There are always two types of buyers. First, you have the people who need to buy a machine 'yesterday' and spend the money on whatever the top of the line machine is. Second, you have the people who may or may not need a new machine but are always waiting for that one feature or price point that's going to push them into buying a new machine.
The first group of people are the people we don't see on AppleInsider very often. They are the ones that go to the Apple retail stores or buy a machine off of the Apple Website without coming to a rumor site to see when the machine they are buying might become obsolete. They need a new computer so they go out and buy one, satisfied in what they are buying.
The second group is made up of the people who come to AppleInsider every few hours looking for more information about new Macs. They want to be as up to date as possible on everything that may or may not be included in the next iBook or PowerMac, what the situation is at the assembly line, if Apple has discounted the MacMini by $50 in order to clear them out of the inventory for a revision next month, etc. They are the people that want to buy a new machine the minute it is announced, sometimes ordering on the telephone before Steve Jobs has even finished his sentence describing the new Mac.
To the people buying a new Power Mac G5 tower now, it's still an excellent machine. My brother bought a Power Mac G5 last year which is now equivilent to the current low end Power Mac G5 (Dual 2 GHz G5) and it is still amazingly fast. To the people who need to run Classic apps, this G5 line is going to last for quite some time and I doubt they will have any quick buyer's remorse as the Intel Power Macs aren't able to run Classic apps (at least not yet).
From what we have seen out of the MacBook Pro and the iMac, we can only assume that the first Power Macs running off of Intel chips will be very impressive. But after seeing so many top end products released, I can easily see people saying that the Intel Power Macs are good but they are waiting for a certain feature that may be in the pipeline or that they never buy 'Revision A' products, etc.
It's always a waiting game for the latest and greatest (and beyond). If you need a new computer now, the Quad G5 is still an amazing machine. If you don't need a new computer now, we should be looking at Intel Power Macs in 4-5 months.
No. It rests on the premise that when people buy computers they generally want more (future functionality) not less (past functionality. Boot camp is the tip of an iceberg (albeit a big tip) that most computer buyers can easily get their minds around.
Really and how many computers have you sold directly to clients in your lifetime?
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If one has $2500 to spend on a computer today, the choice is clear. Wait
No the clear choice is to properly qualify the customer and find out what their priorities are. You then weigh the features/benefits and speeds and feeds. You don't pull a rabbit out the hat until you know that's what the customer wants. Sorry sales 101.
As I?ve written in other forums, with the introduction of Boot Camp the PowerMac G5 is now nearly worthless.
So by your logic. My Dual G5 that I use to to edit pictures in Photoshop, edit video in Final Cut Pro, create DVD's in DVD Studio Pro, and burn DVD's in Toast is now worthless because it cannot dual boot Windows.
And I don't need or want to dual boot Windows.
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If one has $2500 to spend on a computer today, the choice is clear. Wait
With that attitude one could be waiting in perpetuity. There will always be the next computer with the newest, fanciest, fastest something.
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They are the ones that go to the Apple retail stores or buy a machine off of the Apple Website without coming to a rumor site to see when the machine they are buying might become obsolete. They need a new computer so they go out and buy one, satisfied in what they are buying.
Obsolete is a relative term. One could argue that no computer is ever obsolete for someone's needs.
There are still plenty of 1999 iMacs out there. Used mostly by people for word processing and sending e-mails. Which is what most people are doing on their computers and is all many people need to do.
Everyone's needs are different. There are users with g4 towers who run CS2. What should they do? Get a new mac tower and run cs2 in rosetta? Sure cs3 will be coming out next year but can pros, who do that for a living, go 6-12 months working in rosetta? A quad g5 is still their best bet. I agree that if you can wait to wait. When cs3 is UB then ppc macs will be obsolete.
I agree, everyone?s needs are different, but in your scenario pro users who need to be running those applications should already have a G5. Those machines have been out for some time, so for a pro user to still be using a G4 at this late date doesn?t make much sense, especially when pro users can write the purchase of a new machine off their taxes with the flick of a keystroke.
Everyone's needs are different. There are users with g4 towers who run CS2. What should they do? Get a new mac tower and run cs2 in rosetta? Sure cs3 will be coming out next year but can pros, who do that for a living, go 6-12 months working in rosetta? A quad g5 is still their best bet. I agree that if you can wait to wait. When cs3 is UB then ppc macs will be obsolete.
Actually, it would be interesting to determine what speed Mac is comparable to running CS3 under Rosetta. This way, if you have say an old G4 PowerMac, you'll know if a Core Duo iMac will outperform it. Sure, a Quad G5 will beat the pants of it, but if you want a more future proof interim machine, the iMac might be the way to go.
If you're a Pro user and are used to upgrades almost yearly, getting a G5 tower may make sense. But then again, these types of users probably already have one. I have a Rev A G5 Duallie and I don't see replacing it for a while. Although I might just get a MacBook Pro and new display (my current one has ADC) and that will tide me over until the new towers are out.
The biggest drawback of the new crop of Intel Macs is the 2 GB memory limit.
So you say the $5,000 + investment in soft- and hardware my boss did last november is obsolete this time next year?
instead of a $600 update to CS3.
I don't think so.
I can buy 1 copy of CS3 and use it for both my iMac G5 and "soon-to-be-purchased" i or Mac Book (Pro) thanks to Universal Binaries.
I can use my iMac for a couple of years from now without running the risk to be totally excluded from the latest greatest.
Just like this 6 year old Pismo, I typing on right now, runs osX 10.4.6 without a problem.(okay, it won't swallow CS2 but I don't want to pay another $800 for a soon-to-be-obsolete software product anyway)
So you say the $5,000 + investment in soft- and hardware my boss did last november is obsolete this time next year?
instead of a $600 update to CS3.
I don't think so.
I can buy 1 copy of CS3 and use it for both my iMac G5 and "soon-to-be-purchased" i or Mac Book (Pro) thanks to Universal Binaries.
I can use my iMac for a couple of years from now without running the risk to be totally excluded from the latest greatest.
Just like this 6 year old Pismo, I typing on right now, runs osX 10.4.6 without a problem.(okay, it won't swallow CS2 but I don't want to pay another $800 for a soon-to-be-obsolete software product anyway)
With the double barrel Boot Camp 'dual boot X and XP' solution from Apple followed up quickly with Parallels and their 'run just about any x86 OS in a virtualized session, including XP while OS X is still running for $49.95' if anyone here doesn't think the 'value' of any PowerPC based machine Apple is still shipping didn't plummet by AT LEAST a few hundred bucks per model (and I think I'm being quite kind with that figure) you're just diluting yourself.
This one two punch has almost every forum poster I've read here on AI wanting get their hands on a new Core Duo based machine.
Hell, before all this I was actually considering getting myself a G5 PowerMac (if the prices did drop just a bit) but now... I gotta tell ya... I think I'm gonna make the jump to the 20" iMac now... Have fun for the summer playing around with all the stuff the new machines are offering and then gift it to my wife this winter when I'm guessing the new pro machines get turned loose.
Now if I were a graphics professional I'd feel somewhat different and wouldn't do what I'm planing on doing but still I'd sure as hell feel the G5 systems are worth far less than they were only 48 short hours ago.
It's kind of amazing to think that many of us have spent so many years only owning Macs and in the last 2 days, a large part of the 'Mac Community' has not only embraced the idea of running Windows on the new Intel Macs, but actually want to run out and buy a copy of Windows.
As I said in the Poll thread in General Discussion, the only reason I own a PC right now is because my college required me to run some Windows specific development apps. I'm graduating in less than 2 months (provided I survive my final math class) and beyond that, I don't see my PC getting a lot of use. If I bought a new Intel Mac right now, I don't think I would install Windows on it.
Parallels is interesting, there's no denying that. But it's basically a speedier Virtual PC from what I've read. It's still not able to recognize the processor, graphics card, etc. The data sheet says it 'virtualizes a full set of the standard hardware including an Intel Pentium II, a Generic Motherboard, RAM up to 1.5 GB, and VGA and SVGA with VESA 3.0 support'.
I imagine that a virtual machine like that will run less intensive Windows programs without issue. People who are looking to run PC games or more CPU intense apps are going to need to actually boot into Windows.
I guess people are excited about now having the 'option' to run Windows on their Intel Macs. It's still an expensive option to have. Let's say that you went to a store tonight like CompUSA to buy a new MacBook Pro and also a copy of Windows. The cost of the MacBook Pro is $2500 and you'd spend $300 on top of that for a copy of Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 2. If you decided to go the Virtual Machine route, you'd have to throw in another $50 for that software. Throw in sales tax if applicable in your state. I only mention CompUSA as the retail store because I don't think we'll see Apple Stores selling copies of Windows XP any time soon (at least I hope not).
I'll never forget Macworld Boston in 1997 (the last Macworld Boston that Steve Jobs attended). Gates got up on the big screen and to the Mac faithful, Apple had seemingly sold it's soul to the devil. I remember my Dad saying that it was only a matter of time before Macs would be running Windows just like everyone else. For all of these years, I'd shrugged it off, thinking that it would never happen. Even when the Intel Macs came out and it was likely that someone would hack them to get Windows to run, I never thought it would be a mainstream option. Now we have Apple making it easy to boot Windows on their hardware, I never thought I'd see that day.
Think about why we were originally happy with the decision to move from PPC to x86. Most of us were (and still are) very excited about the prospect of faster Macs now that the chain to the IBM/Motrola anchor was finally broken. No longer would we have to worry about Apple needing to bump the speed of their machines *down* so they are able to ship orders. No longer would we have to worry about Apple continuing to stick G4 chips into their Pro laptop line. No longer would we have that feeling in the pit of our stomachs that while the IBM/Motorola roadmaps always looked good, they wouldn't be able to deliver yet again.
But we also need to remember that we are Mac users for a reason. We need to remember that there is *nothing* wrong with the current Power Mac lineup. Future apps are going to be Universal and will run on these G5s and they will likely run very well. The ability to boot into Windows is a novelty which will most likely be used by switchers rather than existing Mac owners. The question you need to ask yourselves is this: Is the ability to run one or two apps that aren't available for Mac OS X worth $300-$350, 20 GBs of my hard drive, and the hassles of maintaining a clean Windows environment?
Undoubtedly, there are people who will answer 'Yes' to that question and they will jump at the opportunity. But for most of us, if we *really* needed a Windows machine that badly at some point, we would already have a Windows box.
Ultimately, Apple is in the business of pushing Mac OS X. I don't believe that Apple will abandon the Power PC Mac owners any time soon. Remember that Apple still supports Mac OS X 10.4 on Power Mac G3 towers from 1998. That's a heck of a long life for a machine. Heck, my Pismo (PowerBook G3/500) would still be supported if I hadn't had that upgrade from Apple after it took one too many trips back to customer support.
These G5s are still very competitive machines, we can't forget that fact. Apple says that the Core Duo iMacs are 2x faster than the iMac G5s that preceded them. I'm also sure that we'll see that the next line of Power Macs with Intel chips will also be quite a bit faster than these Power Mac G5s. But that doesn't mean that these G5s don't outperform the current Core Duo iMacs and we've still got quite a bit of time before these Power Macs are EOL'd. Plus, the Yonah chips in the iMacs aren't 64 Bit like the G5s, kind of a step backwards, we'll need to see what replaces the G5 in the Power Mac line, I would assume it would have to be 64 Bit so Apple can ship machines with more than 2 GBs of RAM.
New Macs are always going to be faster than old Macs and if you want to wait for the next Mac, you can. But that doesn't mean that the current crop of Power Macs are 'worthless'. The only thing that could make them 'worthless' would be if Apple didn't have developers make Universal apps that run on both PPC and Intel. Since there's no option to make a program just for Mac OS X on Intel, I don't think people have any reason to worry. If you don't plan on running Windows, still need Classic support, or just require a machine immediately, these G5s are still a good buy.
I don't know one person that still uses a classic app. Not in at least 2 years.
I use Black Night every day to monitor an old non-linear edit system. Black Night only works in Classic. It connects through a USB to serial converter. I've tried various OSX terminal emulation apps and they won't connect.
f you still want a G5 after the new ProMac is released good for you, and I'm sure the prices will drop to a cheaper point after the intel versions are released.
They are really trying to push the new intel ProMac line, and this will be the first real showcase of the fruits that intel can provide them. AFAIC The iMac, and the Mac Book Pro were merely to stabilize them on intel in the minds of the consumer base. The Pro Mac will be their first great achievement using x86 processors.
There will still be plenty of people that will buy G5's after the intel ProMac's come out, but they made this transition for this machine and they want you and everyone to know about it, [/B]
f you still want a G5 after the new ProMac is released good for you, and I'm sure the prices will drop to a cheaper point after the intel versions are released.
They are really trying to push the new intel ProMac line, and this will be the first real showcase of the fruits that intel can provide them. AFAIC The iMac, and the Mac Book Pro were merely to stabilize them on intel in the minds of the consumer base. The Pro Mac will be their first great achievement using x86 processors.
There will still be plenty of people that will buy G5's after the intel ProMac's come out, but they made this transition for this machine and they want you and everyone to know about it, [/B]
i just bought powermac dual core 2ghz 2 month ago ...and kinda regret it, T T if only i know this sooner, i would wait it for the intel ver..damn...i waited so long for the dual core, but technology is just passing me by...
Windows is the tip of the iceberg. The real point here that the next PowerMacs will have the capacity to do things that G5s can?t. A serious line is being drawn in the sand between the Macs of today and the Macs of tomorrow; you can buy the future or the past. Choose. btw, Classic emulation may yet come to the Mactels.
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Originally posted by Fran441
still need Classic support,
A shrinking community, at best, and getting smaller every day.
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Originally posted by Fran441
or just require a machine immediately,
An imagined consumer if ever there was one. Anyone who needs a machine ?immediately? already has one or regular access to one.
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Originally posted by Fran441
these G5s are still a good buy.
A fool and his money are soon parted. I suggest you G5 owners find a sucker to unload your machines on fast because every day from now on your pool of interested buyers will be ever smaller. I see the list of G5s on ebay has ballooned in the last 48 hours.
You might want to look into SheepShaver or BasiliskII for classic emulation on the new machines. I don't know much about it but it may be a viable solution for the intelMacs.
A couple of points: When you write something off on your taxes it just means that income you spent is not taxable. So if you buy a $3000 machine and your tax rate is 33% (for instance) you just pay $1000 less on your taxes. Your still paying $2000 for your computer after all is said and done.
It's silly to say that someone is a "sucker" for buying a G5 now. They are still the fastest machines available for running Mac software. Yes soon, they will be slower than the new machines and those new machines will be slower than the ones that come after. I can think of 4 good reasons to buy a tower now. I can also think of good reasons to wait. It's crazy to pass judgement on everyone else's choices without knowledge of their situation.
I suggest you G5 owners find a sucker to unload your machines on fast because every day from now on your pool of interested buyers will be ever smaller. I see the list of G5s on ebay has ballooned in the last 48 hours
Nowhere in my posts have I mentioned that I own one of these G5s. I don't. I own a Titanium PowerBook G4. I've also never sold any of my Macs before, they've always served me very well and are given to other family members when I upgrade.
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Windows is the tip of the iceberg. The real point here that the next PowerMacs will have the capacity to do things that G5s can?t. A serious line is being drawn in the sand between the Macs of today and the Macs of tomorrow; you can buy the future or the past. Choose. btw, Classic emulation may yet come to the Mactels.
This isn't just about Windows? O rly?
What can the new Intel iMac do *better* than the current Power Mac G5s? Take some time to think it over if you need to.
The current top of the line Power Mac G5s are faster than the current Core Duo iMacs in running Univeral apps. Yes, the new iMacs stack up very well against the Power Macs but the towers still have the advantage when you need to upgrade a component of your machine. You can put in a newer Graphics card, add up to 16 GB of RAM, and you can always add another PCI card, extra hard drives, etc. Not only that, you get to pick your own monitor.
These Power Macs are going to run Universal apps indefinitely. We know Apple won't abandon the people who buy these Power Mac G5s, they still support the current version of Mac OS X on machines released in the late 90s!
So besides the fact that the next Power Macs will be faster than the current Power Macs (something which is always the case with new machines, PPC or not), what advantages do they have *other* than the fact that you can run Windows if you want to? I can't think of *any* good reasons right now.
Why? I just bought a new G5 PM (dual core 2GHz) this week.
I could get the EDU discount so that helps somewhat.
Now it has 2.5gb of RAM, the 160gb boot drive, and a 300gb second drive for video.
Why would I do this when the new Intel pro machines are imminent?
Simple, I needed it now, and am not particularly fond of rev A machines.
I also have an iMac G4 and iMac G5, but my main machine for editing has been a PB G4 (1.5) w/ 20" Cinema. I recently upgraded to Aperture and editing HDV (vs DV) and the PowerBook ground to a halt. The iMacs (even the G5) wont even run Aperture.
Beyond that the Intel stuff so far is VERY quick from what I can see.
But I dont see the need to rush out and get the Rev A machines of this transition (I came thought the 68K to PPC transition).
Also have you seen the inside of the Intel iMac? What happened to Apples becoming beautiful on the outside and inside?
My new PM is very fast for my needs. Eats, edits, and plays HDV like butter.
I can upgrade the vid cards over the next year or so as I need to. Shortly I will probably get a Mac Book Pro to replace my PB G4, but this PM will be my video station from sometime to come.
Did I mention how goreous it is inside and out - work of art, IMHO.
Last of the line, end of an era, and I'm proud to have it.
The difference some of you guys have to realize are that many of us are not hobbyists or gamers. We use our Macs for business and to get work done, as in we actually are productive and make money using them. It doesn't matter how new the computer is or matter what wizz bang features the next version will have. All that matters is can I get what I need to get done with what I have.
People who actually are productive and make money using their Macs will fully use the investment in their current computer until it will no longer make them as much money. This group won't replace what they have until the new computer proves more productive and worth the investment.
They will pay $2500 for a MacBook Pro or $3000 for a new Power Mac. Because this machine is a business investment. Its job is to work and make money.
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The real point here that the next PowerMacs will have the capacity to do things that G5s can?t.
You aren't saying anything new this is always the case. The same goes for the PowerMacs after that.
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Anyone who needs a machine ?immediately? already has one or regular access to one.
You seem to literally expect people should stop buying PowerMac G5 today and literally wait for some distant Intel PowerMac.
If most people really did stop buying Macs today to wait for something tomorrow Apple Computer stock and profit would take a serious fall. Leaving a weaker and less effective Apple Computer tomorrow.
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A fool and his money are soon parted. I suggest you G5 owners find a sucker to unload your machines on fast because every day from now on your pool of interested buyers will be ever smaller.
The difference some of you guys have to realize are that many of us are not hobbyists or gamers. We use our Macs for business and to get work done, as in we actually are productive and make money using them. It doesn't matter how new the computer is or matter what wizz bang features the next version will have. All that matters is can I get what I need to get done with what I have.
Ah that's where you're wrong (in my case anyway) While I do have my hobbyists hat and when posting here that's usually the hat I wear but I too make money while using my Mac... And more to the point support other mac users in the research & scientific fields.
On one hand I'd never even DREAM of recommending a Core Duo based mac for them (well maybe for their administrative assistant but thats about it) *but* on the other-hand I've gotta be ready for the time in the not too distant future where I WILL be in a position to recommend a new Intel mac (once the high end desktops arrive and their core apps they use have been recompiled as UB) so you see I REALLY need to up to speed with the new Machines prior to me being able to recommend them any support person worth their salt will I'm sure agree.
So no, I'm not a Photoshop, graphic artist, motion picture person, etc etc etc but I too need to make my living with the Mac and as I said before... I was almost ready to pull the trigger on a desktop G5 but with the latest news I can see now more than ever NOT having a Core Duo machine is really a mistake. I know my researchers and once they know they can run those annoying but needed windows apps every once in a while without having to shell out for a dedicated intel/windows box. They'll be chomping at the bit to get one. (until I explain that universal binaries will be a must before they make the jump - that and the fact that the pro machines aren't even available yet)
So I've got some time... but for me the G5 at anything close to it's current selling price would be a crazy investment (heh, I'd be able to play the latest doom in my off time - but that don't pay the bills)
All of that being said... yes I'm in full agreement with your points.
- In business you buy what you need when you need it.
- Avoid the razors edge if at all possible, let someone else get cut on hardware v1.0
but at the same time the pool of potential G5 buyers is and will continue to drop but people who purchased a G5 for business shouldn't really care about resale. The write off and the money you make by having the fastest and the best should outweigh the minimal cash you'd get when you're ready to sell and in research field I can tell you that systems are usually handed down... so the machines never really get sold since the machine that is finally retired is a real POS old mac than nobody would buy (ebay nuts excluded they tend to buy the craziest shit).
These G5s are still very competitive machines, we can't forget that fact. Apple says that the Core Duo iMacs are 2x faster than the iMac G5s that preceded them. I'm also sure that we'll see that the next line of Power Macs with Intel chips will also be quite a bit faster than these Power Mac G5s. But that doesn't mean that these G5s don't outperform the current Core Duo iMacs and we've still got quite a bit of time before these Power Macs are EOL'd. Plus, the Yonah chips in the iMacs aren't 64 Bit like the G5s, kind of a step backwards, we'll need to see what replaces the G5 in the Power Mac line, I would assume it would have to be 64 Bit so Apple can ship machines with more than 2 GBs of RAM.
32bit machines can support up to 4GB RAM. The 2GB limit is due to a 2 memory slot limit. My iMac G5 can support up to 2^64 RAM (17 Petabytes or something), but I can only stick 2GB in it because I only have 2 RAM slots. The 2GB limit isn't a 32 vs. 64 bit thing.
Just wanted to clear that up.
Oh to the person mentioning Aperture not running on iMac G5's, it's only the first revision iMac G5 it won't run on because Aperture rejects the FX5200 Ultra GPU. All later versions of iMac (including Intel once the free UB is out) support Aperture. (I have a Rev A iMac G5 and was bummed when it failed the Aperture check program solely due to the GPU which is CI compliant.)
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I don't plan on giving up my iMac G5 just because of the BootCamp announcement either. I just wish I knew about it before I bought my PC laptop as I need Windows to connect to work and for Visual Studio/SQL Server stuff. I'd much rather have a dual-booting MacBookPro instead of the HP laptop I have now (bought in Feb.).
People who actually are productive and make money using their Macs will fully use the investment in their current computer until it will no longer make them as much money. This group won't replace what they have until the new computer proves more productive and worth the investment.
EXACTLY! If it costs more to buy a new machine than you would make from the faster machine, it's a no-buy situation. If a new machine will give you a capability that you need AND have not currently had, that is a buy situation.
A couple of weeks ago, I just bought a demo dual-processor PM G5 2.0 Ghz from CompUSA. This was after considering buying a new or refurbished iMac G5. Not once did I consider buying an Intel Mac. Why? Because Avid is the slowest company on the planet when it comes to revising their software. I need a Mac that can quickly and efficiently run Avid XPress Pro. PowerPC Macs can do that, Intel Macs can't...at all.
My PowerMac G5 is a little more than twice as fast as my 1.25Ghz Powerbook G4. File importing: twice as fast. Render times: twice as fast. Exporting times: twice as fast. Price: $1399 plus a little for extra RAM. I think I got a good deal. I have no regrets. I will be well served by my Power Mac for years. When I can no longer get proper use from this machine, and so long as Avid offers Intel-capable software, I'll upgrade.
A Mac is obsolete when it is no longer of use to YOU. My dad's 400Mhz Lombard Powerbook does just what he needs: word processing and internet. It's not obsolete in his eyes.
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The first group of people are the people we don't see on AppleInsider very often. They are the ones that go to the Apple retail stores or buy a machine off of the Apple Website without coming to a rumor site to see when the machine they are buying might become obsolete. They need a new computer so they go out and buy one, satisfied in what they are buying.
The second group is made up of the people who come to AppleInsider every few hours looking for more information about new Macs. They want to be as up to date as possible on everything that may or may not be included in the next iBook or PowerMac, what the situation is at the assembly line, if Apple has discounted the MacMini by $50 in order to clear them out of the inventory for a revision next month, etc. They are the people that want to buy a new machine the minute it is announced, sometimes ordering on the telephone before Steve Jobs has even finished his sentence describing the new Mac.
To the people buying a new Power Mac G5 tower now, it's still an excellent machine. My brother bought a Power Mac G5 last year which is now equivilent to the current low end Power Mac G5 (Dual 2 GHz G5) and it is still amazingly fast. To the people who need to run Classic apps, this G5 line is going to last for quite some time and I doubt they will have any quick buyer's remorse as the Intel Power Macs aren't able to run Classic apps (at least not yet).
From what we have seen out of the MacBook Pro and the iMac, we can only assume that the first Power Macs running off of Intel chips will be very impressive. But after seeing so many top end products released, I can easily see people saying that the Intel Power Macs are good but they are waiting for a certain feature that may be in the pipeline or that they never buy 'Revision A' products, etc.
It's always a waiting game for the latest and greatest (and beyond). If you need a new computer now, the Quad G5 is still an amazing machine. If you don't need a new computer now, we should be looking at Intel Power Macs in 4-5 months.
No. It rests on the premise that when people buy computers they generally want more (future functionality) not less (past functionality. Boot camp is the tip of an iceberg (albeit a big tip) that most computer buyers can easily get their minds around.
Really and how many computers have you sold directly to clients in your lifetime?
If one has $2500 to spend on a computer today, the choice is clear. Wait
No the clear choice is to properly qualify the customer and find out what their priorities are. You then weigh the features/benefits and speeds and feeds. You don't pull a rabbit out the hat until you know that's what the customer wants. Sorry sales 101.
As I?ve written in other forums, with the introduction of Boot Camp the PowerMac G5 is now nearly worthless.
So by your logic. My Dual G5 that I use to to edit pictures in Photoshop, edit video in Final Cut Pro, create DVD's in DVD Studio Pro, and burn DVD's in Toast is now worthless because it cannot dual boot Windows.
And I don't need or want to dual boot Windows.
If one has $2500 to spend on a computer today, the choice is clear. Wait
With that attitude one could be waiting in perpetuity. There will always be the next computer with the newest, fanciest, fastest something.
They are the ones that go to the Apple retail stores or buy a machine off of the Apple Website without coming to a rumor site to see when the machine they are buying might become obsolete. They need a new computer so they go out and buy one, satisfied in what they are buying.
Obsolete is a relative term. One could argue that no computer is ever obsolete for someone's needs.
There are still plenty of 1999 iMacs out there. Used mostly by people for word processing and sending e-mails. Which is what most people are doing on their computers and is all many people need to do.
Originally posted by backtomac
Everyone's needs are different. There are users with g4 towers who run CS2. What should they do? Get a new mac tower and run cs2 in rosetta? Sure cs3 will be coming out next year but can pros, who do that for a living, go 6-12 months working in rosetta? A quad g5 is still their best bet. I agree that if you can wait to wait. When cs3 is UB then ppc macs will be obsolete.
I agree, everyone?s needs are different, but in your scenario pro users who need to be running those applications should already have a G5. Those machines have been out for some time, so for a pro user to still be using a G4 at this late date doesn?t make much sense, especially when pro users can write the purchase of a new machine off their taxes with the flick of a keystroke.
Originally posted by backtomac
Everyone's needs are different. There are users with g4 towers who run CS2. What should they do? Get a new mac tower and run cs2 in rosetta? Sure cs3 will be coming out next year but can pros, who do that for a living, go 6-12 months working in rosetta? A quad g5 is still their best bet. I agree that if you can wait to wait. When cs3 is UB then ppc macs will be obsolete.
Actually, it would be interesting to determine what speed Mac is comparable to running CS3 under Rosetta. This way, if you have say an old G4 PowerMac, you'll know if a Core Duo iMac will outperform it. Sure, a Quad G5 will beat the pants of it, but if you want a more future proof interim machine, the iMac might be the way to go.
If you're a Pro user and are used to upgrades almost yearly, getting a G5 tower may make sense. But then again, these types of users probably already have one. I have a Rev A G5 Duallie and I don't see replacing it for a while. Although I might just get a MacBook Pro and new display (my current one has ADC) and that will tide me over until the new towers are out.
The biggest drawback of the new crop of Intel Macs is the 2 GB memory limit.
Originally posted by backtomac
When cs3 is UB then ppc macs will be obsolete.
So you say the $5,000 + investment in soft- and hardware my boss did last november is obsolete this time next year?
instead of a $600 update to CS3.
I don't think so.
I can buy 1 copy of CS3 and use it for both my iMac G5 and "soon-to-be-purchased" i or Mac Book (Pro) thanks to Universal Binaries.
I can use my iMac for a couple of years from now without running the risk to be totally excluded from the latest greatest.
Just like this 6 year old Pismo, I typing on right now, runs osX 10.4.6 without a problem.(okay, it won't swallow CS2 but I don't want to pay another $800 for a soon-to-be-obsolete software product anyway)
Originally posted by gar
So you say the $5,000 + investment in soft- and hardware my boss did last november is obsolete this time next year?
instead of a $600 update to CS3.
I don't think so.
I can buy 1 copy of CS3 and use it for both my iMac G5 and "soon-to-be-purchased" i or Mac Book (Pro) thanks to Universal Binaries.
I can use my iMac for a couple of years from now without running the risk to be totally excluded from the latest greatest.
Just like this 6 year old Pismo, I typing on right now, runs osX 10.4.6 without a problem.(okay, it won't swallow CS2 but I don't want to pay another $800 for a soon-to-be-obsolete software product anyway)
I agree, that was a bit overstated.
This one two punch has almost every forum poster I've read here on AI wanting get their hands on a new Core Duo based machine.
Hell, before all this I was actually considering getting myself a G5 PowerMac (if the prices did drop just a bit) but now... I gotta tell ya... I think I'm gonna make the jump to the 20" iMac now... Have fun for the summer playing around with all the stuff the new machines are offering and then gift it to my wife this winter when I'm guessing the new pro machines get turned loose.
Now if I were a graphics professional I'd feel somewhat different and wouldn't do what I'm planing on doing but still I'd sure as hell feel the G5 systems are worth far less than they were only 48 short hours ago.
Dave
As I said in the Poll thread in General Discussion, the only reason I own a PC right now is because my college required me to run some Windows specific development apps. I'm graduating in less than 2 months (provided I survive my final math class) and beyond that, I don't see my PC getting a lot of use. If I bought a new Intel Mac right now, I don't think I would install Windows on it.
Parallels is interesting, there's no denying that. But it's basically a speedier Virtual PC from what I've read. It's still not able to recognize the processor, graphics card, etc. The data sheet says it 'virtualizes a full set of the standard hardware including an Intel Pentium II, a Generic Motherboard, RAM up to 1.5 GB, and VGA and SVGA with VESA 3.0 support'.
I imagine that a virtual machine like that will run less intensive Windows programs without issue. People who are looking to run PC games or more CPU intense apps are going to need to actually boot into Windows.
I guess people are excited about now having the 'option' to run Windows on their Intel Macs. It's still an expensive option to have. Let's say that you went to a store tonight like CompUSA to buy a new MacBook Pro and also a copy of Windows. The cost of the MacBook Pro is $2500 and you'd spend $300 on top of that for a copy of Windows XP Professional with Service Pack 2. If you decided to go the Virtual Machine route, you'd have to throw in another $50 for that software. Throw in sales tax if applicable in your state. I only mention CompUSA as the retail store because I don't think we'll see Apple Stores selling copies of Windows XP any time soon (at least I hope not).
I'll never forget Macworld Boston in 1997 (the last Macworld Boston that Steve Jobs attended). Gates got up on the big screen and to the Mac faithful, Apple had seemingly sold it's soul to the devil. I remember my Dad saying that it was only a matter of time before Macs would be running Windows just like everyone else. For all of these years, I'd shrugged it off, thinking that it would never happen. Even when the Intel Macs came out and it was likely that someone would hack them to get Windows to run, I never thought it would be a mainstream option. Now we have Apple making it easy to boot Windows on their hardware, I never thought I'd see that day.
Think about why we were originally happy with the decision to move from PPC to x86. Most of us were (and still are) very excited about the prospect of faster Macs now that the chain to the IBM/Motrola anchor was finally broken. No longer would we have to worry about Apple needing to bump the speed of their machines *down* so they are able to ship orders. No longer would we have to worry about Apple continuing to stick G4 chips into their Pro laptop line. No longer would we have that feeling in the pit of our stomachs that while the IBM/Motorola roadmaps always looked good, they wouldn't be able to deliver yet again.
But we also need to remember that we are Mac users for a reason. We need to remember that there is *nothing* wrong with the current Power Mac lineup. Future apps are going to be Universal and will run on these G5s and they will likely run very well. The ability to boot into Windows is a novelty which will most likely be used by switchers rather than existing Mac owners. The question you need to ask yourselves is this: Is the ability to run one or two apps that aren't available for Mac OS X worth $300-$350, 20 GBs of my hard drive, and the hassles of maintaining a clean Windows environment?
Undoubtedly, there are people who will answer 'Yes' to that question and they will jump at the opportunity. But for most of us, if we *really* needed a Windows machine that badly at some point, we would already have a Windows box.
Ultimately, Apple is in the business of pushing Mac OS X. I don't believe that Apple will abandon the Power PC Mac owners any time soon. Remember that Apple still supports Mac OS X 10.4 on Power Mac G3 towers from 1998. That's a heck of a long life for a machine. Heck, my Pismo (PowerBook G3/500) would still be supported if I hadn't had that upgrade from Apple after it took one too many trips back to customer support.
These G5s are still very competitive machines, we can't forget that fact. Apple says that the Core Duo iMacs are 2x faster than the iMac G5s that preceded them. I'm also sure that we'll see that the next line of Power Macs with Intel chips will also be quite a bit faster than these Power Mac G5s. But that doesn't mean that these G5s don't outperform the current Core Duo iMacs and we've still got quite a bit of time before these Power Macs are EOL'd. Plus, the Yonah chips in the iMacs aren't 64 Bit like the G5s, kind of a step backwards, we'll need to see what replaces the G5 in the Power Mac line, I would assume it would have to be 64 Bit so Apple can ship machines with more than 2 GBs of RAM.
New Macs are always going to be faster than old Macs and if you want to wait for the next Mac, you can. But that doesn't mean that the current crop of Power Macs are 'worthless'. The only thing that could make them 'worthless' would be if Apple didn't have developers make Universal apps that run on both PPC and Intel. Since there's no option to make a program just for Mac OS X on Intel, I don't think people have any reason to worry. If you don't plan on running Windows, still need Classic support, or just require a machine immediately, these G5s are still a good buy.
Originally posted by onlooker
I don't know one person that still uses a classic app. Not in at least 2 years.
I use Black Night every day to monitor an old non-linear edit system. Black Night only works in Classic. It connects through a USB to serial converter. I've tried various OSX terminal emulation apps and they won't connect.
Originally posted by onlooker
f you still want a G5 after the new ProMac is released good for you, and I'm sure the prices will drop to a cheaper point after the intel versions are released.
They are really trying to push the new intel ProMac line, and this will be the first real showcase of the fruits that intel can provide them. AFAIC The iMac, and the Mac Book Pro were merely to stabilize them on intel in the minds of the consumer base. The Pro Mac will be their first great achievement using x86 processors.
There will still be plenty of people that will buy G5's after the intel ProMac's come out, but they made this transition for this machine and they want you and everyone to know about it, [/B]
Originally posted by onlooker
f you still want a G5 after the new ProMac is released good for you, and I'm sure the prices will drop to a cheaper point after the intel versions are released.
They are really trying to push the new intel ProMac line, and this will be the first real showcase of the fruits that intel can provide them. AFAIC The iMac, and the Mac Book Pro were merely to stabilize them on intel in the minds of the consumer base. The Pro Mac will be their first great achievement using x86 processors.
There will still be plenty of people that will buy G5's after the intel ProMac's come out, but they made this transition for this machine and they want you and everyone to know about it, [/B]
i just bought powermac dual core 2ghz 2 month ago ...and kinda regret it, T T if only i know this sooner, i would wait it for the intel ver..damn...i waited so long for the dual core, but technology is just passing me by...
Originally posted by Fran441
If you don't plan on running Windows,
Windows is the tip of the iceberg. The real point here that the next PowerMacs will have the capacity to do things that G5s can?t. A serious line is being drawn in the sand between the Macs of today and the Macs of tomorrow; you can buy the future or the past. Choose. btw, Classic emulation may yet come to the Mactels.
Originally posted by Fran441
still need Classic support,
A shrinking community, at best, and getting smaller every day.
Originally posted by Fran441
or just require a machine immediately,
An imagined consumer if ever there was one. Anyone who needs a machine ?immediately? already has one or regular access to one.
Originally posted by Fran441
these G5s are still a good buy.
A fool and his money are soon parted. I suggest you G5 owners find a sucker to unload your machines on fast because every day from now on your pool of interested buyers will be ever smaller. I see the list of G5s on ebay has ballooned in the last 48 hours.
A couple of points: When you write something off on your taxes it just means that income you spent is not taxable. So if you buy a $3000 machine and your tax rate is 33% (for instance) you just pay $1000 less on your taxes. Your still paying $2000 for your computer after all is said and done.
It's silly to say that someone is a "sucker" for buying a G5 now. They are still the fastest machines available for running Mac software. Yes soon, they will be slower than the new machines and those new machines will be slower than the ones that come after. I can think of 4 good reasons to buy a tower now. I can also think of good reasons to wait. It's crazy to pass judgement on everyone else's choices without knowledge of their situation.
I suggest you G5 owners find a sucker to unload your machines on fast because every day from now on your pool of interested buyers will be ever smaller. I see the list of G5s on ebay has ballooned in the last 48 hours
Nowhere in my posts have I mentioned that I own one of these G5s. I don't. I own a Titanium PowerBook G4. I've also never sold any of my Macs before, they've always served me very well and are given to other family members when I upgrade.
Windows is the tip of the iceberg. The real point here that the next PowerMacs will have the capacity to do things that G5s can?t. A serious line is being drawn in the sand between the Macs of today and the Macs of tomorrow; you can buy the future or the past. Choose. btw, Classic emulation may yet come to the Mactels.
This isn't just about Windows? O rly?
What can the new Intel iMac do *better* than the current Power Mac G5s? Take some time to think it over if you need to.
The current top of the line Power Mac G5s are faster than the current Core Duo iMacs in running Univeral apps. Yes, the new iMacs stack up very well against the Power Macs but the towers still have the advantage when you need to upgrade a component of your machine. You can put in a newer Graphics card, add up to 16 GB of RAM, and you can always add another PCI card, extra hard drives, etc. Not only that, you get to pick your own monitor.
These Power Macs are going to run Universal apps indefinitely. We know Apple won't abandon the people who buy these Power Mac G5s, they still support the current version of Mac OS X on machines released in the late 90s!
So besides the fact that the next Power Macs will be faster than the current Power Macs (something which is always the case with new machines, PPC or not), what advantages do they have *other* than the fact that you can run Windows if you want to? I can't think of *any* good reasons right now.
Why? I just bought a new G5 PM (dual core 2GHz) this week.
I could get the EDU discount so that helps somewhat.
Now it has 2.5gb of RAM, the 160gb boot drive, and a 300gb second drive for video.
Why would I do this when the new Intel pro machines are imminent?
Simple, I needed it now, and am not particularly fond of rev A machines.
I also have an iMac G4 and iMac G5, but my main machine for editing has been a PB G4 (1.5) w/ 20" Cinema. I recently upgraded to Aperture and editing HDV (vs DV) and the PowerBook ground to a halt. The iMacs (even the G5) wont even run Aperture.
Beyond that the Intel stuff so far is VERY quick from what I can see.
But I dont see the need to rush out and get the Rev A machines of this transition (I came thought the 68K to PPC transition).
Also have you seen the inside of the Intel iMac? What happened to Apples becoming beautiful on the outside and inside?
My new PM is very fast for my needs. Eats, edits, and plays HDV like butter.
I can upgrade the vid cards over the next year or so as I need to. Shortly I will probably get a Mac Book Pro to replace my PB G4, but this PM will be my video station from sometime to come.
Did I mention how goreous it is inside and out - work of art, IMHO.
Last of the line, end of an era, and I'm proud to have it.
Even IF new Intels come out next month...
People who actually are productive and make money using their Macs will fully use the investment in their current computer until it will no longer make them as much money. This group won't replace what they have until the new computer proves more productive and worth the investment.
They will pay $2500 for a MacBook Pro or $3000 for a new Power Mac. Because this machine is a business investment. Its job is to work and make money.
The real point here that the next PowerMacs will have the capacity to do things that G5s can?t.
You aren't saying anything new this is always the case. The same goes for the PowerMacs after that.
Anyone who needs a machine ?immediately? already has one or regular access to one.
You seem to literally expect people should stop buying PowerMac G5 today and literally wait for some distant Intel PowerMac.
If most people really did stop buying Macs today to wait for something tomorrow Apple Computer stock and profit would take a serious fall. Leaving a weaker and less effective Apple Computer tomorrow.
A fool and his money are soon parted. I suggest you G5 owners find a sucker to unload your machines on fast because every day from now on your pool of interested buyers will be ever smaller.
This logic makes no sense.
Originally posted by TenoBell
The difference some of you guys have to realize are that many of us are not hobbyists or gamers. We use our Macs for business and to get work done, as in we actually are productive and make money using them. It doesn't matter how new the computer is or matter what wizz bang features the next version will have. All that matters is can I get what I need to get done with what I have.
Ah that's where you're wrong (in my case anyway) While I do have my hobbyists hat and when posting here that's usually the hat I wear but I too make money while using my Mac... And more to the point support other mac users in the research & scientific fields.
On one hand I'd never even DREAM of recommending a Core Duo based mac for them (well maybe for their administrative assistant but thats about it) *but* on the other-hand I've gotta be ready for the time in the not too distant future where I WILL be in a position to recommend a new Intel mac (once the high end desktops arrive and their core apps they use have been recompiled as UB) so you see I REALLY need to up to speed with the new Machines prior to me being able to recommend them any support person worth their salt will I'm sure agree.
So no, I'm not a Photoshop, graphic artist, motion picture person, etc etc etc but I too need to make my living with the Mac and as I said before... I was almost ready to pull the trigger on a desktop G5 but with the latest news I can see now more than ever NOT having a Core Duo machine is really a mistake. I know my researchers and once they know they can run those annoying but needed windows apps every once in a while without having to shell out for a dedicated intel/windows box. They'll be chomping at the bit to get one. (until I explain that universal binaries will be a must before they make the jump - that and the fact that the pro machines aren't even available yet)
So I've got some time... but for me the G5 at anything close to it's current selling price would be a crazy investment (heh, I'd be able to play the latest doom in my off time - but that don't pay the bills)
All of that being said... yes I'm in full agreement with your points.
- In business you buy what you need when you need it.
- Avoid the razors edge if at all possible, let someone else get cut on hardware v1.0
but at the same time the pool of potential G5 buyers is and will continue to drop but people who purchased a G5 for business shouldn't really care about resale. The write off and the money you make by having the fastest and the best should outweigh the minimal cash you'd get when you're ready to sell and in research field I can tell you that systems are usually handed down... so the machines never really get sold since the machine that is finally retired is a real POS old mac than nobody would buy (ebay nuts excluded they tend to buy the craziest shit).
Dave
Originally posted by Fran441
These G5s are still very competitive machines, we can't forget that fact. Apple says that the Core Duo iMacs are 2x faster than the iMac G5s that preceded them. I'm also sure that we'll see that the next line of Power Macs with Intel chips will also be quite a bit faster than these Power Mac G5s. But that doesn't mean that these G5s don't outperform the current Core Duo iMacs and we've still got quite a bit of time before these Power Macs are EOL'd. Plus, the Yonah chips in the iMacs aren't 64 Bit like the G5s, kind of a step backwards, we'll need to see what replaces the G5 in the Power Mac line, I would assume it would have to be 64 Bit so Apple can ship machines with more than 2 GBs of RAM.
32bit machines can support up to 4GB RAM. The 2GB limit is due to a 2 memory slot limit. My iMac G5 can support up to 2^64 RAM (17 Petabytes or something), but I can only stick 2GB in it because I only have 2 RAM slots. The 2GB limit isn't a 32 vs. 64 bit thing.
Just wanted to clear that up.
Oh to the person mentioning Aperture not running on iMac G5's, it's only the first revision iMac G5 it won't run on because Aperture rejects the FX5200 Ultra GPU. All later versions of iMac (including Intel once the free UB is out) support Aperture. (I have a Rev A iMac G5 and was bummed when it failed the Aperture check program solely due to the GPU which is CI compliant.)
[Edit]
I don't plan on giving up my iMac G5 just because of the BootCamp announcement either. I just wish I knew about it before I bought my PC laptop as I need Windows to connect to work and for Visual Studio/SQL Server stuff. I'd much rather have a dual-booting MacBookPro instead of the HP laptop I have now (bought in Feb.).
Originally posted by TenoBell
People who actually are productive and make money using their Macs will fully use the investment in their current computer until it will no longer make them as much money. This group won't replace what they have until the new computer proves more productive and worth the investment.
EXACTLY! If it costs more to buy a new machine than you would make from the faster machine, it's a no-buy situation. If a new machine will give you a capability that you need AND have not currently had, that is a buy situation.
A couple of weeks ago, I just bought a demo dual-processor PM G5 2.0 Ghz from CompUSA. This was after considering buying a new or refurbished iMac G5. Not once did I consider buying an Intel Mac. Why? Because Avid is the slowest company on the planet when it comes to revising their software. I need a Mac that can quickly and efficiently run Avid XPress Pro. PowerPC Macs can do that, Intel Macs can't...at all.
My PowerMac G5 is a little more than twice as fast as my 1.25Ghz Powerbook G4. File importing: twice as fast. Render times: twice as fast. Exporting times: twice as fast. Price: $1399 plus a little for extra RAM. I think I got a good deal. I have no regrets. I will be well served by my Power Mac for years. When I can no longer get proper use from this machine, and so long as Avid offers Intel-capable software, I'll upgrade.
A Mac is obsolete when it is no longer of use to YOU. My dad's 400Mhz Lombard Powerbook does just what he needs: word processing and internet. It's not obsolete in his eyes.