I've owned both 15" and 12" PowerBooks, and for those of you who are dismissive about the significance of the size difference, all I can say is that a lot of us have tried both sizes, and no matter how few pounds and inches we're actually talking about, a lot of us find the 12" size feels a whole lot more portable.
Now, if the old 12.1" is replaced by 13.3" widescreen -- that small change in and of itself isn't that big a deal to me.
What would bother me is if the only way to get a 12/13" model is to leave the Pro line entirely and settle for a plastic enclosed MacBook non-pro. What I've wanted for a long time now was for the often odd-man-out 12" PowerBook to have more of the features of its 15" and 17" siblings. Dumping the smaller ~12" size completely from the Pro line would be an annoying step in the wrong direction.
Seconded! Hopefully apple will recognize the large number of people who really want something smaller than the 15" that still looks professional and can be used in a business setting, without giving up the ability to perform monitor spanning and run programs requiring a dedicated graphics card like Aperture, Motion, and FCP (even if it isn't the speediest).
I would like to see a 10" come out, I think that will be apples next move into the smaller laptop market. Keep in mind that I base this on nothing.
I used to have a 12" and 15" powerbook until my girlfriend fell in love with Mac's, at that point I just have a 15" PB. I now have a 15MBP and 12iBook (for use in network closets and stuff). I still think the 12" is a little too large. It is difficult to really do anything on a 12", so why not go smaller. Make a nice small 10" that will work great on the plane, for a quick email check on the way out, etc. I would really like to see that.
Like a few posters said I think people are jumping the gun a bit, I say we wait and see what happens but my guess is that there will be 3 different MacBook versions...
-------------------------
13.3" WS Display
$999 ($1099)
Intel Core Solo 1.67GHz
HD 60 GB
RAM 512 MB
Intel IG
------------------------
13.3" WS Display
$1299
Intel Core Duo 1.67GHz
HD 80 GB
RAM 512 MB
Intel IG
------------------------
13.3" WS Display
$1599
Intel Core Duo 1.67GHz (or 1.83GHz, perhaps a BTO option)
HD 80 GB
RAM 512 MB (perhaps 1GB if they upgrade the 1.83GHz MacBook Pro to 1GB aswell)
ATI Mobility Radeon X1300 with 256 MB GDDR3 memory
I think the top of the class MacBook (which will be the official upgrade to the 12" PB IMO) will have a "real" Graphics Card but not the X1600 that way Apple can make it Pro enough with out stepping on the MacBook Pro toes.
Anyways this is what I believe will happen and hopefully it will
Anyways this is what I believe will happen and hopefully it will
Whatever will happen will happen, but I wouldn't use "hopefully" as a way to describe the product line as you laid it out.
I don't want a top-of-the-line iBook/MacBook non-Pro as the replacement for the 12" PowerBook. I want a real MacBook officially-called-Pro in the 12" or 13" WS size. Not only will some Pro features never show up in a non-Pro model, no matter how jazzed up it is compared to the rest of the non-Pro line, but a non-Pro will have a thickness-and-weight-adding plastic body instead of a the sleek aluminum body of a Pro model.
Differences comparable to the differences between the 15" MacBook Pros.
The name will remain iBook, just as the iMac remained iMac. The change in the pro machines is to remove the 'Power' prefix which was attributed to the PowerPCs.
The common features.... 13.3" widescreen, iSight, Front row, and with extended display modes via a Mini-Dvi link.
It will effectively replace the current 12" iBook, 14" iBook and 12" PowerBook.
For the first time, all Macs shipping will include Superdrives.
Pricing from $1299 - $1599. Higher price point due to the fact that many pro features have made their way to the consumer (ala 12" PowerBook).
Dumping the smaller ~12" size completely from the Pro line would be an annoying step in the wrong direction.
Not if many of the "pro" features were absorbed into the consumer line. So instead of buying a rebranded-iBook (12" PowerBook), you buy an iBook with some pro features. And if you want a 15" display or more, you get a MacBook Pro.
The 12" PowerBook was nothing more than Apple using branding to lower costs and make consumers think they are getting a 'pro' product, during tough economic times. Its proved a success for Porsche, Mersades, etc...as it has for Apple as well.
But i think the time has come to distinguish the Pro and Consumer line again, thus making it wasier for the customer to pick a product.
How is this accomplished ? simple..... absorb some pro features into the consumer line and raise prices... since the economy is headed for a boom pretty soon, consumers wont mind the slightly higher price (ala Mac mini), and will appreciate the pro features. Pro customers will appreciate the fact that they are getting a heftier machine, with a bigger display that is light in their class of machine, and wont have any problem considering 'downgrading' to a 12" form factor in a 'pro' machine.
Apple appears to be streamlining it's product martix, which means there's going to be fewer models in each category, and definately less overlap from consumer to pro lines.
The name will remain iBook, just as the iMac remained iMac. The change in the pro machines is to remove the 'Power' prefix which was attributed to the PowerPCs.
Keeps being stated and keeps being wrong.
The point of the name change was the highlight that the machines are Macs. The PowerBooks were so called years before any Mac ever used a PowerPC CPU.
The iMac renamed the iMac because it already had Mac in its name.
Quote:
For the first time, all Macs shipping will include Superdrives.
Since the low-end Mac mini has a Combo drive, evidently that's not gonna happen.
Not if many of the "pro" features were absorbed into the consumer line.
I just don't see that happening. While the 12" PowerBook straddled the line between being a full-blooded PowerBook and a glorified iBook in an aluminum case, I think that kind of blurring of product lines distinctions was more an exception to the rule than an indication of a trend.
I certainly can't see Apple putting so many "Pro" features in the next "iBooks" (MacBook non-Pros) that they leave you little reason other than display size to choose one over the other. My only concern is that there won't be any overlap in screen sizes between Pro and non-Pro, so that I won't be able to choose feature set and screen size independently.
Of course, much of what's "Pro" today will become standard-issue over time, but for the foreseeable future, I expect nearly all of the following features to be Pro-only, with maybe a small number of surprises:
Aluminum or other thin, light-weight, non-plastic enclosure.
Dual core. (Okay, given that this is available in the top Mini model, maybe we'd see this in the top MacBook non-Pro.)
Lighted keyboard and ambient light sensor. (Yes, I know the 12" PowerBook doesn't have these and a few other Pro features as well -- like I said before, what I've been hoping for is a 12-13" MacBook Pro which is more properly a Pro model.)
Built-in iSight.
MagSafe power adapter.
Remote control (and corresponding IR port).
Separate graphics card instead of integrated graphics.
Monitor spanning.
ExpressCard slot. (Something which I'd not be surprised to continue to see go missing from a small MacBook Pro, simply due to enclosure size.)
Digital audio I/O. (Yes, even the Mini has this now, but I'd still expect digital audio to be held back from non-Pro laptops.)
DVI video output, especially dual-link DVI.
Option for whatever the most advanced optical drive is at any given time.
Apple will do what Apple will do, and I realize that what I hope for has little to do with that. However, if Apple drops the under-15" size from the Pro line, it seems a bit crazy to think that a top-of-the-line non-Pro model is going to have enough of the above features to make someone who really wants a small MacBook Pro happy.
[Edit: Okay, so iBooks already have the Sudden Motion Sensor!]
I suppose. Then again, the iBook's enclosure, while thicker, is also more durable.
The durability of plastic is definitely a plus for some people. Nevertheless, many people would rather have an aluminum emclosure for thinness, weight, and style.
Quote:
How is this [built-in iSight] a Pro feature?
Not all so-called Pro features really have all that much to do with what's "professional" or not. Some of the differences come down to ways to control price points, and ways to try to lure the customer from the consumer models up to the Pro models. Built-in iSight is the kind of thing that's slick enough and cool enough (not to mention having I'd guess about a $50-$100 effect on pricing) that I'd expect to remain a Pro feature as an enticement to upgrade.
Quote:
Even the low-end Mac mini has this [remote control].
The line between pro and consumer is typically drawn lower when it comes to laptops than it is for desktops. Built-in displays and a need for more miniaturization and complex assembly drive up the cost of a laptop, even before you start adding in special features. These reasons, and the trends I've seen in the iBook/PowerBook distinction over time, lend me to suspect strongly that remote control (and digital audio I/O, also a feature of the Intel Minis) will remain Pro-only features for Apple's laptops in the near future.
Even though I didn't put it in my list, I wouldn't be terribly surprised in the new MacBooks don't have gig ethernet either.
Quote:
The iBook already has this.[sudden motion sensor.
Okay -- I'll have to strike that from the list. I'd at least tried to check this before putting it down on my list, but now I see I missed it.
At any rate, the bottom line is that, regardless of the specifics at any given time, I believe Apple with continue to have a fairly large bundle of features which are Pro-only, and that you'll always have to give up a lot of features if you choose even the top-of-the-line consumer model over any Pro model.
Dropping the 12"/13.3" from the Pro line would be a bummer. If they do this, they better offer a 10" or smaller notebook with some battery life and at least 1.4Ghz dual core. :-) I'll settle for a 60 GB hdd too.
I admit, I am a 12" er and I love it. I would buy a 15" if I could have a subnotebook to travel with.
I wish Apple would arrive in 2006 and make us a subnotebook for the Mac community. The future of PC's are small, durable and easy on batteries.
This is what it I said in another thread but it better pertains to here:
Quote:
Originally posted by ecking
$999 MackBook
13.3" Widescreen
1.66GHz Intel Core Duo processor
512MB memory (Expandable to 2GB)
40GB 4200rpm HD
Combo Drive
Intel GMA950 64MB shared
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0
Built in iSight
Apple Remote
$1299 MacBook
13.3" Widescreen
1.66GHz Intel Core Duo processor
512MB memory (Expandable to 2GB)
60GB 5400rpm HD
SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Intel GMA950 64MB shared
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0
Built in iSight
Apple Remote
$1499 MacBook
13.3" Widescreen
1.66GHz Intel Core Duo processor
512MB memory (Expandable to 2GB)
80GB 5400rpm HD
SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW)
ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 with 128MB GDDR3 memory
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0
Built in iSight
Apple Remote
I mean read into it, Apple wants to grow as a company but will limit themselves to only 2 lines with 2 configurations all the while forgetting their 12" powerbook user base? I don't see it happening, this redesign allows them to make the ibook not so toy-like as well as leaving room to almost merge the product lines.
Look at the names MacBook and MacBook Pro are that simliar for a reason, they're sister systems and will probably sport similar designs only being separated by specs and MacBook being plastic.
This I believe allow the 12" pb to move into MacBook territory without making the machine look extremely consumer.
I think most people are wrong and there will be THREE MacBooks because one will take the 12" PowerBook spot.
While I'm sure Apple will include an iSight into the iBook, I'm REALLY hoping that they make the iSight a BTO option down the line. I work in secured areas a lot so Apple has effectively shut me out of their portable market for the time being.
That being said, the 12" is going to die and be forever replaced with a 13.3" compy. Maye Apple will go down the line of smaller portables, but I don't see that for at least another 8-12 months until the Intel transition is complete and we need new stuff to worked up over.
I'll throw my bet in and say we'll have 2 new iBook models, something like the following:
13.3" Widescreen
1.5 GHz Core Solo
60 GB SATA HDD
512 MB DDR2 RAM
ATI Mobilitiy Radeon X600 128MB VRAM (This might be asking alot though)
**ATI Mobility Radeon X300, maybe Intel IG....**
Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR
AirPort 802.11g Connectivity
MagSafe
Combo Drive
iSight
Price: $999
15" Widescreen
1.67 GHz Core Duo
80 GB SATA
512 MB DDR2 RAM
ATI Mobility Radeon X600 128MB VRAM (This might be a little easier to pull off...)
Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR
Airport 802.11g Connectivity
MagSafe
SuperDrive
iSight
Price: $1299
But who knows ... it's fun to predict in any case...
Comments
a portable can be powerful... without losing portabillity,
is what anybody who's always on the road needs. Either for work or for mediatainment lifestyle.
mb 13.3
mbp 12... or less (and thinner)
size matters (and weight), and it is a pro factor too. just see the prices
Now, if the old 12.1" is replaced by 13.3" widescreen -- that small change in and of itself isn't that big a deal to me.
What would bother me is if the only way to get a 12/13" model is to leave the Pro line entirely and settle for a plastic enclosed MacBook non-pro. What I've wanted for a long time now was for the often odd-man-out 12" PowerBook to have more of the features of its 15" and 17" siblings. Dumping the smaller ~12" size completely from the Pro line would be an annoying step in the wrong direction.
Originally posted by shetline
Dumping the smaller ~12" size completely from the Pro line would be an annoying step in the wrong direction.
I concur.
Originally posted by DHagan4755
I concur.
Seconded! Hopefully apple will recognize the large number of people who really want something smaller than the 15" that still looks professional and can be used in a business setting, without giving up the ability to perform monitor spanning and run programs requiring a dedicated graphics card like Aperture, Motion, and FCP (even if it isn't the speediest).
I used to have a 12" and 15" powerbook until my girlfriend fell in love with Mac's, at that point I just have a 15" PB. I now have a 15MBP and 12iBook (for use in network closets and stuff). I still think the 12" is a little too large. It is difficult to really do anything on a 12", so why not go smaller. Make a nice small 10" that will work great on the plane, for a quick email check on the way out, etc. I would really like to see that.
-------------------------
13.3" WS Display
$999 ($1099)
Intel Core Solo 1.67GHz
HD 60 GB
RAM 512 MB
Intel IG
------------------------
13.3" WS Display
$1299
Intel Core Duo 1.67GHz
HD 80 GB
RAM 512 MB
Intel IG
------------------------
13.3" WS Display
$1599
Intel Core Duo 1.67GHz (or 1.83GHz, perhaps a BTO option)
HD 80 GB
RAM 512 MB (perhaps 1GB if they upgrade the 1.83GHz MacBook Pro to 1GB aswell)
ATI Mobility Radeon X1300 with 256 MB GDDR3 memory
(Here's a link to the X1300 specs: http://www.ati.com/products/mobility...300/specs.html
------------------------
I think the top of the class MacBook (which will be the official upgrade to the 12" PB IMO) will have a "real" Graphics Card but not the X1600 that way Apple can make it Pro enough with out stepping on the MacBook Pro toes.
Anyways this is what I believe will happen and hopefully it will
Originally posted by Darth_Apple
Anyways this is what I believe will happen and hopefully it will
Whatever will happen will happen, but I wouldn't use "hopefully" as a way to describe the product line as you laid it out.
I don't want a top-of-the-line iBook/MacBook non-Pro as the replacement for the 12" PowerBook. I want a real MacBook officially-called-Pro in the 12" or 13" WS size. Not only will some Pro features never show up in a non-Pro model, no matter how jazzed up it is compared to the rest of the non-Pro line, but a non-Pro will have a thickness-and-weight-adding plastic body instead of a the sleek aluminum body of a Pro model.
Differences comparable to the differences between the 15" MacBook Pros.
The name will remain iBook, just as the iMac remained iMac. The change in the pro machines is to remove the 'Power' prefix which was attributed to the PowerPCs.
The common features.... 13.3" widescreen, iSight, Front row, and with extended display modes via a Mini-Dvi link.
It will effectively replace the current 12" iBook, 14" iBook and 12" PowerBook.
For the first time, all Macs shipping will include Superdrives.
Pricing from $1299 - $1599. Higher price point due to the fact that many pro features have made their way to the consumer (ala 12" PowerBook).
As far as colors.....white.
Cheers
Originally posted by shetline
Dumping the smaller ~12" size completely from the Pro line would be an annoying step in the wrong direction.
Not if many of the "pro" features were absorbed into the consumer line. So instead of buying a rebranded-iBook (12" PowerBook), you buy an iBook with some pro features. And if you want a 15" display or more, you get a MacBook Pro.
The 12" PowerBook was nothing more than Apple using branding to lower costs and make consumers think they are getting a 'pro' product, during tough economic times. Its proved a success for Porsche, Mersades, etc...as it has for Apple as well.
But i think the time has come to distinguish the Pro and Consumer line again, thus making it wasier for the customer to pick a product.
How is this accomplished ? simple..... absorb some pro features into the consumer line and raise prices... since the economy is headed for a boom pretty soon, consumers wont mind the slightly higher price (ala Mac mini), and will appreciate the pro features. Pro customers will appreciate the fact that they are getting a heftier machine, with a bigger display that is light in their class of machine, and wont have any problem considering 'downgrading' to a 12" form factor in a 'pro' machine.
Apple appears to be streamlining it's product martix, which means there's going to be fewer models in each category, and definately less overlap from consumer to pro lines.
Cheers
Originally posted by Hawkeye_a
The name will remain iBook, just as the iMac remained iMac. The change in the pro machines is to remove the 'Power' prefix which was attributed to the PowerPCs.
Keeps being stated and keeps being wrong.
The point of the name change was the highlight that the machines are Macs. The PowerBooks were so called years before any Mac ever used a PowerPC CPU.
The iMac renamed the iMac because it already had Mac in its name.
For the first time, all Macs shipping will include Superdrives.
Since the low-end Mac mini has a Combo drive, evidently that's not gonna happen.
Originally posted by Hawkeye_a
Not if many of the "pro" features were absorbed into the consumer line.
I just don't see that happening. While the 12" PowerBook straddled the line between being a full-blooded PowerBook and a glorified iBook in an aluminum case, I think that kind of blurring of product lines distinctions was more an exception to the rule than an indication of a trend.
I certainly can't see Apple putting so many "Pro" features in the next "iBooks" (MacBook non-Pros) that they leave you little reason other than display size to choose one over the other. My only concern is that there won't be any overlap in screen sizes between Pro and non-Pro, so that I won't be able to choose feature set and screen size independently.
Of course, much of what's "Pro" today will become standard-issue over time, but for the foreseeable future, I expect nearly all of the following features to be Pro-only, with maybe a small number of surprises:
- Aluminum or other thin, light-weight, non-plastic enclosure.
- Dual core. (Okay, given that this is available in the top Mini model, maybe we'd see this in the top MacBook non-Pro.)
- Lighted keyboard and ambient light sensor. (Yes, I know the 12" PowerBook doesn't have these and a few other Pro features as well -- like I said before, what I've been hoping for is a 12-13" MacBook Pro which is more properly a Pro model.)
- Built-in iSight.
- MagSafe power adapter.
- Remote control (and corresponding IR port).
- Separate graphics card instead of integrated graphics.
- Monitor spanning.
- ExpressCard slot. (Something which I'd not be surprised to continue to see go missing from a small MacBook Pro, simply due to enclosure size.)
- Digital audio I/O. (Yes, even the Mini has this now, but I'd still expect digital audio to be held back from non-Pro laptops.)
- DVI video output, especially dual-link DVI.
- Option for whatever the most advanced optical drive is at any given time.
Apple will do what Apple will do, and I realize that what I hope for has little to do with that. However, if Apple drops the under-15" size from the Pro line, it seems a bit crazy to think that a top-of-the-line non-Pro model is going to have enough of the above features to make someone who really wants a small MacBook Pro happy.[Edit: Okay, so iBooks already have the Sudden Motion Sensor!]
Originally posted by shetline
I expect nearly all of the following features to be Pro-only, with maybe a small number of surprises:
Aluminum or other thin, light-weight, non-plastic enclosure.
I suppose. Then again, the iBook's enclosure, while thicker, is also more durable.
Built-in iSight.
How is this a Pro feature?
Remote control (and corresponding IR port).
Even the low-end Mac mini has this.
Sudden motion sensor.
The iBook already has this.
Originally posted by Chucker
I suppose. Then again, the iBook's enclosure, while thicker, is also more durable.
The durability of plastic is definitely a plus for some people. Nevertheless, many people would rather have an aluminum emclosure for thinness, weight, and style.
How is this [built-in iSight] a Pro feature?
Not all so-called Pro features really have all that much to do with what's "professional" or not. Some of the differences come down to ways to control price points, and ways to try to lure the customer from the consumer models up to the Pro models. Built-in iSight is the kind of thing that's slick enough and cool enough (not to mention having I'd guess about a $50-$100 effect on pricing) that I'd expect to remain a Pro feature as an enticement to upgrade.
Even the low-end Mac mini has this [remote control].
The line between pro and consumer is typically drawn lower when it comes to laptops than it is for desktops. Built-in displays and a need for more miniaturization and complex assembly drive up the cost of a laptop, even before you start adding in special features. These reasons, and the trends I've seen in the iBook/PowerBook distinction over time, lend me to suspect strongly that remote control (and digital audio I/O, also a feature of the Intel Minis) will remain Pro-only features for Apple's laptops in the near future.
Even though I didn't put it in my list, I wouldn't be terribly surprised in the new MacBooks don't have gig ethernet either.
The iBook already has this.[sudden motion sensor.
Okay -- I'll have to strike that from the list. I'd at least tried to check this before putting it down on my list, but now I see I missed it.
At any rate, the bottom line is that, regardless of the specifics at any given time, I believe Apple with continue to have a fairly large bundle of features which are Pro-only, and that you'll always have to give up a lot of features if you choose even the top-of-the-line consumer model over any Pro model.
I admit, I am a 12" er and I love it. I would buy a 15" if I could have a subnotebook to travel with.
I wish Apple would arrive in 2006 and make us a subnotebook for the Mac community. The future of PC's are small, durable and easy on batteries.
Originally posted by ecking
$999 MackBook
13.3" Widescreen
1.66GHz Intel Core Duo processor
512MB memory (Expandable to 2GB)
40GB 4200rpm HD
Combo Drive
Intel GMA950 64MB shared
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0
Built in iSight
Apple Remote
$1299 MacBook
13.3" Widescreen
1.66GHz Intel Core Duo processor
512MB memory (Expandable to 2GB)
60GB 5400rpm HD
SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Intel GMA950 64MB shared
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0
Built in iSight
Apple Remote
$1499 MacBook
13.3" Widescreen
1.66GHz Intel Core Duo processor
512MB memory (Expandable to 2GB)
80GB 5400rpm HD
SuperDrive (DVD±RW/CD-RW)
ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 with 128MB GDDR3 memory
Built-in AirPort Extreme and Bluetooth 2.0
Built in iSight
Apple Remote
I mean read into it, Apple wants to grow as a company but will limit themselves to only 2 lines with 2 configurations all the while forgetting their 12" powerbook user base? I don't see it happening, this redesign allows them to make the ibook not so toy-like as well as leaving room to almost merge the product lines.
Look at the names MacBook and MacBook Pro are that simliar for a reason, they're sister systems and will probably sport similar designs only being separated by specs and MacBook being plastic.
This I believe allow the 12" pb to move into MacBook territory without making the machine look extremely consumer.
I think most people are wrong and there will be THREE MacBooks because one will take the 12" PowerBook spot.
That being said, the 12" is going to die and be forever replaced with a 13.3" compy. Maye Apple will go down the line of smaller portables, but I don't see that for at least another 8-12 months until the Intel transition is complete and we need new stuff to worked up over.
I'll throw my bet in and say we'll have 2 new iBook models, something like the following:
13.3" Widescreen
1.5 GHz Core Solo
60 GB SATA HDD
512 MB DDR2 RAM
ATI Mobilitiy Radeon X600 128MB VRAM (This might be asking alot though)
**ATI Mobility Radeon X300, maybe Intel IG....**
Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR
AirPort 802.11g Connectivity
MagSafe
Combo Drive
iSight
Price: $999
15" Widescreen
1.67 GHz Core Duo
80 GB SATA
512 MB DDR2 RAM
ATI Mobility Radeon X600 128MB VRAM (This might be a little easier to pull off...)
Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR
Airport 802.11g Connectivity
MagSafe
SuperDrive
iSight
Price: $1299
But who knows ... it's fun to predict in any case...
Originally posted by icfireball
So if this thread was a bullet point...
No 12" MBP
Even less than that, this is all just speculation and rumor-mongering (?!).