance certainly isn't antiquated, any more than my stance on powerpoint presentations, computers don't make everything better. They are good tools for very specific things, and that's it.
Your view isn't in the best interest of the students. Your view is "I don't like laptops in the classroom, so obviously no one else does." You're convincing yourself that you are helping the students out, when you are really just helping out yourself. This isn't an issue of you helping out the students. It's an issue of the 'keyboard clicking' annoying you.
What if some student learns better when using the computer to type notes? You're telling them, "Tough luck." Is that really in their best interests?
I must have missed your stance on PowerPoint presentations, but I don't see how PowerPoint presentations are somehow different than prepared lecture slides (transparencies) on an overhead projector. It's just now on a computer so you can easily make changes to it (make a correction right in class and have it saved for when you use that presentation next time). My only problem with lecture slides or PowerPoint presentations is that professors tend to zip through them since they don't have to write down the material as they are talking about it. I've had a professor go through one slide with a whole paragraph of info in the time it took me to type one sentence of it. I write slower than I type, so imagine how much less information I could gather with a pen(cil) and paper.
With PowerPoint slides, at least they can post the lecture slides online so that students can download and print them off/use them. Now some professors tend to think this means that students won't come to class, but students' attendance isn't going to be affected by the lecture notes being online. That same professor that zipped through PowerPoint slides is the same one that refused to put things online because it would 'affect attendance.' If she had to write it all out on the board, then we would have had time to take the notes. But she would just zip through things that were important before anyone had the ability to record what it was, and she didn't understand why we had a problem with it.
You are right. Computers don't make everything automagically better, but you can't bury your head in the sand and say that "Ancient Egyptians took notes on papyrus scrolls, so you can make due with the same now-a-days" either. From the comments you've made here, I have a feeling that you're going end up as one of those professors that writes a book and then requires it for the class, even though it is irrelevant to the course and nothing from the book is being tested on.
- no headphones
- a WiFi blocker in the room
- no games
The problem is, a large number of the students I've seen bring laptops to class are using them for everything *but* taking notes. They're not getting anything out of being there, and some of them *are* a distraction to other students. (Tapping your pencil in time to the music is a distraction. Wiggling in your chair while trying to play Unreal is a distraction.) I'd rather them not be there, if they're not there to pay attention or interact with the class, and are just a problem for others. Heck, I'd rather they just come and sleep. As long as they don't snore, no problem.
It's not the laptop per se, it's how it's used to try and get the attendance points, without actually having to even do the work of listening and paying attention. Welcome to public university.
Originally posted by pyr3
From the comments you've made here, I have a feeling that you're going end up as one of those professors that writes a book and then requires it for the class, even though it is irrelevant to the course and nothing from the book is being tested on.
Heh.
I have to say I agree with Kickaha.
The truth of the matter is that it is my classroom and I set the rules, why is this so hard for you to understand?
Originally posted by giant
Because, momentarily disregarding the specific issue of laptops in the classroom, the attitude you've expressed in multiple posts regarding your role as an instructor is, to put it bluntly, shitty, misguided and will certainly cause unnessary problems for students.
Why is that so? There is no guarantee that you must be given information or be taught in the manner that best fits your comfort zone.
As a teacher, I get very tired of the mentality that we must come all the way to the student to put the information into their skulls. Sometimes learning means you better do it my way. There can be a method to the madness that the student, not being the teacher, does not understand yet.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
There can be a method to the madness that the student, not being the teacher, does not understand yet.
So what is your underlying method in not allowing a student to take notes in the way that works best for him/her?
From the other end, I expect the students to put some effort into it. Learning is work, no matter how much you look at it, and they can't expect to just sail through every class and get an A.
Part of that effort is simply being a good citizen and allowing their fellow students to have the best possible learning experience they can. Just as I wouldn't allow someone to have a tea party in the back of the classroom while I'm teaching, I'm not going to allow someone to do other distracting behaviours. It's not fair to the *other* students who are there to learn.
Typing isn't distracting, IMO. There are folks who are legitimately using their laptops to take notes. Them, I really don't have a problem with. The folks on IM, surfing, and playing games? They need to knock it off, or give up the seat to a student who might want in an otherwise closed class.
Originally posted by CosmoNut
So what is your underlying method in not allowing a student to take notes in the way that works best for him/her?
This is an irrelevent argument because the best methods for some students are necessarily going to be disruptive. We teach children to take notes in ways that aren't disruptive for both the teacher's sake and their fellow student's sake.
My role as a professor is not to instill knowledge into my students, it is to teach them how to approach their own self-acquired knowledge to an absolute understanding. The specific information in the notes isn't as important as the process of logic that leads from one conclusion to the next -- information is catalogued, logic is developed.
But whatever, there is no evidence that note taking on computers is any more effective than note taking on paper. The only thing we can say for sure is that students who recopy their notes acquire a better understanding of the material, so my no laptops policy may actually benefit students who want their notes in digital format.
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
My role as a professor is not to instill knowledge into my students, it is to teach them how to approach their own self-acquired knowledge to an absolute understanding.
BS. You are there to teach me the topics and concepts of your field of expertise.
Originally posted by giant
BS. You are there to teach me the topics and concepts of your field of expertise.
I disagree 100%.
Sorry giant, but this is the first and probably last time that I will agree with Nick and disagree completely with you.
Your phd in the sciences doesn't in any way give you the skills to "teach them how to approach their own self-acquired knowledge to an absolute understanding." That's a solid example of an academic with an inflated sense of self.
Originally posted by CosmoNut
So what is your underlying method in not allowing a student to take notes in the way that works best for him/her?
Because outside of the university, you have to deal with information in whatever means it is given to you and not just in the manner with which you are most comfortable. Additionally, most of the time you have to use tools or processes that may not always line up with what you are most comfortable. It could be something as simple as using Windows instead of a Mac. It could be something like taking notes with pen instead of a laptop. The point of being educated is to be adaptable and able to process information in a multitude of ways.
Originally posted by giant
No offense, nick, but we are talking about university professors, not 4th grade, and we aren't talking about teachers needing to adapt their teaching styles to meet the needs of every student.
None taken and thank you for disagreeing in a respectful tone.
While 4th grade and university aren't the same, the principles about educating should share some things in common. Think about what you are suggesting. You are giving the student the ability to say that they have a right to not learn unless they are allowed to take certain actions within the classroom to accomodate their learning style. I cannot demand to take notes on a laptop anymore than I could demand to listen to music during the lecture. More and more students are demanding these "accomodations" in order to learn.
Nick
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
My role as a professor is not to instill knowledge into my students, it is to teach them how to approach their own self-acquired knowledge to an absolute understanding.
I'm sorry, but that's BS. I hate to bring up the money issue again, but why should I pay a university thousands upon thousands of dollars in tuition, books, room, and board to be told that I have to teach myself and you'll be there to answer whatever questions I have. Give me a break! To use the police/taxes analogy, we don't pay taxes to have the police come out, sell us a taser gun, tell us to read the instruction manual, and then wait around for any questions.
Just like it's the police officer's job to protect us, it's YOUR job to instill YOUR knowledge and experience into your students. It's your job to prepare them for the career that they'll be facing when they graduate. Sure, maybe you use textbooks as assisting devices to accomplish that. Maybe you direct the students to run experiments to get those concepts down. In the end, however, you shouldn't leave the burden on the student. The burden is on you, and asking the students to teach themselves is a copout.
Every professor I had that shared your philosophy left me confused and frustrated. I felt like I didn't learn a damn bit of anything in their class. The profs from which I learned the most excelled at tying the reading material, lecture, class discussion, and other class elements together into concepts that made sense and were relevent to my career. I don't see your philosophy doing that.
Sorry to break away from the thread topic.
Originally posted by trumptman
Because outside of the university, you have to deal with information in whatever means it is given to you and not just in the manner with which you are most comfortable....The point of being educated is to be adaptable and able to process information in a multitude of ways.
I don't disagree, but your argument is hardly applicable to the laptop/notes argument. Let's face it: This world is growing increasingly digital. You can't hardly wipe your ass without a computer nowadays, so I would think professors would welcome notetaking on laptops since pretty much anything anyone will do at their job will be on a computer -- short of those typical manual labor jobs.
Example: A few months ago I took a bunch of notes on a steno pad and shared them with my boss. One of the first things she asked was, "why didn't you just do this on the computer?" Then you could edit cleanly and neatly." She then asked that I put it all into a Word outline. If I'd used a laptop in my classes, would I have done that in the first place? More likely, yes.
Students learn how to use pen and paper in grade school. Short of reinforcement exercises through high school, I don't see any practical reason why the concept of taking notes on pen and paper needs to be instilled in COLLEGE.
To quote Handy... "READ A BOOK!"
I still say taking notes by hand is the way to go, then distill them, organize them, and put the polished product on the computer. When you're working to learn a concept, or hashing a new idea out, current applications, well, suck. Outline? Too limiting. Word processor? Don't make me laugh. Diagramming app? Too slow. Nothing beats pen and paper in my experience for just getting crap *DOWN*. You can massage it, see how it all fits together, and get it nice and neat later, on the computer.
Now for truly simplistic things, (like say social sciences (sorry!)) where it's A, then B, then C, and you're just regurgitating it for a grade, sure, a simple app might do the trick. But anything that requires abstract thinking, problem solving, or freeform design is going to suffer by being done on a laptop until the author *knows* the material. Hell, I use my laptop daily for distilling my notes into a digestible form... but I also have almost 500 pages of hand written notes in my lab books from just one project - those are for figuring things out, the computer is for presenting *the final product* in a nice form.
When you're learning something for the first time, you don't know what the final product is going to be, so selecting an app ahead of time just boxes you in to a particular mindset, and you lose flexibility.
So yeah, a laptop will do you fine in some situations... but man I'd be bored to death in those classes.
I've done the laptop route. Pencil and paper still trumps it for learning a complex subject in the first place, hands down. My dream would be to have a tablet for taking freeform notes, with delayed handwriting recognition... oh wait, I had that in my Newton. It just wasn't quite big enough.