Sur les forums frenchies j'emploie tu. Je pense que peux s'en offenseront. Dans la vie j'emploie le vous avec des inconnus, mais les forums internet c'est un monde Ã* part
Whew. I've never *really* understood the formal/informal distinction in any of the languages I've learned—mostly because there's really not an equivalent in English except for "Sir" or "Ma'am." Could someone explain how this works? I understand that it's all contextual and cultural and much of it may be unconscious (like gendering of nouns, which we don't have in English in any conscious way), but if you could help a poor *reader* of French out (I can't speak a word), I'd appreciate it.
The equivalent of tu existed in english in the old time (see Sheakspeare texts)
In France when you don't know somebody you say vous (you). This is the polite way to speak to someone else, or to a superior (boss, teacher ...) .
Now if you belong to a community like the Rotary, the LIon's club or your sport club, it's nice to say tu.
To a close friend you'd rather say tu, but in some social class (old school) they say vous. Even some people leaving in the same family say vous. (mère, vous me faites chier, Claude vous me ferez une petite pipe ce soir ...)
Yes even for a french people, the tu and vous thing is nightmarish. For example, one of my grand father was old school and a former high fonctionnary (sous prefet) : I never knew how to speak to him : tu, vous ? That's why I spoke to him, I say sentances starting by on (indifinite form of they)
at work I always say vous to nurse and my secretary, because it make their life simplier. I say vous, thus they say vous. If I say tu, they did not know how to react. As I am the boss, they won't know how to reply : vous, tu ( wich will imply in this case a form of intimacy or friendship). That's why I say vous to nurses and any others members of my hospital and tu at most doctors. But I will not say tu to every doctor, because some of them, would not appreciate this.
So the tu and vous thing, is sometimes nightmarish, but brings also many subtility in the communication
The equivalent of tu existed in english in the old time (see Sheakspeare texts)
Yes. In English, it's "you/ye" and "thee/thou." You is formal; thee is informal.
Thanks for clearing that up, PD. You've strengthened my belief that 90% of all French conversations are people saying "Wait, wait. Was that plural or singular?"
Ca fait si longtemps que j'ai encore écrit quelque chose en français que je suis totalement troublé. En tout cas, je crois que l'anglais est presque la seule langue qui n'utilise plus la forme de politesse. Pour moi, c'est trés simple: la forme de politesse est souvent beaucoup plus facile du coté grammatique, et on n'est jamais 'faux' en utilisant cette forme, donc le plupart du temps c'est la forme que moi j'utilise.
Is English the only language where this distinction no longer exists? It exists in Dutch, German (and other Germanic languages) and it exists in all the languages in India. The formal form of address is always the plural personal pronoun and the familiar form the singular.
In India, we sometimes even use the plural personal pronoun to refer to ourselves in the first person to denote superiority. That reminds me of a saying: "Only royalty and fat people have the prerogative of referring to themselves in the plural"
It's the same in dutch, except that the formal form is not the plural personal pronoun, but actually the third person singular (at least when it comes to the conjugation(?) of the verb).
To refer to oneself in the plural already existed in the time of the romans, and is to this day called a 'pluralis majestatis'. I don't think that needs a translation :-).
Is English the only language where this distinction no longer exists?
The interesting thing about it in English is that we retain big chunks of those old case endings and gendering and formalities but have lost any meaning that might have been associated with them...that's one of the reasons English is such a weird language and there's an exception or 15 to every rule.
It's the same in dutch, except that the formal form is not the plural personal pronoun, but actually the third person singular (at least when it comes to the conjugation(?) of the verb).
To refer to oneself in the plural already existed in the time of the romans, and is to this day called a 'pluralis majestatis'. I don't think that needs a translation :-).
Good french, SpcMS
BTW the pluralis majestis was used by former King Louis XIV aka the Sun god (nothing to do with the pharaon btw) . When he was speaking of him, Louis XIV used il.
For example "il plait au roi de vous accorder audience"
Needless to say that when you employ the pluralis majestis, either you are joking, or either you are totaly megalomaniac
The interesting thing about it in English is that we retain big chunks of those old case endings and gendering and formalities but have lost any meaning that might have been associated with them...that's one of the reasons English is such a weird language and there's an exception or 15 to every rule.
Yes there is no gender to name excepting in some case. For example speaking of boats it's she and not it. This alone, let help us understand that GB builded his empire upon it's (her) navy.
In many ways, English-speaking cultures are relatively flat compared to (some) others, so perhaps the language reflects and reinforces that. If there aren't even any pronouns in the language to show respect/familiarity, I'd think that would have an effect on the way we see people. But the US is becoming more and more class-oriented, so maybe we should bring back the distinction!
I've often thought the gender-orientation of so many languages is weird too. And not just pronouns, but words. I have a friend in France who is the editor of a journal, and she's a l'editrice (I think that's the word) rather than l'editeur. It always sounds to me like she's a mini-editor rather than a real editor. Or maybe a dancing editor.
The trend in the US is to always use the masculine or neutral - women are actors, for example, or chairs rather than chairmen and chairwomen.
Beaucoup des langues européenes, sont on peu bizarre avec 'vous' et 'tu', quelquefois je ne comprends pas! À cet égard, l'anglais est probablement la langue plus facile apprendre. C'est étrange que l'anglais ait tant de peu encore plus de du passé, comme des mots superflus. Aussi, en anglais, il y a environ 20 manières différentes de dire des choses! Quelquefois, c'est embrouillant pour des étrangers!
(D'ailleurs, je suis anglais. Pardon ma français!)
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Thank you for the quick replies.
Many of these European languages are quite strange in the sense of 'vous' and 'tu', I just get so confused sometimes! In this respect, English is probably the easier language to grasp. It's strange that English has so many bits left over from the past, words that are now redundant and so on. Also in English there are about 20 different words for different things, which can sometimes be confusing for foreigners I suppose.
My basic approach mimics that of the real world. I prefer to use ?vous? when joining a discussion (particularly if I'm new at the particular forum and don't know my interlocutors that well), changing later to ?tu? on a case-by-case basis; but if all other participants are already using ?tu? as a general rule, which is quite common on the internet, then I address everybody as ?tu?.
While I found English quite easy and even pleasant to learn, I was at first confused by having ?you? used both for the singular and the plural, and when saying ?you? I often added the person's name afterwards if meant in the singular.
I found French more difficult and therefore more challenging to learn, as for the use of the formal ?vous?, at first I didn't believe that people actually talked that way.
Comments
Mes francais n'est pas tres bonne, je veut tu comprendre.
Originally posted by max_naylor
Je voudrais poser un question. Quand on parle dans forums sur l'Internet, est-ce-qu'on devrait utiliser la forme 'vous' ou 'tu'?
Merci beaucoup,
Max
I'd think it'd be "tu."
Originally posted by Powerdoc
Sur les forums frenchies j'emploie tu.
Whew. I've never *really* understood the formal/informal distinction in any of the languages I've learned—mostly because there's really not an equivalent in English except for "Sir" or "Ma'am." Could someone explain how this works? I understand that it's all contextual and cultural and much of it may be unconscious (like gendering of nouns, which we don't have in English in any conscious way), but if you could help a poor *reader* of French out (I can't speak a word), I'd appreciate it.
The equivalent of tu existed in english in the old time (see Sheakspeare texts)
In France when you don't know somebody you say vous (you). This is the polite way to speak to someone else, or to a superior (boss, teacher ...) .
Now if you belong to a community like the Rotary, the LIon's club or your sport club, it's nice to say tu.
To a close friend you'd rather say tu, but in some social class (old school) they say vous. Even some people leaving in the same family say vous. (mère, vous me faites chier, Claude vous me ferez une petite pipe ce soir ...)
Yes even for a french people, the tu and vous thing is nightmarish. For example, one of my grand father was old school and a former high fonctionnary (sous prefet) : I never knew how to speak to him : tu, vous ? That's why I spoke to him, I say sentances starting by on (indifinite form of they)
at work I always say vous to nurse and my secretary, because it make their life simplier. I say vous, thus they say vous. If I say tu, they did not know how to react. As I am the boss, they won't know how to reply : vous, tu ( wich will imply in this case a form of intimacy or friendship). That's why I say vous to nurses and any others members of my hospital and tu at most doctors. But I will not say tu to every doctor, because some of them, would not appreciate this.
So the tu and vous thing, is sometimes nightmarish, but brings also many subtility in the communication
Originally posted by Powerdoc
The equivalent of tu existed in english in the old time (see Sheakspeare texts)
Yes. In English, it's "you/ye" and "thee/thou." You is formal; thee is informal.
Thanks for clearing that up, PD. You've strengthened my belief that 90% of all French conversations are people saying "Wait, wait. Was that plural or singular?"
In India, we sometimes even use the plural personal pronoun to refer to ourselves in the first person to denote superiority. That reminds me of a saying: "Only royalty and fat people have the prerogative of referring to themselves in the plural"
To refer to oneself in the plural already existed in the time of the romans, and is to this day called a 'pluralis majestatis'. I don't think that needs a translation :-).
Originally posted by tilt
Is English the only language where this distinction no longer exists?
The interesting thing about it in English is that we retain big chunks of those old case endings and gendering and formalities but have lost any meaning that might have been associated with them...that's one of the reasons English is such a weird language and there's an exception or 15 to every rule.
Originally posted by SpcMs
It's the same in dutch, except that the formal form is not the plural personal pronoun, but actually the third person singular (at least when it comes to the conjugation(?) of the verb).
To refer to oneself in the plural already existed in the time of the romans, and is to this day called a 'pluralis majestatis'. I don't think that needs a translation :-).
Good french, SpcMS
BTW the pluralis majestis was used by former King Louis XIV aka the Sun god (nothing to do with the pharaon btw) . When he was speaking of him, Louis XIV used il.
For example "il plait au roi de vous accorder audience"
Needless to say that when you employ the pluralis majestis, either you are joking, or either you are totaly megalomaniac
Originally posted by midwinter
The interesting thing about it in English is that we retain big chunks of those old case endings and gendering and formalities but have lost any meaning that might have been associated with them...that's one of the reasons English is such a weird language and there's an exception or 15 to every rule.
Yes there is no gender to name excepting in some case. For example speaking of boats it's she and not it. This alone, let help us understand that GB builded his empire upon it's (her) navy.
I've often thought the gender-orientation of so many languages is weird too. And not just pronouns, but words. I have a friend in France who is the editor of a journal, and she's a l'editrice (I think that's the word) rather than l'editeur. It always sounds to me like she's a mini-editor rather than a real editor. Or maybe a dancing editor.
The trend in the US is to always use the masculine or neutral - women are actors, for example, or chairs rather than chairmen and chairwomen.
Beaucoup des langues européenes, sont on peu bizarre avec 'vous' et 'tu', quelquefois je ne comprends pas! À cet égard, l'anglais est probablement la langue plus facile apprendre. C'est étrange que l'anglais ait tant de peu encore plus de du passé, comme des mots superflus. Aussi, en anglais, il y a environ 20 manières différentes de dire des choses! Quelquefois, c'est embrouillant pour des étrangers!
(D'ailleurs, je suis anglais. Pardon ma français!)
--------
Thank you for the quick replies.
Many of these European languages are quite strange in the sense of 'vous' and 'tu', I just get so confused sometimes! In this respect, English is probably the easier language to grasp. It's strange that English has so many bits left over from the past, words that are now redundant and so on. Also in English there are about 20 different words for different things, which can sometimes be confusing for foreigners I suppose.
Originally posted by max_naylor
Aussi, en anglais, il y a environ 20 mani?res diff?rentes de dire des choses! Quelquefois, c'est embrouillant pour des ?trangers!
Blame the French. And the Germans. But moreso the French. Seriously.
Originally posted by midwinter
Blame the French. And the Germans. But moreso the French. Seriously.
Right : blame the mighty Guillaume who rules england and introduced many french words in the english langage.
Now at the time of computer, internet, chat, it's the reverse.
While I found English quite easy and even pleasant to learn, I was at first confused by having ?you? used both for the singular and the plural, and when saying ?you? I often added the person's name afterwards if meant in the singular.
I found French more difficult and therefore more challenging to learn, as for the use of the formal ?vous?, at first I didn't believe that people actually talked that way.
Originally posted by midwinter
That's why in the South we have "y'all."
I think ?y'all? makes more sense.