healer you're scaring me with your insistence on using sudo. I recommend that you stay within the GUI until you get familiar with the Mac OS. Then go ahead and explore Unix and the terminal. Most everything you need to do can safely be done from the GUI. The only times I come across sudo commands is in instructions on how to hack the system. And from your responses your not ready for that.
You mean XEROX pioneered it, and Apple just came to the market first due to a smart "trick" they did; pay XEROX $1 mil. to "study" the GUI...
...and go home and copy it.
Yes, they paid Xerox a what was then a handsome sum for access to the ideas behind a technology that Xerox had no real interest in bringing to market, the idjits. (The Star was made, but Xerox didn't do squat to actually market it.)
So Apple wasn't even first... they were just the ones who saw the possibilities, and paid Xerox what was then considered a ridiculous sum for not even code or technical help.
I'm sure the guys at PARC were alternately ticked and happy that while their company wasn't the one getting the credit, at least it hadn't been buried and forgotten.
There are two varieties of MacOS X: MacOS X and MacOS X Server. The former is what ships with every user-oriented Mac, the latter is what ships with the servers. You have the former. It's all included, there is no multiple-layering of products ala MS.
The OS is arranged like so, on a default install:
GUI (Aqua)
-----------------
MacOS X libraries (Cocoa and Carbon)
-----------------
UNIX (BSD-based*, named Darwin)
When you work with GUI apps, you're at the top level.
When you're programming your own GUI apps, you're working with the middle level.
When you open a Terminal window, you're diving straight down to the bottom Darwin level. Lots of power, but lots of power to screw yourself over FAST if you don't know what you're doing. Enabling root makes that possibility infinitely worse... there are a lot of safeguards in place, but root bypasses *all* of them. sudo lets you bypass them judiciously, only when you need to. Using root throws them all out the window en masse, no possibility for recovery if you mistype something innocently.
So yes, every installation has the UNIX level - it's what makes it work at all.
I second the advice to get a couple of books and immerse yourself in it starting at the top, and enjoy. There's some cool stuff in there.
* Yes Gene, Mach kernel, blah blah blah, this is simpler, and googling for BSD might get him something useful in the Terminal.
Wow, some serious mac os misinformation in this thread -- Gene Clean I blame you.
The mac OS and GUI is not based on the Xerox approach -- it was an original creation. MS Windows 95 - XP is modeled on the mac OS.
"For more than a decade now, I've listened to the debate about where the Macintosh user interface came from. Most people assume it came directly from Xerox, after Steve Jobs went to visit Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center). This "fact" is reported over and over, by people who don't know better (and also by people who should!). Unfortunately, it just isn't true - there are some similarities between the Apple interface and the various interfaces on Xerox systems, but the differences are substantial."
There are two varieties of MacOS X: MacOS X and MacOS X Server. The former is what ships with every user-oriented Mac, the latter is what ships with the servers. You have the former. It's all included, there is no multiple-layering of products ala MS.
The OS is arranged like so, on a default install:
GUI (Aqua)
-----------------
MacOS X libraries (Cocoa and Carbon)
-----------------
UNIX (BSD-based*, named Darwin)
When you work with GUI apps, you're at the top level.
When you're programming your own GUI apps, you're working with the middle level.
When you open a Terminal window, you're diving straight down to the bottom Darwin level. Lots of power, but lots of power to screw yourself over FAST if you don't know what you're doing. Enabling root makes that possibility infinitely worse... there are a lot of safeguards in place, but root bypasses *all* of them. sudo lets you bypass them judiciously, only when you need to. Using root throws them all out the window en masse, no possibility for recovery if you mistype something innocently.
So yes, every installation has the UNIX level - it's what makes it work at all.
I second the advice to get a couple of books and immerse yourself in it starting at the top, and enjoy. There's some cool stuff in there.
* Yes Gene, Mach kernel, blah blah blah, this is simpler, and googling for BSD might get him something useful in the Terminal.
Thanks for your advice. I will not "tamper" with the Darwin stuff at this stage. I will focus on getting familiar with all other aspects of the operating system first. I used to work with various Unix systems and I play with Red Hat Linux at present. I believe I know the power and possible peril of the command line interaction. Anyway, I have things of higher priority to take care of at the moment.
OMG this thread is a train wreck and now I am going to make it even worse.
Quote:
Originally posted by mugwump
Wow, some serious mac os misinformation in this thread -- Gene Clean I blame you.
The mac OS and GUI is not based on the Xerox approach -- it was an original creation. MS Windows 95 - XP is modeled on the mac OS.
"For more than a decade now, I've listened to the debate about where the Macintosh user interface came from. Most people assume it came directly from Xerox, after Steve Jobs went to visit Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center). This "fact" is reported over and over, by people who don't know better (and also by people who should!). Unfortunately, it just isn't true - there are some similarities between the Apple interface and the various interfaces on Xerox systems, but the differences are substantial."
How closely two objects are related depend widely on interpretation. But you can´t truthfully claim that Windows was a "copy" of Mac OS and then claim Mac OS wasn´t even more a "copy" of the OS developed at PARC. In an age where the only version of GUI ever made was the one Douglas Englebart presented in 1968 Mac OS and Smalltalk shared so many properties that you simply cannot seperate them.
Look at Raskins visions for a more "humane" GUI that he already had when he lead the Mac team, look at Douglas Englebarts visions and look at Smalltalk. They were the three visions of a GUI known to the Mac team and then look where they ended. If you claim that the didn´t lift a substantial portion of the GUI from PARC then I don´t know what.
Not that there is anything wrong with "borrowing" heavily from others. Remember Steves words: "Good artists copy, great artists steal.". But it was without doubt PARC that split the atom first with the useful GUI and without them we would probably have ended up with something more like Raskins vision.
It is my understanding that XEROX had developed Ethernet, object-oriented programming (not sure if it was a language or methodology), and the GUI w/mouse. When Steve toured the place the GUI caught his fancy and things progressed from there.
I thought I would get in without enabling anything. When I tried I typed "su" and it asked for password. I didn't go further from there as I don't need the root access at this time but I would like to know for sure just in case I need it one day. As a matter of satisfying my curiosity, I might go in later to see how it works as compared with other Unix or Linux systems.
"su" is substitute user. If you just type "su" then it assumes you want to access root. If you type something like "su healer" or "su some_other_account" it'll log that shell into the other account so you can do commands whith the other accounts permissions.
"su" is substitute user. If you just type "su" then it assumes you want to access root. If you type something like "su healer" or "su some_other_account" it'll log that shell into the other account so you can do commands whith the other accounts permissions.
I did just that though I didn't actually type in the password. That's why I thought there was no restriction at all . As I could go that far, I have presumed that the root access is not disabled by default as the book I read told me before.
Comments
Originally posted by aresee
healer you're scaring me with your insistence on using sudo. I recommend that you stay within the GUI until you get familiar with the Mac OS. Then go ahead and explore Unix and the terminal. Most everything you need to do can safely be done from the GUI. The only times I come across sudo commands is in instructions on how to hack the system. And from your responses your not ready for that.
Three books that you might find useful are:
Switching to the Mac: The Missing Manual, Tiger http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059...books&v=glance
Mac OS X: The Missing Manual, Tiger http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059...books&v=glance
Mac OS X Tiger for Unix Geeks http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/059...lance&n=283155
Thank you, I will follow your advice.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
You mean XEROX pioneered it, and Apple just came to the market first due to a smart "trick" they did; pay XEROX $1 mil. to "study" the GUI...
...and go home and copy it.
Yes, they paid Xerox a what was then a handsome sum for access to the ideas behind a technology that Xerox had no real interest in bringing to market, the idjits. (The Star was made, but Xerox didn't do squat to actually market it.)
So Apple wasn't even first... they were just the ones who saw the possibilities, and paid Xerox what was then considered a ridiculous sum for not even code or technical help.
I'm sure the guys at PARC were alternately ticked and happy that while their company wasn't the one getting the credit, at least it hadn't been buried and forgotten.
ANYway...
There are two varieties of MacOS X: MacOS X and MacOS X Server. The former is what ships with every user-oriented Mac, the latter is what ships with the servers. You have the former. It's all included, there is no multiple-layering of products ala MS.
The OS is arranged like so, on a default install:
GUI (Aqua)
-----------------
MacOS X libraries (Cocoa and Carbon)
-----------------
UNIX (BSD-based*, named Darwin)
When you work with GUI apps, you're at the top level.
When you're programming your own GUI apps, you're working with the middle level.
When you open a Terminal window, you're diving straight down to the bottom Darwin level. Lots of power, but lots of power to screw yourself over FAST if you don't know what you're doing. Enabling root makes that possibility infinitely worse... there are a lot of safeguards in place, but root bypasses *all* of them. sudo lets you bypass them judiciously, only when you need to. Using root throws them all out the window en masse, no possibility for recovery if you mistype something innocently.
So yes, every installation has the UNIX level - it's what makes it work at all.
I second the advice to get a couple of books and immerse yourself in it starting at the top, and enjoy.
* Yes Gene, Mach kernel, blah blah blah, this is simpler, and googling for BSD might get him something useful in the Terminal.
The mac OS and GUI is not based on the Xerox approach -- it was an original creation. MS Windows 95 - XP is modeled on the mac OS.
"For more than a decade now, I've listened to the debate about where the Macintosh user interface came from. Most people assume it came directly from Xerox, after Steve Jobs went to visit Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center). This "fact" is reported over and over, by people who don't know better (and also by people who should!). Unfortunately, it just isn't true - there are some similarities between the Apple interface and the various interfaces on Xerox systems, but the differences are substantial."
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py...d_Progress.txt
Originally posted by Kickaha
healer:
There are two varieties of MacOS X: MacOS X and MacOS X Server. The former is what ships with every user-oriented Mac, the latter is what ships with the servers. You have the former. It's all included, there is no multiple-layering of products ala MS.
The OS is arranged like so, on a default install:
GUI (Aqua)
-----------------
MacOS X libraries (Cocoa and Carbon)
-----------------
UNIX (BSD-based*, named Darwin)
When you work with GUI apps, you're at the top level.
When you're programming your own GUI apps, you're working with the middle level.
When you open a Terminal window, you're diving straight down to the bottom Darwin level. Lots of power, but lots of power to screw yourself over FAST if you don't know what you're doing. Enabling root makes that possibility infinitely worse... there are a lot of safeguards in place, but root bypasses *all* of them. sudo lets you bypass them judiciously, only when you need to. Using root throws them all out the window en masse, no possibility for recovery if you mistype something innocently.
So yes, every installation has the UNIX level - it's what makes it work at all.
I second the advice to get a couple of books and immerse yourself in it starting at the top, and enjoy.
* Yes Gene, Mach kernel, blah blah blah, this is simpler, and googling for BSD might get him something useful in the Terminal.
Thanks for your advice. I will not "tamper" with the Darwin stuff at this stage. I will focus on getting familiar with all other aspects of the operating system first. I used to work with various Unix systems and I play with Red Hat Linux at present. I believe I know the power and possible peril of the command line interaction. Anyway, I have things of higher priority to take care of at the moment.
Originally posted by mugwump
Wow, some serious mac os misinformation in this thread -- Gene Clean I blame you.
The mac OS and GUI is not based on the Xerox approach -- it was an original creation. MS Windows 95 - XP is modeled on the mac OS.
"For more than a decade now, I've listened to the debate about where the Macintosh user interface came from. Most people assume it came directly from Xerox, after Steve Jobs went to visit Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center). This "fact" is reported over and over, by people who don't know better (and also by people who should!). Unfortunately, it just isn't true - there are some similarities between the Apple interface and the various interfaces on Xerox systems, but the differences are substantial."
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py...d_Progress.txt
How closely two objects are related depend widely on interpretation. But you can´t truthfully claim that Windows was a "copy" of Mac OS and then claim Mac OS wasn´t even more a "copy" of the OS developed at PARC. In an age where the only version of GUI ever made was the one Douglas Englebart presented in 1968 Mac OS and Smalltalk shared so many properties that you simply cannot seperate them.
Look at Raskins visions for a more "humane" GUI that he already had when he lead the Mac team, look at Douglas Englebarts visions and look at Smalltalk. They were the three visions of a GUI known to the Mac team and then look where they ended. If you claim that the didn´t lift a substantial portion of the GUI from PARC then I don´t know what.
And www.folklore.org isn´t exactly a non-biased source.
Not that there is anything wrong with "borrowing" heavily from others. Remember Steves words: "Good artists copy, great artists steal.". But it was without doubt PARC that split the atom first with the useful GUI and without them we would probably have ended up with something more like Raskins vision.
Originally posted by Anders
we would probably have ended up with something more like Raskins vision.
This made my sphincter clench.
*shudder*
Originally posted by Kickaha
This made my sphincter clench.
*shudder*
Exactly. So I ask all of you, next time you pass a photo copier, fold your hands and thank its maker for the post-CLI word we now live in.
Originally posted by healer
I thought I would get in without enabling anything. When I tried I typed "su" and it asked for password. I didn't go further from there as I don't need the root access at this time but I would like to know for sure just in case I need it one day. As a matter of satisfying my curiosity, I might go in later to see how it works as compared with other Unix or Linux systems.
"su" is substitute user. If you just type "su" then it assumes you want to access root. If you type something like "su healer" or "su some_other_account" it'll log that shell into the other account so you can do commands whith the other accounts permissions.
Originally posted by Anders
Exactly. So I ask all of you, next time you pass a photo copier, fold your hands and thank its maker for the post-CLI word we now live in.
I'm not giving Canon that much credit.
Originally posted by Outsider
"su" is substitute user. If you just type "su" then it assumes you want to access root. If you type something like "su healer" or "su some_other_account" it'll log that shell into the other account so you can do commands whith the other accounts permissions.
I did just that though I didn't actually type in the password. That's why I thought there was no restriction at all . As I could go that far, I have presumed that the root access is not disabled by default as the book I read told me before.
Originally posted by Kickaha
* Yes Gene, Mach kernel, blah blah blah, this is simpler, and googling for BSD might get him something useful in the Terminal.
That's true, but I think he should stick to the GUI for a while, until he gets more familiar with the entire concept of commands, BSD, etc.
Do you agree?
Originally posted by Gene Clean
That's true, but I think he should stick to the GUI for a while, until he gets more familiar with the entire concept of commands, BSD, etc.
Do you agree?
Hmm, let me think...
I second the advice to get a couple of books and immerse yourself in it starting at the top
Looks like.